Doctor Who: Journey's End...

[fajrdrako]

Well. End of another series. I'm going to miss this show very much indeed.

I watched this with Sheila. We had a bit of a marathon, starting with "Turn Left" and then "The Stolen Earth" before watching "Journey's End". It was nice to see the continuity.

Brief comments on 'Journey's End':

1. Russell T Davies does seem to be plugging the holes and bringing back themes and plot points from all his previous seasons. Lots of 'reset' buttons being pushed.
   
   
2. Loved the events at Torchwood - a time-locked fortress within Cardiff. And Tosh's doing, too - she saves them again from beyond the grave. I love it too that Jack had total faith they'd be alive when he got home, despite all indications.
   
   
3. Captain Jack was wonderful in this episode. Just the way I like to see him. Well, actually, I'd have liked much more focus on him, and something more personal with the Doctor, but that's all right. The Doctor showed both appreciation and respect for him, the personal connection was there. My craving for the relationship between them elicited all sorts of good signs, even an implication that the Doctor, in his own flighty fashion, stays in touch with Jack.
   
   I was disappointed that the Doctor sabotaged the vortex manipulator again. Why's he so determined to keep Jack in one time? I also think Jack can fix the wristband, so it's a moot point. I am not unhappy.
   
   
4. Does this mean Mickey will join Torchwood? I'm not sure I like that. I liked Mickey's role in Doctor Who mainly because of his connection with Rose. There is an interesting rationale for him on Torchwood: he's had experience in the other universe. Do I like Mickey enough to want him there? So far, no, but it all depends on the writing and the characterization. This is not the Mickey of series 1. Must remember that.
   
   
5. The Doctor removed Donna's memories of him. Did we know he could do that?
   
   
6. nina_ds had talked about 'noisy' episodes in this show, especially as finales, and I think it was. I liked it - even liked its noisiness - but there were so many pyrotechnics, so many wild tricks - I would have liked a quiet moment somewhere. I was moved, but it was all... in a big way.
   
   
7. So did Donna become a sort of Bad Wolf herself? The Time Lord human? As a woman with a Time Lord brain, she was funny. I loved her as a companion, and will miss her.
   
   
8. Jackie didn't have much of a role. I can't think why her presence was necessary to the story. Just for nostalgia's sake?
   
   
9. Loved the explanation, hinted at before, that a TARDIS is meant to be run by six people. So why doesn't the Doctor travel with five companions? Perhaps because he likes his independence - one or two companions is good company, but more than that would crimp his style.
   
   
10. Rose now has her Doctor. I'm not sure I like the implication that a mortal can only love or live with another mortal - Ianto and Jack are doing fine with their asymmetrical affair. Our Doctor couldn't tell Rose he loved her because she would then never have left him. I'm not sure why she had to go back to her other universe, but I'm not sorry she did.
    
    I have always liked the implication that the Doctor was upset by their parting in "Doomsday" not so much because they wereseparated (though he missed her) but because she had gone to that universe unwillingly, and was desperately unhappy with it. Now she can be content there. Though if I was her, I'd still prefer to be with the Time Lord, travelling in time and space.
    
    
11. Loved it that Donna fancied Jack.
    
    
12. Loved Gramps better than ever, and it was nice to see Sylvia sticking up for Donna. I love it that Gramps will remember the Doctor and Donna's adventures with him.
    
    
13. Loved Action!Martha. I find it interesting that Tom Milligan was not so much as mentioned in this episode or last. It's the end of the world, and Martha subconsciously chooses to be with her mother and not her fiancé? That strikes me as odd.
    
    
14. Is Dalek Caan still alive? He was not recreated from Davros' body, so I would assume he is. And the Daleks may return in future.
    
    
15. The human Doctor destroyed the Daleks. Another connection, I assume, between humans and violence? Again, the Doctor is exculpated? Or is he? In this case, he didn't kill Daleks... he mostly just observed what was going on.
    
    I loved the discussion of his guilt: Davros pointing out that he may not use weapons but he has more or less trained humans as weapons. But they have their own free will, and the Doctor has his own guilty conscience. I loved all of that.
    
    I found Davros more interesting here than in "The Stolen Earth".
    
    
16. I loved the force-filed prisons and the time-lock shields and so many of the alien-tech gimmicks. Including especially the use of the TARDIS. Tossing it into the incineratior! Woo.
    
    
17. Loved it that Jack used his inability to die to outwit the Daleks, or try to.
    
    
18. Am I right that Martha still has her teleportation device? Cool.
    
    
19. I can hardly wait for more Sarah Jane Adventures. I hope we see more of Martha, too. Though I generally like the way Rose was used in series 4, I'm just as happy if we don't see her again. And Donna? They seem to have effectively written her out - though not necessarily. She could always meet the Doctor again. Two coincidental meetings - why not a third? Which she would think was the first.
    
    Though of course even without other workings of Destiny, their second meeting wasn't by chance: she'd been looking for him in the likely places for more than a year.
    
    
20. I cried. I can't remember when I cried, but I did. Not at the end. Somewhere in the middle.
    
    
21. The hand grew into the human Doctor, right? And no longer exists as a hand. Pity. I liked that hand.
    
    
22. So what do I do now? Watch series 4 over again? Better still, watch series 1, 2, 3 and 4 again, topped off with Sarah Jane Adventures and Torchwood? It feels like a long time till I'll get anything new.
    

Comments

[catslash.livejournal.com]

I was disappointed that the Doctor sabotaged the vortex manipulator again. Why's he so determined to keep Jack in one time?

because the Doctor thinks he knows best. For everyone. Always. Just ask Harriet Jones. Or Donna. Oh, wait. YOU CAN'T.

Not that I'm going to be furious over this episode for quite some time or anything.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

because the Doctor thinks he knows best.

Well, yes, but why would he think that was best for Jack? Or why it would benefit him to have Jack in one time or place? I like to think it's because that way he can find him easily. Or phone him on the bat-phone or something.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

I always figured it was because he didn't like the idea of Jack being a loose cannon all over time and space, and also because he likes to control things whenever he can. He's never really caught up with the idea of Jack having a sense of responsibility. He speaks as though he respects Jack, but he doesn't act like it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always figured it was because he didn't like the idea of Jack being a loose cannon all over time and space

Well, first of all, Jack isn't a loose cannon, and the Doctor knows that. And even if he were, the Doctor doesn't usually try to confine people whether they are loose cannons or not. He likes chaos in the universe.

and also because he likes to control things whenever he can.

He does? He likes to fix things. I don't see much desire for control.

He's never really caught up with the idea of Jack having a sense of responsibility.

I'm not sure I'm convinced of that. Or of the opposite. He knows Jack died for him in fighting the Daleks - I'd think that should earn a little trust. He knows Jack showed a lot of responsibility over 150 years on Earth. He isn't stupid or judgemental about people - not usually. If anything, he tends to allow second chances. (But not third chances.)

You may be right, but I haven't found a way to make it make psychological sense yet.

He speaks as though he respects Jack, but he doesn't act like it.

But only with regard to this one detail. Perhaps, with his sense of precognition, he is aware of implications we haven't been told? Perhaps he sees it as a way to protect Earth, or to protect Jack?

[catslash.livejournal.com]

You know, I think you and I tend to take our entertainment in very differently. We both happily think it to death, but that's about where the similarity ends. I've noticed that I tend to be much more cynical as a viewer, and you're more generous. I do have a darker view of the show. I don't think the Doctor is a very nice person, and I think Ten specifically is kind of an asshole, and that makes me markedly less inclined to view his actions kindly. I do honestly think he believes it safer to keep Jack in one spot. Why or who for, I don't know, but definitely safer. I think his revulsion regarding Jack's immortality influences him more than he thinks it does, not that I particularly blame him for that; if it's as bone-deep as was implied, it's hardly his fault.

I do like reading and discussing your posts, though! It's interesting to hear the thoughts of someone with so different a perspective, plus you make me think more closely about what I'm saying.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

We both happily think it to death, but that's about where the similarity ends.

Yes, but it's an interesting place to start!

I've noticed that I tend to be much more cynical as a viewer, and you're more generous.

I think I have two modes of watching. There's the way I watch the shows I love, the ones I get emotionally involved with - where I am very generous in my viewing, loving to explain plot holes with imagination and poking at the subtext while (largely) ignoring the non-fictional aspects - that is, buying happily into the myth. Unless something jolts me out of that. Usually done, if at all, with a moralistic point or characterizational anomaly.

Then there are the rest of the shows on television, with which I am super-critical and usually don't watch because they annoy me so.

I same my rather colossal sense of textual romance for the shows I love.

I don't think the Doctor is a very nice person

I thought Nine was a rather nice person. Ten is not, but for some reason that doesn't bother me.

I think Ten specifically is kind of an asshole, and that makes me markedly less inclined to view his actions kindly.

He's often and asshole, but I do tend to view him in a favourable light, or at least, usually, a non-judgemental one. I still don't quite forgive him for the events of "The Last of the Time Lords", but I can live with the difference. I don't get what I want with him - and I did get what I wanted with Nine, even the Jack/Doctor kiss. But there are enough twists and perks with Ten that he keeps me happy nonetheless.

It isn't that I'm easy to please, it's that the Doctor has characteristics I love despite the slips.

I do honestly think he believes it safer to keep Jack in one spot. Why or who for, I don't know, but definitely safer.

Perhaps this will be explored in future. I refuse to believe it's just the desire of the writers, for convenience in writing Torchwood - and yes, I can believe it has to do with the Doctor's prejudice against Jack, which isn't as bad as it was. At least he isn't leaving Jack to lonely abandonment among corpses.

It's interesting to hear the thoughts of someone with so different a perspective, plus you make me think more closely about what I'm saying.

I agree absolutely. How dull it would be, if everyone saw it the way I do! I also don't want to think I mindlessly accept what they say, without though. I don't want to be easily led.

But I do love the Doctor, whether it's Nine or Ten, and I am happy to have imperfect, flawed, and dangerous heroes - as long as he treats Jack with at least a surface decency.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

Then there are the rest of the shows on television, with which I am super-critical and usually don't watch because they annoy me so.

Hee. Good call.

I am not generally a romantic sort of person. I can be, certainly - I am just as capable of being reduced to a pile of mush as anyone - but overall I tend to take a more pragmatic view of things. I'll excuse flaws more easily in something I like (see: our previous discussion of Moffat's storytelling), but if a show leads to me to expect a high level of quality, I come to hold it to very high standards indeed. If it starts consistently failing to live up to those standards, I will start ripping at it.

My interpretation of the Doctor's character is fairly complex, which suits a complex character. Nine was, I think, more prone to moments of kindness, but he could also be quite harsh (Adam stranded with a forehead that opens at the snap of someone's fingers? Appropriate in a poetic sort of way, maybe, but harsh). Ten seems oblivious to other people, and he is sometimes; not always, though, and not as often as he seems to be, I don't think. He affects obliviousness as it suits him, consciously or not. He knows this about himself, too, as indicated by his regret over Martha.

And while the whole thing with the wristband is indeed a writerly manipulation for TW's sake (it must be, because I doubt it would be difficult to convince Ten that teleportation technology could prove to be the vital difference in a mission someday), we're stuck with finding a way to make it work on a character level for ourselves. For me, with my more cynical take on the Doctor, it's because there is some deeply buried level on which he simply doesn't trust Jack and probably never will just because of what Jack is. There are a million things he will entrust Jack with without hesitation, yes, but at the same time, he wants to keep Jack where he can see him.

Frankly, I don't disagree with him here. Jack is, by the very nature of his unnatural state of being (the human mind is not built to live forever) and everything he has gone through, an unstable individual. It's not a bad idea at all to ensure that he stays "captive" and able to wreak havoc on only one planet and one time period for as long as possible.

None of this is at all to say I dislike the Doctor, or Ten, or Nine. I love them. As I said, the Doctor is a complex character, and I enjoy seeing what he'll do or say next, even if I don't always like what it is. He's a wonderful creation precisely because there are things about him that kinda suck. If he were perfect, he'd be boring.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I am not generally a romantic sort of person.

While I am the essential romantic, probably the most romantically-inclined person you will ever meet. That doesn't mean I have a special taste for mush (I don't), or that I see the world through pink-coloured glasses, but I have a certain perspective that veers away from the pragmatic to the emotional and the heroic.

if a show leads to me to expect a high level of quality, I come to hold it to very high standards indeed. If it starts consistently failing to live up to those standards, I will start ripping at it.

I'm the same that way. If a show raises the standard (as Doctor Who does), then it should live up to that standard. Because demonstrably it can.

Nine was, I think, more prone to moments of kindness, but he could also be quite harsh

Granted. But I never felt his harshness was arbitrary. He judged people - look at his reaction to Mickey in "Rose". (Justified, I always felt!) Ten often has a different outlook - he likes Mickey. As an example. How would Ten treat Adam?

Ten ... He affects obliviousness as it suits him, consciously or not. He knows this about himself, too, as indicated by his regret over Martha.

Good point. Which is why it seems... I'm not sure what word to use. Wilful? Deliberate? Cruel, sometimes? Yet I feel he's being cruel to himself as often as to others, or more - and harsher in his self-judgements sometimes. Nine often became angry, but had a sense of interior tragedy. Seems to me that Ten is filled with anger, but expresses it indirectly.

the whole thing with the wristband is indeed a writerly manipulation for TW's sake

Yes. That, obviously, is the writer's motivation - but I need to decipher the Doctor's unspoken motivation. And I don't quite have it yet. I am hampered by a few things such as desperately wanting to believe he really does value Jack.

with my more cynical take on the Doctor, it's because there is some deeply buried level on which he simply doesn't trust Jack and probably never will just because of what Jack is.

Which "what"? Con man? Time Agent? Torchwood? Fixed point? Immortal? Soldier? All of the above? Given the Doctor's attitude to his human self in "Journey's End", I can imagine him blaming Jack for shooting and killing Dalek's on the Game Station, even though he himself sent him to do precisely that....

But I don't want to think Nine would see it that way.

Your logic that Jack is 'unstable' is understandable, but I don't see it. From what I've seen on screen, Jack seems much more stable than Ten.

I too enjoy the Doctor's complexity (good or bad) and enjoy the character much more when I can dissect and analyze and judge and reconsider him. Yes, I really do love him. That's why he's such fun to ponder - him and his motivations and his unspoken inner thoughts and feelings.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

- wow, did you just reply to this, or did LJ just totally fail on the e-mail alert?

I cannot even remember what we were discussing anymore, but I can pick up one or two threads.

Which "what"?

The frozen point in time thing. The Doctor's reaction to that is so instinctive and intrinsically part of being a Time Lord that I have a hard time believing he can dismiss it entirely. He can like Jack, respect Jack, value Jack - but there's always that primal "OH HELL NO" reaction on some level, no matter how deeply he buries it. I have to think that informs his overall method for dealing with Jack whether he wants it to or not. It's totally irrational and beyond his control.

Jack seems much more stable than Ten.

Yes, well - okay. You know those elements at the end of the periodic table? Those ones that get created, exist for like a second, and then go poof? Those are also more stable than Ten. ;)

Anyway, I was kind of understating myself. My take on Jack is, in brief, that his involuntary immortality and numerous, numerous deaths have driven him insane. I don't believe any human being could survive what he has with sanity intact, and his behavior on Torchwood consistently indicates that he is quite incapable of viewing the world from any sort of psychological perspective that a sane person could relate to. He is the only constant in his own life and he has lost touch with the idea that other peoples' lives count, too. He occasionally has moments of being able to remember that, but overall, he is one of the most screwed up characters on television and it drives me absolutely mental that the writers completely ignore that in favor of gay jokes.

So, yeah. I don't blame the Doctor for thinking twice about unleashing that on the universe at large any sooner than he can possibly avoid it. Perhaps he hopes that Jack's situation now will drive some sanity back into him and he'll start being able to empathize with other people again. I mean, if you accept the Face of Boe thing, then obviously something at some point went right. Maybe it was that.

. . . I have written about this so many times that at this point I could probably just go right ahead and compile and edit it all and call it a freaking thesis. XD The waste of potential that is Torchwood's take on Captain Jack Harkness really inspires my tl;dr side.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

did you just reply to this, or did LJ just totally fail on the e-mail alert?

[blush] I just replied to it. See, I have a bunch of really fascinating messages that I just totally failed to have time to respond to at the time they were made, so at the risk of confusing people utterly I'm answering now. Or, well, working on it.

I'm still fascinated by the same conversations. Why does life get in the way?

Re Jack as a still point: I would agree with you (because your answer is utterly canonical) but I'd love to find a loophole. It implies, for example, that Nine would have the same reaction to Jack now that Ten has - I have some trouble with that. It also implies that the situation is insoluble, which I don't want to believe. And thirdly, it doesn't answer the question of why the Doctor has a problem with Jack but not with the Face of Boe.

I also think that when Jack called the Doctor on this attitude as a 'prejudice', the Doctor tacitly acknowledged that he was right. A prejudice can be changed, whatever its origins. We have seen the Doctor change his mind before.

Moreover, this explanation doesn't fit my "grand unified theory about Ten and his relationships" which is, of course, a work in progress. It doesn't contradict it either. It's... another aspect for consideration.

As a slash fan who most loves the Jack/Doctor pairing, I have every vested intersted in arguing my way out of this somehow. Which means looking beyond the words... not contradicting them, but building on them.

You know those elements at the end of the periodic table? Those ones that get created, exist for like a second, and then go poof? Those are also more stable than Ten.

Ah. Yes. Valid point.

As for Jack: I guess your Jack is not my Jack. I see him as deeply sane, more than those around him. (Albeit inconsistently written.) "Sane" in not just a medical and psychological sense, but in a deeply spiritual, supernatural and metaphysical sense.

if you accept the Face of Boe thing, then obviously something at some point went right. Maybe it was that.

Maybe. Hmm. You are sparking ideas. Food for thought. Most interesting!

The waste of potential that is Torchwood's take on Captain Jack Harkness really inspires my tl;dr side.

I would agree with that. And I'm probably spending too much time thinking and writing about it for my own sanity, but I don't even care - I'm having too much fun with it.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

It implies, for example, that Nine would have the same reaction to Jack now that Ten has - I have some trouble with that.

Hmm. I don't think it would be the same. I don't think Nine would be so overtly hostile as Ten was in Utopia, for starters. I think he'd be more aware of the fact that it isn't Jack's fault, and that would inform his reactions, too. That "UGH" would still be there, but he'd respond to it differently. He's better at rational than Ten.

It doesn't answer the question of why the Doctor has a problem with Jack but not with the Face of Boe.

It just didn't have time to come up? He didn't have a lot of, uh, face time (sorry) with Boe, and - oh, Jesus, I hate that plot point. I know what I said in my last post, but frankly the only way I can deal with it is imagining that Jack was just messing with the Doctor. Which is illogical in both timing and execution and STILL isn't nearly as insulting to a person's intelligence. I can't even pretend to fanwank any further than that. I'm sorry.

As for Jack: I guess your Jack is not my Jack.

Yeah, your Jack and my Jack appear to be parallel opposites. Which suits our opposing approaches to fandom quite nicely, really. *g*

Maybe. Hmm. You are sparking ideas. Food for thought. Most interesting!

Thank you! That would be my theory if I were at all able to buy the Face of Boe thing, which I am not. But I thought it might appeal to you - it is a much kinder look at the Doctor's motivations.

I'm having too much fun with it.

Seriously. You would not know from this post that Jack is actually not one of the characters in the Whoniverse who really catches my attention as a fan - I don't feel nearly the sort of connection to him that I do to, say, Owen or Martha. He just interests me because of what he could be if the writers had any clue about writing decent characters. And I can't seem to leave that alone.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't think Nine would be so overtly hostile as Ten was in Utopia, for starters.

Very hard to imagine! He reserves that sort of reaction for Daleks.

He's better at rational than Ten.

And on the whole, better at patience and tolerance. Ten simmers and stews. Nine was able to be mellow, at least on occasion. Ten can be forgiving but I'm not sure what triggers that reaction, since on the whole, he does not forgive naturally or easily.

He didn't have a lot of, uh, face time (sorry) with Boe

Heh. Maybe that's it. He never did get to the room party I'm convinced Boe was holding in "The End of the World".

Jesus, I hate that plot point.

Yeah, I do too. And I'm never sure whether to try to find a way to deal with it, or just to go into denial and say it was a joke.

the only way I can deal with it is imagining that Jack was just messing with the Doctor. Which is illogical in both timing and execution and STILL isn't nearly as insulting to a person's intelligence.

Or that the Doctor was somehow messing with Jack? Someone's joke, either way. But that makes no sense.

I can't even pretend to fanwank any further than that. I'm sorry.

I have the same problem. Listed under "problematical aspects of the show" for ongoing consideration at various points.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

Listed under "problematical aspects of the show"

Personally, I have it categorized under "EPIC FAIL" right alongside "Jack and his coat survive nineteen hundred years of being buried alive with no bigger problems than artistic smudges of dirt."

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have it categorized under "EPIC FAIL"

LOL. That is the category I use only when I've given up on a show entirely. I'm far from that point. So: still poking and prodding the awkward bits.

right alongside "Jack and his coat survive nineteen hundred years of being buried alive with no bigger problems than artistic smudges of dirt."

This one doesn't bother me in the least; I revel in it. It's one of the things I loved most in series 2. (Well, along with dozens of other things. But it was a plus, and no problem for my imagination at all.)

But then, I'm into superheroes. I like the superheroic and supernatural aspects of Jack.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

I haaaaaaate it. So much. It's the straw that broke my back. Unless they pull off a casting coup rivalling Derek Jacobi showing up in Utopia for sheer awesome, I won't be back for series three. I can't even find a place to BEGIN with the stupid that is "Exit Wounds" (excepting, obviously, the amazingness of Burn and Naoko, like, way to write your two best actors off the show, guys), except to say that if they HAD to rip Angel off so unashamedly, couldn't they have picked a season that didn't suck?

*cough* /rant

Yeah, I didn't really like that episode. And for some reason, of all the myriad things that had me WTFing all over the place, it was the nineteen hundred years that just destroyed me. I don't think I will ever be able to explain why. It just DID.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

They ripped off Angel in "Exit Wounds"? No, no, don't tell me, I've just started watching Angel and don't want to be spoiled. Really. I've already seen dozens of Torchwood/Angel parallels. And I expect to see more.

"Exit Wounds" was a really stupid story and it's too bad, since it could have been great. But I loved the bit about Jack's burial: that redeemed the episode for me. That and a few other details and scenes and bits of character that I liked. But the story was badly written, and Gray and Captain John were wasted, stupidly wasted, and that's a shame.

But for reasons which confound understanding, I still love Torchwood with a passion I can't justify, I can just sit back and enjoy.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

They ripped off Angel in "Exit Wounds"?

Yes. Yes they did. You'll recognize it when you see it, believe me. I was so appalled. It is a charming sort of symmetry, though, since "End of Days" was a rip-off of BtVS. I wonder if the series three victim will be Firefly?

Ah, Gray. Yet more of a waste. Could have been SUCH A GOOD STORY.

Oh, Torchwood. You are silly scifi cheese and I really don't take you that seriously, so how is it that you turn me into a crazy person?!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the series three victim will be Firefly?

Maybe!

Could have been SUCH A GOOD STORY.

Yes. Really a pity what failed to happen.

You are silly scifi cheese and I really don't take you that seriously, so how is it that you turn me into a crazy person?!

LOL - I can't answer that. I have no idea why I love this silly show so much. And the associated fandom in all its facets. I don't understand it, but I'm enjoying every minute of it.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Granted. But I never felt his harshness was arbitrary. He judged people - look at his reaction to Mickey in "Rose". (Justified, I always felt!) Ten often has a different outlook - he likes Mickey. As an example. How would Ten treat Adam?

But Nine did change his attitude to Mickey over the course of the season. Yes, he wasn't impressed with him in Rose, but by the end of the Aliens of London two-parter he'd changed his mind because Mickey had risen to the occasion. IIRC, didn't he invite Mickey to join them and it was only because Mickey wasn't ready and didn't want Rose to know it that Nine made it look like he didn't want him around.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I did like the story of Mickey. Yes, Nine changes towards him; and Ten's attitude would grow from that. But it was still a different attitude. Compare Mickey's role in "Boom Town" to that in "School Reunion".

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

My way of explaining it is that Jack needs to find a home and a family (Torchwood), and the Dr. is making this possible by eliminating the time-travel temptation. Remember that John tries to tempt him with all the glories of the universe, and Jack insists on staying at Torchwood, like Christ rejected Satan's temptations in the desert.

Now does the Dr. have the right to determine what's good for Jack? Nah, but Jack always does that for everyone else, so it's nice to see the tables turned.

Jack and the Doctor...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My way of explaining it is that Jack needs to find a home and a family (Torchwood), and the Dr. is making this possible by eliminating the time-travel temptation.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure time-travel is a temptation for him... In any case, by taking away Jack's freedom to choose, isn't that destroying the moral element of choice?

I am happier to think it's the Doctor's way to try to keep Jack safe, rather than keeping the universe safe from Jack.

Now does the Dr. have the right to determine what's good for Jack? Nah, but Jack always does that for everyone else, so it's nice to see the tables turned.

Heh. They are so alike.

Re: Jack and the Doctor...

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

I agree-- I think it's incredibly high-handed of the Dr. to do that, but you know, Jack tends to be high-handed and do things for "your own good" without asking first, so maybe he kind of interprets it as a sign of love.

I doubt Jack would have stayed put all this time if he'd been able to travel freely-- he would have chased the Dr. instead of building the TW team. It's interesting, in a way, because there's a bit of a parallel with Angel. He started his own show in S3 of Buffy, and so there had to be reasons why he would leave her and stay away, and they didn't always make much sense.

At least I do feel like Dr. Who's action dismantling Jack's time strap and thus making it possible for him to have his own show makes more sense than the Angel one. :)

Re: Jack and the Doctor...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

so maybe he kind of interprets it as a sign of love.

I think he interprets any action on the Doctor's part in a positive light. Not an attitude I share, but I do quite love it that Jack feels that way.

I've been planning on writing a thing about the parallels between Jack and Angel. I like Jack umpteen times more but I see parallels all over the place. Maybe when I finish watching the first season of Buffy I'll list parallels I've noticed.

[liliaeth]

Or because he likes to know where to find Jack, easier to do so when he's stuck in one time. He might want to visit you know.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I hope he does visit. Often and frequently. I really do.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

The Doctor has become a self-righteous hypocritical controlling git!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The Doctor has become a self-righteous hypocritical controlling git!

When do you think this started? With "The Christmas Invasion"? That would imply it's characteristic of Ten but wasn't of Nine. Or am I misjudging?

At some point he shifted from changing people's lives to help them, to changing people's lives arbitrarily and judgementally. I'm trying to figure out how this happened, and when, and I'm still stuggling with it.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

With the Christmas Invasion. It's a feature exclusive to Ten.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm trying to argue myself out of believing that, but the evidence is the evidence, and clearly time-stamped. That was when he changed more than just his looks.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

I can't wait for eleven! I wish he had done a full regeneration in Journey's End.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wish he had done a full regeneration in Journey's End.

How cool that would have been. Just think how fandom would have been astonished. (We were astonished as it was.)

So what do you think Eleven will, or should be, like?

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

I wish he were a bit more like Methos. "Just because I don't like to fight doesn't I don't know how." He often seems to want to surrender first. He seems to be afraid of guns and self-defense. I wish he were a little bit more like Three(?) who was friends with the Brigadier.

More like Eight or Nine. I wish we could bring Gallifrey back. Without other Time Lords he's becoming unpleasant.


I hope that Eleven would have a sense of humor. He would like humans more and not have disguised contempt for them.

We may not have the technology or abilities that Time Lords have but we are adult free people. We don't want the Doctor as a benevolent dictator.

I'd like Eleven to be less mad and have a better sense of perspective about things. I like Torchwood but the endless innuendo from Capt Jack and PC from Gwen is annoying.

Maybe the Doctor is going down the slippery slope to being the Valeyard. I would like to see Eleven more cheerful or at least not quite so emo.

I'd love for the Moffat to make the new series more like Classic Who. It couldn't hurt for him to check out how JMS wrote the characters on B5.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wish he were a bit more like Methos

Woo. Brilliant answer. I'll have to think about it.

He often seems to want to surrender first.

Well. He's suicidal.

Without other Time Lords he's becoming unpleasant.

You think that's what makes the difference? That hadn't occurred to me.

I hope that Eleven would have a sense of humor. He would like humans more and not have disguised contempt for them.

Very important. I would go so far as to say I want a Doctor who can love humans individually without panicking, but that's just my spin.

We don't want the Doctor as a benevolent dictator.

Or as someone who thinks it would be okay to be a benevolent dictator. Or who allows his compatriot the malignant dictator to live to kill millions of humans and enslave the rest. (Sorry. Sore point.)

I like Torchwood but the endless innuendo from Capt Jack and PC from Gwen is annoying.

Hmm. Okay. I don't see the endless innuendo - I wish I did, because I'd like to see more, I don't think we get enough of it. And PC from Gwen? Obviously I'm oblivious to it. There are things about Torchwood that drive me nuts, but those aren't the things.

Maybe the Doctor is going down the slippery slope to being the Valeyard.

What does that mean?

I'd love for the Moffat to make the new series more like Classic Who.

He might. He just might. I don't know what I'll think. It depends how he does it.

I didn't much like the characters on B5. Well, actually, there was one character I loved and they ruined him so badly I still hold a grudge.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

the Valeyard is in Classic Who. He is the Doctor in his 13th incarnation. He embodied all the Dr's worst traits. He was in Trial of a Time Lord.


B5 is my all time favorite show ever. Things made sense (eventually) and characters were well developed.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He is the Doctor in his 13th incarnation. He embodied all the Dr's worst traits.

Interesting idea!

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

Don't forget how he got Harriet Jones replaced as PM because he disagreed with her. How dare she do something that he didn't want! I think he's falling into TimeLorditis and thinking that he is a superior being and knows better than any human. Which leads into how dare any human disagree with me or do something without my consent.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not forgetting Harriet Jones - she's one of my favourite characters in the show, and I just came to like her more with "The Stolen Earth". The Doctor is so manifestly wrong... and moreso, I think he knows it. Yet doesn't admit his guilt. That goes beyond arrogance.

When Nine grumbled about "tiny ape brains" it seemed like an affectionate affectation. When Ten presumes to control humans... well. That's the kind of thing evil invading aliens like Cybermen and Sontarans do: think their ways are better and so they have the right to subjugate humans.

I would grumble more about the Doctor's high-handed treatment of Harriet Jones and Earth politics (not to mention Earth authonomy) in "The Christmas Invasion" except it pales beside my horror of his actions in, say, "The Last of the Time Lords" (where he valued one monstrous Time Lord at the expense of all of humanity).

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I am desperately sleepy, but also a bit nauseous and wound up from anger. I had heard so many of these spoilers before that I was kind of numb while watching and writing my first reaction post, but the more I've thought about it, the more furious I've become, and not with things I'd have expected.

(I cried in the Wilf scene, BTW)

Donna's ending is even worse than Jamie and Zoë's, in a way, because the Doctor did it. He did it as she was screaming for him not to. It seemed like a horrible violation. I hope she's able to "relearn" her awesomeness, but it seems a horrible fate, not only for Donna, but for her family, having to walk on eggshells around her for the rest of their lives.

Rose - eh, on the one hand, I can't be bothered. I loved her so much with Nine. I liked that there was a nod back to that, but it was such an obvious sop that it feels cheap.

But the thing that bugged me most and has made me increasingly livid is that there seems to have been no repercussion about the thing that was, for me, the key thing - Davros called the Doctor (and, it seems to me, specifically Ten) on his shit, so to speak. He won't dirty his hands with killing, but he'll use others to kill for him. And he sloughs off all his "genocide" onto Hand!Ten? What was going to happen if he didn't get rid of the Daleks, excuse me? Okay, Eight or Nine committed dual genocide in the Time War (and possibly, there was collateral damage). Nine stepped back from the Delta Wave in PotW, and it felt like the right answer at the time, given that he'd tried it before and it hadn't solved anything. He surrendered (he was suicidal, have people forgotten that?). So BadWolf!Rose shows up and commits genocide to save his bacon, and hey-ho, it's saving her that kills Nine so that Ten can be born. So Ten, in a way, is the product of a genocide. There's the Racnoss that Ten did on his own, and they were only threatening Earth, compared to all of reality - there is such a thing as scale. He meted out vengeful and spiteful punishment on the Family of Blood (and I can't remember, but weren't they the last of their kind? So isn't that genocide?).

My head hurts.

[karra.livejournal.com]

So far as I remember, Jamie did get to meet the Doctor again though.

Plus, I think that Turn Left showed us that Donna can be marvelous even without the Doctor.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Donna is totally marvellous. I'm more distressed that she won't be a companion any more, than I am by her memory-loss, though I'm not sure I entirely believe in her memory loss.

[karra.livejournal.com]

I'm told that there is a deleted scene for the dvd where they pan back to Donna, and she heard the TARDIS and went "OHO" or something, but then went right back to her phonecall.

I imagine she still HAS the memories as well as Time Lord Brain, she just can't access it. I seriously doubt Ten can erase new!genetics. At least not without a Chameleondoohickey.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm told that there is a deleted scene for the dvd where they pan back to Donna, and she heard the TARDIS and went "OHO" or something, but then went right back to her phonecall.

Good! I like that idea. I hope we get to see it when the dvd comes out.

I imagine she still HAS the memories as well as Time Lord Brain, she just can't access it.

So it could be reversed. Well, of course it could - nothing is impossible, and what the Doctor has done, he can undo.

[karra.livejournal.com]

Exactly! I mean, they said we'd never see Rose again, and look what happened there.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes. There are no limits to what they can do, least of all what the say onscreen. Sometimes I think the writers feel challenged to do what they have said will never happen. That's usually good, because usually it's cool stuff.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm not angry; I was, if anything, relieved by various developments. But - my reactions, though not unhappy, aren't ecstatic either. I must see it again to consider further. Liked "Doomsday" better, for example.

I cried in the Wilf scene, BTW

Wilf was wonderful. maaseru, who hasn't seen other episodes this series, said, "That looks like Bernard Cribbins." Heh.

Donna's ending is even worse than Jamie and Zoë's

What happened to them?

He did it as she was screaming for him not to. It seemed like a horrible violation.

Yes, but this time I bought into his motivation. I was more disturbed by the fate of River Song. And in retrospect, somewhat relieved when I learned that that was done just because Steven Moffat wants to use her again, which is a good thing. I wish they'd just left her dead (for later resurrection), or sent her off with the other survivors of the Library, but that's not a big deal.

I too loved Rose with Nine. I loved her original story arc right up to "Doomsday". This was a postscript - I really found myself caring much more about Jack, Donna, Sarah Jane and Martha. I liked Rose herself here but the impetus of her relationship with the Doctor was gone. This show has a habit of giving those who love the Doctor a second-best consolation prize when they can't have him: Ianto for Jack, Tom for Martha, human-Doctor for Rose - though how a human without a TARDIS can substitute for a Time Lord, I can't imagine.

He won't dirty his hands with killing, but he'll use others to kill for him.

I totally loved it that Davros said that. Because it's true, and needed to be articulated.

And he sloughs off all his "genocide" onto Hand!Ten?

But acknowledged that Hand!Ten was part of him. A part he wants to disavow. That didn't bother me at all: I loved it because he wasn't denying responsibility so much as refusing to play games with Davros. I saw it, in fact, as an admission of guilt - not to Davros but to himself. Both his selves. And his companions, but they knew it anyway, and didn't mind.

Nine stepped back from the Delta Wave in PotW, and it felt like the right answer at the time, given that he'd tried it before and it hadn't solved anything.

Such a perfect moment. One of the high points of Doctor Who of all time, for me. (Excluding all other high points involving Jack.)

The point being, as with so many things to do with the Doctor, a paradox. He's a pacifist who has committed genocide several times - in different circumstances and with varying consequences. We don't know the circumstances of the double-genocide of the Time War, but we know because we've seen it that sometimes he kills as a matter of policy (to prevent greater harm) and sometimes he kills (or otherwise exacts revenge) in anger. I like this moral conundrum, much as it infuriated me in "The Last of the Time Lords", because I thought it was mishandled there - and because I was mad at him for mistreating Jack.

Back to Donna; removing memories seems to be a major theme in both Torchwood and Doctor Who. I have always thought it weird that Jack uses Retcon so freely when he resents having two years of his own memories taken from him. What does he feel about what the Doctor did to Donna? Acknowledges the need, regrets the necessity? It's an odd non-solution but I think the Doctor meant to be humane.

I'd like to think that Donna actually does remember, but will never admit it.

Another point: we didn't know the Doctor could remove memories like that, did we?

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I agree that I didn't really care about Rose anymore, which was kind of depressing; I did care more about the others, although they were all safely signed to shows for next season, so I wasn't too terribly worried!

he wasn't denying responsibility so much as refusing to play games with Davros.

How so? Even if so, when he tells Rose to take care of this guy, he seems to be leaving that part behind.

I just have never bought Ten as compassionate. Maybe it's the way Tennant plays him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I didn't really care about Rose anymore, which was kind of depressing

I liked her on her own, without the Doctor, as we saw her in "Turn Left". In a way, it was a revival of my respect for her, which she earned in the first series. After "Doomsday" I was rather happy she was gone, since I loved Martha so much.

So actually I liked Rose better here than I expected to.

I don't know if we'll see Martha again but there's every implication. She's our UNIT rep now.

I just have never bought Ten as compassionate.

Well, no, but do we need to? Perhaps... only to a degree. He's so conflicted and complicated there's not much room for compassion, but he can be kind and well-meaning. Nine was compassionate by nature. Ten is sympathetic by circumstance, or whim, but not compassionate - in fact, he seems to go out of his way to avoid closeness or connection to others. Even when he loves them. The alienated alien, that's him.

I found it amusing when the point was made that the 'family' he'd gathered around him all had others, and he was left alone. He was alone because he'd made it clear he didn't want them with him - he drove them away. Jack and Martha and Donna had all wanted to stay with him forever. It wasn't their choice to leave the TARDIS.

[karra.livejournal.com]

FYI, the preview is a bit misleading. There IS another episode (short, but still an episode) left, it airs on July 27th during the Dr Who Proms Concert. So we've still got that to look forward to til Christmas! Where, it looks like we finally get another male companion.

I have to wonder if the Doctor will tell Martha and Jack not to contact Donna, because...what would happen if they did?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There IS another episode (short, but still an episode) left, it airs on July 27th during the Dr Who Proms Concert.

Cool. Good.

it looks like we finally get another male companion.

I like that. Even though I'll miss Martha and Donna and wouldn't mind seeing Sarah Jane in the TARDIS again, at least for the space of one adventure. If she doesn't want to leave Luke at home alone, she could bring him along.

I have to wonder if the Doctor will tell Martha and Jack not to contact Donna, because...what would happen if they did?

She'd love it if Jack came for a visit! Lots of plot possibilities there. Suppose Jack, who resented his own memories being stolen, told her the truth?

[karra.livejournal.com]

Plus, if the preview is right, it's David Hennessey who has GREAT chemistry with Tennant. I'd love for more old!school companions to come back like SJ did, though.

oh yes. I'm sure there are LOTS of ways the Doctor could've figured out how to stop her exploding. I'm sure Jack or Martha could figure out something.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The name "David Hennessey" doesn't mean anything to me - should I know him from something? Where have you seen him with David Tennant?

I'm sure there are LOTS of ways the Doctor could've figured out how to stop her exploding.

Anything can be done, if the writer wants it so.

[karra.livejournal.com]

I am very brainy and put the wrong last name, sorry. David MORRissey. Sorry! If you do not know him, he was Blackpool with Tennant, with the singing. I don't /think/ he has been in Dr Who before, but US-wise he was in Derailed and I think The Other Boleyn Girl.

Proof positive i should go bedwise XD.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, David Morrissey. From Blackpool. Right. Should be interesting.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

Suppose Jack, who resented his own memories being stolen, told her the truth?

I hadn't remembered that. Holy feces! Jack's got to be offended by this. And it would be sweet if, using the tech he's scavenged from the Rift and now having Ianto AND Mickey's expertise, he could figure out a way to give her back those memories without killing her.

wouldn't mind seeing Sarah Jane in the TARDIS again, at least for the space of one adventure.

Lis Sladen has said that she's pretty sure this is the last time she'll ever be in an episode of "Doctor Who," although she didn't answer when asked if there were a chance the Doctor would visit on her show. It's doubtful because the Doctor never has visited any of the spin-offs but there's always hope. And no one ever said LUKE won't visit!

It would be very cool if they could do a Two Doctors episode (Paul McGann is apparently still decent looking enough to make it a Three Doctors if desired) and that might bring back Rose again but other than that, I'm glad she's gone. I loved Rose but got so used to the more kick-ass companions (Martha, Jack, Donna, all of them kick WAY more ass than Rose ever did!) and now I think it's time for her to retire to Pete's World and take care of her new Doctor (who, let's face it, Pete's World needs) and her baby brother.

My heart is so broken for Donna. And for Ten. He's alone again and this time he didn't have to be. I wonder if he did what he did because he was so afraid of hurting her. Again. Although she didn't object to anything he did. (Remember her reaction when he attacked the lava creature in Pompeii with a water pistol? She said, "I bloody love you!" She was more than happy to suffer the hurt involved in being his companion. Best friends do that for one another.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I hadn't remembered that. Holy feces! Jack's got to be offended by this.

Maybe, maybe not. He seems to have little compunction about stealing other people's memories with Retcon. On the other hand, he does perhaps take care not to let situations arise that require it - the others on the Torchwood team seem more casual in its use. (Especially Suzie, who used it for self-serving purposes.) So. It at least gives him reasons to be sympathetic with Donna.

Ancillary thought: wouldn't it be intersting if Jack's missing memories were taken by the Doctor? For some similar good reason? He thought they were stolen by the Time Agency, but he didn't know, how could he? And the Doctor wouldn't know, if it hadn't happened yet in his own timeline.

Hrrrm.

it would be sweet if, using the tech he's scavenged from the Rift and now having Ianto AND Mickey's expertise, he could figure out a way to give her back those memories without killing her.

Nice.

Lis Sladen has said that she's pretty sure this is the last time she'll ever be in an episode of "Doctor Who,"

Yes. But they might not tell her in advance. And she might be instructed to lie, like Billie Piper was. I retain hope.

(Martha, Jack, Donna, all of them kick WAY more ass than Rose ever did!)

I loved Rose back in first and second season but I now prefer the others. I like Rose's character, but I don't need her back.

I wonder if he did what he did because he was so afraid of hurting her. Again.

Maybe. I think he's conflicted on the 'being alone' issue. He wants to be alone - but he doesn't necessarily like it. I think there's an element of self-punishment there, which would make particular sense at the end of "Journey's End" with all the guilt kicked up by Davros. Any of those companions would stay with the Doctor forever if only he'd let them, and pay just about any price to do it.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

And Donna?

That's the whole point. Ten said that if her memory was jarred by another meeting like that, the Time Lord part of her brain would overload and kill her. As with BadWolf Rose, the moral of the story is that humans can only withstand so much TimeLordness on a psychic level before they go boom, so steps must be taken.

Btw, there's precident for the method of Donna's departure:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoe_Heriot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_McCrimmon

As for Doctor 2 and Rose, I get why RTD did it. It was either give Rose the Doctor some way or actually kill her, because she would've stayed with Ten otherwise, and RTD was purposely wrapping things up. I also appreciated that Other Ten was a throwback to Nine, allowing commentary on that relationship. It was obvious from the ep. and commentary that Rose stayed with Other Ten, because he could say I love you. That said, I wish them well and hope that Other Ten isn't just the boobie prize that he came off as.

I loved that in addition to everyone else we got K-9, too. :) But, Luke isn't 14; he's more like two. I guess they just put that in to keep it simple for the folks who don't watch SJA.

I loved that Tosh saved her team mates.

I double loved that RTD finally tied Gwen back to Gwyneth from Unquiet Dead.

I loved the character moments and themes.

I didn't love the over abundant Deus Ex Machinas and techno babble, but those things have always been hallmarks of the RTD era finales, so I'll applaud him for consistency, if not narrative imagination.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

As with BadWolf Rose, the moral of the story is that humans can only withstand so much TimeLordness on a psychic level before they go boom, so steps must be taken.

I can accept that. Doesn't mean I don't think it could be reversable. There could be a way to shut down access to that part of her brain but still leave memories. Why not? It isn't what they did, it isn't what they want to do, but it could be done.

It was either give Rose the Doctor some way or actually kill her, because she would've stayed with Ten otherwise, and RTD was purposely wrapping things up.

Yes. I'm not sure if they needed wrapping up - this all could have happened without Rose - but that's okay, it was good to see her again, all competent and smart. I wish we'd had Jake instead of Mickey but that's just because I like Jake.

It was obvious from the ep. and commentary that Rose stayed with Other Ten, because he could say I love you.

I am convinced Time Lord Ten could say it: he just didn't dare because of the consequences. Which they both knew.

I wish them well and hope that Other Ten isn't just the boobie prize that he came off as.

Yes. I don't like the notion of the Doctor being mortal; it has the precendent of John Smith in "Human Nature", whom I didn't much like. I find it hard to picture him being domestic and himself at the same time. Interesting notion, though.

But, Luke isn't 14; he's more like two.

Yes. Odd that Sarah Jane should say that - maybe it's just habit, so as not to blow his cover. Or perhaps she doesn't want the Doctor to know who or what Luke is? Wants him to think it's her naturally born son? He knows she didn't have a kid in "School Reunion", unless she was just being cagey, but if he doesn't stop to think about it too much - maybe.

I loved that Tosh saved her team mates.

That was totally wonderful. I like the idea of the Hub being so well defended, too.

I double loved that RTD finally tied Gwen back to Gwyneth from Unquiet Dead.

Oh, yes! I didn't expect that at all. And there it was.

I didn't love the over abundant Deus Ex Machinas

No.

and techno babble,

I mostly like the techno babble and it was okay here, though admittedly excessive.

I'll applaud him for consistency, if not narrative imagination.

He does his thing. We're all along for the ride.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Yes. Odd that Sarah Jane should say that - maybe it's just habit, so as not to blow his cover. Or perhaps she doesn't want the Doctor to know who or what Luke is? Wants him to think it's her naturally born son? He knows she didn't have a kid in "School Reunion", unless she was just being cagey, but if he doesn't stop to think about it too much - maybe.

I figured it was habit to maintain his cover.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That seems like the easiest explanation.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Loved Action!Martha. I find it interesting that Tom Milligan was not so much as mentioned in this episode or last. It's the end of the world, and Martha subconsciously chooses to be with her mother and not her fiancé? That strikes me as odd.

It was probably logistics. With everything else going on narratively and/or actor schedules, they just couldn't fit him in.

Tom Milligan...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

With everything else going on narratively and/or actor schedules, they just couldn't fit him in.

The actor may well have been busy, but since they have established him in Martha's life, he could at least have been mentioned. And 'fitting him in' narratively would just have been a matter of including him rather than Francine.

Re: Tom Milligan...

[raissad.livejournal.com]

True. Maybe, we'll see him when she moves to TW.

Re: Tom Milligan...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That will be interesting.

Since Torchwood tends to focus more on the character's personal lives, it seems inevitable that Tom will be involved. I wonder what he will make of Jack.

Re: Tom Milligan...

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

Ianto & Tom will talk about their SO's. Hopefully Jack won't put the moves on Martha. If he does there will be a race to see whether Tom or Ianto clocks him first.

For a truly bizarre twist have James Marsters do a guest shot on Doctor Who as Captain John Hart. I'd love to see what the Doctor makes of him.

Re: Tom Milligan...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hopefully Jack won't put the moves on Martha

Personally I'd love to see something going on between Jack and Martha - maybe she could put the moves on him. I love them together. Mind you, I also wouldn't mind seeing him put the moves on Tom. Which is really just a way of saying that I'm not yet enchanted with the Martha/Tom relationship and Jack/Ianto isn't my favourite either. Though I like both. But Tom doesn't seem to me to be quite good enough for Martha, just as Ianto is delicious but not as good with Jack as the Doctor was or would be.

I'd love to see Captain John Hart and the Doctor meet. I think their banter would be brilliant!

Re: Tom Milligan...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Maybe, we'll see him when she moves to TW.

Or at least get a 'we called it off' sort of explanation.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

9: I recollect that it is specified in canon that the Doctor nicked "borrowed" liberated went off with the Tardis in circumstances where he wouldn't exactly have the requisite number of collaborators.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

This is from wikipedia:

In the programme, the Doctor's TARDIS is an obsolete Type 40 TT capsule (presumably TT stands for "time travel") that he unofficially "borrowed" when he departed his home planet of Gallifrey. According to the Eighth Doctor Adventures novel The Gallifrey Chronicles by Lance Parkin, it previously belonged to a Time Lord named Marnal, who was, like the Doctor, something of a renegade. By the time of The Pirate Planet, the Doctor has been flying it for 523 years.

The idea that it takes six pilots is apparently new with this series, but as the design of the console has not changed and all the doctors (except Hartnell but I haven't seen all of his episodes so I could be wrong) ran around like spazzes while piloting, I think it is a valid assumption.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like it as an explanation. I like it a lot. But it leads to other questions, which is one of the reasons I like it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, he left without the crew, but he could still acquire a crew. As I said somewhere above, I think the Doctor actually prefers to be alone, and hates it at the same time; but it's also quite possible that the TARDIS should have a full compliment of Time Lords to run it - oversized brains and psychic links or whatever - so substitutes won't do. Except in this episode where they could do what they did, with coaching.

I love, totally love, seeing Jack on the TARDIS.

[katkim.livejournal.com]

I would have liked a quiet moment somewhere. I was moved, but it was all... in a big way.

Although I'm largely satisfied with the episode, big bangs and all, I would have liked a few more conversations/reflections in the midst, too. I would have liked a proper conversation with Rose and Jack together to touch upon the consequences of Jack's immortality. I would have also liked more of Ten and Human!Ten. It was like The Doctor was as frightened of Human!Ten as he was of Jack and decided to leave him and run, leaving too much unresolved.

I did love the one quiet scene with Wilf and the Doctor at the end, though. For me, that's when the episode hit emotionally. Events and meanings were allowed to sink in, and I think the episode needed.

Loved Gramps better than ever, and it was nice to see Sylvia sticking up for Donna.

Bernard Cribbins has been wonderful throughout and I love him just as much as I love Donna (and Donna is my favourite companion out of the new). I liked that Sylivia stuck up for Donna, too. Poor Doctor, he's doomed to have always have a mother's dislike!

Rose now has her Doctor. I'm not sure I like the implication that a mortal can only love or live with another mortal - Ianto and Jack are doing fine with their asymmetrical affair. Our Doctor couldn't tell Rose he loved her because she would then never have left him.

Although I find Donna and the Doctor's relationship the most squee-worthy (I ship them so hard in a platonic way!), I find Rose's more interesting. I know a lot of people hate that the Doctor supposedly returns her feelings, but I actually like that. I think the Doctor loves all his companions equally, but in different ways. I personally have no problem with romantic love being one of those ways (even sexual love, although I do lean towards the Doctor being asexual). It's the incompatibility of that love with his Time-Lordiness and her humanness makes it all lovely in it's possibility and complexity :) The same issues probably applies to Ianto and Jack, which is why I like their relationship.

As such, I HATE that Rose has ended up with the half-Doctor. It's not a happy-ever-after (not that I wanted one for Rose and the Doctor) because he is NOT the Doctor, and there's no Tardis and no time travel. It's not the tragic ending that gave Doomsday it's punch. It's this weird-arse ending and I'm not sure what that doubtful/uncomfortable look Human!Doctor and Rose shared was suppose to mean...Meh.

I'm not sure why she had to go back to her other universe, but I'm not sorry she did.

I'm no sorry either, but I did feel that that Doctor was dumping Human!Ten with Rose to clean up the mess and running away as fast as he can! I think that undercut so many things.

Does this mean Mickey will join Torchwood?

Well, Jack has two vacancies :)

Loved Action!Martha.

I think Martha is the one companion who is so much more awesome when she's acting without the Doctor. Maybe it's reside resentment over the Doctor's treatment of her and how her crush kind of weakened her character, but oh - lone Martha rocks! I wish she'd get her own spin-off :) <3

Reply, Part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I would have liked a proper conversation with Rose and Jack together to touch upon the consequences of Jack's immortality.

Yes. I liked it that they were warm and comfortable together, which is as it should be, but they were so caught up in the action, and she was so focussed on the Doctor, they got short shrift in terms of the rather significant relationship between them. I don't mind, I can fit it in through the cracks in my fannish way, but I'd like to have seen it. At least a bit of dialogue:

Jack: You made me immortal.
Rose: Yeah. I'm sorry, I really am.
Jack: No, it's great. Gives me scope. Thanks!
Rose: Well, all right then.

Only, you know, better written and with more depth. [g]

I would have also liked more of Ten and Human!Ten. It was like The Doctor was as frightened of Human!Ten as he was of Jack and decided to leave him and run, leaving too much unresolved.

I do think the Time Lord was avoiding the moral, and happy to be rid of him. Even though the mortal did him a favour, both in terms of saving the day, and in being a scapegoat for guilt.

I did love the one quiet scene with Wilf and the Doctor at the end, though.

That was lovely. I adore Wilf. I'm as sorry to lose him from teh story, as to lose Donna. Well... almost.

Poor Doctor, he's doomed to have always have a mother's dislike!

It'll be fun to see if they break this pattern next time. (Though Jackie grew quite fond!) Meanwhile, it's a cute theme.

I ship them so hard in a platonic way!

Hee. I love them together. Wonderful dialogue, excellent acting - I'm spoiled. How could whoever follows live up to this?

I know a lot of people hate that the Doctor supposedly returns her feelings, but I actually like that.

What, he's not supposed to love? I love it that the Doctor loves Rose. It's one of the things that drew me into the show. I have no interest in watching a Doctor without the capacity for love. I don't mind that he's totally screwed up: I'd be bored if he didn't care personally for people. And frankly, it's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to watch the classic episodes. I know they don't have what I want, that layer of interpersonal emotional pay-off. I do see him as sexual (very sexual, actually) but that isn't the point - the point is the sense of connection and intensity. He is not lonely because he doesn't like people, he is lonely because he can't have those he loves. Or the one he loves.

The glitch in this is that Rose isn't the one I'd have chosen for him to love, and I prefer the other companions, but that's okay, too.

Re: Reply, Part 1

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

I think that the Doctor finds any personal(with his body & mind) connection with humans icky! So he got the icky human Doctor as far away from him as possible.

Re: Reply, Part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hee! your Doctor is not my Doctor. He holds hands and hugs too much to find physical contact with humans icky. He just likes it on his own terms.

Reply, part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's the incompatibility of that love with his Time-Lordiness and her humanness makes it all lovely in it's possibility and complexity :)

Yup. I enjoy all that. And I don't even believe that they are in any way incompatible: the Doctor believes it, and that's what matters.

The same issues probably applies to Ianto and Jack, which is why I like their relationship.

It's an interesting part of it. Obviously no impediment to dabbling, but how will Ianto fare long term? Interesting speculation. Since I don't want Jack to settle down in any way, I'm happy with their arrangement.

It's not a happy-ever-after (not that I wanted one for Rose and the Doctor) because he is NOT the Doctor, and there's no Tardis and no time travel.

Yes. Rose was in love with the Doctor and also with his lifestyle. The Doctor without the lifestyle is a different person - especially if he lacks the Time Lord attributes. If he has the same personality, more or less, he will still be running - but what to? what from? Or will he change so much that he can accept a house with windows and two kids and a dog and taking the garbage out in the mornings? Will he take a name and a paycheque and social security? Buy a car?

I can't picture it. Either way, I can't picture it. Which in itself makes it almost intriguing, a conceptual problem to poke at. Will he be like John Smith, a shadow of himself? I don't think so: he has full knowledge of who and what he is. It's a fresh life and not a bad thing from is point of view - not bad, saving the universe a few minutes after you're born - but Rose? Will she be happy with what she has? Won't she still miss the TARDIS days, and see the contrast? I should think his resemblance to the Doctor would make it harder for her, not easier, though I suppose he shares Ten's memories.

It's not the tragic ending that gave Doomsday its punch.

That was such a climax. This lacked both intensity and depth, though it was a fun roller coaster ride. The aspect I liked best - the discussion of the moral aspect of wiping out Daleks - was not emphasized, and I'd have liked to have seen more of that - I'd have loved to have seen the Doctor discussing it with his companions. As it was, shifting the blame to mortal!Ten and carrying on didn't work thematically, it just worked in terms of plot. And perhaps the issue can't be resolved, but I find it fascinating and would like to see them work it a little more deeply.

It's this weird-arse ending and I'm not sure what that doubtful/uncomfortable look Human!Doctor and Rose shared was suppose to mean...Meh.

They'll have to sort of it out. I'll have to think about it. I wonder what the Rose/Doctor shippers think, the ones really invested in the relationship. My sense is that she didn't get the man she loves in any way.

I did feel that that Doctor was dumping Human!Ten with Rose to clean up the mess and running away as fast as he can!

Yes. I'm not sure how else he could have handled it. I'll have to think about all of this.

Jack has two vacancies :)

I'd rather he hired Jack. Or OC Andy. Or Tom Milligan. Or Detective Swanson. I could list more possibilities...! But no, RTD didn't ask me. Bother.

I don't believe Martha had a crush on the Doctor. I think she was (and still is) truly and deeply in love with him. I wish he'd loved her in return, but he didn't, so I just have to live with it.

lone Martha rocks! I wish she'd get her own spin-off :)

I'd be happy with that.

Re: Reply, part 2

[raissad.livejournal.com]

From what I've seen. Doctor/Rose shippers either love the resolution in a can have their cake and eat too way, or they wish Rose had never come back/been killed off.

Re: Reply, part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Both options make sense! - in their way. I tend more to the second reaction, but I also enjoyed seeing her with her big gun.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

Not reading any of this but I just started watching season one on side reel. Yay. :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yay! I hope you enjoy it. I love series 1 because I love Christopher Eccleston and the story arc and themes are totally brilliant. That being said, it takes a while to warm up. It isn't till, say, 'Dalek' that you start to sit up and say, "Waaait a minute here, there's depths to this show, like a philosophical iceberg on crack."

Or not: maybe it all depends on whether you can love the Doctor and buy into the myth. I could and did, of course. Once that happens, the earlier episodes gain nuance and lustre by their implications.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

Eccleston is great. I like it so far. When do I get Jack?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Captain Jack will appear in the ninth episode, "The Empty Child", and then continue in the show till the end of the first series.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Does this mean Mickey will join Torchwood?

I think they were pretty strongly implying that both Mickey and Martha will join Torchwood - Jack even has that line about finding Martha something better than UNIT at the end.

a TARDIS is meant to be run by six people. So why doesn't the Doctor travel with five companions?

I don't know if he has ever had 5, but he has definitely travelled with several at a time in the older Who series.

Am I right that Martha still has her teleportation device? Cool

Only if she goes back to Germany and collects it - she wasn't wearing it when the Daleks took her out of the Osterhagen station.

Incidentally, how cool was it when the Daleks were speaking German?


The Doctor removed Donna's memories of him. Did we know he could do that

They seem to have effectively written her out - though not necessarily. She could always meet the Doctor again. Two coincidental meetings - why not a third? Which she would think was the first.

I hate that so much I am still largely incoherent about it and tend to end up muttering "bastards, bastards, bastards" a lot. But I believe the implication is that Donna can never be told or encounter anything again that would revive her memories without being destroyed.

And I hate it. Because she was so fantastic and now she's stuck back being stifled and small and believing she isn't special. And though I liked Sylvia finally sticking up for her, the way she told the Doctor to get out when he called her on attitude does not suggest to me that she is going to be any better at being supportive in the long run.

Donna deserved a far better ending than that.

Okay, I'm getting mad again. Time to stop.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think they were pretty strongly implying that both Mickey and Martha will join Torchwood

I thought so too. I'm happy about Martha. Mixed feelings about Mickey - it depends what they do with him. My sense of Mickey is all tied up in his plot/theme with Rose. Without Rose, what is he like? I don't know. I'm not particularly curious but if they have ideas, it might be interesting. It would be interesting to have two members of the Torchwood team experienced in travel in time and space. And one of them with her personal post-Sontaran teleportation device.

Jack even has that line about finding Martha something better than UNIT at the end.

I love they way they are featuring UNIT, good and bad. I'd love to see Torchwood run the Valiant. (not that I don't love the Hub, and it seems they want to keep Torchwood's adventures in and around present-day Cardiff.)

I don't know if he has ever had 5, but he has definitely travelled with several at a time in the older Who series.

No reason he couldn't have as many companions as he wants. I assume the Doctor keeps himself to one or two companions now because of his post-Time-War PTSS problems. This has the following effects:

(1) we can focus on his relationships and interplay with one companion at a time, which makes for better stories

(2) we get a badly-behaved TARDIS that thinks for itself sometimes, leading to interesting storylines

(3) we get those wonderful scenes of the Doctor driving with his feet and hopping around the place and using percussive driving techniques

So I don't want him to get a full crew and 'fix' things. But I'm sure Jack would be helpful, if he kept him around for a bit - ! Okay, that was self-serving of me to say. But it was sincere. [g]

Only if she goes back to Germany and collects it - she wasn't wearing it when the Daleks took her out of the Osterhagen station.

If I was her, I'd pick it up. Can't leave something like that lying around. And if she goes back for it an it's gone, there's another plot waiting to be told.

how cool was it when the Daleks were speaking German?

I loved that almost as much as the Doctor speaking Judoon in the previous episode.

I hate that so much I am still largely incoherent about it and tend to end up muttering "bastards, bastards, bastards" a lot.

Understandable. I don't hate it, at least not yet, it hasn't touched my emotional buttons. But I'm struggling to know what to make of it.

I believe the implication is that Donna can never be told or encounter anything again that would revive her memories without being destroyed.

There's a way around anything. The Doctor's intentions are benign, but I want her to remember. Like people who spontaneously remember despite Retcon.

Because she was so fantastic and now she's stuck back being stifled and small and believing she isn't special.

Yes. I want her to remember that. Rose remembers everything except the height of the Vortex experience - why not get that for Donna? If the Doctor could remove memories, couldn't he fix it so that she just loses the Time Lord experience at the end?

I was actually uncomfortable with Donna-as-time-lord because it was (a) such an echo of Rose as vortex goddess and (b) unlike Donna - her special brilliant consists in being human, not being Time Lord. I loved that moment in "The Stolen Earth" when she proclaimed that being a human was as good as being a Time Lord. So - this wasn't a moment I liked. Must think it through.

though I liked Sylvia finally sticking up for her, the way she told the Doctor to get out when he called her on attitude does not suggest to me that she is going to be any better at being supportive in the long run.

No, I agree. The relationship won't have changed because Donna won't have changed. And Sylvia is still a controller.

Donna deserved a far better ending than that.

Yes. I haven't lost hope that we'll get it. I wonder what Steven Moffat thinks of Donna. Mind you, given what he did with River Song, I'm not sure he'd do better.

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

I was annoyed when the Dr offered to take Davros to safety in the end. Huh? What does a human have to do for the Dr. to think he deserves what he gets? Reminded me of his grief over the last Time Lord's death, when I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought, "Good riddance!" Jack's more ruthless-- he at least froze his own brother.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Ugh yes. Davros and the Daleks caused the death of who knows how many people already. He wanted to wipe out every living soul in the entire universe but the Doctor is willing to take him on board the TARDIS?

Same goes for the Master. He enslaved the Earth, killed millions, kept Jack and Martha's family captive for a year, but hey, why not come and stay on the TARDIS with the Doctor. Ugh. (okay, I would have loved to see the adventures of the Master and the Doctor, but still, the guy did not deserve that)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He wanted to wipe out every living soul in the entire universe but the Doctor is willing to take him on board the TARDIS?

He was willing to take on the Master, with love. He'd do anything.

He enslaved the Earth, killed millions, kept Jack and Martha's family captive for a year, but hey, why not come and stay on the TARDIS with the Doctor. Ugh.

Uh-huh. I still have trouble with that. I'm not sure the Doctor doesn't, too, but at least when he shows off his moral flaws, he does it on a massive scale.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I was annoyed when the Dr offered to take Davros to safety in the end. Huh? What does a human have to do for the Dr. to think he deserves what he gets?

I like it that the Doctor has a life-before-all attitude, at least some of the time. I agree with you about The Master - like Lymond, the Doctor is good to his enemies and plays merry hell with his friends.

Jack's more ruthless-- he at least froze his own brother.

I probably shouldn't say this aloud, but Jack is in many ways more stable and more moral than the Doctor. Which is a scary thought.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

I probably shouldn't say this aloud, but Jack is in many ways more stable and more moral than the Doctor. Which is a scary thought.

I've always thought that the PTSD was just the latest layer of the Doctor's psychosis. Like the Master, the Doctor was always mad long before the Time War. He was just a different kind of mad, which is why his moral compass points north west.

As for his companions, they never quite knew what they were in for with him. Six actually harmed his then companion during a post-regenerative episode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peri_Brown

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He was just a different kind of mad, which is why his moral compass points north west.

Fair enough. In the few bits of classic episodes I've seen, this really wasn't in evidence.

Six actually harmed his then companion during a post-regenerative episode:

Interesting!

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

Well, I think they are both ill-served by surrounding themselves with worshippers. We will miss Donna, who occasionally doubted him at least!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Rose argued with the Doctor when she felt the need, but she loved him too much to see things very objectively. Donna was the perfect balance.

Jack, I fear, would let him get away with anything.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Though if I was her, I'd still prefer to be with the Time Lord, travelling in time and space.

And that's why I think the Doctor had to leave her in the parallel universe. After what Davros said about the Doctor turning his companions into weapons, maybe he's finally thinking that he does need to be alone, and there's no way Rose would be in the same universe as him and not be travelling with him. I just hope that stranding her in a parallel universe that she can't get out of will actually take this time.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

After what Davros said about the Doctor turning his companions into weapons, maybe he's finally thinking that he does need to be alone, and there's no way Rose would be in the same universe as him and not be travelling with him.

But she's already a weapon, carrying a gun almost as big as Jack's. Leaving her in the other universe won't change that. Maybe the mortal Doctor can carry a big gun alongside her. After starting his life killing Daleks, he might well be a lean, mean killing machine.

See, my imagination isn't taking this in at all. No coherent pattern forms. It's bizarre. Kind of fun, but odd.

I can't see any logic by which the Doctor had to leave her in the other universe for her sake. It isn't safer or better for her. It had to be for his own sake - fear of that much commitment? Fear of losing her to age and death? Fear of losing her to danger he has brought her into? Fear of losing his independence?

Slightly off-topic ...

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

How's your new computer? [I gather (or should it be "I hope"?) it's up & running and the old one is now superfluous. :-/]

Re: Slightly off-topic ...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

dincanmac, it is a thing of beauty. It is delightful. Sheila set it up in no time flat. I was so impressed, and so happy.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

Ramblings:

I'll miss the hand, but not that blue suit. We can now assume that ten.1 has male anatomy (donna didn't sound suprised over and beyond, plus that's a human body, evben if no-where in donna's genetics does it tell you where to make a bloke...), he's got a human lifespan, he might decide to stick with Rose. She wouldn't let him any other way. Personally I believe what was whispered was "D'y want chips?", which means the same thing.

Whatever the Doctor said that translated as "I love you", whatever he meant by that, we'll never know. I may be just cynical because the most Doctor-like person I know has just become single, due to misunderstandings on the nature of love. The doctor is always seeking new experiences, and as ten.1 can't fly off into space, he'll probably try sex with Rose, if she wants it. Whether he'll try it a second time is what we have to wonder.

Both doctor!donna and ten.l were echoes of John Smith, especially with Donna's fear of becoming human again.

The Doctor is so alone again now, having gone from a full control room including another time lord to talk to, to nothing else, yet again. I hope he picks someone else up soon, I doubt I'll be able to cope with him being alone with all the mary-sues that'll be written! ;)

It's not my fault - I wasn't the one who made the reference - she did, she knows how I feel about him - all I'd want from anyone is companionship - it wasn't funny, but it was true - just let me travel with you!

Further ramblings tommorrow, probably.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'll miss the hand, but not that blue suit.

Ahh, the Hand. Yes. I don't much care about the suit: the brown one is better, but I never saw anything much wrong with the blue. I prefer Nine's dress sense anyway.

I always thought that the Doctor in any incarnation had male anatomy. I took it as given, for numerous reasons. No surprise there. I also believe he likes sex and has no problems with the idea of sex with Rose, except circumstantially.

I believe what was whispered was "D'y want chips?"

Of course! And Rose would jump at any man who had the sense to offer a proposition like that.

Both doctor!donna and ten.l were echoes of John Smith, especially with Donna's fear of becoming human again.

And more palatable to me, since I didn't like John Smith, if you mean the John Smith of 'Human Nature'. I like this bloke much better; but I prefer Donna as a human.

I hope he picks someone else up soon, I doubt I'll be able to cope with him being alone with all the mary-sues that'll be written! ;)

I live in fear.

And I look forward to more ramblings from you.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

From a writing point of view, to make timelords seem less human, a piece of their anatomy that we'd never see - their cardiovascular system - has been altered. I'm not assuming anything about any other parts of their anatomy that would never appear onscreen. I have a thing against too-human aliens, so this is just a way of letting me continue squeeing at the series.

I think the Donna I like best is the Donna she matured to be. She's now been mindwiped / retconned back to annoying!Donna, and given the choice between annoying!Donna and no!Donna!ever!again, I'll leave her to her annoying little life, and get a new companion.

I did mean humannature!JohnSmith. Anyother!JohnSmith is just a psudeonymn.

Personbally, I've no idea why Rose snogged him. She's keeping his mouth busy, and I'd much rather have him talking clever to me....

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm not assuming anything about any other parts of their anatomy that would never appear onscreen.

Yes. Personally I deliberately and willfully make all sorts of assumptions - in fact, though I try to be well aware of the reality we see onscreen, and what is canon and what is not, as long as I am conversant with that and conform to it, I feel free to write the Doctor in the way I prefer. Which means with nice sexy human parts.

I have a thing against aliens who are unlike humans, so I interpret him as humanlike as much as is plausible. The Doctor's more human characteristics are central to his appeal for me. I wouldn't even watch the show if I couldn't think of him as being like a human.

I think the Donna I like best is the Donna she matured to be.

Yes. I loved her in... well, just about everything in series 4 up to the point where she turned into a Time Lord. Then she creeped me. And then... she was annoying, shallow, unspecial Donna again, with only the potential to be what she became under the influence of the Doctor. And I love the tragedy of that, but I regret it, too.

Maybe what human-Doctor said to Rose was, "Kiss me, and he'll be jealous."

[cupati.livejournal.com]

I taste like chips?

I'm not claiming to have predicted anything, but abomination = traitor...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I taste like chips?

LOL - she'd think him the prefect man!

I'm not claiming to have predicted anything, but abomination = traitor...

Yes.

I wasn't sure how the Daleks could prevent the anti-reality machine from erasing their own existence.... but I guess they'd built that into the mechanism. It reminded me of the old story of the guy who claimed he had a vial of a liquid that would dissolve anything it touched, but the vial was intact.