Mini-rant...

[fajrdrako]

I would be really, really happy if I never read another Jack/Ianto fic in which Jack asks Ianto to stop calling him 'sir'.

Please.

Comments

[ell-dee.livejournal.com]

Hahahahaha.

Yes!

Personally I would be happy if I never read another fic (any fandom, any pairing) written by a person who doesn't know the difference between they're, their and there.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Glad to hear you agree. It was fine the first time. Really!

And I agree about they're, their and there. I would ad its and it's - which isn't to say I don't make that mistake from time to time, but I don't let it survive the proofreading.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

If a spelling mistake jumps out at me before I start reading a fic, I won't read it. If I've spotted one, it must be full of them.

I also have a thing against mispellings in titles.

[ell-dee.livejournal.com]

Let's not forget your and you're.

And the word 'cum', which I rant about regularly.

I make the it's and its mistake, but that's why I have a beta.

I do agree, I think I might write the one where Jack insists on being called Sir and gets all pissy when Ianto forgets.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Heee. *hugs*

[cupati.livejournal.com]

Love your icon!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah - !

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

Jack and Ianto playing pim pam pet (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim-pam-pet).
Jack spins the wheel, it is an S, the question on the card is "name a word to adress your lover."
Sir.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes! I love it!

Just think of all the famous phrases Ianto can use:
- "Please, sir, I want some more."
- "To Sir, With Love"

[reina-isabella.livejournal.com]

I'd have to agree - and I'll even cop to having it done it myself (actually, it was "captain," not "sir"), but I'm not particularly proud of it ...

I do love hearing the particular fic tropes that make people mental. For some reason, the buttons flying off when a shirt is ripped open drives me absolutely spare. Can't stand it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The problem with the button thing is that too many Jack/Ianto writers have used it... recently. Nothing is a cliche when it's just done once - but do it a dozen times and I groan to see it. I've read that several times in the last week alone. It might have been sexy the first time. The tenth time? Not so much.

The throw Ianto across Jack's desk for hot sex' scenario is running a little thin, too.

Each fandom seems to gather its own set of cliches.

[reina-isabella.livejournal.com]

The tenth time? Not so much.

Amen to that.

Each fandom seems to gather its own set of cliches.

Chicken-and-egg question: do they come about because writers are reading them in other people's work and they get subconsciously (well, or consciously) 'imprinted' and start popping up everywhere, I wonder?

Or is it something about the characters themselves that just makes everyone in the collective unconscious go, "Right! I really want to see them shag on Jack's desk with lots of buttons popping and Jack saying 'Don't call me sir!'?

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

Amen.

I am actually terrified of the fan response I would get if I wrote Jack/Ianto. Because not only would Jack not object to being called sir, Jack would accept a blow-job and/or sex the same way he takes his coffee. Affectionate enough, definitely, enjoying it - absolutely and entirely - but matter-of-factly and taking it for granted.

...I'm a bad woman, and I have a knee jerk response.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I am actually terrified of the fan response I would get if I wrote Jack/Ianto.

Evilly, this makes me wish you will do it.

Because not only would Jack not object to being called sir

Heh. I ask you: have we ever heard Jack object to Ianto calling him 'sir' in the episodes? under any circumstances? Not once.

Jack would accept a blow-job and/or sex the same way he takes his coffee.

What, hot and with milk?

...I'm a bad woman, and I have a knee jerk response.

I think I like your responses!

[order_of_chaos]

Jack: Ianto, stop calling me 'sir'.
Ianto: *pouts* You don't love me!
Jack: ...?
Ianto: You're trying to change me. You're not supposed to want to change me - you're... you're supposed to love me forever and ever. That's why you came back, isn't it?
Jack: *sweatdrops* You know what? Never mind. I'll just fall through this handy interdimensional Rift and go shag Rose. Goodbye.
Ianto: Jack? JACK! COME BACK!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes! Wonderful scenario! Good-bye, Jack!

[order_of_chaos]

*grin* Fun, isn't it?

A few days later...

Owen: Er... Ianto? You can stop calling me sir, now.
Ianto: *blinks innocently* But you're the boss, sir.
Owen: I don't care - just stop it. It's creepy.
Ianto: Yes, sir. Would you like a blowjob with your coffee, sir?
Owen: That's it. That's fucking it! I quit.

[trixtah.livejournal.com]

Word.

But, OMG, we can't imply that Ianto has a sub bone in his body, because their love is PURE and surpasses all notions of power.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

we can't imply that Ianto has a sub bone in his body

Aww shucks. I wouldn't mind. Really!

because their love is PURE

Oh. I see. I might have missed that.

surpasses all notions of power.

This makes me think that a lot of writers are really, really missing some inventive and interesting ramifications of the relationships. Makes me want to play up the power/age differential. Makes me want to play head games with Ianto.

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

hehe I don't even know the character yet (seen pics but that's about it), but I will say... what's not hot about some cute guy calling Jack sir? It just gets *hotter* the less professional their relationship gets :P

Random, unfounded thoughts... back to your regularly scheduled conversation!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't even know the character yet

Took me a while to feel I got to know him, but he's really quite delightful. Not my favourite pairing for Jack, but one of the delightful things about Jack is that different pairings work. And Ianto, of course, is canon, though they tease us with their lack of detail.

what's not hot about some cute guy calling Jack sir?

Well, yes!!!!

It just gets *hotter* the less professional their relationship gets :P

Exactly. I think that makes it more fun.

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

This thread reminds me of the time when I used to be in the CSI fandom, which has many different het/slash pairings. My CSI pairing happens to be Grissom/Greg, another example of "Boss fancied by everyone/young coffee boy". When I first discovered Jack/Ianto, I moaned "not again". And again I have to go through all these fannish cliches about coffee and about child abuse and...
Don't mistake me, I adore Ianto, I adore Greg, I love these two pairings. But some cliches are too much for me. Like child abuse. I hate child abuse stories. I can understand some people have rape fantasies, but I can't buy that anyone can have child abuse fantasies for himself/herself. Even "hate" isn't a strong enough word for me, I'm afraid.
And why, why all the young adults who make good coffee happen to be the victims of child abuse in the fanfiction world? Now I understand why I live on Nescafe all the time: maybe my childhood is just too happy...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My CSI pairing happens to be Grissom/Greg, another example of "Boss fancied by everyone/young coffee boy".

Hmm, I think I like that pattern. I should maybe watch CSI!

Though having said that, my preferred pairing for Captain Jack is Jack/Doctor, a very different dynamic, and I very much like Jack/Jack, which has a romantic power all its own, encapsulated into one evening of time with universal implications for Jack. So it isn't just the pattern of the 'charismatic immortal authority figure and the tea boy' that attracts me, though I do like the pattern of sexual interaction.... Usually as a mentor/acolyte thing, with a dollop of curiosity and hero-worship on the part of the young man. And a streak of internal conflict is rather nice too, such as Ianto's bursts of anger in "Cyberwoman". I like the way that contrasts and emphasises the switch to love.

As for child abuse - I see no reason to bring it into the story when it isn't canonical. Ianto has problems enough! Themes like that (for me) detract from the 'real' Ianto, the one depicted on the screen; it isn't an extrapolation from what we see, it's an added invention, and I don't like that. If it were a trivial point, I'd probably not mind, but childhood abuse isn't trivial enough to ignore as a minor theme for a character.

So it just adds up to being another fan cliche. In this case, one that crosses from one fandom to another - even worse!

I should probably make a list of 'things I don't want to see in fanfic'. Another thing that annoys me in Jack/Ianto stories is having Jack (or anyone) call Ianto "Yan". Partly it's because I like to pronounce Ianto's name with a full four syllables - really, Owen's the only one who ellides the first syllable into a 'y' sound, and that's just part of his London accent and his individual way of speaking. "Yan" to me sounds totally wrong for the precise and fastidious Ianto, and it sounds more Scandinavian than Welsh.

Part 1

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

Well, the biggest pairing(and canon now) in CSI is Grissom/Sara, aka GSR:)Really there're too many ships in the bay of CSI Las Vegas...

The best and worst thing about Jack/Ianto is that neither of the two is each other's Mr.Right. Lisa is the ideal lover for Ianto, the perfect match, and always will be. As for Jack, in the domain of same-sex relations, he has serious unsolved hero-worship issues. To whom he said words like "never doubted him never will" or "there's no one"? The Doctor and the original Captain Jack Harkness, two bigger heroes he can live up to in his eyes. Ianto can be courageous, but honestly he doesn't fall in this category. Jack and Ianto just happen to be at the right time, at the right place. They both need to be connected. Ianto needs to be needed, and Jack needs to make others feel better in order to make himself feel better. If Jack ever has a Mr. Right, it's the 1940s!Jack, the ultimate brother in arms. But often we don't even get the chance to meet the Mr Right, let alone together with him. So sometimes we have to accept what the life gives to us and learn to be happy about that. Such is for Jack and such is for Ianto. I think Jack comes to terms about this in his kissing Ianto in "End of Days". It's not about second best or anything like that. It's about what you seek and what you encounter. And Jack definitely knows how to cherish what he encounters.
But this is a very traditional romantic topic...very wrong in the case of Captain Jack Harkness then.
The hero-worship issue is, anyway, an important key to the personality of Jack. Guess it's impossible for him to be the perfect lover of a young man who hero-worships him. And here we see a parallel between 9th Doctor/Jack and Jack/Ianto. The 9th Doctor whose courage was admired by a young man who self-proclaimed as coward(Jack), also called himself a coward. That's why Jack isn't among the Doctor's priorities or Ianto isn't among Jack's priorities...they're not the good match, and their relationships aren't well-balanced.
That's the problem and the strongpoint about "charismatic authority figure/eager coffee boy" pairings. They're not equals, their relationship isn't going to be stable. There're always tensions.(But when everything is as ideal as Jack/Jack we'll have nothing to write about.)And it's always fun to watch the younger figure in the pairing to gradually grow up. When the younger figure has fully grown up, he won't need an authority figure any more. He won't need the courage of the other to be his own courage anymore.
(However, my favourite slash pairing type is not "authority figure/teaboy", but "what about a little love between two best friends". Like House/Wilson in "House", Hornblower/Archie and Hornblower/Bush in "Horatio Hornblower", Duncan/Methos in "Highlander". I even slashed some pairs of good friends in Dickens novels when I was a kid...blushing. Pity there's no such pairing in Doctor Who/Torchwood, except...except...Jack and his childhood friend? Somebody should write that back story.)

Part 2

[myfavouriteplum.livejournal.com]

In the angle of slash fanfic writers, I think Jack/Ianto is easier to write than Jack/Doctor or Jack/Jack. You can hardly add anything to Jack/Jack: it's already perfect there in the series. As for Jack/Doctor, one has to deal with Rose, who is too important to them both to be excluded in a story.(OT3 then.) And when a pairing has two exotic/enigmatic/ambiguous characters, it's a guarantee to kill the brain of a fanfic writer. I know my brain will explode facing the unconventionality of these two if I ever try to write one.

There're far more cliches travelling from fandom to fandom than we realize, and child abuse is a worst one. However, Ianto doesn't seem to me a person who has this sort of experience. It's far more likely for him to have lived a basically normal life before Canary Wharf: that's why the whole cyber!Lisa thing is even greater a shock and a tragedy to him. And his attitude in this tragedy is too positive to belong to someone who has been abused in childhood. An abused child won't have such confidence in fixing things. And an abused child often learns to believe what they've got is what they deserve. If he/she is abandoned or abused by the ones who should care about them, well, that's what things are like. He/she won't be in such a fury toward others like Ianto in "Cyberwoman". This is terrible, I know, but this is a way of self-protecting for us humans.

"Yan"...luckily I' not british and not sensitive at all when it comes to different regional accents. But I've got my own reason to dislike "Yan". I'm Chinese and "Yan" as a first name in Chinese is mostly for girls. So it's weird for me, too.