Torchwood and Doctor Who...

[fajrdrako]

Funny how our fannish reactions change. slodwick asked about pairings we liked. Now, any time before "The Last of the Time Lords", I'd have said my favourite pairing in fandom currently was Captain Jack Harkness and the Doctor, no question, no hesitation.

But then I found I was having trouble conceptualizing that or writing it. It's as if they... broke my pairing. Destroyed my concept of it. I didn't think that was even possible. No wonder I'm still scrambling to get my post-series-3 bearings.

And everyone else seems to be squeeing about the Master, but he's part of my mixed and troubled reactions. I'm sorting it all out in my head and it's getting easier, but not as it was. I think all I need to do is get a mental handle on it and write a fic that makes it all work for me. Really, that's all.

Meanwhile... I'm still flinching. A little.

Which is why I've refocussed on Torchwood and away from Doctor Who till I get oriented again.

Comments

Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"I don't find the Master all that attractive. Most of fandom seems enchanted with the Master, and I'm not."

I can only say: in our time, evil=hot.

I hate times like this, it's like I'm being left cold by the whole fandom. I used to find Ianto as a character not that fascinating, too. I think he was very, very cute and I'd like to read some fics about him, or about him and Jack, but certainly not to find every one of the fics is about him.

John Simm certainly isn't physically attractive. To find Simm!Master unattractive is perfectly understandable. (Am I the only one who thinks Mr Simm looks like Tintin?) And the writing of the Master is rather silly. He did turn out to have very good chemistry with David Tennant, though. I'd never thought that. Nice surprise.

I've been watching Steve Moffat's 'Jekyll' recently and simply loathe James Nesbitt in it. Then I happened to rewatch DW with a friend, from 'Utopia' to LotTL. Having seen Nesbitt's Jekyll/Hyde, this time I not only think Sir Derek Jacobi is a God, but also find the Simm!Master a whole lot better. When I finished 'Jekyll', I may even find Simm!Master as charismatic as some people said. Who knows.

Well, since I'm doomed to be among the minority, at least this time I can comfort myself that Sam Tyler(John Simm) in 'Life on Mars' cries far better than Ianto in 'Cyberwoman'...

Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I can only say: in our time, evil=hot.

To some extent, I can relate to that - thinking of my reactions to seeing pictures of Christopher Eccleston as the Black Rider in "The Dark is Rising". But that's because it's Christopher Eccleston.... Yeah. The Master struck me as interesting but not hot. Not even when the Doctor was holding him - though the Doctor was hot, for sure!

I have similar reactions to Ianto as you do, not because I don't like the character, I do; but because we don't know enough about him, and because the fics tend to have nowhere to go - they strike me as being usually either bland or out of character. I hope they add to the complexity in Torchwood series 2. I find the other Jack sexier and more interesting because of the way he was portrayed, but the situation leaves very little room for fic or speculation: what we saw is what we get. Jack/Doctor was my standby.

(Am I the only one who thinks Mr Simm looks like Tintin?)

I'd never thought of that!

the writing of the Master is rather silly.

Which is why he reminds me of The Joker in Batman - and I don't find the Joker sexy, either! Truth to tell, I don't even find the Master very evil, because he isn't cunning or complex, he's just wilful and crazy - he does whatever he wants and has no conscience.

I've been watching Steve Moffat's 'Jekyll' recently and simply loathe James Nesbitt in it.

I saw James Nesbitt in something (I forget which) and didn't like him at all. I was going to try watching "Jekyll", though, just because Steven Moffat wrote it and I like his writing. Is John Simm in the show? I was rather bored by "Life on Mars", but I only saw the first two episodes, and so many people have told me the show was good that I think I should maybe try it again.

Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"thinking of my reactions to seeing pictures of Christopher Eccleston as the Black Rider in "The Dark is Rising". But that's because it's Christopher Eccleston...."

Christopher Eccleston can be so regal. While John Simm is also the northern angst type, he doesn't have the gravitas at all. Oh how I miss Nine on the show.

Come to think of it, David Tennant isn't that good at playing dark stuff, either, although he IS hot *g* It's 'Dalek' back in the first series which really hooked me on 'Doctor Who'. The episode wouldn't turn out as well with Tennant as the lead. Also when Ten said how he believed in Rose in the second series, he didn't really manage to convince me. While Nine basically said nothing at all, I believed that he believed in Rose, any day.

"I have similar reactions to Ianto as you do, not because I don't like the character, I do; but because we don't know enough about him, and because the fics tend to have nowhere to go - they strike me as being usually either bland or out of character."

When I first watched Torchwood the series, Ianto was my favourite character after Jack. However, after tons and tons of fics, he begins to tire me. The problem is that the character has nothing to defend himself against my dislike, since we know nothing about him. I hope he'll get some more decent writing in the second series.

"Which is why he reminds me of The Joker in Batman - and I don't find the Joker sexy, either! Truth to tell, I don't even find the Master very evil, because he isn't cunning or complex, he's just wilful and crazy - he does whatever he wants and has no conscience."

I don't find the Joker sexy, nor the Master very evil. The most chilling kind of evil is always the kind that we can find in our own heart. (Preparing a soundtrack for the end of the world is human, though.)

Frankly, I have problems seeing Simm!Master as the big baddie. Maybe he'd be a good minion...

"I was going to try watching 'Jekyll', though, just because Steven Moffat wrote it and I like his writing. Is John Simm in the show?"

No, John Simm isn't in 'Jekyll'. Anyone would be better than James Nesbitt, though. I nearly gave up on the show after watching fifty minutes full of him.

"I was rather bored by 'Life on Mars', but I only saw the first two episodes, and so many people have told me the show was good that I think I should maybe try it again."

Yes, the British simply adore it, don't they? My feelings towards 'Life on Mars' are a bit complicated. I used to love the first series, which is no wonder since I always enjoy nostalgia themes, the dealing with father issues and buddy cop shows, but the second series (especially the finale) let me down. It was only until then I began to see all the deep flaws in the first series. Now I nearly hate this show. However, I should say all the actors in it had done a brilliant job.

Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Christopher Eccleston can be so regal. ... Oh how I miss Nine on the show.

So do I! Though Tennant makes a delightful Doctor, I find him much less nuanced, and he seldom shows the simultaneous extremes of temperament that Eccleston seemed to portray so effortlessly. I found his version of the Doctor more integrated. And whether it was good acting or good writing or both, he made better sense.

when Ten said how he believed in Rose in the second series, he didn't really manage to convince me. While Nine basically said nothing at all, I believed that he believed in Rose, any day.

I believed in the love, but I'm not sure I believed that Ten had the depths of feeling that Nine had. Even in times of heavy angst - even though we saw the Doctor crying, for goodness' sake! - it seemed more superficial to me, while nothing with Nine seemed superficial. Nothing!

Another thought: it can't be just Tennant's acting, because I don't get this sense of transient emotion (or superficiality) in any of his other roles. Even in Casanova, where I had problems with the plot, but not with Tennant's acting or characterization of the role.

And 'superficial' might not even be the word I want, since even Tennant's Doctor doesn't seem shallow. But he oversteps a line between "deep and understandable emotional psychology" and "alien quirkiness" in a vaguely unrepairable way. He's elusive. Nine was *always* emotionally present. Visibly so. Ten seldom is. We just get glimpses of the emotional reality.

Come to think of it, David Tennant isn't that good at playing dark stuff, either, although he IS hot *g*

Yes. Very hot. He smoulders beautifully. They should give him more changes to smoulder. But ... it tends to be a short-term thing. He can be magnificent in his rage - but it does seem transient and maybe therefore, in the long range, insufficient. I get less sense of his underlying strength. Nine also lived by improvisation but gave the impression that his whims contained powerful and magnificent force. I don't get that with Tennant - which is okay - I'm really not sure how much of this in either case is the script or the action or simply the interpretation.

I do think they have shifted themes in mid-story, though, which doesn't help.

Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ianto was my favourite character after Jack. However, after tons and tons of fics, he begins to tire me.

The fics tired me very soon and I (mostly) stopped reading them. I didn't write many, either. There wasn't quite enough to work with. So we got into patterns of fic: angsty Ianto before "Cyberwoman"; angsty Ianto after "Cyberwoman"; angsty Ianto after "End of Days"... I'd like to do more with Ianto but until the show gives me more to work with, or unless I get a major bit of insight, it's a case of 'what you see is what you get'. I have a few Ianto ideas I'd like to play with - for instance, we know from the website that Tosh told Ianto something about Jack's relationship with Jack. I don't know if other people have written about Ianto's reaction but I'd like to play with that - if I can think of something that isn't just "angsty Ianto feels sorry for himself".

I hope he'll get some more decent writing in the second series.

I do too! I want to see Ianto be heroic! I think it was his betrayal of Jack in "End of Days" that made me a little gunshy where Ianto was concerned. I thought his loyalty and his love were stronger than that.

I think my best effort writing Ianto was "Mourning Rights" and that wasn't even really about him, it was about Rhys and Gwen. But indirectly and rather significantly it was also an Ianto story, and maybe that's the way I should try to write him - from other people's points of view. Have I written Jack's point of view concerning Ianto? I don't think I have, come to think of it. And there's a good reason for it - I'm really not sure what Jack's point of view of Ianto is. I feel certain that I know how he feels about the Doctor, adn the other Jack, even Gwen - but Ianto? I really don't know.

The most chilling kind of evil is always the kind that we can find in our own heart. (Preparing a soundtrack for the end of the world is human, though.)

The Master has great moments, great bits. The scene where I find him chilling and scary and yes, even sexy, is when he's walking down the street looking for Martha - and finding her. That put chills down my back. But it wasn't sustained.

I have problems seeing Simm!Master as the big baddie. Maybe he'd be a good minion...

He would be!

Anyone would be better than James Nesbitt, though.

This I fear. I haven't found the nerve (or the time) to watch it yet.

Yes, the British simply adore it, don't they?

They do, and I know Canadians who love it, but I don't see what they see. Perhaps they just like John Simm more than I do? There are scenes I was shown as 'the good bits' that didn't seem any more interesting to me than what I'd thought were 'the boring bits'. But to be fair, I might have become interested in the story if I'd persevered past two episodes. Maybe. I usually like father issues and buddy cops, too.

Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

"I think my best effort writing Ianto was 'Mourning Rights' and that wasn't even really about him, it was about Rhys and Gwen. But indirectly and rather significantly it was also an Ianto story, and maybe that's the way I should try to write him - from other people's points of view."

Yes, I remember 'Mourning Rights' very well. As little as we know about Ianto, writing him from other people's points of view is a better idea.

"I think it was his betrayal of Jack in 'End of Days' that made me a little gunshy where Ianto was concerned."

Me too. I don't understand his choice, not like with Owen or Gwen. And his betrayal makes me even more unsure of him.

"Perhaps they just like John Simm more than I do?"

LOL! Maybe that's the case. While I don't think very high of Simm!master nor think Mr Simm is sexy, I do think he's a very good TV actor. I have a strong respect for any actor who can cry four times in an episode and get away with it.

Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

As little as we know about Ianto, writing him from other people's points of view is a better idea.

A lot of the fun is in the relationships, and the many directions in which they work. The problem with Ianto, as I see it, is that the central most interesting core of the Jack/Ianto relationship - and particularly what it means to Jack - has been withheld from us. But that might be a strength, too, as it can be explored in different ways without contradicting canon.

I like using the 'outsider' view of our beloved characters, which is why it's fun to me to write from Rhys' point of view. Especially his view of Jack.

I don't understand his choice, not like with Owen or Gwen. And his betrayal makes me even more unsure of him.

I believe he loves Jack. But his inner life is obscure to me. I must write my 'why Ianto did what he did' story. Soon. Before next series begins.

I have a strong respect for any actor who can cry four times in an episode and get away with it.

Was that in "Life on Mars"? No doubt he's good! He's different, that's what I most admire -no trite or easy performances.