It's like Ten projects all his self-love side on the Master, but all his self-loathe side on Jack
Very true.
The Doctor is Peter Pan: though the villain is always defeated at the end of the day, the game never ends.
I really can't see the Doctor as Peter Pan. Peter Pan is the eternal boy who can't grow up and who is looking for his mother - he'll never have any kind of coming-of-age experience. The Doctor's flaw is not immaturity or innocence. If anything he is world-weary and over-experienced, suffering from guilt and loss. Not eternally young, but ageless. Peter Pan can't even understand guilt, and is incapable of it. Perhaps you could explain the Peter Pan thing a little more? Because as it stands, I don't see it at all.
In terms of archetypes I see the Doctor as the Wise Fool, seeing truths the rest of the universe can't see. And the Wise Fool is a variant of the Trickster God, and that works with the paradigm too.
Jack is one of Peter Pan's boys later grown to be Peter Pan himself. But no, there can't be TWO Peter Pans in the Neverland. It's just wrong.
Well, no, but I can't see Jack as a Peter Pan either. How could Peter Pan ever be a symbol of omnisexual experience? The whole growth-into-maturity experience Jack had when he saw his friend tortured to death puts him out of the Peter Pan eternal-childhood pattern. By the same token he can't be a Lost Boy, because they're also looking for their mothers. I think I'd pick Odysseus as my literary prototype for Jack:
I cannot rest from travel; I will drink Life to the lees. All times I have enjoy'd Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those That loved me, and alone.
- Including the sense of exile from his home, where his heart really lies, that being the TARDIS.
I can't comment on whether Nine or Ten is more like Peter Pan, because I don't think either of them is. I think Nine is also the Wise Fool. I wonder if I can think of a literary symbol that distinguishes between them, rather than equalizing them. Hmm.
I can see exactly Martha saying 'never doubted him, never will'.
Oh yes. She never says exactly those words, but it's the gist of what she says in her speeches to the people of Earth in "The Last of the Time Lords", about what everyone owes to him and how he'll come through.
It wasn't directly addressed to the Doctor, though Jack knew the Doctor could hear him.
Good point. It was a statement of faith and intent - but in reference to Jack alone, without laying reciprocity of any kind on the Doctor, who, in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack.
if it was directly dressed to the Doctor as 'never doubted you, never will', it would have been too intense to bear.
And would have brought it to a personal level, which has a totally different set of implications. Jacks sense of faith is personally and intensely directed at the Doctor. The Doctor's faith is in humanity as a whole. Jack may be a symbol of humanity in many ways, but the Doctor never makes the transition to express faith in Jack himself. In fact, he pretty much takes it for granted that Jack will die for him in "The Parting of the Ways", and that he will suffer for him in "The Last of the Time Lords". And rightly so.
I the only one that thinks the Jack/Martha chemistry is better than the Ten/Martha chemistry?
I wouldn't say 'better', but I would agree that it's wonderful. Just... different. Delightful.
The New Who companions are often seen jealous of each other, but not these two.
I can't think of any time Jack has ever shown any jealousy of anyone. I think he's perfectly happy to share whatever love he feels or receives.
Yes, I also look forward to seeing Martha in Torchwood. I'm very curious about what kind of story it will be.
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timeasmymeasure
Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2
Date: 2007-07-20 02:31 am (UTC)Very true.
The Doctor is Peter Pan: though the villain is always defeated at the end of the day, the game never ends.
I really can't see the Doctor as Peter Pan. Peter Pan is the eternal boy who can't grow up and who is looking for his mother - he'll never have any kind of coming-of-age experience. The Doctor's flaw is not immaturity or innocence. If anything he is world-weary and over-experienced, suffering from guilt and loss. Not eternally young, but ageless. Peter Pan can't even understand guilt, and is incapable of it. Perhaps you could explain the Peter Pan thing a little more? Because as it stands, I don't see it at all.
In terms of archetypes I see the Doctor as the Wise Fool, seeing truths the rest of the universe can't see. And the Wise Fool is a variant of the Trickster God, and that works with the paradigm too.
Jack is one of Peter Pan's boys later grown to be Peter Pan himself. But no, there can't be TWO Peter Pans in the Neverland. It's just wrong.
Well, no, but I can't see Jack as a Peter Pan either. How could Peter Pan ever be a symbol of omnisexual experience? The whole growth-into-maturity experience Jack had when he saw his friend tortured to death puts him out of the Peter Pan eternal-childhood pattern. By the same token he can't be a Lost Boy, because they're also looking for their mothers. I think I'd pick Odysseus as my literary prototype for Jack:
I cannot rest from travel; I will drink
Life to the lees. All times I have enjoy'd
Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone.
- Including the sense of exile from his home, where his heart really lies, that being the TARDIS.
I can't comment on whether Nine or Ten is more like Peter Pan, because I don't think either of them is. I think Nine is also the Wise Fool. I wonder if I can think of a literary symbol that distinguishes between them, rather than equalizing them. Hmm.
I can see exactly Martha saying 'never doubted him, never will'.
Oh yes. She never says exactly those words, but it's the gist of what she says in her speeches to the people of Earth in "The Last of the Time Lords", about what everyone owes to him and how he'll come through.
It wasn't directly addressed to the Doctor, though Jack knew the Doctor could hear him.
Good point. It was a statement of faith and intent - but in reference to Jack alone, without laying reciprocity of any kind on the Doctor, who, in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack.
if it was directly dressed to the Doctor as 'never doubted you, never will', it would have been too intense to bear.
And would have brought it to a personal level, which has a totally different set of implications. Jacks sense of faith is personally and intensely directed at the Doctor. The Doctor's faith is in humanity as a whole. Jack may be a symbol of humanity in many ways, but the Doctor never makes the transition to express faith in Jack himself. In fact, he pretty much takes it for granted that Jack will die for him in "The Parting of the Ways", and that he will suffer for him in "The Last of the Time Lords". And rightly so.
I the only one that thinks the Jack/Martha chemistry is better than the Ten/Martha chemistry?
I wouldn't say 'better', but I would agree that it's wonderful. Just... different. Delightful.
The New Who companions are often seen jealous of each other, but not these two.
I can't think of any time Jack has ever shown any jealousy of anyone. I think he's perfectly happy to share whatever love he feels or receives.
Yes, I also look forward to seeing Martha in Torchwood. I'm very curious about what kind of story it will be.