Penemue...

[fajrdrako]

This is very cool. The art of writing. I like that. Got it from bright_lilim.


Take The Which Fallen Angel Would You Be Quiz
Brought to you by Angel August's Abode

Ironically for an evil angel, Penemue was the curer of stupidity. This seems to go against church doctrines which state that demons are stupid.
However, a demon needs to be intelligent and cunning in order to be able to tempt the wisest of men. He also taught man the bitter and the sweet, and the secret of their wisdom.
Worst of all, he taught the use of ink and paper in writing.
For God had said that human beings were not created for such purposes.


I looked him up: info here.

Comments

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

I got Azazel. Who is the spiritual father of all the demon babies in SPN. Including the character I most identify with. Of course, they're trying to KILL him...

*wins*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Does this give you a sense of conflict? (g) I like the sound of him!

I've heard of Azazel; but I can't place where. Somewhere in the writings of Neil Gaiman, I think, probably Sandman. Don't recall ever hearing the name Penemue, which is odd, because, given his province, you'd think I'd have gravitated to him long ago!

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Azazello is a character in The Master & Margarita - one of my all-time favourite books! Demons on the loose in Stalinist Moscow! And one of them is a very cool, talking, gun-slinging cat!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I haven't read that - though I've put it on my 'to read' list now. So that can't be where I read about him. I suspect he's been mentioned somewhere by Neil Gaiman.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

The cat, Begemot (Behemoth), is a wonderful character: the size of a pig, talks, stands upright, and wears a raincoat and hat. I imagine a sort of feline Humphrey Bogart...

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Acolytes of Penemue! How appropriate.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I got Penemue, too!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Excellent!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I have been working, lately, with an area of thought within disability studies which attempts to deconstruct (or at least understand some of the aspects of) the social construction of... you name it: mental illness, mental retardation, "disability" itself. And here you mention that church doctrines hold that demons are stupid. Which also can mean, "stupid" people are either evil, or else just not to be considered capable of being good -- not like other, more typically cogntitively-gifted people.

Ugly = bad, retarded = bad, unable to talk (stammerers) = bad, one eye that looks left while the other looks straight = bad, and so on, and so on. I have a wonderful and amazing books called Freaks: it chronicles the life of people involved in the "freak shows" of old. Basically, the people who put themselves on exhibit did so from the mindset of being performers; on the other hand, sometimes they were billed as "half-human" or "savage" or even, in one remarkable instance, as "What Is It?" (a man with microcephaly, of African descent, whose name was William Johnston... his act went on for decades, I think he was with either P.T.Barnum or the Ringling Brothers circus, one of these bigger organizations). In the preface to this book, the author recounts a conversation between his young son and a pal, as they all settled down to watch an animated Disney film: the pal asked, "Who are the bad guys?" and the son replied offhandly, "If they look bad, they are bad."

Demons are stupid. Because stupid is bad. And demons are bad. Therefore, demons can have no "good" characteristics. And stupid people, therefore, also cannot be good... because if they were good, why would God have made them stupid in this life? Ugh. These sorts of automatic bits of thinking are what make it difficult to structure a class on disability studies -- so many things "go without saying," and it is hard to bring attention to them without also first dealing with thoughtless assumptions, unconscious assumptions. Points up how fascinating is the human mind, how able to create its own realities in which people want and need to feel comfortable and in control... not so?

Thanks for giving me a neat thought to hook onto!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Are you equating demons to disabled people? I'm not sure it's a fair analogy: demons were created (as an intellectual construct) as symbols of evil, and, moreover, creatures who had chosen that evil over a free option of good. Begging the question of whether all demons are fallen angels - I think so, but I'm not sure. Begging also the question of whether it's demons who cause people to be disabled, as is asserted in some myths. In the case of Penemuel as described here, he sounds more like an enabler to me! - and may I add how I dislike this terminology, when taken outside an academic context? Yeech. Sounds so hokey. But the words are useful so maybe I'll just get used to them.

Anyway, I don't think the syllogism is that "demons are bad because they are stupid". It's the other way around, causally: "demons are bad, being bad is stupid, therefore demons are stupid." "Bad" in this case is being defined as "disobedient to the edicts of God" - which are pretty arbitrary and restrictive in this mythology, I think. I wonder how Milton played it. I don't remember.

Nor do I see a value in the reverse notion that "stupidity is a good thing". It isn't.

because if they were good, why would God have made them stupid in this life?

I think the argument is that God made the angels perfect, and therefore intelligent. In rebelling, they chose evil and made themselves stupid, and re-created themselves as less than they could have been. Therefore God did not create demons, they created themselves by following the bad (Lucifer) rather than the good (God).

I'm not sure how much this holds water as a theological argument, though, not being an expert on demonology - just somewhat on the history surrounding them.

I'm not sure whether you are confusing social sciences and myths, or saying that other people do. Either way, I think it's important - if we want a clear vision of reality - not to confuse the two concepts. Myth, psychology, and sociology all overlap but aren't in the least interchangeable.

Points up how fascinating is the human mind, how able to create its own realities in which people want and need to feel comfortable and in control... not so?

Somewhat different with every person, yes. And these demonology treatises cited by Davidson only reflect what was written down in some century when these studies were intellectually popular. I don't think it's 'unconscious assumptions' so much as 'learned assumptions', possibly but not necessarily sublimated.

Thanks for giving me a neat thought to hook onto!

You're welcome!

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Plus there's a difference between being stupid and having an impairment of the brain... People of perfectly normal brain function are nevertheless capable of crass stupidity. Indeed, true stupidity requires otherwise normal faculties: it just misapplies them.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

there's a difference between being stupid and having an impairment of the brain...

Sure. Words are used fairly loosely but generally 'stupid' is used not to apply to people of impaired intellectual capacity. It's used to apply to people who do things they shouldn't (or who think things that are absurd) when they should know better - making bad decisions, for example.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

I got to be Kokabel



but but... in the wikipedia article it was said that Penemue was allso tought to be an alternative name for Kokabel.

Both are teachers ...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Maybe they were twins? (g)

Let's hear it for Kokobel and Penemuel!

I looked Penemuel up in my Angel book when I was discussing Penemuel with ataniell93 - I'll reproduce what I said here:

~ ~ ~

Okay, I got my lazy self over to the bookcase and consulted my best Angel book, A Dictionary of Angels by Gustav Davidson. There is an entry on Penemue on p. 222. It says:

Penemue ("the inside") - in Enoch lore, one of the fallen angels who "taught mankind the art of writing with ink and paper", an art which was condemned as evil and corrupting. Penemue also taught "the children of men the bitter and the sweet and the secrets of their wisdom." He is one of the curers of stupidity in man, and is mentioned in the Bereshith Rabba. Variants: Penemuel, Tamuel, Tamel, Tumael.

He cures stupidity! We could use a little more of that in this world.

I like the name Penemuel better than Penemue. I assume the latter is pronounced "Pen em you ee" - do you know?

~ ~ ~

So I looked up Kokobel and it says "see Kakabel" and under "Kakabel" (p. 164) Davidson says:

Kakabel [Kochbiel, Kokbiel, Kabaiel, Kochab - "star of God") - a great angelic prince who exercises dominion over the stars and constellations. In Book of the Angel Raziel, Kakabel is a high, holy angel; but in apocryphal lore generally, as in Enoch I, he is evil (a fallen angel) and a residentof the netehr realms. Whether in heaven or in Hell, Kakabel commands 365,000 surrogate spirits who do his bidding. Among other duties be instructs his fellows in astrology.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

Kakabel commands 365,000 surrogate spirits who do his bidding.

WOW thar is something. But I am never good in organizing and taking command. How the hell did I end up in this job!!! And why is the teaching of astronomy taken away from me (as mentioned in the quiz), should we ask the quizmaker for his/her sources?

What I find interesting is that penemuel teaches not just any writing but with ink of paper. Why would that specifically be more evil than on ppapyrus, or in stone or claytablets (al pretty durable, certainly the last two). I could understand if writing in the sand or on waxtablet is tolerated since they don't tend to last. So I guess it must be something else...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I am never good in organizing and taking command. How the hell did I end up in this job!!!

I;m sure if you have 365,000 lackeys you can delegate one of them to organize the others, and lounge around, above it all.

should we ask the quizmaker for his/her sources?

Yes - the answers would be interesting!

ink of paper. Why would that specifically be more evil than on ppapyrus, or in stone or claytablets

Maybe because it's newfangled? Or because it's too easy - anyone can do it, you don't need many years of training? So the calligrapher hasn't morally earned his role of recorder of things? (Makes me think of Abou Ben Adam!)

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I'm more of a laptop-using angel...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's even better!

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

That's a good angel!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Apparently some Angels can be both angels and demons, depending which sources you look at. (Analogies to certainly historical figures spring to mind.) Sounds like a good trick to me. Something to put on your celestial resume. Adaptable to circumstances.

Maybe an angel is just a demon with good PR.

Bringing the art of writing to the world - and fighting stupidity - what could be better?

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Spreading evil and/or dissent?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There seems to be a Biblical or traditional connection between knowledge and evil. I haven't quite figured that one out as a concept; perhaps it is similar to the Taliban's idea that it is bad to study anything besides the Qu'ran?

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

It's probably because religions were founded by stupid people who didn't like being outwitted. I find the veneration of innocence ignorance, humility and meekness deeply dispiriting. There is no virtue in doormat-itude.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I just can't figure why anyone would think it a survival trait to foster stupidity and ignorance. Something to do with hubris, maybe? Obviously nothing very rational, and nothing which values reason as a value.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yup. I think it may be because some of these religions grew out of small, tribal communities, which tend to breed "tall poppy syndrome" - a tendency to resent anyone in the group being too successful, too intelligent, & c., and wishing to cut them down to size - whereas in larger, urban societies, people can find and form their own peer groups.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

some of these religions grew out of small, tribal communities

What's sad is that these ideas, which may arguably have been suitable for a small tribal community, survive to this day.

Annoyed with you all

[(Anonymous)]

This is very insulting you know demons are stupid humans are stupid if you stuck to other books and maybe a book that wasn’t turned into a bunch of other doctrines and books removed maybe you would know the truth but your leaders blind you and keep you from your truth and true potential liars and thieves like the demons who have wronged me they will pay all of them and man will get what it gets for it’s disobedience and stupidity i know who I am don’t need a quiz yawn you insult my name I don’t like that you know nothing just folly of the foolish I wish not to teach you humans anything cause teach you anything is like giving a child a match and saying don’t burn the house down with me in it I swear humanity is so screwed right now first of all I’m not a demon fallen angels or watcher angels are not demons don’t compare me to a stupid locust or fly I don’t like pest I already found my redemption through my father and Michael so I don’t need human input either may you all become wise not blind like the world or humanity you all would use me for power for your own greedy and for your own knowledge and then use that knowledge and chose to do evil with it computers are taking over scientist and politicians and greedy corporations take over this world and you all act like you can play god it’s time to sit down shut up listen and understand that this planet is going to be destroyed by human stupidity sin and free will and using the free will to do wrong and by the demons just wait and you all gonna cry for me for help Penemue help me nope wanna play my father why should I help stupid selfish humans who don’t care about one another and call me a demon I am still one of the sons of god show respect see this is why you all should have pen and paper you make wrong information and I’m called a demon Do you even know what I’ve had to go through you humans so selfish want want want need need need it’s mine it’s mine and hatefulness over color of the skin stupid God made all of you and this is how you all act make mocker and jokes out of everything shame on all of humanity. May my father forgive me for going on a rant but I’m doing research on many things and I find this