Torchwood and Doctor Who...

[fajrdrako]

Funny how our fannish reactions change. slodwick asked about pairings we liked. Now, any time before "The Last of the Time Lords", I'd have said my favourite pairing in fandom currently was Captain Jack Harkness and the Doctor, no question, no hesitation.

But then I found I was having trouble conceptualizing that or writing it. It's as if they... broke my pairing. Destroyed my concept of it. I didn't think that was even possible. No wonder I'm still scrambling to get my post-series-3 bearings.

And everyone else seems to be squeeing about the Master, but he's part of my mixed and troubled reactions. I'm sorting it all out in my head and it's getting easier, but not as it was. I think all I need to do is get a mental handle on it and write a fic that makes it all work for me. Really, that's all.

Meanwhile... I'm still flinching. A little.

Which is why I've refocussed on Torchwood and away from Doctor Who till I get oriented again.

Comments

Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's like Ten projects all his self-love side on the Master, but all his self-loathe side on Jack

Very true.

The Doctor is Peter Pan: though the villain is always defeated at the end of the day, the game never ends.

I really can't see the Doctor as Peter Pan. Peter Pan is the eternal boy who can't grow up and who is looking for his mother - he'll never have any kind of coming-of-age experience. The Doctor's flaw is not immaturity or innocence. If anything he is world-weary and over-experienced, suffering from guilt and loss. Not eternally young, but ageless. Peter Pan can't even understand guilt, and is incapable of it. Perhaps you could explain the Peter Pan thing a little more? Because as it stands, I don't see it at all.

In terms of archetypes I see the Doctor as the Wise Fool, seeing truths the rest of the universe can't see. And the Wise Fool is a variant of the Trickster God, and that works with the paradigm too.

Jack is one of Peter Pan's boys later grown to be Peter Pan himself. But no, there can't be TWO Peter Pans in the Neverland. It's just wrong.

Well, no, but I can't see Jack as a Peter Pan either. How could Peter Pan ever be a symbol of omnisexual experience? The whole growth-into-maturity experience Jack had when he saw his friend tortured to death puts him out of the Peter Pan eternal-childhood pattern. By the same token he can't be a Lost Boy, because they're also looking for their mothers. I think I'd pick Odysseus as my literary prototype for Jack:

I cannot rest from travel; I will drink
Life to the lees. All times I have enjoy'd
Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone.

- Including the sense of exile from his home, where his heart really lies, that being the TARDIS.

I can't comment on whether Nine or Ten is more like Peter Pan, because I don't think either of them is. I think Nine is also the Wise Fool. I wonder if I can think of a literary symbol that distinguishes between them, rather than equalizing them. Hmm.

I can see exactly Martha saying 'never doubted him, never will'.

Oh yes. She never says exactly those words, but it's the gist of what she says in her speeches to the people of Earth in "The Last of the Time Lords", about what everyone owes to him and how he'll come through.

It wasn't directly addressed to the Doctor, though Jack knew the Doctor could hear him.

Good point. It was a statement of faith and intent - but in reference to Jack alone, without laying reciprocity of any kind on the Doctor, who, in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack.

if it was directly dressed to the Doctor as 'never doubted you, never will', it would have been too intense to bear.

And would have brought it to a personal level, which has a totally different set of implications. Jacks sense of faith is personally and intensely directed at the Doctor. The Doctor's faith is in humanity as a whole. Jack may be a symbol of humanity in many ways, but the Doctor never makes the transition to express faith in Jack himself. In fact, he pretty much takes it for granted that Jack will die for him in "The Parting of the Ways", and that he will suffer for him in "The Last of the Time Lords". And rightly so.

I the only one that thinks the Jack/Martha chemistry is better than the Ten/Martha chemistry?

I wouldn't say 'better', but I would agree that it's wonderful. Just... different. Delightful.

The New Who companions are often seen jealous of each other, but not these two.

I can't think of any time Jack has ever shown any jealousy of anyone. I think he's perfectly happy to share whatever love he feels or receives.

Yes, I also look forward to seeing Martha in Torchwood. I'm very curious about what kind of story it will be.

Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"Am I the only one that thinks the Jack/Martha chemistry is better than the Ten/Martha chemistry?
I wouldn't say 'better', but I would agree that it's wonderful. Just... different. Delightful."

Delightful. That's the right word for it:)

"It was a statement of faith and intent - but in reference to Jack alone, without laying reciprocity of any kind on the Doctor, who, in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack."

This absolute trust and obedience is also a very military thing. Nine is more military than Ten. And Doctor/Jack always has a military side (the goodbye scene in LotTL).

"Perhaps you could explain the Peter Pan thing a little more? Because as it stands, I don't see it at all."

I'm afraid I can't find the words to explain this one well. The Doctor(s) is/are always a little childish inside. I do think that Nine has changed after the Time War, that he learns to lay down his guilt. He seems to be the most adult of them all. But with Ten I'm not so sure. In my eyes, after two series, he never really learns from his experiences. Also he is always the centre of the world. He talks about 'companions wither and die'. Sarah Jane kinda felt bitter, like a grown up Wendy. As for the 'gay, innocent, heartless', I admit that even Ten(who is more chipper, more immature and more nasty than Nine) doesn't quite fit. The Old Who Doctors before the loss of the Great Time War sometimes seem more like Peter Pan to me, since they're more constant, with less angst. But then they also have this world-weary air about them. (I really don't explain myself well, do I? Doctor Who is a kids' show also watched by us adults, which makes the symbol multi-layered. The Doctor's never-ending adventures can be seen as 'to play forever' (as in Neverland), while the Torchwood adventure is seen more as 'work' than 'play'. The TARDIS adventures can also be as dangerous as in Neverland. Anyway, I only think the Peter Pan feel is one of the aspects of the Doctor's personality. The Doctor is world-weary and childish, innocent and guilty, playful and serious, all at the same time. That's the appeal:)

The Wise Fool metaphor is very apt.

"Well, no, but I can't see Jack as a Peter Pan either. How could Peter Pan ever be a symbol of omnisexual experience?"

I'm wrong. Utterly. How can I forget the sexual side? Now I'd like to say Jack has outgrown the Doctor(in the case of Ten) so 'to play forever' isn't Jack's favourite game any more. He chooses to return to our everyday, hard-working world to make it better(with his awesome *g*). It may be the same story with Martha, too. It's Wendy and the other kids who have to leave Peter Pan, not the other way round.

And the Odysseus poem brought tears to my eyes...

Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I said: "the Doctor...in all of this paradigm, owes nothing to Jack and offers nothing to Jack." I should perhaps add that I don't think it's that he gives nothing to Jack - I think he gives him a lot - but not in terms of reciprocality or what is owed. More like a free gift. In several senses, the Doctor has given Jack back his whole life - he saves him from both physical and spiritual death. And then Rose makes him Immortal. It isn't that no one ever gives Jack anything! But where Jack and the Doctor are concerned, the terms are not equal. Not ever. Between Jack and Martha, they are.

Doctor/Jack always has a military side (the goodbye scene in LotTL).

Yes - the Doctor even deliberately assumes a "commanding officer" role in "Boom Town", which is a very cute moment, and unusual for him.

Interesting "Peter Pan" comments, which I will consider. Perhaps my lack of understanding is because I haven't seen the Doctors previous to Nine. I can see that he is... that the Doctor has playful aspects that we don't usually associate with adults, and in some ways he is oddly socialized in ways we associate more with children - being honest to the point of rudeness, for example. But I have trouble seeing the Doctor as either childish or immature, or having the attitude to life that Peter Pan has. He's colossally mature when he wants to be. Perhaps it is all the effect of his being whimsical, and his sense of glee in situations where most human adults would think it inappropriate? (When in danger, for example. Or when faced with an alien werewolf.)

The wonderful thing about it all is that whether he is Peter Pan or not, whether he has fallen too far to the dark/twisted side of his personality, or whether he is simply changeable, he has this wonderful multifaceted personality that is very strong and vivid and loveable (usually) and in some ways unlike anything else in literature. Endlessly fun to study and analyze.

Yes, I like the Wise Fool metaphor. I'm going to think about it and see if I can write something coherent about it. Or not. Or just incorporate it as a theme in fiction. Right now I mostly want to write tender or passionate Ten/Jack scenes to comfort myself about their mutual love!

the Odysseus poem brought tears to my eyes...

It's maybe my favourite poem of all time, and Odysseus in it is one of my favourite examples of a hero. I love it that I can apply that same poem to Jack.

Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"The wonderful thing about it all is that whether he is Peter Pan or not, whether he has fallen too far to the dark/twisted side of his personality, or whether he is simply changeable, he has this wonderful multifaceted personality that is very strong and vivid and loveable (usually) and in some ways unlike anything else in literature. Endlessly fun to study and analyze."

Maybe the Doctor's personality comes from the old Victorian bachelor/traveller archtype in British literature? Slightly childlike, very whimsical, yet sometimes deadly serious, with a little touch of darkness, but always a gentleman, with his strange tastes, strange habits, twisted sense of humor and platonic loves.

Only a thought.

Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Maybe the Doctor's personality comes from the old Victorian bachelor/traveller archtype in British literature?

It's a safe bet that Russell T. Davies would be familiar with the type. And you may have picked up on something more central here: that of all heroes in television today, or probably any other medium, the Doctor's roots are not just in the present day, or the 20th century, or any particular time. He takes aspects from all ages and branches of culture. This helps to make him elusive and intriguing, and convincing as a time traveller. He doesn't fit in as a classic hero of our time (though he liked being compared to James Bond!) - or specifically of any given time - but he fits to a degree as a hero of any time. Which helps to make him seem timeless.

He certainly fits the Victorian archetype you describe, and wouldn't it be incredibly easy to imagine him in the pages of Dickens? But he would also fit into a Fielding novel, or Shakespeare, or Chaucer - well, who wouldn't? - or Aeschylus or - well, the writers of any era, especially if they span both the dark/serious and the light/comic.

Now I'm trying to picture the Doctor walking into a scene from Beowulf. Or Jane Austen - well, he might be one of the rather eccentric friends of her heroes, and the heroine's flighty sister might have a crush on him that would come to nothing.

Now I'm feeling the urge to write historically-minded crossover fic. Hmmph.

Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"It's a safe bet that Russell T. Davies would be familiar with the type. And you may have picked up on something more central here: that of all heroes in television today, or probably any other medium, the Doctor's roots are not just in the present day, or the 20th century, or any particular time. He takes aspects from all ages and branches of culture. This helps to make him elusive and intriguing, and convincing as a time traveller."

Well, Russell T. Davies didn't invent the character. I agree wholeheartedly with you on the rest.

And the Wise Fool exists in so many different cultures, while Peter Pan does not.

"He doesn't fit in as a classic hero of our time (though he liked being compared to James Bond!)"

The third Doctor is very James Bond. His stories kinda begin to blur in your memories when you've watched many of them...They all have good bits, though.

"Now I'm feeling the urge to write historically-minded crossover fic."

You so SHOULD write it. Even a drabble is good. Doctor Who and the Doctor are made for crossovers! Especially in the realm of English literature...

Re: Babbling about the Doctor and Jack, part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Russell T. Davies didn't invent the character

No, but he's the one currently pulling the strings. I can't comment on the intentions of the previous writers because I haven't seen the old episodes.

I see the Doctor as the Wise Fool; I see Peter Pan as a sort of opposite achetype - Innocent Fool, maybe, though that phrase doesn't exactly capture it. Young Seeker, perhaps.

I do plan to do a historical story. Or two. As soon as I find the time. After all, I promised kimsrants I'd do a story with Captain Jack and Rome.