Torchwood and Doctor Who...
Jul. 17th, 2007 03:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
fajrdrakoFunny how our fannish reactions change.
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slodwick asked about pairings we liked. Now, any time before "The Last of the Time Lords", I'd have said my favourite pairing in fandom currently was Captain Jack Harkness and the Doctor, no question, no hesitation.But then I found I was having trouble conceptualizing that or writing it. It's as if they... broke my pairing. Destroyed my concept of it. I didn't think that was even possible. No wonder I'm still scrambling to get my post-series-3 bearings.
And everyone else seems to be squeeing about the Master, but he's part of my mixed and troubled reactions. I'm sorting it all out in my head and it's getting easier, but not as it was. I think all I need to do is get a mental handle on it and write a fic that makes it all work for me. Really, that's all.
Meanwhile... I'm still flinching. A little.
Which is why I've refocussed on Torchwood and away from Doctor Who till I get oriented again.
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Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-18 04:16 pm (UTC)3.Jack and Martha both learn a lesson from the Doctor: you can be the Doctor in your own world, in your own way. And when you become the Doctor, you don't need him anymore.
I think throughout series 1 Torchwood it is clear that Jack was trying to become the Doctor; or trying to be the best Captain Jack that he could be, in the Doctor's image. This still stands. Making himself worthy of the Doctor in every way he can, not out of dependency or to prove himself, but out of... self-respect, perhaps?
I think he was trying to prove himself to the Doctor, back in Doctor Who series 1, and probably in Torchwood series 1 too. I think this shows him growing a little beyond that. He didn't get the approval I think he deserves from the Doctor - maybe never will, maybe never should, but I'd like to see it. (Might write it. Would like to. I would settle for so little: a thank-you kiss would make all the difference!)
So Jack can finally put the Doctor behind, and let the bygone be gone.
The thing is: I hope he doesn't. Even though it appears he has, at least in some ways. Perhaps this is the crux of what I still have to reconcile. There are reasons to hope:
(1) Everything changes.
(2) We know of the great affection that existed, and always will exist, between the Doctor and the Face of Boe.
(3) I still believe that the basic emotional nature of both Jack and the Doctor is consistency and growth, not ephemerality and loss, however they might struggle to leave the past behind. Many things in the "Last of the Time Lords" story arc emphasize this: the Doctor still loves Gallifrey, he still loves the Master who was his childhood friend, however damaged; he still loves Rose. Jack equally remembers past lovers and friends (examples abound; Estelle and the boy he went to war with are among my favourites.)
Maybe Jack'll become a friend whom every incarnation of the Doctor in the new series can count on, and share an adventure(and hopefully a kiss) with every one of them. Mmm, I'd like to see that.
Oh, yes! Very good thought.
for now, RTD didn't give us much to chew on.
No. I expect he wanted to free things up for Torchwood. Series 1 had Jack pining for the Doctor, and though his love of Captain Jack Harkness was a lovely counterpoint, it wasn't a dose of happiness in contrast. Perhaps RTD felt that alleviating or removing Jack's preoccupation with the Doctor would free things up for him to interact more fully (or more sexually) with characters in Torchwood.
Thanks for listening; talking this through helps a lot. I'm sure I'll have more to say when I've considered this a little more.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-18 10:01 pm (UTC)Good point. I forgot this one.
"I would settle for so little: a thank-you kiss would make all the difference!"
Exactly my thoughts!
"I still believe that the basic emotional nature of both Jack and the Doctor is consistency and growth, not ephemerality and loss, however they might struggle to leave the past behind."
Well, I believe love isn't something that one can grow out of. One can grow out of passion, but not love, not affection. Love is the phoenix reborning in the fire which has formerly destroyed it, time after time. (Isn't that also the image of a Time Lord's regeneration?) At least I hope so:)
"Perhaps RTD felt that alleviating or removing Jack's preoccupation with the Doctor would free things up for him to interact more fully (or more sexually) with characters in Torchwood."
That's possible. I still miss the Jack/Jack pairing: dance, soulmate, old-fashioned romance, that kind of thing. Also Jack/Ianto fangirls must have been very satisfied with the emotional side of the DW finale. I wonder what flavors we'll get for the second series.
"Thanks for listening; talking this through helps a lot."
You're welcome:) This conversation helps me a lot, too.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-18 11:36 pm (UTC)I believe love isn't something that one can grow out of.
No, and I see no reason to think either Jack nor the Doctor has done so. Jack has loved him without any contact for 138 years. Another ray of hope for me comes from one of the things that bothered me: the Doctor made Jack's time manipulator inoperable, effectively trapping Jack in our present. This upset me: it as as if the Doctor was (a) assuming an unwarranted authority over Jack's life and implying that Jack shouldn't have such technology, and that he had the right to take it away from him; and (b) punishing him for his loyalty, his support, and his suffering on the Doctor's behalf.
On thinking about it, I thought: how else could the Doctor make sure he could find Jack whenever he wanted? Which in turn implies that he knows he will want to find him again. Which implies that he really doesn't want to lose him.
Seen like that, it seemed like a piece of strategy, or a move in a game, or a particularly ambivalent trick in a very complicated courtship. ("We may be no good to each other now, but I'm not letting you get away from me, and I'll come back for you when I'm ready.")
This too holds future promise. It's twisted, but I can like it on that basis.
I still miss the Jack/Jack pairing: dance, soulmate, old-fashioned romance, that kind of thing.
Jack does it so well. I also loved Jack's con-man seduction of Rose: far more complex than it at first seemed. The beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Jack/Ianto fangirls must have been very satisfied with the emotional side of the DW finale.
Oh, yes. That hurt at first but on reflection, it's rather nice, too. Perhaps now the Torchwood writers won't back off from it so much. It will be less of an enigma. Perhaps the previous reticence was because we were still only too often in Gwen's point of view, and Gwen knew nothing about their affair and (I assume) knows virtually nothing about Ianto himself; but they did give us that glimpse of the opening moves in their relationship, the stopwatch scene; I hope this is the door to more revelations.
But if the odds and ends of spoilers I've heard mean anything, they have other complications in mind for Jack, too.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-19 09:43 pm (UTC)It's very, very ambiguous. RTD tried to put too many things together in the finale. He wanted to give both Martha and Jack a closure, while the biggest closure belongs to the Master. It turns out to be an emotional mess. There's nothing to be sure of.
"Another ray of hope for me comes from one of the things that bothered me: the Doctor made Jack's time manipulator inoperable, effectively trapping Jack in our present."
I still don't know how to think about this one. If I'm Jack, I guess I won't appreciate it much, though I'm certain the Doctor has rights to pull this one. However, it didn't seem to bother Jack. So I think your interpretation is the right one. OMG, they ARE twisted. Does love mean 'imprison someone, don't let him/her escape from me' in the Time Lord culture? If we can judge by the behaviours of the tenth Doctor and the Master, I guess the answer is 'yes'.
Well, I don't think RTD have ever been thinking this much. He only wanted to find a way to make sure Torchwood Three's stories would be tied to the 21st Century Earth.
"I also loved Jack's con-man seduction of Rose: far more complex than it at first seemed. The beginning of a beautiful friendship."
Conclusion: an ideal Jack romance should be smooth as velvet. It should always involve nostalgia: some old music, some period military, and some beautiful (or beautifully twisted) friendship.
"But if the odds and ends of spoilers I've heard mean anything, they have other complications in mind for Jack, too."
You mean the casting spoiler? ;)
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 02:11 pm (UTC)Hence no closure at all, anywhere. Not even with the Master, because of the ring at the end. (And who ever believes the major archenemy in any series is permanently dead?)
If I'm Jack, I guess I won't appreciate it much, though I'm certain the Doctor has rights to pull this one.
Why do you think he had the right? I'd have said the Doctor didn't have the right to curtail Jack's movements - Jack's power to travel in time didn't come from the Doctor (except insofar as the Doctor repaired his broken equipment) and Jack was a time traveller long before the Doctor met him. I can't see that the Doctor had a right to judge Jack at that point, in terms of his activities - Jack has just helped to save the world. He treated Jack like a mischicvous child. It looks like bullying to me!
Come to think of it, I'm not sure which of them would be the mischievous child. Hmm.
That being said, I don't think Jack particularly minds what the Doctor did - it imprisons him, yes (as if he needed more of that!) but it imprisons him pretty much when and where he wants to be, and doesn't rule out change to the situation. Aside from that, I think Jack would agree to anything the Doctor wanted, however unreasonable, just because the Doctor wanted it. If he has just endured a year of bondage thanks to the Master, he can endure a different kind of containment thanks to the Doctor. And the year of bondage with the Master was, essentially, the Doctor's choice, which Jack endured for the Doctor's sake. Given his choice, he would have killed the Master long before it came to that. So Jack's suffering was all essentially for the sake of the Doctor's love of the Master.
OMG, they ARE twisted.
Yes.
Does love mean 'imprison someone, don't let him/her escape from me' in the Time Lord culture? If we can judge by the behaviours of the tenth Doctor and the Master, I guess the answer is 'yes'.
Yes. I can't think of any way around that.
He only wanted to find a way to make sure Torchwood Three's stories would be tied to the 21st Century Earth.
Yes, and of course RTD has the power to change it around at any time any way he likes. He wants time travel for Jack? Bring back the Doctor to wave the sonic screwdriver, or have Jack figure out a way to fix the vortex manipulator, or open the Rift, or have another Time Agent come by, or - whatever! Easy for him.
And I personally would love to see Jack do more time travelling. Let's see him meet Shakespeare and Brannigan and Tim Latimer.
Conclusion: an ideal Jack romance should be smooth as velvet. It should always involve nostalgia: some old music, some period military, and some beautiful (or beautifully twisted) friendship.
I'm happy with that! Think of the three significant relationships we've seen in Jack's life (not counting the Doctor) - Rose, Estelle, and Captain Jack Harkness. All happened during World War II, all involved dancing.
You mean the casting spoiler? ;)
I do mean the casting spoiler.
OMG, they ARE twisted.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 06:12 pm (UTC)I hate RTD for even trying to convince us New Schoolers that it was a closure.
"I'd have said the Doctor didn't have the right to curtail Jack's movements - Jack's power to travel in time didn't come from the Doctor (except insofar as the Doctor repaired his broken equipment) and Jack was a time traveller long before the Doctor met him."
Since it's the Doctor repaired the broken equipment, he had the right to take the power back. However, this definitely couldn't justify the Doctor's behaviour in any way. When I first saw it, I couldn't believe my eyes. I don't know why, I just can't picture Nine doing this in my head.
"Come to think of it, I'm not sure which of them would be the mischievous child."
Ten looks very much like a teenager to me. Now Jack is the adult of the pair.
"If he has just endured a year of bondage thanks to the Master, he can endure a different kind of containment thanks to the Doctor."
The Time Lords are kinky bastards. Now I wonder if they understand love outside the bondage, or if it's only a thing with Ten and Simm!Master. Come to think of it, I can picture Jack with anyone, in any pairing, but not with Saxon.
"So Jack's suffering was all essentially for the sake of the Doctor's love of the Master."
This is a little too much to endure, don't you think? Asking anyone to pay that high a price, his/her love will eventually break off, given enough time. You know, sometimes I simply can't take LotTL seriously. They didn't really go there like people in BSG. They just skipped it. After one year of nightmare, I expect Jack and Martha would at least change somehow. They didn't. It's both an emotional mess and an emotional blank. I don't expect emotinal truth in TV land, but this is too much a cop-out.
"And I personally would love to see Jack do more time travelling. Let's see him meet Shakespeare and Brannigan and Tim Latimer."
Me too! Shakespeare would have great fun with him. Oh the hotness. I don't think Jack/JB is a cat person, though.
"I do mean the casting spoiler."
I'd like to see what comes out of it.
"OMG, they ARE twisted."
You bet they are! *sigh*
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 06:39 pm (UTC)Yes - very bad move, conceptually. Total failure on all counts.
I couldn't believe my eyes. I don't know why, I just can't picture Nine doing this in my head.
Me too. The funny thing is, it was in "Utopia" (and no doubt because of Jack) that I saw Nine and Ten as the same person for the first time. But "The Last of the Time Lords" polarized them. I see Ten as being more crazy, more arbitrary, more reckless.
Jack does seem more adult than Ten, but Ten still has ageless-wisdom/experience aspects.... An interesting juxtaposition!
I can picture Jack with anyone, in any pairing, but not with Saxon.
I can't imagine Jack willingly having sex with Saxon under any circumstances, which, given Jack's usual nature, is rather amazing.
sometimes I simply can't take LotTL seriously. They didn't really go there like people in BSG. They just skipped it.
The problem is that the story does make sense. It particularly doesn't make psychological sense. Even when we parse it into symbolic sense it doesn't add up. And I thought the writing in new Doctor Who till that point was so good - sometimes fell a little flat, but "The Last of the Time Lords" isn't flat at all, it's chaotic.
The Time Lords are kinky bastards. Now I wonder if they understand love outside the bondage
I don't see bondage connotations in the Nine/Rose relationship, or Nine/Jack, or Ten/Rose, or even Ten/Martha, as he keeps trying to let her go. But obviously that's not the whole story... Perhaps accumulated guilts, the situation with Master, pushed Ten psychologically beyond his normal range.
It's both an emotional mess and an emotional blank. I don't expect emotional truth in TV land, but this is too much a cop-out.
A situation too extreme to just re-set and carry on, at least without more explanation than we got. Yes, BSG handled it well, including the twisted relationship of Starbuck and Lee Adama - where I can see parallels if you cast Leoban as the Master, Starbuck as the Doctor, and Lee as Jack. (And Anders as, um, Martha? Ianto? My analogy is breaking down.)
I don't think Jack is a cat person either, but it'd be fun to see the interaction.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 10:01 pm (UTC)Guess that's why now I'm not very interested in Master/Jack fics set in the year which never was, because it would be only violence, not sex. How do I come to this? I had imagined Jack in Master's dungeon even before the Master arrived *g* Maybe I'm not as evil as I thought I was?
And the two actors' chemistry is all wrong. Given Jack's usually wonderful chemistry with everyone else and Simm!Master's very good chemistry with both Ten and Lucy Saxon, it is rather amazing.
"It particularly doesn't make psychological sense."
That's it. With this whole unrequited love thing, they really wrote all the characters into a dead-end, so every character had to back off, at least for a while.
"I don't see bondage connotations in the Nine/Rose relationship, or Nine/Jack, or Ten/Rose, or even Ten/Martha, as he keeps trying to let her go."
No, I don't see, either. It's only a Time Lord/Time Lord thing, then. Maybe Jack applies to this rule because he's...immortal, hence more equal to a Time Lord?
"BSG handled it well, including the twisted relationship of Starbuck and Lee Adama - where I can see parallels if you cast Leoban as the Master, Starbuck as the Doctor, and Lee as Jack. (And Anders as, um, Martha? Ianto? My analogy is breaking down.)"
Yes, I can see the parallels with BSG, with Leoban/Starbuck as Master/Doctor, Jack as Lee and Martha as Anders.
"I don't think Jack is a cat person either, but it'd be fun to see the interaction."
I bet Brannigan likes Jack as much as he finds Jack annoying.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-20 10:46 pm (UTC)That's part of my problem. The other half is: I don't find the Master all that attractive. Most of fandom seems enchanted with the Master, and I'm not. He's interesting, he has some good lines, but I don't find him very sexy. So... there's nothing there for me to focus.
I had imagined Jack in Master's dungeon even before the Master arrived *g*
Yes. Regrouping, I guess.
It's only a Time Lord/Time Lord thing, then. Maybe Jack applies to this rule because he's...immortal, hence more equal to a Time Lord?
Maybe. Or maybe we have some bit of information missing. Something Ten knows that we don't.
I bet Brannigan likes Jack as much as he finds Jack annoying.
I think his wife would like Jack but he'd find Jack annoying and Jack would give him a hard time.
For me, it would have been easier then!
Maybe I'm not as evil as I thought I was?
Oh, surely that can't be the case!
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-21 12:03 am (UTC)I can only say: in our time, evil=hot.
I hate times like this, it's like I'm being left cold by the whole fandom. I used to find Ianto as a character not that fascinating, too. I think he was very, very cute and I'd like to read some fics about him, or about him and Jack, but certainly not to find every one of the fics is about him.
John Simm certainly isn't physically attractive. To find Simm!Master unattractive is perfectly understandable. (Am I the only one who thinks Mr Simm looks like Tintin?) And the writing of the Master is rather silly. He did turn out to have very good chemistry with David Tennant, though. I'd never thought that. Nice surprise.
I've been watching Steve Moffat's 'Jekyll' recently and simply loathe James Nesbitt in it. Then I happened to rewatch DW with a friend, from 'Utopia' to LotTL. Having seen Nesbitt's Jekyll/Hyde, this time I not only think Sir Derek Jacobi is a God, but also find the Simm!Master a whole lot better. When I finished 'Jekyll', I may even find Simm!Master as charismatic as some people said. Who knows.
Well, since I'm doomed to be among the minority, at least this time I can comfort myself that Sam Tyler(John Simm) in 'Life on Mars' cries far better than Ianto in 'Cyberwoman'...
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-21 01:25 am (UTC)To some extent, I can relate to that - thinking of my reactions to seeing pictures of Christopher Eccleston as the Black Rider in "The Dark is Rising". But that's because it's Christopher Eccleston.... Yeah. The Master struck me as interesting but not hot. Not even when the Doctor was holding him - though the Doctor was hot, for sure!
I have similar reactions to Ianto as you do, not because I don't like the character, I do; but because we don't know enough about him, and because the fics tend to have nowhere to go - they strike me as being usually either bland or out of character. I hope they add to the complexity in Torchwood series 2. I find the other Jack sexier and more interesting because of the way he was portrayed, but the situation leaves very little room for fic or speculation: what we saw is what we get. Jack/Doctor was my standby.
(Am I the only one who thinks Mr Simm looks like Tintin?)
I'd never thought of that!
the writing of the Master is rather silly.
Which is why he reminds me of The Joker in Batman - and I don't find the Joker sexy, either! Truth to tell, I don't even find the Master very evil, because he isn't cunning or complex, he's just wilful and crazy - he does whatever he wants and has no conscience.
I've been watching Steve Moffat's 'Jekyll' recently and simply loathe James Nesbitt in it.
I saw James Nesbitt in something (I forget which) and didn't like him at all. I was going to try watching "Jekyll", though, just because Steven Moffat wrote it and I like his writing. Is John Simm in the show? I was rather bored by "Life on Mars", but I only saw the first two episodes, and so many people have told me the show was good that I think I should maybe try it again.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-21 10:27 pm (UTC)Christopher Eccleston can be so regal. While John Simm is also the northern angst type, he doesn't have the gravitas at all. Oh how I miss Nine on the show.
Come to think of it, David Tennant isn't that good at playing dark stuff, either, although he IS hot *g* It's 'Dalek' back in the first series which really hooked me on 'Doctor Who'. The episode wouldn't turn out as well with Tennant as the lead. Also when Ten said how he believed in Rose in the second series, he didn't really manage to convince me. While Nine basically said nothing at all, I believed that he believed in Rose, any day.
"I have similar reactions to Ianto as you do, not because I don't like the character, I do; but because we don't know enough about him, and because the fics tend to have nowhere to go - they strike me as being usually either bland or out of character."
When I first watched Torchwood the series, Ianto was my favourite character after Jack. However, after tons and tons of fics, he begins to tire me. The problem is that the character has nothing to defend himself against my dislike, since we know nothing about him. I hope he'll get some more decent writing in the second series.
"Which is why he reminds me of The Joker in Batman - and I don't find the Joker sexy, either! Truth to tell, I don't even find the Master very evil, because he isn't cunning or complex, he's just wilful and crazy - he does whatever he wants and has no conscience."
I don't find the Joker sexy, nor the Master very evil. The most chilling kind of evil is always the kind that we can find in our own heart. (Preparing a soundtrack for the end of the world is human, though.)
Frankly, I have problems seeing Simm!Master as the big baddie. Maybe he'd be a good minion...
"I was going to try watching 'Jekyll', though, just because Steven Moffat wrote it and I like his writing. Is John Simm in the show?"
No, John Simm isn't in 'Jekyll'. Anyone would be better than James Nesbitt, though. I nearly gave up on the show after watching fifty minutes full of him.
"I was rather bored by 'Life on Mars', but I only saw the first two episodes, and so many people have told me the show was good that I think I should maybe try it again."
Yes, the British simply adore it, don't they? My feelings towards 'Life on Mars' are a bit complicated. I used to love the first series, which is no wonder since I always enjoy nostalgia themes, the dealing with father issues and buddy cop shows, but the second series (especially the finale) let me down. It was only until then I began to see all the deep flaws in the first series. Now I nearly hate this show. However, I should say all the actors in it had done a brilliant job.
Re: Part 2 reply: Jack and the Doctor
Date: 2007-07-23 02:24 pm (UTC)So do I! Though Tennant makes a delightful Doctor, I find him much less nuanced, and he seldom shows the simultaneous extremes of temperament that Eccleston seemed to portray so effortlessly. I found his version of the Doctor more integrated. And whether it was good acting or good writing or both, he made better sense.
when Ten said how he believed in Rose in the second series, he didn't really manage to convince me. While Nine basically said nothing at all, I believed that he believed in Rose, any day.
I believed in the love, but I'm not sure I believed that Ten had the depths of feeling that Nine had. Even in times of heavy angst - even though we saw the Doctor crying, for goodness' sake! - it seemed more superficial to me, while nothing with Nine seemed superficial. Nothing!
Another thought: it can't be just Tennant's acting, because I don't get this sense of transient emotion (or superficiality) in any of his other roles. Even in Casanova, where I had problems with the plot, but not with Tennant's acting or characterization of the role.
And 'superficial' might not even be the word I want, since even Tennant's Doctor doesn't seem shallow. But he oversteps a line between "deep and understandable emotional psychology" and "alien quirkiness" in a vaguely unrepairable way. He's elusive. Nine was *always* emotionally present. Visibly so. Ten seldom is. We just get glimpses of the emotional reality.
Come to think of it, David Tennant isn't that good at playing dark stuff, either, although he IS hot *g*
Yes. Very hot. He smoulders beautifully. They should give him more changes to smoulder. But ... it tends to be a short-term thing. He can be magnificent in his rage - but it does seem transient and maybe therefore, in the long range, insufficient. I get less sense of his underlying strength. Nine also lived by improvisation but gave the impression that his whims contained powerful and magnificent force. I don't get that with Tennant - which is okay - I'm really not sure how much of this in either case is the script or the action or simply the interpretation.
I do think they have shifted themes in mid-story, though, which doesn't help.
Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler
Date: 2007-07-23 02:25 pm (UTC)The fics tired me very soon and I (mostly) stopped reading them. I didn't write many, either. There wasn't quite enough to work with. So we got into patterns of fic: angsty Ianto before "Cyberwoman"; angsty Ianto after "Cyberwoman"; angsty Ianto after "End of Days"... I'd like to do more with Ianto but until the show gives me more to work with, or unless I get a major bit of insight, it's a case of 'what you see is what you get'. I have a few Ianto ideas I'd like to play with - for instance, we know from the website that Tosh told Ianto something about Jack's relationship with Jack. I don't know if other people have written about Ianto's reaction but I'd like to play with that - if I can think of something that isn't just "angsty Ianto feels sorry for himself".
I hope he'll get some more decent writing in the second series.
I do too! I want to see Ianto be heroic! I think it was his betrayal of Jack in "End of Days" that made me a little gunshy where Ianto was concerned. I thought his loyalty and his love were stronger than that.
I think my best effort writing Ianto was "Mourning Rights" and that wasn't even really about him, it was about Rhys and Gwen. But indirectly and rather significantly it was also an Ianto story, and maybe that's the way I should try to write him - from other people's points of view. Have I written Jack's point of view concerning Ianto? I don't think I have, come to think of it. And there's a good reason for it - I'm really not sure what Jack's point of view of Ianto is. I feel certain that I know how he feels about the Doctor, adn the other Jack, even Gwen - but Ianto? I really don't know.
The most chilling kind of evil is always the kind that we can find in our own heart. (Preparing a soundtrack for the end of the world is human, though.)
The Master has great moments, great bits. The scene where I find him chilling and scary and yes, even sexy, is when he's walking down the street looking for Martha - and finding her. That put chills down my back. But it wasn't sustained.
I have problems seeing Simm!Master as the big baddie. Maybe he'd be a good minion...
He would be!
Anyone would be better than James Nesbitt, though.
This I fear. I haven't found the nerve (or the time) to watch it yet.
Yes, the British simply adore it, don't they?
They do, and I know Canadians who love it, but I don't see what they see. Perhaps they just like John Simm more than I do? There are scenes I was shown as 'the good bits' that didn't seem any more interesting to me than what I'd thought were 'the boring bits'. But to be fair, I might have become interested in the story if I'd persevered past two episodes. Maybe. I usually like father issues and buddy cops, too.
Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler
Date: 2007-07-26 11:52 pm (UTC)Yes, I remember 'Mourning Rights' very well. As little as we know about Ianto, writing him from other people's points of view is a better idea.
"I think it was his betrayal of Jack in 'End of Days' that made me a little gunshy where Ianto was concerned."
Me too. I don't understand his choice, not like with Owen or Gwen. And his betrayal makes me even more unsure of him.
"Perhaps they just like John Simm more than I do?"
LOL! Maybe that's the case. While I don't think very high of Simm!master nor think Mr Simm is sexy, I do think he's a very good TV actor. I have a strong respect for any actor who can cry four times in an episode and get away with it.
Re: Part 3 reply: Jack, Ianto and Sam Tyler
Date: 2007-07-27 02:50 pm (UTC)A lot of the fun is in the relationships, and the many directions in which they work. The problem with Ianto, as I see it, is that the central most interesting core of the Jack/Ianto relationship - and particularly what it means to Jack - has been withheld from us. But that might be a strength, too, as it can be explored in different ways without contradicting canon.
I like using the 'outsider' view of our beloved characters, which is why it's fun to me to write from Rhys' point of view. Especially his view of Jack.
I don't understand his choice, not like with Owen or Gwen. And his betrayal makes me even more unsure of him.
I believe he loves Jack. But his inner life is obscure to me. I must write my 'why Ianto did what he did' story. Soon. Before next series begins.
I have a strong respect for any actor who can cry four times in an episode and get away with it.
Was that in "Life on Mars"? No doubt he's good! He's different, that's what I most admire -no trite or easy performances.