Doctor Who: Journey's End...

[fajrdrako]

Well. End of another series. I'm going to miss this show very much indeed.

I watched this with Sheila. We had a bit of a marathon, starting with "Turn Left" and then "The Stolen Earth" before watching "Journey's End". It was nice to see the continuity.

Brief comments on 'Journey's End':

1. Russell T Davies does seem to be plugging the holes and bringing back themes and plot points from all his previous seasons. Lots of 'reset' buttons being pushed.
   
   
2. Loved the events at Torchwood - a time-locked fortress within Cardiff. And Tosh's doing, too - she saves them again from beyond the grave. I love it too that Jack had total faith they'd be alive when he got home, despite all indications.
   
   
3. Captain Jack was wonderful in this episode. Just the way I like to see him. Well, actually, I'd have liked much more focus on him, and something more personal with the Doctor, but that's all right. The Doctor showed both appreciation and respect for him, the personal connection was there. My craving for the relationship between them elicited all sorts of good signs, even an implication that the Doctor, in his own flighty fashion, stays in touch with Jack.
   
   I was disappointed that the Doctor sabotaged the vortex manipulator again. Why's he so determined to keep Jack in one time? I also think Jack can fix the wristband, so it's a moot point. I am not unhappy.
   
   
4. Does this mean Mickey will join Torchwood? I'm not sure I like that. I liked Mickey's role in Doctor Who mainly because of his connection with Rose. There is an interesting rationale for him on Torchwood: he's had experience in the other universe. Do I like Mickey enough to want him there? So far, no, but it all depends on the writing and the characterization. This is not the Mickey of series 1. Must remember that.
   
   
5. The Doctor removed Donna's memories of him. Did we know he could do that?
   
   
6. nina_ds had talked about 'noisy' episodes in this show, especially as finales, and I think it was. I liked it - even liked its noisiness - but there were so many pyrotechnics, so many wild tricks - I would have liked a quiet moment somewhere. I was moved, but it was all... in a big way.
   
   
7. So did Donna become a sort of Bad Wolf herself? The Time Lord human? As a woman with a Time Lord brain, she was funny. I loved her as a companion, and will miss her.
   
   
8. Jackie didn't have much of a role. I can't think why her presence was necessary to the story. Just for nostalgia's sake?
   
   
9. Loved the explanation, hinted at before, that a TARDIS is meant to be run by six people. So why doesn't the Doctor travel with five companions? Perhaps because he likes his independence - one or two companions is good company, but more than that would crimp his style.
   
   
10. Rose now has her Doctor. I'm not sure I like the implication that a mortal can only love or live with another mortal - Ianto and Jack are doing fine with their asymmetrical affair. Our Doctor couldn't tell Rose he loved her because she would then never have left him. I'm not sure why she had to go back to her other universe, but I'm not sorry she did.
    
    I have always liked the implication that the Doctor was upset by their parting in "Doomsday" not so much because they wereseparated (though he missed her) but because she had gone to that universe unwillingly, and was desperately unhappy with it. Now she can be content there. Though if I was her, I'd still prefer to be with the Time Lord, travelling in time and space.
    
    
11. Loved it that Donna fancied Jack.
    
    
12. Loved Gramps better than ever, and it was nice to see Sylvia sticking up for Donna. I love it that Gramps will remember the Doctor and Donna's adventures with him.
    
    
13. Loved Action!Martha. I find it interesting that Tom Milligan was not so much as mentioned in this episode or last. It's the end of the world, and Martha subconsciously chooses to be with her mother and not her fiancé? That strikes me as odd.
    
    
14. Is Dalek Caan still alive? He was not recreated from Davros' body, so I would assume he is. And the Daleks may return in future.
    
    
15. The human Doctor destroyed the Daleks. Another connection, I assume, between humans and violence? Again, the Doctor is exculpated? Or is he? In this case, he didn't kill Daleks... he mostly just observed what was going on.
    
    I loved the discussion of his guilt: Davros pointing out that he may not use weapons but he has more or less trained humans as weapons. But they have their own free will, and the Doctor has his own guilty conscience. I loved all of that.
    
    I found Davros more interesting here than in "The Stolen Earth".
    
    
16. I loved the force-filed prisons and the time-lock shields and so many of the alien-tech gimmicks. Including especially the use of the TARDIS. Tossing it into the incineratior! Woo.
    
    
17. Loved it that Jack used his inability to die to outwit the Daleks, or try to.
    
    
18. Am I right that Martha still has her teleportation device? Cool.
    
    
19. I can hardly wait for more Sarah Jane Adventures. I hope we see more of Martha, too. Though I generally like the way Rose was used in series 4, I'm just as happy if we don't see her again. And Donna? They seem to have effectively written her out - though not necessarily. She could always meet the Doctor again. Two coincidental meetings - why not a third? Which she would think was the first.
    
    Though of course even without other workings of Destiny, their second meeting wasn't by chance: she'd been looking for him in the likely places for more than a year.
    
    
20. I cried. I can't remember when I cried, but I did. Not at the end. Somewhere in the middle.
    
    
21. The hand grew into the human Doctor, right? And no longer exists as a hand. Pity. I liked that hand.
    
    
22. So what do I do now? Watch series 4 over again? Better still, watch series 1, 2, 3 and 4 again, topped off with Sarah Jane Adventures and Torchwood? It feels like a long time till I'll get anything new.
    

Comments

[catslash.livejournal.com]

I was disappointed that the Doctor sabotaged the vortex manipulator again. Why's he so determined to keep Jack in one time?

because the Doctor thinks he knows best. For everyone. Always. Just ask Harriet Jones. Or Donna. Oh, wait. YOU CAN'T.

Not that I'm going to be furious over this episode for quite some time or anything.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

because the Doctor thinks he knows best.

Well, yes, but why would he think that was best for Jack? Or why it would benefit him to have Jack in one time or place? I like to think it's because that way he can find him easily. Or phone him on the bat-phone or something.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

I always figured it was because he didn't like the idea of Jack being a loose cannon all over time and space, and also because he likes to control things whenever he can. He's never really caught up with the idea of Jack having a sense of responsibility. He speaks as though he respects Jack, but he doesn't act like it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always figured it was because he didn't like the idea of Jack being a loose cannon all over time and space

Well, first of all, Jack isn't a loose cannon, and the Doctor knows that. And even if he were, the Doctor doesn't usually try to confine people whether they are loose cannons or not. He likes chaos in the universe.

and also because he likes to control things whenever he can.

He does? He likes to fix things. I don't see much desire for control.

He's never really caught up with the idea of Jack having a sense of responsibility.

I'm not sure I'm convinced of that. Or of the opposite. He knows Jack died for him in fighting the Daleks - I'd think that should earn a little trust. He knows Jack showed a lot of responsibility over 150 years on Earth. He isn't stupid or judgemental about people - not usually. If anything, he tends to allow second chances. (But not third chances.)

You may be right, but I haven't found a way to make it make psychological sense yet.

He speaks as though he respects Jack, but he doesn't act like it.

But only with regard to this one detail. Perhaps, with his sense of precognition, he is aware of implications we haven't been told? Perhaps he sees it as a way to protect Earth, or to protect Jack?

[catslash.livejournal.com]

You know, I think you and I tend to take our entertainment in very differently. We both happily think it to death, but that's about where the similarity ends. I've noticed that I tend to be much more cynical as a viewer, and you're more generous. I do have a darker view of the show. I don't think the Doctor is a very nice person, and I think Ten specifically is kind of an asshole, and that makes me markedly less inclined to view his actions kindly. I do honestly think he believes it safer to keep Jack in one spot. Why or who for, I don't know, but definitely safer. I think his revulsion regarding Jack's immortality influences him more than he thinks it does, not that I particularly blame him for that; if it's as bone-deep as was implied, it's hardly his fault.

I do like reading and discussing your posts, though! It's interesting to hear the thoughts of someone with so different a perspective, plus you make me think more closely about what I'm saying.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

We both happily think it to death, but that's about where the similarity ends.

Yes, but it's an interesting place to start!

I've noticed that I tend to be much more cynical as a viewer, and you're more generous.

I think I have two modes of watching. There's the way I watch the shows I love, the ones I get emotionally involved with - where I am very generous in my viewing, loving to explain plot holes with imagination and poking at the subtext while (largely) ignoring the non-fictional aspects - that is, buying happily into the myth. Unless something jolts me out of that. Usually done, if at all, with a moralistic point or characterizational anomaly.

Then there are the rest of the shows on television, with which I am super-critical and usually don't watch because they annoy me so.

I same my rather colossal sense of textual romance for the shows I love.

I don't think the Doctor is a very nice person

I thought Nine was a rather nice person. Ten is not, but for some reason that doesn't bother me.

I think Ten specifically is kind of an asshole, and that makes me markedly less inclined to view his actions kindly.

He's often and asshole, but I do tend to view him in a favourable light, or at least, usually, a non-judgemental one. I still don't quite forgive him for the events of "The Last of the Time Lords", but I can live with the difference. I don't get what I want with him - and I did get what I wanted with Nine, even the Jack/Doctor kiss. But there are enough twists and perks with Ten that he keeps me happy nonetheless.

It isn't that I'm easy to please, it's that the Doctor has characteristics I love despite the slips.

I do honestly think he believes it safer to keep Jack in one spot. Why or who for, I don't know, but definitely safer.

Perhaps this will be explored in future. I refuse to believe it's just the desire of the writers, for convenience in writing Torchwood - and yes, I can believe it has to do with the Doctor's prejudice against Jack, which isn't as bad as it was. At least he isn't leaving Jack to lonely abandonment among corpses.

It's interesting to hear the thoughts of someone with so different a perspective, plus you make me think more closely about what I'm saying.

I agree absolutely. How dull it would be, if everyone saw it the way I do! I also don't want to think I mindlessly accept what they say, without though. I don't want to be easily led.

But I do love the Doctor, whether it's Nine or Ten, and I am happy to have imperfect, flawed, and dangerous heroes - as long as he treats Jack with at least a surface decency.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

Then there are the rest of the shows on television, with which I am super-critical and usually don't watch because they annoy me so.

Hee. Good call.

I am not generally a romantic sort of person. I can be, certainly - I am just as capable of being reduced to a pile of mush as anyone - but overall I tend to take a more pragmatic view of things. I'll excuse flaws more easily in something I like (see: our previous discussion of Moffat's storytelling), but if a show leads to me to expect a high level of quality, I come to hold it to very high standards indeed. If it starts consistently failing to live up to those standards, I will start ripping at it.

My interpretation of the Doctor's character is fairly complex, which suits a complex character. Nine was, I think, more prone to moments of kindness, but he could also be quite harsh (Adam stranded with a forehead that opens at the snap of someone's fingers? Appropriate in a poetic sort of way, maybe, but harsh). Ten seems oblivious to other people, and he is sometimes; not always, though, and not as often as he seems to be, I don't think. He affects obliviousness as it suits him, consciously or not. He knows this about himself, too, as indicated by his regret over Martha.

And while the whole thing with the wristband is indeed a writerly manipulation for TW's sake (it must be, because I doubt it would be difficult to convince Ten that teleportation technology could prove to be the vital difference in a mission someday), we're stuck with finding a way to make it work on a character level for ourselves. For me, with my more cynical take on the Doctor, it's because there is some deeply buried level on which he simply doesn't trust Jack and probably never will just because of what Jack is. There are a million things he will entrust Jack with without hesitation, yes, but at the same time, he wants to keep Jack where he can see him.

Frankly, I don't disagree with him here. Jack is, by the very nature of his unnatural state of being (the human mind is not built to live forever) and everything he has gone through, an unstable individual. It's not a bad idea at all to ensure that he stays "captive" and able to wreak havoc on only one planet and one time period for as long as possible.

None of this is at all to say I dislike the Doctor, or Ten, or Nine. I love them. As I said, the Doctor is a complex character, and I enjoy seeing what he'll do or say next, even if I don't always like what it is. He's a wonderful creation precisely because there are things about him that kinda suck. If he were perfect, he'd be boring.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I am not generally a romantic sort of person.

While I am the essential romantic, probably the most romantically-inclined person you will ever meet. That doesn't mean I have a special taste for mush (I don't), or that I see the world through pink-coloured glasses, but I have a certain perspective that veers away from the pragmatic to the emotional and the heroic.

if a show leads to me to expect a high level of quality, I come to hold it to very high standards indeed. If it starts consistently failing to live up to those standards, I will start ripping at it.

I'm the same that way. If a show raises the standard (as Doctor Who does), then it should live up to that standard. Because demonstrably it can.

Nine was, I think, more prone to moments of kindness, but he could also be quite harsh

Granted. But I never felt his harshness was arbitrary. He judged people - look at his reaction to Mickey in "Rose". (Justified, I always felt!) Ten often has a different outlook - he likes Mickey. As an example. How would Ten treat Adam?

Ten ... He affects obliviousness as it suits him, consciously or not. He knows this about himself, too, as indicated by his regret over Martha.

Good point. Which is why it seems... I'm not sure what word to use. Wilful? Deliberate? Cruel, sometimes? Yet I feel he's being cruel to himself as often as to others, or more - and harsher in his self-judgements sometimes. Nine often became angry, but had a sense of interior tragedy. Seems to me that Ten is filled with anger, but expresses it indirectly.

the whole thing with the wristband is indeed a writerly manipulation for TW's sake

Yes. That, obviously, is the writer's motivation - but I need to decipher the Doctor's unspoken motivation. And I don't quite have it yet. I am hampered by a few things such as desperately wanting to believe he really does value Jack.

with my more cynical take on the Doctor, it's because there is some deeply buried level on which he simply doesn't trust Jack and probably never will just because of what Jack is.

Which "what"? Con man? Time Agent? Torchwood? Fixed point? Immortal? Soldier? All of the above? Given the Doctor's attitude to his human self in "Journey's End", I can imagine him blaming Jack for shooting and killing Dalek's on the Game Station, even though he himself sent him to do precisely that....

But I don't want to think Nine would see it that way.

Your logic that Jack is 'unstable' is understandable, but I don't see it. From what I've seen on screen, Jack seems much more stable than Ten.

I too enjoy the Doctor's complexity (good or bad) and enjoy the character much more when I can dissect and analyze and judge and reconsider him. Yes, I really do love him. That's why he's such fun to ponder - him and his motivations and his unspoken inner thoughts and feelings.

[catslash.livejournal.com]

- wow, did you just reply to this, or did LJ just totally fail on the e-mail alert?

I cannot even remember what we were discussing anymore, but I can pick up one or two threads.

Which "what"?

The frozen point in time thing. The Doctor's reaction to that is so instinctive and intrinsically part of being a Time Lord that I have a hard time believing he can dismiss it entirely. He can like Jack, respect Jack, value Jack - but there's always that primal "OH HELL NO" reaction on some level, no matter how deeply he buries it. I have to think that informs his overall method for dealing with Jack whether he wants it to or not. It's totally irrational and beyond his control.

Jack seems much more stable than Ten.

Yes, well - okay. You know those elements at the end of the periodic table? Those ones that get created, exist for like a second, and then go poof? Those are also more stable than Ten. ;)

Anyway, I was kind of understating myself. My take on Jack is, in brief, that his involuntary immortality and numerous, numerous deaths have driven him insane. I don't believe any human being could survive what he has with sanity intact, and his behavior on Torchwood consistently indicates that he is quite incapable of viewing the world from any sort of psychological perspective that a sane person could relate to. He is the only constant in his own life and he has lost touch with the idea that other peoples' lives count, too. He occasionally has moments of being able to remember that, but overall, he is one of the most screwed up characters on television and it drives me absolutely mental that the writers completely ignore that in favor of gay jokes.

So, yeah. I don't blame the Doctor for thinking twice about unleashing that on the universe at large any sooner than he can possibly avoid it. Perhaps he hopes that Jack's situation now will drive some sanity back into him and he'll start being able to empathize with other people again. I mean, if you accept the Face of Boe thing, then obviously something at some point went right. Maybe it was that.

. . . I have written about this so many times that at this point I could probably just go right ahead and compile and edit it all and call it a freaking thesis. XD The waste of potential that is Torchwood's take on Captain Jack Harkness really inspires my tl;dr side.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Granted. But I never felt his harshness was arbitrary. He judged people - look at his reaction to Mickey in "Rose". (Justified, I always felt!) Ten often has a different outlook - he likes Mickey. As an example. How would Ten treat Adam?

But Nine did change his attitude to Mickey over the course of the season. Yes, he wasn't impressed with him in Rose, but by the end of the Aliens of London two-parter he'd changed his mind because Mickey had risen to the occasion. IIRC, didn't he invite Mickey to join them and it was only because Mickey wasn't ready and didn't want Rose to know it that Nine made it look like he didn't want him around.

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

My way of explaining it is that Jack needs to find a home and a family (Torchwood), and the Dr. is making this possible by eliminating the time-travel temptation. Remember that John tries to tempt him with all the glories of the universe, and Jack insists on staying at Torchwood, like Christ rejected Satan's temptations in the desert.

Now does the Dr. have the right to determine what's good for Jack? Nah, but Jack always does that for everyone else, so it's nice to see the tables turned.

Jack and the Doctor...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My way of explaining it is that Jack needs to find a home and a family (Torchwood), and the Dr. is making this possible by eliminating the time-travel temptation.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not sure time-travel is a temptation for him... In any case, by taking away Jack's freedom to choose, isn't that destroying the moral element of choice?

I am happier to think it's the Doctor's way to try to keep Jack safe, rather than keeping the universe safe from Jack.

Now does the Dr. have the right to determine what's good for Jack? Nah, but Jack always does that for everyone else, so it's nice to see the tables turned.

Heh. They are so alike.

Re: Jack and the Doctor...

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

I agree-- I think it's incredibly high-handed of the Dr. to do that, but you know, Jack tends to be high-handed and do things for "your own good" without asking first, so maybe he kind of interprets it as a sign of love.

I doubt Jack would have stayed put all this time if he'd been able to travel freely-- he would have chased the Dr. instead of building the TW team. It's interesting, in a way, because there's a bit of a parallel with Angel. He started his own show in S3 of Buffy, and so there had to be reasons why he would leave her and stay away, and they didn't always make much sense.

At least I do feel like Dr. Who's action dismantling Jack's time strap and thus making it possible for him to have his own show makes more sense than the Angel one. :)

Re: Jack and the Doctor...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

so maybe he kind of interprets it as a sign of love.

I think he interprets any action on the Doctor's part in a positive light. Not an attitude I share, but I do quite love it that Jack feels that way.

I've been planning on writing a thing about the parallels between Jack and Angel. I like Jack umpteen times more but I see parallels all over the place. Maybe when I finish watching the first season of Buffy I'll list parallels I've noticed.

[liliaeth]

Or because he likes to know where to find Jack, easier to do so when he's stuck in one time. He might want to visit you know.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I hope he does visit. Often and frequently. I really do.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

The Doctor has become a self-righteous hypocritical controlling git!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The Doctor has become a self-righteous hypocritical controlling git!

When do you think this started? With "The Christmas Invasion"? That would imply it's characteristic of Ten but wasn't of Nine. Or am I misjudging?

At some point he shifted from changing people's lives to help them, to changing people's lives arbitrarily and judgementally. I'm trying to figure out how this happened, and when, and I'm still stuggling with it.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

With the Christmas Invasion. It's a feature exclusive to Ten.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm trying to argue myself out of believing that, but the evidence is the evidence, and clearly time-stamped. That was when he changed more than just his looks.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

I can't wait for eleven! I wish he had done a full regeneration in Journey's End.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wish he had done a full regeneration in Journey's End.

How cool that would have been. Just think how fandom would have been astonished. (We were astonished as it was.)

So what do you think Eleven will, or should be, like?

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

I wish he were a bit more like Methos. "Just because I don't like to fight doesn't I don't know how." He often seems to want to surrender first. He seems to be afraid of guns and self-defense. I wish he were a little bit more like Three(?) who was friends with the Brigadier.

More like Eight or Nine. I wish we could bring Gallifrey back. Without other Time Lords he's becoming unpleasant.


I hope that Eleven would have a sense of humor. He would like humans more and not have disguised contempt for them.

We may not have the technology or abilities that Time Lords have but we are adult free people. We don't want the Doctor as a benevolent dictator.

I'd like Eleven to be less mad and have a better sense of perspective about things. I like Torchwood but the endless innuendo from Capt Jack and PC from Gwen is annoying.

Maybe the Doctor is going down the slippery slope to being the Valeyard. I would like to see Eleven more cheerful or at least not quite so emo.

I'd love for the Moffat to make the new series more like Classic Who. It couldn't hurt for him to check out how JMS wrote the characters on B5.

[kensieg.livejournal.com]

Don't forget how he got Harriet Jones replaced as PM because he disagreed with her. How dare she do something that he didn't want! I think he's falling into TimeLorditis and thinking that he is a superior being and knows better than any human. Which leads into how dare any human disagree with me or do something without my consent.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not forgetting Harriet Jones - she's one of my favourite characters in the show, and I just came to like her more with "The Stolen Earth". The Doctor is so manifestly wrong... and moreso, I think he knows it. Yet doesn't admit his guilt. That goes beyond arrogance.

When Nine grumbled about "tiny ape brains" it seemed like an affectionate affectation. When Ten presumes to control humans... well. That's the kind of thing evil invading aliens like Cybermen and Sontarans do: think their ways are better and so they have the right to subjugate humans.

I would grumble more about the Doctor's high-handed treatment of Harriet Jones and Earth politics (not to mention Earth authonomy) in "The Christmas Invasion" except it pales beside my horror of his actions in, say, "The Last of the Time Lords" (where he valued one monstrous Time Lord at the expense of all of humanity).