Torchwood and Doctor Who...
Jul. 17th, 2007 03:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
fajrdrakoFunny how our fannish reactions change.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
slodwick asked about pairings we liked. Now, any time before "The Last of the Time Lords", I'd have said my favourite pairing in fandom currently was Captain Jack Harkness and the Doctor, no question, no hesitation.But then I found I was having trouble conceptualizing that or writing it. It's as if they... broke my pairing. Destroyed my concept of it. I didn't think that was even possible. No wonder I'm still scrambling to get my post-series-3 bearings.
And everyone else seems to be squeeing about the Master, but he's part of my mixed and troubled reactions. I'm sorting it all out in my head and it's getting easier, but not as it was. I think all I need to do is get a mental handle on it and write a fic that makes it all work for me. Really, that's all.
Meanwhile... I'm still flinching. A little.
Which is why I've refocussed on Torchwood and away from Doctor Who till I get oriented again.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2007-07-17 08:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 01:49 am (UTC)Meanwhile, I really did love the Master, and Martha's heroism, so I shouldn't be complaining!
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 02:26 pm (UTC)Fannish reaction is an instinctual thing. If it happens, it happens. I did always struggle to understand it intellectually, though.
I think there's a little disillusion on Jack's side. He comes all this far to find his personal hero to solve his issues, only to find:
1.The Doctor isn't a hero. (An anti-hero, maybe.) Heroes don't abandon their friends like the Doctor once abandoned Jack. Heroes don't run away from their responsibility.
2.The Doctor has his own issues to solve. Only time can help, perhaps. Jack can do nothing about them. I think he fully realized this when he saw the Doctor crying over the Master's corpse. Crying over the loss of your enemy, now that is a little pathetic.
3.Jack and Martha both learn a lesson from the Doctor: you can be the Doctor in your own world, in your own way. And when you become the Doctor, you don't need him anymore.
So Jack can finally put the Doctor behind, and let the bygone be gone. There's still much affection between them, no doubt, and they have reached an understanding. Jack is also more an equal to the Doctor this round. Maybe Jack'll become a friend whom every incarnation of the Doctor in the new series can count on, and share an adventure(and hopefully a kiss) with every one of them. Mmm, I'd like to see that. However, for now, RTD didn't give us much to chew on. He's too busy shipping Master/Doctor(not that I'm complaining). He's such a shipper! I can see how you meet a dead-end with Doctor/Jack writing. I guess I need some sorting out, too. While Jack's strong enough to afford the disillusion and the reconceptualizing, I don't know about me.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 04:16 pm (UTC)I've never had that happen before. Through a large number of slash pairings, some maintained with some effort of the imagination - but the basic platform was always static. Perhaps the relatively overt nature of this one was part of its vulnerability. Shattered with a blow!
So I fight for recovery of it, because I loved this pairing so very much. Technically, I suppose, it wasn't there, if you separate the Nine/Jack pairing from the Ten/Jack pairing; but Id rather not.
I can see how RTD did it; I'm not sure why. I can guess. I would guess that having decided to make the climactic episode of series 3 feature the Doctor and the Master, he had to play for big emotional stakes, which meant playing up the Doctor's love of the Master. This meant jettisoning the Doctor/Jack relationship - not by rendering it impossible (if that could even be done) but by stripping it of emotional resonance. It isn't the Doctor's indifference or cruelty that touched my reaction, it was Jack's indifference to both. "Never doubted him, never will," still stands; but it stands on a different level. It has a different connotation when it's stripped of emotional emphasis.
Essentially, Jack leaving the Doctor for the sake of his responsibilities to Torchwood and the world is the same scenario as Jack leaving Captain Jack Harkness in "Captain Jack Harkness" for the same reasons. But look at the difference in emotional impact - because "The Last of the Time Lords" was definitely not Jack's story, and Jack's point of view was pretty much left out of it.
And Jack endured a year in chains, it seems, not so much for love of the Doctor - even though he expressed his love in the previous episode! - but because he's a hero.
Mixed messages.
I can rationalize the thing in a number of ways, and no doubt will, but RTD hasn't given me the key. I had thought he loved the Jack/Doctor relationship too, and he did; but he's a fickle god to have playing with our characters, happy to abandon themes on a writer's whim.
Re your points: 1. I don't mind the Doctor being an anti-hero and I don't think Jack had many illusions, though I expect he had hopes. I like the dark side of the Doctor and I think Jack might, or could, or should, take it as a challenge.
Point 2: I was thinking exactly the same thing, and that is what gives me hope in the end. There are two aspects to the end that bother me: one being Jack turning away so casually from the invitation to joining the TARDIS which, from all our previous experience, was his heart's desire. Yes, his responsibility to the people of Earth and to Torchwood is important to him too, but he doesn't have to choose between them: he can spend months or years on the TARDIS, and come back to Torchwood right where he left off.
So he has a reason to leave the TARDIS and that reason can well be that he sees the Doctor needs to recover from the Master's death. Recover, even, from his love of the Master. Perhaps Jack can reason that absence will make the heart grow fonder, that he can't help the Doctor in this, that a strategic retreat is the best policy. I think the Doctor has proved (with regard to Rose) that he has trouble getting over his loss; since obviously Jack and Martha discussed the Doctor together, Jack knows about that. Jack might well feel that hanging about with the Doctor in this particular emotional state will be hard on both of them, and do no good.
continued in next message...
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 09:24 pm (UTC)That's it! That's the heart of the problem. At least for me.
"I had thought he loved the Jack/Doctor relationship too, and he did; but he's a fickle god to have playing with our characters, happy to abandon themes on a writer's whim."
He has abandoned the ship. Saying it, he must be the shippiest TV writer I've ever seen, who always jettisoned one ship for another.
"I like the dark side of the Doctor and I think Jack might, or could, or should, take it as a challenge."
I can see Jack taking the Doctor's dark side as a challenge in 'Utopia'. Or something like that. The radiation room scene is excellent.
"I would guess that having decided to make the climactic episode of series 3 feature the Doctor and the Master, he had to play for big emotional stakes, which meant playing up the Doctor's love of the Master."
"So he has a reason to leave the TARDIS and that reason can well be that he sees the Doctor needs to recover from the Master's death. Recover, even, from his love of the Master."
Not only RTD plays up the Doctor's love of the Master, the Doctor himself plays it up, too. It's much more a Time War issue than an archenemy issue or a childhood friend one. The Doctor wants forgiveness for the double genocide, more than he wants anything, and it's pure irony that now only a professional genocidist can give him that. The Doctor had the emotional illusion that if he can fix the master, he can fix his Time War issues, or even some pre-Time-War issues, like why he ran away from Gallifrey in the first place, since he has known the Master that long. So it's not only about the Master or the loss of the Master. It's about the Time War and the Time Lords, the biggest loss of all, now replayed. Jack is a soldier, a survivor. He understands that the Doctor needs some recovery time and personal space, that he can't help the Doctor in this. Both Martha and Jack chose a strategic retreat. I can even see these two dare each other to say goodbye to the Doctor first...And I guess, after the year which never was, they really need to be with some other people than the Doctor(or in a more normal life) to put the nightmare behind.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-18 10:34 pm (UTC)The antidote I see - the ray of hope - is that we are not getting Jack's point of view in "Last of the Time Lords" at all. We're seeing the face he wants to show, and not even his private face. So what he says and does doesn't necessarily directly reflect what he thinks and feels. He is a con man, and a soldier, whose strategy is often aimed psychologically. We've seen him use even passion as a tactical weapon - I'm thinking here of his threats against Ianto in "Cyberwoman" - which is not to say that his anger was feigned, just to say that he was using for a purpose: to get Ianto to relent.
And Jack has been known to play a long game. We just saw him wait 138 years for the Doctor - not entirely patiently, maybe, but with great determination. I'm sure he can wait longer. As long as it takes.
he must be the shippiest TV writer I've ever seen, who always jettisoned one ship for another.
Absolutely true. Or even when true to the spirit of a ship - I'm thinking of Vince and Stuart here - he puts the characters through a wringer or two.
The radiation room scene is excellent.
Yes, I loved that. The interplay was so nicely set up - then we didn't get a payoff because it was all derailed by the Master.
It's much more a Time War issue than an archenemy issue or a childhood friend one. The Doctor wants forgiveness for the double genocide, more than he wants anything, and it's pure irony that now only a professional genocidist can give him that.
Yes. We aren't presented with an easy psychological game. The Doctor gives forgiveness to the Master because it's what he most wants and can't give himself. Redemption. Jack can't help there because Jack is human and therefore can't participate in the Gallifreyan myth-arc, he can only watch, and maybe take the opportunity to help in certain practical ways - like shooting the whatsit to pieces and resetting the timeline.
So the Doctor's love for the Master is all tied up with his relationship with himself, his own past, and his origins. And a good dollop, I suppose of the 'there but for the grace of god go I', since he too might have gone mad at the sight of the timesteam. In fact, one might argue that he did, since his behaviour is not 'typical Time Lord' and never has been. That brings me to an interesting thought - the Doctor said that some children went mad, some were inspired, and some ran away. He ran away. It implies that other Time Lords ran away - I wonder where they ran, and what happened to them.
can even see these two dare each other to say goodbye to the Doctor first...
My interpretation is that, from beginning to end there, they see each other as allies, not rivals. Two humans in the same situation, who will never doubt the Doctor, who will support him through all, even if he never notices them.
they really need to be with some other people than the Doctor(or in a more normal life) to put the nightmare behind.
After the isolation, I can see that the love of family and friends would be all the more precious and desperately needed. Neither Martha nor Jack cut ties with the Doctor, or blamed him for anything; they just backed off.
no subject
Date: 2007-07-19 09:45 pm (UTC)I agree. We did only see Jack's facade in LotTL. It's like we see the light in someone's window, but not sure if he/she is really up there. And I'm not sure we'll get any Jack's point of view about the events, later in the second series of Torchwood.
"Or even when true to the spirit of a ship - I'm thinking of Vince and Stuart here - he puts the characters through a wringer or two."
'Unrequited love never has to end.' OMG, RTD, tell me you didn't say that.
"So the Doctor's love for the Master is all tied up with his relationship with himself, his own past, and his origins."
Especially so when we think of the tenth Doctor. Ten is very much a narcissist. His relationship with everyone else is also a relationship with himself. It's more so with the master, who IS himself, only in a dark mirror. He seems to love the master so, willing to forgive the Master no matter what he did, it's only because in some ways they are the same person. To love or forgive the Master is to love or forgive himself.
Ten said something about Jack being the only man Jack himself can be happy with. The words are even more right, if Ten is talking about himself. In fact, how much Jack is like Ten is striking. Narcissists are often the people who self-loathe the most. They look at themselves too much in the mirror. It's like Ten projects all his self-love side on the Master, but all his self-loathe side on Jack, because of the whole Time Lord identity thing at the time.
LotTL made me think of Peter Pan again; Well, not about the Tinker Bell. The Master is Captain Hook: he used to be much older than some of the Doctors, with his evil moustache and evil laugh, and now we even have the ticking clock/drumming thing. The Doctor is Peter Pan: though the villain is always defeated at the end of the day, the game never ends. Jack is one of Peter Pan's boys later grown to be Peter Pan himself. But no, there can't be TWO Peter Pans in the Neverland. It's just wrong. And can Peter Pans love each other?
(We agree earlier that the Doctor isn't like Peter Pan because he changes. But he changes very slowly, more slowly than humans, since he has a much longer life span. Just like how slowly Jack is getting old. It's more Peter Pan alike, because of the slowness. The ninth Doctor never strike me as Peter Pan alike, he's much more an adult than Ten ever has been. It may be only a Ten thing.)
"My interpretation is that, from beginning to end there, they see each other as allies, not rivals. Two humans in the same situation, who will never doubt the Doctor, who will support him through all, even if he never notices them."
I can see exactly Martha saying 'never doubted him, never will'. Only after the third series I begin to notice why it's 'him', not 'you'. It wasn't directly dressed to the Doctor, though Jack knew the Doctor could hear him. Unrequited love is something belongs to the one who loves, not the one who is loved. It can have nothing to do with the latter. Also, if it was directly dressed to the Doctor as 'never doubted you, never will', it would have been too intense to bear.
Am I the only one that thinks the Jack/Martha chemistry is better than the Ten/Martha chemistry? I love their first scene together. The New Who companions are often seen jealous of each other, but not these two. I'm glad Martha'll come to the Torchwood. I'd like to see more of their interaction.
Babbling about Jack and the Doctor, part 1
Date: 2007-07-20 02:31 am (UTC)In "Utopia", we had a fair amount of his self-expression with regards to the situation, because he was talking honestly and freely with the Doctor and Martha. By "The Last of the Time Lords", he isn't talking much at all. It's all action. His interior thoughts are totally unexpressed, and his final conversation with the Doctor are of an entirely different tone - he's asking questions, but not making challenges and not revealing anything of himself.
I'm not sure we'll get any Jack's point of view about the events, later in the second series of Torchwood.
I suspect not; I don't think the Doctor will be mentioned. I'd like to be wrong, but don't have expectations of it. On the other hand, Martha's presence might warrant a mention of the Doctor - we shall see.
'Unrequited love never has to end.' OMG, RTD, tell me you didn't say that.
Did he? What's it from?
Ten is very much a narcissist. His relationship with everyone else is also a relationship with himself.
Yes, I agree. It's all echoes and mirrors. His acquaintances become thematic extensions of his own personality. Could it be that Martha expresses his rational side, which is one of the reasons why he can't engulf it or her in love? I like that idea; it explains a lot about his reactions to her. I still believe that he loves her, but has strong reasons for not expressing it. If she represents common sense and the intellect for him - and it would make perfect sense, on a symbolic level - then to return her love would be to destroy what she means to him on that symbolic level.
It's more so with the master, who IS himself, only in a dark mirror.... To love or forgive the Master is to love or forgive himself.
Yes, and loving the Master is a way of dealing with his own guilts and regrets. He probably even feels guilty for loving the Master, which intensifies both the guilt and the love and the irrationality of both. Add to this the Time War baggage, and the "last survivors" pattern - yes, we have the whole dark image thing going on. Even looking at the story of being eight years old and looking into the Time Vortex: the Doctor must think that he could have been the one who went mad, and the Master could have been the one who ran. "There but for the grace of God go I." Echoing selfhood all the way.
Ten said something about Jack being the only man Jack himself can be happy with. The words are even more right, if Ten is talking about himself.
That makes sense. I couldn't track the sense of this when the Doctor said it about Jack, because I think it is totally untrue of Jack. (Not to mention, it's an odd thing to say to someone who has remained devoted to you since you abandoned him 138 years earlier.) The thing about Jack isn't that he can't find happiness with anyone, it's that he can find happiness with practically anyone and everyone. He collects loves the way some people collect postage stamps. He's a classic example of "If you can't have the one you love, then love the one you're with". So he loves easily and often; and his love isn't even superficial or transient. It's bountiful.
how much Jack is like Ten is striking
They have more than big coats in common, though it should be noted that they have big coats in common! Long-lived travellers in space and time, self-appointed saviours with guilt in their past, both struggling with issues of loss and loneliness, both the only ones of their kind (when the Master isn't there).
Re: Babbling about Jack and the Doctor, part 1
Date: 2007-07-20 11:07 pm (UTC)I can't help having some expectation about this one. I also wonder what our Torchwood members' reactions will be to the mention of the Doctor. Will it be as interesting as the mention of Rose in 'Utopia'? Come to think of it, the Doctor('the right kind of Doctor') is Torchwood's series3!Rose (the right kind of companion) *g*
"'Unrequited love never has to end.' OMG, RTD, tell me you didn't say that.
Did he? What's it from?"
Didn't Vince say it in QAF? Or I remember it wrong?
"His acquaintances become thematic extensions of his own personality. Could it be that Martha expresses his rational side, which is one of the reasons why he can't engulf it or her in love? I like that idea."
I love this idea so much. Now all makes sense. Suddenly I'm not that angry with Ten any more.
And the Master is his irrational side. Jack is this wanderer in him, with both the sense of wonder and the loneliness.
"He probably even feels guilty for loving the Master, which intensifies both the guilt and the love and the irrationality of both."
Very true. And the only emotional thing in the finale that rings true to me, is how desperate the Doctor turns out to be. Thanks to Mr Tennant's performance.
"the Doctor must think that he could have been the one who went mad, and the Master could have been the one who ran."
I heard that in the audio plays and the novels about the Master they play with this theme a lot.
"I couldn't track the sense of this when the Doctor said it about Jack, because I think it is totally untrue of Jack. The thing about Jack isn't that he can't find happiness with anyone, it's that he can find happiness with practically anyone and everyone. "
I found the words very odd when I watched the show, too. Jack is like Lestat; given enough time they can fall in love with everyone. Then it made sense when I realized Ten was really thinking/talking about himself. Well, Ten really isn't the most considerate person around. Like the lonely God that he is, he sees his own image in everything and everyone. Ten can't bear being alone, yet he can only be happy with himself. Thus he tried to be with his dark self, the Master. This 'you can only be happy with yourself' thing is another evidence that he projects all his self-loathe side on Jack.
Re: Babbling about Jack and the Doctor, part 1
Date: 2007-07-20 11:19 pm (UTC)And I'm still thinking it through.
I also wonder what our Torchwood members' reactions will be to the mention of the Doctor. Will it be as interesting as the mention of Rose in 'Utopia'?
We'll see! I expect a certain amount of curiosity and jealousy, if so. They were used to having Jack all to themselves.
Didn't Vince say it in QAF? Or I remember it wrong?
It sounds familiar but I can't place it. This may be a good excuse to watch "Queer as Folk" all over again.
I love this idea so much. Now all makes sense. Suddenly I'm not that angry with Ten any more.
Yes, that works for me, too. Ten's way of working things through.
And the Master is his irrational side.
Yes - and therefore attractive, even seductive, almost irresistible - but also dangerous and harmful to him.
Jack is this wanderer in him, with both the sense of wonder and the loneliness.
A nice geometric figure we have here. It like it.
And the only emotional thing in the finale that rings true to me, is how desperate the Doctor turns out to be. Thanks to Mr Tennant's performance.
Oh, yes. He is so very good. Heartbreakingly so.
And yes, I think you are right about him projecting his own problems and feelings on Jack, who is both his doppelganger and his 'other' - I'm not sure what the proper term would be - someone who in the Doctor's mind represents humanity (soemthing different from himself), and himself (because of their echoing similarities) - and maybe that's where the 'sense of wrongness' comes in. He can't reconcile the two opposite forces he sees in Jack, because he can't reconcile his own feelings of alienation and connectedness, or rational/irrational sides, or his self-love and self-hate.
I'm puzzling over the differences that we see in the Doctor between "Smith and Jones" and "The Last of the Time Lords". I see a big difference there, practically a discontinuity. Is it just that the Master has thrown him for a loop emotionally? Or is there something else?
Re: Babbling about Jack and the Doctor, part 1
Date: 2007-07-21 09:17 pm (UTC)I don't understand very well the cluelessness, but I do understand his despair. If there were only one person that can speak my language left in the whole world, I would be very clingy, too. As for the cluelessness, maybe this is the first time he didn't have the moral high ground when facing the Master, not with their roles reversed in the Time War, so this experience is a little strange for him?
"It sounds familiar but I can't place it. This may be a good excuse to watch 'Queer as Folk' all over again."
I believe it's in the last episode. But I'm not sure.
"someone who in the Doctor's mind represents humanity (soemthing different from himself), and himself (because of their echoing similarities) - and maybe that's where the 'sense of wrongness' comes in"
I fully agree with you here. It feels like facing a wrong metaphor in a literary study, when we can't connect two things together. Only in this case it's in the Doctor's study about the universe.
"I'm puzzling over the differences that we see in the Doctor between "Smith and Jones" and "The Last of the Time Lords". I see a big difference there, practically a discontinuity. Is it just that the Master has thrown him for a loop emotionally? Or is there something else?"
I see a big difference, too. It wasn't only about Rose. Even the specialness about Rose as a companion is about the Time War. He couldn't bear the loss of Rose after the loss of Gallifrey. He wouldn't lose Rose to a parallel world if the Time Lords were still around.
The Doctor that we saw in 'Smith and Jones' has already moved on. Yet we see some despair and death wish in the Daleks two-parter, in which the return of the Daleks foreshadowed the return of another old enemy, the Master. In this series they also play with the self-sacrifice theme quite a lot with the Doctor (and on a less degree, with Jack/Face of Boe). And here comes the religious theme. He's ancient. He carries the pain and the loss of the world. He decides the destiny of the different species (we love him because he play favourite, and his favourite is us). The self-sacrifice/forgiveness (The New Testament) and the cruelty on enemies (The Old Testament) are two sides of the same coin. However, the Doctor don't really want to be a lonely God. He doesn't trust himself on being one. He wasn't one when other Time Lords were around. Even Nine wasn't. (Maybe it's something about the absorbing of the Time Vortex?) He isn't happy about it, but he has got the responsibility. And certainly the trauma of John Smith didn't help him.
I don't know what I'm saying any more...well, Ten has his issues all along, the Master was just good at pushing the right buttons. In the end, the Doctor seemed almost happy, ready to give up the lonely God part to be the doctor of only one patient, the Master. Anyone is worth saving in the eyes of a doctor.
The Doctor: Transformation or Stasis?
Date: 2007-07-23 02:56 pm (UTC)I agree. Perhaps it's that the script condensed too much, or skipped over too much, of his personal reactions adn feelings? Or motives?
maybe this is the first time he didn't have the moral high ground when facing the Master, not with their roles reversed in the Time War, so this experience is a little strange for him?
Yes. In all the time since the Time War, he has lived with his guilt, but has never been answerable to anyone. So when the Master asks him about it... and says what he says about it... I can see that hitting the Doctor on a deep level. Especially since the Master had been resurrected as a sort of secret weapon against the Daleks and then he'd run. Running is the Doctor's job. It just does more to twist their lives and psyches together.
It wasn't only about Rose. Even the specialness about Rose as a companion is about the Time War. He couldn't bear the loss of Rose after the loss of Gallifrey.
She is almost certainly his only personal connection after the Time War. She is a sort of gateway to humanity - knowing her, he is free to feel connection to other people - Jack, Sarah Jane, Reinette, even Mickey, and casual acquaintances too. But somewhere in series 3 that connection gets broken or turned around. (There I am, talking about things 'being broken' again.) By "The Sound of Drums", the Doctor has the choice to save humanity at the cost of one he loves (the Master, in this case) - and he opts to save the Master at the expense of Earth, which gets restored becasue of his long-term plan - though still involving the choice he never really gets to make, because the Master dies. Short term, anyway. Dies as far as the Doctor is concerned.
In fact, it seems the only things that are not fully restored are his relationships with Jack and Martha.
Hmm. The implication could be "end of an era" or it could be "ongoing story".
The Doctor that we saw in 'Smith and Jones' has already moved on.
So he had. He hadn't forgotten Rose or the Time War, but he was carrying on with life just fine. I was therefore slightly at a loss as to how and where the suicidal impulses appeared in "Daleks in Manhattan" and why the idea of the Doctor being suicidal had so little impact on story or theme. It was sort of ... glossed over.
The self-sacrifice/forgiveness (The New Testament) and the cruelty on enemies (The Old Testament) are two sides of the same coin.
Yes. I like both aspects. At least... I like them when I can figure them out.
the Doctor don't really want to be a lonely God. He doesn't trust himself on being one. He wasn't one when other Time Lords were around. Even Nine wasn't. (Maybe it's something about the absorbing of the Time Vortex?)
The Time Vortex istself is really the lonely god? I like that idea!
He isn't happy about it, but he has got the responsibility. And certainly the trauma of John Smith didn't help him.
John Smith would be a bit of an escape. No wonder he was panicking at the idea of becoming the Doctor again.
Ten has his issues all along, the Master was just good at pushing the right buttons.
And because of those issues (guilt, loneliness, nostalgia) Ten was particularly ready to be tweaked. If he thought he was getting a bit of Gallifrey back... well, it was irrational, but the Doctor has skirted irrationality for a long time.
In the end, the Doctor seemed almost happy, ready to give up the lonely God part to be the doctor of only one patient, the Master. Anyone is worth saving in the eyes of a doctor.
In a way it's a pity that TLOTTL was the end of the series because it left us hanging and it left the situation at the end of that episode look much more static and permanent than it actually may be. I'm trying to readjust to seeing it as part of an ongoing continuum.
Not quite succeeding, but getting there.
My thoughts on Martha/Doctor and Jack/Doctor have taken better shape - in terms of understanding the story structure - but I'm still working on sorting it.
Re: The Doctor: Transformation or Stasis?
Date: 2007-07-27 12:19 am (UTC)"In fact, it seems the only things that are not fully restored are his relationships with Jack and Martha."
Donna says Ten needs someone to stop him. During the third series, Ten may hope that 'someone' is Martha. Rose in the second series tends to disagree with the Doctor less and less. Maybe Ten is afraid Martha would become like this once their love is mutual?
If he can't love Martha back is because Martha is his rational side, then maybe he punishes Jack by destroying his vortex manipulator is because he wants to punish himself, to punish this eternal wanderer in his heart. He knows it's time to change. To change some of his old ways. Without the Time Lord society, he has nothing to rebel against. And his 'I don't do domestic' attitude doesn't make his human companions(Rose, Sarah Jane) very happy. He'd like to change, but he doesn't know how to stop. The punishment upon Jack is also a self-punishment.
And the Master is his dark and irrational side waken by the Time War. So he tries to become reconciled and coexist with it.
"Hmm. The implication could be 'end of an era' or it could be 'ongoing story'. "
"In a way it's a pity that TLOTTL was the end of the series because it left us hanging and it left the situation at the end of that episode look much more static and permanent than it actually may be. I'm trying to readjust to seeing it as part of an ongoing continuum."
I agree. That's the problem. We don't know the big picture. And maybe something will even get retconned in the next series...
Re: The Doctor: Transformation or Stasis? (1)
Date: 2007-07-27 01:00 pm (UTC)I am not sure how much I believe her. Partly it's that I think she doesn't understand the Doctor in the least - she's not the sharpest tack in the toolbox, and if she's had a moment of insight, it's probably a fluke. But as spokesperson for Russell T. Davies, well... There's the implication that we are supposed to believe her. And certainly not all the Doctor's ideas are good, and sometimes he's dangerous, and he knows it. He is painfully aware at times of his own fallibility.
But can anyone - should anyone - actually control him? He has reasonably good values and judgement, or at least, has chosen well so far whenever faced with a crisis. (Sometiems by luck.) He works best, it seems, in tandem with a human he likes. It makes me wonder, in fact, what would happen if his mad scheme had worked out, if he and the Master had gone off into the space-time continuum together - could he (as I think he hoped) have restored the Master to sanity? Or would the Master have driven him crazy?
During the third series, Ten may hope that 'someone' is Martha. Rose in the second series tends to disagree with the Doctor less and less. Maybe Ten is afraid Martha would become like this once their love is mutual?
Maybe. He might fear that his influence on her would be so great that her influence on him - the steadying, humanistic balance he's looking for, if that's what it is - would be erased.
My interpretation is that he's still hurting because of Rose, not just her loss becasue he misses her (which is bad enough) but because he knows she's living a future that isn't what she wanted, that her heart was broken on being forced to leave him. He doesn't want to break Martha's heart that way - much better to let her think he's oblivious to her love, and that he's simply clueless. Because if she knew he loved her, it would be harder for both of them.
Re: The Doctor: Transformation or Stasis? (2)
Date: 2007-07-27 01:01 pm (UTC)That make perfect sense to me. Just as it makes sense that controlling Jack is a way of controlling parts of himself. (Including libido.) I argued that it's a way of keeping Jack where he can find him - and it is - but it's also a way of keeping himself away from Jack, since he knows where Jack is and he can avoid him - cutting himself off from those aspects of life or himself that he wants to deny himself, or fears, or resents.
And the Master is his dark and irrational side waken by the Time War. So he tries to become reconciled and coexist with it.
One of my favourite moments in the whole Master trilogy - and forgive me that I can't directly quote - is when the Master is asking the Doctor about the destruction of Gallifrey, and says how maginficent it must have been to have all that power, destroying two great civilizations. I think the Doctor is afraid of that side of himself, too - the decision-making that effects multitudes and that changes the future. The satisfaction in winning has to be balanced by a certianty of being 'right' in all circumstances, and that's an intimidating prospect - conceputally untenable. We've seen the Doctor having trouble with this on various occasions - "The Parting of the Ways" may be the most significant, but there have been lots of such occasions.
So with the Master he had to deal with the irrational and immoral side of himself, and (literally) embrace it. With the loss of the Master he's thrown back on the old self with the old self-correcting aids who keep him balanced, his Companions. It strikes me as interesting here - and I'll have to think through the implications - that though they both love him still at the end of "The Last of the Time Lords" (and make it clear) they both leave him - their choices, not his. Put aside the idea that this is convenient for Russell T. Davies and the plots they have coming up - it puts the Doctor in another frame of mind, a clear start, a chance to recover his own emotional equilibrium without the past loves/influences of whatever Martha, Jack and the Master represent. Which, I would guess, is as follows:
Martha - reason (concern for others?)
the Master - irrationality (ego?)
Jack - emotion (heroism?)
maybe something will even get retconned in the next series...
There's an intriguing degree of unpredictability.
Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-20 02:31 am (UTC)Very true.
The Doctor is Peter Pan: though the villain is always defeated at the end of the day, the game never ends.
I really can't see the Doctor as Peter Pan. Peter Pan is the eternal boy who can't grow up and who is looking for his mother - he'll never have any kind of coming-of-age experience. The Doctor's flaw is not immaturity or innocence. If anything he is world-weary and over-experienced, suffering from guilt and loss. Not eternally young, but ageless. Peter Pan can't even understand guilt, and is incapable of it. Perhaps you could explain the Peter Pan thing a little more? Because as it stands, I don't see it at all.
In terms of archetypes I see the Doctor as the Wise Fool, seeing truths the rest of the universe can't see. And the Wise Fool is a variant of the Trickster God, and that works with the paradigm too.
Jack is one of Peter Pan's boys later grown to be Peter Pan himself. But no, there can't be TWO Peter Pans in the Neverland. It's just wrong.
Well, no, but I can't see Jack as a Peter Pan either. How could Peter Pan ever be a symbol of omnisexual experience? The whole growth-into-maturity experience Jack had when he saw his friend tortured to death puts him out of the Peter Pan eternal-childhood pattern. By the same token he can't be a Lost Boy, because they're also looking for their mothers. I think I'd pick Odysseus as my literary prototype for Jack:
I cannot rest from travel; I will drink
Life to the lees. All times I have enjoy'd
Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone.
- Including the sense of exile from his home, where his heart really lies, that being the TARDIS.
I can't comment on whether Nine or Ten is more like Peter Pan, because I don't think either of them is. I think Nine is also the Wise Fool. I wonder if I can think of a literary symbol that distinguishes between them, rather than equalizing them. Hmm.
I can see exactly Martha saying 'never doubted him, never will'.
Oh yes. She never says exactly those words, but it's the gist of what she says in her speeches to the people of Earth in "The Last of the Time Lords", about what everyone owes to him and how he'll come through.
It wasn't directly addressed to the Doctor, though Jack knew the Doctor could hear him.
Good point. It was a statement of faith and intent - but in reference to Jack alone, without laying reciprocity of any kind on the Doctor, who, in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack.
if it was directly dressed to the Doctor as 'never doubted you, never will', it would have been too intense to bear.
And would have brought it to a personal level, which has a totally different set of implications. Jacks sense of faith is personally and intensely directed at the Doctor. The Doctor's faith is in humanity as a whole. Jack may be a symbol of humanity in many ways, but the Doctor never makes the transition to express faith in Jack himself. In fact, he pretty much takes it for granted that Jack will die for him in "The Parting of the Ways", and that he will suffer for him in "The Last of the Time Lords". And rightly so.
I the only one that thinks the Jack/Martha chemistry is better than the Ten/Martha chemistry?
I wouldn't say 'better', but I would agree that it's wonderful. Just... different. Delightful.
The New Who companions are often seen jealous of each other, but not these two.
I can't think of any time Jack has ever shown any jealousy of anyone. I think he's perfectly happy to share whatever love he feels or receives.
Yes, I also look forward to seeing Martha in Torchwood. I'm very curious about what kind of story it will be.
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-21 01:39 am (UTC)I wouldn't say 'better', but I would agree that it's wonderful. Just... different. Delightful."
Delightful. That's the right word for it:)
"It was a statement of faith and intent - but in reference to Jack alone, without laying reciprocity of any kind on the Doctor, who, in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack."
This absolute trust and obedience is also a very military thing. Nine is more military than Ten. And Doctor/Jack always has a military side (the goodbye scene in LotTL).
"Perhaps you could explain the Peter Pan thing a little more? Because as it stands, I don't see it at all."
I'm afraid I can't find the words to explain this one well. The Doctor(s) is/are always a little childish inside. I do think that Nine has changed after the Time War, that he learns to lay down his guilt. He seems to be the most adult of them all. But with Ten I'm not so sure. In my eyes, after two series, he never really learns from his experiences. Also he is always the centre of the world. He talks about 'companions wither and die'. Sarah Jane kinda felt bitter, like a grown up Wendy. As for the 'gay, innocent, heartless', I admit that even Ten(who is more chipper, more immature and more nasty than Nine) doesn't quite fit. The Old Who Doctors before the loss of the Great Time War sometimes seem more like Peter Pan to me, since they're more constant, with less angst. But then they also have this world-weary air about them. (I really don't explain myself well, do I? Doctor Who is a kids' show also watched by us adults, which makes the symbol multi-layered. The Doctor's never-ending adventures can be seen as 'to play forever' (as in Neverland), while the Torchwood adventure is seen more as 'work' than 'play'. The TARDIS adventures can also be as dangerous as in Neverland. Anyway, I only think the Peter Pan feel is one of the aspects of the Doctor's personality. The Doctor is world-weary and childish, innocent and guilty, playful and serious, all at the same time. That's the appeal:)
The Wise Fool metaphor is very apt.
"Well, no, but I can't see Jack as a Peter Pan either. How could Peter Pan ever be a symbol of omnisexual experience?"
I'm wrong. Utterly. How can I forget the sexual side? Now I'd like to say Jack has outgrown the Doctor(in the case of Ten) so 'to play forever' isn't Jack's favourite game any more. He chooses to return to our everyday, hard-working world to make it better(with his awesome *g*). It may be the same story with Martha, too. It's Wendy and the other kids who have to leave Peter Pan, not the other way round.
And the Odysseus poem brought tears to my eyes...
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-21 02:01 am (UTC)Doctor/Jack always has a military side (the goodbye scene in LotTL).
Yes - the Doctor even deliberately assumes a "commanding officer" role in "Boom Town", which is a very cute moment, and unusual for him.
Interesting "Peter Pan" comments, which I will consider. Perhaps my lack of understanding is because I haven't seen the Doctors previous to Nine. I can see that he is... that the Doctor has playful aspects that we don't usually associate with adults, and in some ways he is oddly socialized in ways we associate more with children - being honest to the point of rudeness, for example. But I have trouble seeing the Doctor as either childish or immature, or having the attitude to life that Peter Pan has. He's colossally mature when he wants to be. Perhaps it is all the effect of his being whimsical, and his sense of glee in situations where most human adults would think it inappropriate? (When in danger, for example. Or when faced with an alien werewolf.)
The wonderful thing about it all is that whether he is Peter Pan or not, whether he has fallen too far to the dark/twisted side of his personality, or whether he is simply changeable, he has this wonderful multifaceted personality that is very strong and vivid and loveable (usually) and in some ways unlike anything else in literature. Endlessly fun to study and analyze.
Yes, I like the Wise Fool metaphor. I'm going to think about it and see if I can write something coherent about it. Or not. Or just incorporate it as a theme in fiction. Right now I mostly want to write tender or passionate Ten/Jack scenes to comfort myself about their mutual love!
the Odysseus poem brought tears to my eyes...
It's maybe my favourite poem of all time, and Odysseus in it is one of my favourite examples of a hero. I love it that I can apply that same poem to Jack.
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-27 02:11 am (UTC)Maybe the Doctor's personality comes from the old Victorian bachelor/traveller archtype in British literature? Slightly childlike, very whimsical, yet sometimes deadly serious, with a little touch of darkness, but always a gentleman, with his strange tastes, strange habits, twisted sense of humor and platonic loves.
Only a thought.
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-27 12:21 pm (UTC)It's a safe bet that Russell T. Davies would be familiar with the type. And you may have picked up on something more central here: that of all heroes in television today, or probably any other medium, the Doctor's roots are not just in the present day, or the 20th century, or any particular time. He takes aspects from all ages and branches of culture. This helps to make him elusive and intriguing, and convincing as a time traveller. He doesn't fit in as a classic hero of our time (though he liked being compared to James Bond!) - or specifically of any given time - but he fits to a degree as a hero of any time. Which helps to make him seem timeless.
He certainly fits the Victorian archetype you describe, and wouldn't it be incredibly easy to imagine him in the pages of Dickens? But he would also fit into a Fielding novel, or Shakespeare, or Chaucer - well, who wouldn't? - or Aeschylus or - well, the writers of any era, especially if they span both the dark/serious and the light/comic.
Now I'm trying to picture the Doctor walking into a scene from Beowulf. Or Jane Austen - well, he might be one of the rather eccentric friends of her heroes, and the heroine's flighty sister might have a crush on him that would come to nothing.
Now I'm feeling the urge to write historically-minded crossover fic. Hmmph.
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-08-24 12:52 am (UTC)Well, Russell T. Davies didn't invent the character. I agree wholeheartedly with you on the rest.
And the Wise Fool exists in so many different cultures, while Peter Pan does not.
"He doesn't fit in as a classic hero of our time (though he liked being compared to James Bond!)"
The third Doctor is very James Bond. His stories kinda begin to blur in your memories when you've watched many of them...They all have good bits, though.
"Now I'm feeling the urge to write historically-minded crossover fic."
You so SHOULD write it. Even a drabble is good. Doctor Who and the Doctor are made for crossovers! Especially in the realm of English literature...
Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-08-24 02:31 pm (UTC)No, but he's the one currently pulling the strings. I can't comment on the intentions of the previous writers because I haven't seen the old episodes.
I see the Doctor as the Wise Fool; I see Peter Pan as a sort of opposite achetype - Innocent Fool, maybe, though that phrase doesn't exactly capture it. Young Seeker, perhaps.
I do plan to do a historical story. Or two. As soon as I find the time. After all, I promised
Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-18 04:16 pm (UTC)3.Jack and Martha both learn a lesson from the Doctor: you can be the Doctor in your own world, in your own way. And when you become the Doctor, you don't need him anymore.
I think throughout series 1 Torchwood it is clear that Jack was trying to become the Doctor; or trying to be the best Captain Jack that he could be, in the Doctor's image. This still stands. Making himself worthy of the Doctor in every way he can, not out of dependency or to prove himself, but out of... self-respect, perhaps?
I think he was trying to prove himself to the Doctor, back in Doctor Who series 1, and probably in Torchwood series 1 too. I think this shows him growing a little beyond that. He didn't get the approval I think he deserves from the Doctor - maybe never will, maybe never should, but I'd like to see it. (Might write it. Would like to. I would settle for so little: a thank-you kiss would make all the difference!)
So Jack can finally put the Doctor behind, and let the bygone be gone.
The thing is: I hope he doesn't. Even though it appears he has, at least in some ways. Perhaps this is the crux of what I still have to reconcile. There are reasons to hope:
(1) Everything changes.
(2) We know of the great affection that existed, and always will exist, between the Doctor and the Face of Boe.
(3) I still believe that the basic emotional nature of both Jack and the Doctor is consistency and growth, not ephemerality and loss, however they might struggle to leave the past behind. Many things in the "Last of the Time Lords" story arc emphasize this: the Doctor still loves Gallifrey, he still loves the Master who was his childhood friend, however damaged; he still loves Rose. Jack equally remembers past lovers and friends (examples abound; Estelle and the boy he went to war with are among my favourites.)
Maybe Jack'll become a friend whom every incarnation of the Doctor in the new series can count on, and share an adventure(and hopefully a kiss) with every one of them. Mmm, I'd like to see that.
Oh, yes! Very good thought.
for now, RTD didn't give us much to chew on.
No. I expect he wanted to free things up for Torchwood. Series 1 had Jack pining for the Doctor, and though his love of Captain Jack Harkness was a lovely counterpoint, it wasn't a dose of happiness in contrast. Perhaps RTD felt that alleviating or removing Jack's preoccupation with the Doctor would free things up for him to interact more fully (or more sexually) with characters in Torchwood.
Thanks for listening; talking this through helps a lot. I'm sure I'll have more to say when I've considered this a little more.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-18 10:01 pm (UTC)Good point. I forgot this one.
"I would settle for so little: a thank-you kiss would make all the difference!"
Exactly my thoughts!
"I still believe that the basic emotional nature of both Jack and the Doctor is consistency and growth, not ephemerality and loss, however they might struggle to leave the past behind."
Well, I believe love isn't something that one can grow out of. One can grow out of passion, but not love, not affection. Love is the phoenix reborning in the fire which has formerly destroyed it, time after time. (Isn't that also the image of a Time Lord's regeneration?) At least I hope so:)
"Perhaps RTD felt that alleviating or removing Jack's preoccupation with the Doctor would free things up for him to interact more fully (or more sexually) with characters in Torchwood."
That's possible. I still miss the Jack/Jack pairing: dance, soulmate, old-fashioned romance, that kind of thing. Also Jack/Ianto fangirls must have been very satisfied with the emotional side of the DW finale. I wonder what flavors we'll get for the second series.
"Thanks for listening; talking this through helps a lot."
You're welcome:) This conversation helps me a lot, too.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-18 11:36 pm (UTC)I believe love isn't something that one can grow out of.
No, and I see no reason to think either Jack nor the Doctor has done so. Jack has loved him without any contact for 138 years. Another ray of hope for me comes from one of the things that bothered me: the Doctor made Jack's time manipulator inoperable, effectively trapping Jack in our present. This upset me: it as as if the Doctor was (a) assuming an unwarranted authority over Jack's life and implying that Jack shouldn't have such technology, and that he had the right to take it away from him; and (b) punishing him for his loyalty, his support, and his suffering on the Doctor's behalf.
On thinking about it, I thought: how else could the Doctor make sure he could find Jack whenever he wanted? Which in turn implies that he knows he will want to find him again. Which implies that he really doesn't want to lose him.
Seen like that, it seemed like a piece of strategy, or a move in a game, or a particularly ambivalent trick in a very complicated courtship. ("We may be no good to each other now, but I'm not letting you get away from me, and I'll come back for you when I'm ready.")
This too holds future promise. It's twisted, but I can like it on that basis.
I still miss the Jack/Jack pairing: dance, soulmate, old-fashioned romance, that kind of thing.
Jack does it so well. I also loved Jack's con-man seduction of Rose: far more complex than it at first seemed. The beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Jack/Ianto fangirls must have been very satisfied with the emotional side of the DW finale.
Oh, yes. That hurt at first but on reflection, it's rather nice, too. Perhaps now the Torchwood writers won't back off from it so much. It will be less of an enigma. Perhaps the previous reticence was because we were still only too often in Gwen's point of view, and Gwen knew nothing about their affair and (I assume) knows virtually nothing about Ianto himself; but they did give us that glimpse of the opening moves in their relationship, the stopwatch scene; I hope this is the door to more revelations.
But if the odds and ends of spoilers I've heard mean anything, they have other complications in mind for Jack, too.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-19 09:43 pm (UTC)It's very, very ambiguous. RTD tried to put too many things together in the finale. He wanted to give both Martha and Jack a closure, while the biggest closure belongs to the Master. It turns out to be an emotional mess. There's nothing to be sure of.
"Another ray of hope for me comes from one of the things that bothered me: the Doctor made Jack's time manipulator inoperable, effectively trapping Jack in our present."
I still don't know how to think about this one. If I'm Jack, I guess I won't appreciate it much, though I'm certain the Doctor has rights to pull this one. However, it didn't seem to bother Jack. So I think your interpretation is the right one. OMG, they ARE twisted. Does love mean 'imprison someone, don't let him/her escape from me' in the Time Lord culture? If we can judge by the behaviours of the tenth Doctor and the Master, I guess the answer is 'yes'.
Well, I don't think RTD have ever been thinking this much. He only wanted to find a way to make sure Torchwood Three's stories would be tied to the 21st Century Earth.
"I also loved Jack's con-man seduction of Rose: far more complex than it at first seemed. The beginning of a beautiful friendship."
Conclusion: an ideal Jack romance should be smooth as velvet. It should always involve nostalgia: some old music, some period military, and some beautiful (or beautifully twisted) friendship.
"But if the odds and ends of spoilers I've heard mean anything, they have other complications in mind for Jack, too."
You mean the casting spoiler? ;)
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 02:11 pm (UTC)Hence no closure at all, anywhere. Not even with the Master, because of the ring at the end. (And who ever believes the major archenemy in any series is permanently dead?)
If I'm Jack, I guess I won't appreciate it much, though I'm certain the Doctor has rights to pull this one.
Why do you think he had the right? I'd have said the Doctor didn't have the right to curtail Jack's movements - Jack's power to travel in time didn't come from the Doctor (except insofar as the Doctor repaired his broken equipment) and Jack was a time traveller long before the Doctor met him. I can't see that the Doctor had a right to judge Jack at that point, in terms of his activities - Jack has just helped to save the world. He treated Jack like a mischicvous child. It looks like bullying to me!
Come to think of it, I'm not sure which of them would be the mischievous child. Hmm.
That being said, I don't think Jack particularly minds what the Doctor did - it imprisons him, yes (as if he needed more of that!) but it imprisons him pretty much when and where he wants to be, and doesn't rule out change to the situation. Aside from that, I think Jack would agree to anything the Doctor wanted, however unreasonable, just because the Doctor wanted it. If he has just endured a year of bondage thanks to the Master, he can endure a different kind of containment thanks to the Doctor. And the year of bondage with the Master was, essentially, the Doctor's choice, which Jack endured for the Doctor's sake. Given his choice, he would have killed the Master long before it came to that. So Jack's suffering was all essentially for the sake of the Doctor's love of the Master.
OMG, they ARE twisted.
Yes.
Does love mean 'imprison someone, don't let him/her escape from me' in the Time Lord culture? If we can judge by the behaviours of the tenth Doctor and the Master, I guess the answer is 'yes'.
Yes. I can't think of any way around that.
He only wanted to find a way to make sure Torchwood Three's stories would be tied to the 21st Century Earth.
Yes, and of course RTD has the power to change it around at any time any way he likes. He wants time travel for Jack? Bring back the Doctor to wave the sonic screwdriver, or have Jack figure out a way to fix the vortex manipulator, or open the Rift, or have another Time Agent come by, or - whatever! Easy for him.
And I personally would love to see Jack do more time travelling. Let's see him meet Shakespeare and Brannigan and Tim Latimer.
Conclusion: an ideal Jack romance should be smooth as velvet. It should always involve nostalgia: some old music, some period military, and some beautiful (or beautifully twisted) friendship.
I'm happy with that! Think of the three significant relationships we've seen in Jack's life (not counting the Doctor) - Rose, Estelle, and Captain Jack Harkness. All happened during World War II, all involved dancing.
You mean the casting spoiler? ;)
I do mean the casting spoiler.
OMG, they ARE twisted.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 06:12 pm (UTC)I hate RTD for even trying to convince us New Schoolers that it was a closure.
"I'd have said the Doctor didn't have the right to curtail Jack's movements - Jack's power to travel in time didn't come from the Doctor (except insofar as the Doctor repaired his broken equipment) and Jack was a time traveller long before the Doctor met him."
Since it's the Doctor repaired the broken equipment, he had the right to take the power back. However, this definitely couldn't justify the Doctor's behaviour in any way. When I first saw it, I couldn't believe my eyes. I don't know why, I just can't picture Nine doing this in my head.
"Come to think of it, I'm not sure which of them would be the mischievous child."
Ten looks very much like a teenager to me. Now Jack is the adult of the pair.
"If he has just endured a year of bondage thanks to the Master, he can endure a different kind of containment thanks to the Doctor."
The Time Lords are kinky bastards. Now I wonder if they understand love outside the bondage, or if it's only a thing with Ten and Simm!Master. Come to think of it, I can picture Jack with anyone, in any pairing, but not with Saxon.
"So Jack's suffering was all essentially for the sake of the Doctor's love of the Master."
This is a little too much to endure, don't you think? Asking anyone to pay that high a price, his/her love will eventually break off, given enough time. You know, sometimes I simply can't take LotTL seriously. They didn't really go there like people in BSG. They just skipped it. After one year of nightmare, I expect Jack and Martha would at least change somehow. They didn't. It's both an emotional mess and an emotional blank. I don't expect emotinal truth in TV land, but this is too much a cop-out.
"And I personally would love to see Jack do more time travelling. Let's see him meet Shakespeare and Brannigan and Tim Latimer."
Me too! Shakespeare would have great fun with him. Oh the hotness. I don't think Jack/JB is a cat person, though.
"I do mean the casting spoiler."
I'd like to see what comes out of it.
"OMG, they ARE twisted."
You bet they are! *sigh*
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 06:39 pm (UTC)Yes - very bad move, conceptually. Total failure on all counts.
I couldn't believe my eyes. I don't know why, I just can't picture Nine doing this in my head.
Me too. The funny thing is, it was in "Utopia" (and no doubt because of Jack) that I saw Nine and Ten as the same person for the first time. But "The Last of the Time Lords" polarized them. I see Ten as being more crazy, more arbitrary, more reckless.
Jack does seem more adult than Ten, but Ten still has ageless-wisdom/experience aspects.... An interesting juxtaposition!
I can picture Jack with anyone, in any pairing, but not with Saxon.
I can't imagine Jack willingly having sex with Saxon under any circumstances, which, given Jack's usual nature, is rather amazing.
sometimes I simply can't take LotTL seriously. They didn't really go there like people in BSG. They just skipped it.
The problem is that the story does make sense. It particularly doesn't make psychological sense. Even when we parse it into symbolic sense it doesn't add up. And I thought the writing in new Doctor Who till that point was so good - sometimes fell a little flat, but "The Last of the Time Lords" isn't flat at all, it's chaotic.
The Time Lords are kinky bastards. Now I wonder if they understand love outside the bondage
I don't see bondage connotations in the Nine/Rose relationship, or Nine/Jack, or Ten/Rose, or even Ten/Martha, as he keeps trying to let her go. But obviously that's not the whole story... Perhaps accumulated guilts, the situation with Master, pushed Ten psychologically beyond his normal range.
It's both an emotional mess and an emotional blank. I don't expect emotional truth in TV land, but this is too much a cop-out.
A situation too extreme to just re-set and carry on, at least without more explanation than we got. Yes, BSG handled it well, including the twisted relationship of Starbuck and Lee Adama - where I can see parallels if you cast Leoban as the Master, Starbuck as the Doctor, and Lee as Jack. (And Anders as, um, Martha? Ianto? My analogy is breaking down.)
I don't think Jack is a cat person either, but it'd be fun to see the interaction.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 10:01 pm (UTC)Guess that's why now I'm not very interested in Master/Jack fics set in the year which never was, because it would be only violence, not sex. How do I come to this? I had imagined Jack in Master's dungeon even before the Master arrived *g* Maybe I'm not as evil as I thought I was?
And the two actors' chemistry is all wrong. Given Jack's usually wonderful chemistry with everyone else and Simm!Master's very good chemistry with both Ten and Lucy Saxon, it is rather amazing.
"It particularly doesn't make psychological sense."
That's it. With this whole unrequited love thing, they really wrote all the characters into a dead-end, so every character had to back off, at least for a while.
"I don't see bondage connotations in the Nine/Rose relationship, or Nine/Jack, or Ten/Rose, or even Ten/Martha, as he keeps trying to let her go."
No, I don't see, either. It's only a Time Lord/Time Lord thing, then. Maybe Jack applies to this rule because he's...immortal, hence more equal to a Time Lord?
"BSG handled it well, including the twisted relationship of Starbuck and Lee Adama - where I can see parallels if you cast Leoban as the Master, Starbuck as the Doctor, and Lee as Jack. (And Anders as, um, Martha? Ianto? My analogy is breaking down.)"
Yes, I can see the parallels with BSG, with Leoban/Starbuck as Master/Doctor, Jack as Lee and Martha as Anders.
"I don't think Jack is a cat person either, but it'd be fun to see the interaction."
I bet Brannigan likes Jack as much as he finds Jack annoying.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 10:46 pm (UTC)That's part of my problem. The other half is: I don't find the Master all that attractive. Most of fandom seems enchanted with the Master, and I'm not. He's interesting, he has some good lines, but I don't find him very sexy. So... there's nothing there for me to focus.
I had imagined Jack in Master's dungeon even before the Master arrived *g*
Yes. Regrouping, I guess.
It's only a Time Lord/Time Lord thing, then. Maybe Jack applies to this rule because he's...immortal, hence more equal to a Time Lord?
Maybe. Or maybe we have some bit of information missing. Something Ten knows that we don't.
I bet Brannigan likes Jack as much as he finds Jack annoying.
I think his wife would like Jack but he'd find Jack annoying and Jack would give him a hard time.
For me, it would have been easier then!
Maybe I'm not as evil as I thought I was?
Oh, surely that can't be the case!
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-21 12:03 am (UTC)I can only say: in our time, evil=hot.
I hate times like this, it's like I'm being left cold by the whole fandom. I used to find Ianto as a character not that fascinating, too. I think he was very, very cute and I'd like to read some fics about him, or about him and Jack, but certainly not to find every one of the fics is about him.
John Simm certainly isn't physically attractive. To find Simm!Master unattractive is perfectly understandable. (Am I the only one who thinks Mr Simm looks like Tintin?) And the writing of the Master is rather silly. He did turn out to have very good chemistry with David Tennant, though. I'd never thought that. Nice surprise.
I've been watching Steve Moffat's 'Jekyll' recently and simply loathe James Nesbitt in it. Then I happened to rewatch DW with a friend, from 'Utopia' to LotTL. Having seen Nesbitt's Jekyll/Hyde, this time I not only think Sir Derek Jacobi is a God, but also find the Simm!Master a whole lot better. When I finished 'Jekyll', I may even find Simm!Master as charismatic as some people said. Who knows.
Well, since I'm doomed to be among the minority, at least this time I can comfort myself that Sam Tyler(John Simm) in 'Life on Mars' cries far better than Ianto in 'Cyberwoman'...
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-21 01:25 am (UTC)To some extent, I can relate to that - thinking of my reactions to seeing pictures of Christopher Eccleston as the Black Rider in "The Dark is Rising". But that's because it's Christopher Eccleston.... Yeah. The Master struck me as interesting but not hot. Not even when the Doctor was holding him - though the Doctor was hot, for sure!
I have similar reactions to Ianto as you do, not because I don't like the character, I do; but because we don't know enough about him, and because the fics tend to have nowhere to go - they strike me as being usually either bland or out of character. I hope they add to the complexity in Torchwood series 2. I find the other Jack sexier and more interesting because of the way he was portrayed, but the situation leaves very little room for fic or speculation: what we saw is what we get. Jack/Doctor was my standby.
(Am I the only one who thinks Mr Simm looks like Tintin?)
I'd never thought of that!
the writing of the Master is rather silly.
Which is why he reminds me of The Joker in Batman - and I don't find the Joker sexy, either! Truth to tell, I don't even find the Master very evil, because he isn't cunning or complex, he's just wilful and crazy - he does whatever he wants and has no conscience.
I've been watching Steve Moffat's 'Jekyll' recently and simply loathe James Nesbitt in it.
I saw James Nesbitt in something (I forget which) and didn't like him at all. I was going to try watching "Jekyll", though, just because Steven Moffat wrote it and I like his writing. Is John Simm in the show? I was rather bored by "Life on Mars", but I only saw the first two episodes, and so many people have told me the show was good that I think I should maybe try it again.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-21 10:27 pm (UTC)Christopher Eccleston can be so regal. While John Simm is also the northern angst type, he doesn't have the gravitas at all. Oh how I miss Nine on the show.
Come to think of it, David Tennant isn't that good at playing dark stuff, either, although he IS hot *g* It's 'Dalek' back in the first series which really hooked me on 'Doctor Who'. The episode wouldn't turn out as well with Tennant as the lead. Also when Ten said how he believed in Rose in the second series, he didn't really manage to convince me. While Nine basically said nothing at all, I believed that he believed in Rose, any day.
"I have similar reactions to Ianto as you do, not because I don't like the character, I do; but because we don't know enough about him, and because the fics tend to have nowhere to go - they strike me as being usually either bland or out of character."
When I first watched Torchwood the series, Ianto was my favourite character after Jack. However, after tons and tons of fics, he begins to tire me. The problem is that the character has nothing to defend himself against my dislike, since we know nothing about him. I hope he'll get some more decent writing in the second series.
"Which is why he reminds me of The Joker in Batman - and I don't find the Joker sexy, either! Truth to tell, I don't even find the Master very evil, because he isn't cunning or complex, he's just wilful and crazy - he does whatever he wants and has no conscience."
I don't find the Joker sexy, nor the Master very evil. The most chilling kind of evil is always the kind that we can find in our own heart. (Preparing a soundtrack for the end of the world is human, though.)
Frankly, I have problems seeing Simm!Master as the big baddie. Maybe he'd be a good minion...
"I was going to try watching 'Jekyll', though, just because Steven Moffat wrote it and I like his writing. Is John Simm in the show?"
No, John Simm isn't in 'Jekyll'. Anyone would be better than James Nesbitt, though. I nearly gave up on the show after watching fifty minutes full of him.
"I was rather bored by 'Life on Mars', but I only saw the first two episodes, and so many people have told me the show was good that I think I should maybe try it again."
Yes, the British simply adore it, don't they? My feelings towards 'Life on Mars' are a bit complicated. I used to love the first series, which is no wonder since I always enjoy nostalgia themes, the dealing with father issues and buddy cop shows, but the second series (especially the finale) let me down. It was only until then I began to see all the deep flaws in the first series. Now I nearly hate this show. However, I should say all the actors in it had done a brilliant job.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-23 02:24 pm (UTC)So do I! Though Tennant makes a delightful Doctor, I find him much less nuanced, and he seldom shows the simultaneous extremes of temperament that Eccleston seemed to portray so effortlessly. I found his version of the Doctor more integrated. And whether it was good acting or good writing or both, he made better sense.
when Ten said how he believed in Rose in the second series, he didn't really manage to convince me. While Nine basically said nothing at all, I believed that he believed in Rose, any day.
I believed in the love, but I'm not sure I believed that Ten had the depths of feeling that Nine had. Even in times of heavy angst - even though we saw the Doctor crying, for goodness' sake! - it seemed more superficial to me, while nothing with Nine seemed superficial. Nothing!
Another thought: it can't be just Tennant's acting, because I don't get this sense of transient emotion (or superficiality) in any of his other roles. Even in Casanova, where I had problems with the plot, but not with Tennant's acting or characterization of the role.
And 'superficial' might not even be the word I want, since even Tennant's Doctor doesn't seem shallow. But he oversteps a line between "deep and understandable emotional psychology" and "alien quirkiness" in a vaguely unrepairable way. He's elusive. Nine was *always* emotionally present. Visibly so. Ten seldom is. We just get glimpses of the emotional reality.
Come to think of it, David Tennant isn't that good at playing dark stuff, either, although he IS hot *g*
Yes. Very hot. He smoulders beautifully. They should give him more changes to smoulder. But ... it tends to be a short-term thing. He can be magnificent in his rage - but it does seem transient and maybe therefore, in the long range, insufficient. I get less sense of his underlying strength. Nine also lived by improvisation but gave the impression that his whims contained powerful and magnificent force. I don't get that with Tennant - which is okay - I'm really not sure how much of this in either case is the script or the action or simply the interpretation.
I do think they have shifted themes in mid-story, though, which doesn't help.
Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler
Date: 2007-07-23 02:25 pm (UTC)The fics tired me very soon and I (mostly) stopped reading them. I didn't write many, either. There wasn't quite enough to work with. So we got into patterns of fic: angsty Ianto before "Cyberwoman"; angsty Ianto after "Cyberwoman"; angsty Ianto after "End of Days"... I'd like to do more with Ianto but until the show gives me more to work with, or unless I get a major bit of insight, it's a case of 'what you see is what you get'. I have a few Ianto ideas I'd like to play with - for instance, we know from the website that Tosh told Ianto something about Jack's relationship with Jack. I don't know if other people have written about Ianto's reaction but I'd like to play with that - if I can think of something that isn't just "angsty Ianto feels sorry for himself".
I hope he'll get some more decent writing in the second series.
I do too! I want to see Ianto be heroic! I think it was his betrayal of Jack in "End of Days" that made me a little gunshy where Ianto was concerned. I thought his loyalty and his love were stronger than that.
I think my best effort writing Ianto was "Mourning Rights" and that wasn't even really about him, it was about Rhys and Gwen. But indirectly and rather significantly it was also an Ianto story, and maybe that's the way I should try to write him - from other people's points of view. Have I written Jack's point of view concerning Ianto? I don't think I have, come to think of it. And there's a good reason for it - I'm really not sure what Jack's point of view of Ianto is. I feel certain that I know how he feels about the Doctor, adn the other Jack, even Gwen - but Ianto? I really don't know.
The most chilling kind of evil is always the kind that we can find in our own heart. (Preparing a soundtrack for the end of the world is human, though.)
The Master has great moments, great bits. The scene where I find him chilling and scary and yes, even sexy, is when he's walking down the street looking for Martha - and finding her. That put chills down my back. But it wasn't sustained.
I have problems seeing Simm!Master as the big baddie. Maybe he'd be a good minion...
He would be!
Anyone would be better than James Nesbitt, though.
This I fear. I haven't found the nerve (or the time) to watch it yet.
Yes, the British simply adore it, don't they?
They do, and I know Canadians who love it, but I don't see what they see. Perhaps they just like John Simm more than I do? There are scenes I was shown as 'the good bits' that didn't seem any more interesting to me than what I'd thought were 'the boring bits'. But to be fair, I might have become interested in the story if I'd persevered past two episodes. Maybe. I usually like father issues and buddy cops, too.
Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler
Date: 2007-07-26 11:52 pm (UTC)Yes, I remember 'Mourning Rights' very well. As little as we know about Ianto, writing him from other people's points of view is a better idea.
"I think it was his betrayal of Jack in 'End of Days' that made me a little gunshy where Ianto was concerned."
Me too. I don't understand his choice, not like with Owen or Gwen. And his betrayal makes me even more unsure of him.
"Perhaps they just like John Simm more than I do?"
LOL! Maybe that's the case. While I don't think very high of Simm!master nor think Mr Simm is sexy, I do think he's a very good TV actor. I have a strong respect for any actor who can cry four times in an episode and get away with it.
Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler
Date: 2007-07-27 02:50 pm (UTC)A lot of the fun is in the relationships, and the many directions in which they work. The problem with Ianto, as I see it, is that the central most interesting core of the Jack/Ianto relationship - and particularly what it means to Jack - has been withheld from us. But that might be a strength, too, as it can be explored in different ways without contradicting canon.
I like using the 'outsider' view of our beloved characters, which is why it's fun to me to write from Rhys' point of view. Especially his view of Jack.
I don't understand his choice, not like with Owen or Gwen. And his betrayal makes me even more unsure of him.
I believe he loves Jack. But his inner life is obscure to me. I must write my 'why Ianto did what he did' story. Soon. Before next series begins.
I have a strong respect for any actor who can cry four times in an episode and get away with it.
Was that in "Life on Mars"? No doubt he's good! He's different, that's what I most admire -no trite or easy performances.