Torchwood: watching Adrift again...

[fajrdrako]

I watched "Adrift" again this evening with commodorified, iclysdale, raynedaze and auriaephiala. I enjoyed it once more, though it seemed even sadder this time.

A few more points and questions:

1. Jonah was taken by the Rift seven months ago. Jack was present. Jack was therefore in Cardiff seven months ago. Was that before he went to the end of the universe with the Doctor, or after he came back from the Valiant? If he was gone for six months, real time, does that mean either that he has only been back one month or less - unlikely in the extreme - or that it has been more than seven months since "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang"?
   
   
2. I loved PC Andy saying "Bloody Torchwood!"
   
   
3. Wondering again why Ianto gave Gwen the package that led her to the island with the hospice, I realized this time that Ianto had left the package on her desk before she had asked Jack to let her take on Jonah's case, and before Jack had told her 'no'. How did Ianto know she was going to reopen the case? How did he know to leave the information on her desk when she had presumably dropped it? He's smart, but not prescient. Had he expected her to find it, and to ask Jack what it led to?
   
   
4. As we got to the sex scene, iclysdale asked whether Jack or Ianto actually had a flat or any kind of a home - wondering why they couldn't just go home for sex. We thought it over: Jack certainly does not have any other home, he lives in the Hub - or under it. And Ianto? We've never seen his place, or ever had any reference to it. It seems likely that he has moved into the Hub with Jack.
   
   I'm sure Ianto would like that, anyway. And I can't think of any argument against it.
   
   I would add that even if Jack and Ianto did have somewhere to go, they obviously enjoy sex in the Hub. They could use the beds in the infirmary if they wanted to, or Jack's room. But where's the fun in that?
   
   
5. I noticed that in their conversation on the cliff, once Gwen touched Jack's hand, he couldn't say 'no' to her. Not that saying 'no' to her ever did any good, anyway.
   
   
6. Why does Gwen assume Jack won't allow maternity leave? She hasn't asked him.
   
   
7. maaseru wanted me to add that Nicky treated Gwen badly: that Gwen only investigated the case because Nickey wanted to, and she had no right to blame Gwen when she changed her mind. We agreed that, however bad the truth, in the end, knowing is better than not knowing.
   
   
8. I like the theory (promuglated by halfspokenwords and janne_d, that when Jack was bellowing for Ianto, it was because he'd been left somewhere in handcuffs.
   

Comments

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

We agreed that, however bad the truth, in the end, knowing is better than not knowing.

I thought it was interesting that in the end, Nicky wanted to not have known, because she wanted to have the hope back. It's in direct contrast to what they show us -- that her life before she knew was depressing (I want to say hopeless) and stuck, whereas afterwards she starts to move on.

I can understand wanting to have only the good memories and not the more recent ones, but to live in the prison that hope made for her doesn't seem healthy.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

I would say, from the outside, that it is better knowing. But maybe the truth is indeed to horrible sometimes? The reproduction of THE SCREAM was clearly lacking. Though Jonah did indeed seem distraught, his screaming wasn't outer worldly painful. Not like it would drive Gwen away with her hands pressing on her ears. I have in fact heard more pained screaming or screeching. So perhaps we should take that in account and enhance the picture somewhat. Make the situation of Jonah more dire, much more dire.

I think what Torchwood perhaps could do was fake proof that the missed ones are dead. That would end the living in hope, but without confrontation with something that is supposedly worse than the dreadful truth of the dead of you loved one.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

maybe the truth is indeed too horrible sometimes?

Too horrible for what? I tmay be painful, but facing the truth is the most strengthening and liberating experience there is. I like to think that Nicky may find the strength to cope.

Though Jonah did indeed seem distraught, his screaming wasn't outer worldly painful.

I assumed that our televisions are just not good enough to reproduce the full sound of his anguish.

I think what Torchwood perhaps could do was fake proof that the missed ones are dead.

I wonder why they don't? They do it with the dead, like the porter in "Everything Changes". Perhaps it's because Jack holds out a little portion of unadmitted hope that these people may be cured or helped, and returned to the world, in which case, he'd want to put them back into the lives they had before, not manufactured existences such as he tried to make for the "Out of Time" time travellers.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it's because Jack holds out a little portion of unadmitted hope that these people may be cured or helped, and returned to the world, in which case, he'd want to put them back into the lives they had before, not manufactured existences such as he tried to make for the "Out of Time" time travellers.

Unlikely I'd say. Could be sort of possible if the people were only scarred and inside and outside and they could get healed of that. But remember they have aged. Torchwood would need to rejuvenate them. though considering all the aging and unaging going on in the series it might even be possible. (But I will get angry!!!)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Impossible to know what Jack is thinking, then - I can't offhand think of any better theories. I will continue to ponder.

[clancy-s.livejournal.com]

Here from your link on torch_wood on a quiet day.

Too horrible for what? I tmay be painful, but facing the truth is the most strengthening and liberating experience there is.

Do you have children? I've seen several posts from mothers saying that knowing your child is alive, insane and suffering isn't something you get move on from in any way. If they'd faked his death yes, maybe it would (eventually) have let her move on but as things are she can't.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I do have friends whose children are alive, insane, and (often) suffering, and life certainly isn't a piece of cake for them. It certainly isn't a situation of easy answers or solutions - as I think Captain Jack was well aware.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

her life before she knew was depressing (I want to say hopeless) and stuck, whereas afterwards she starts to move on.

Yes, exactly. Whether she wanted to or not, she had grown from the experience, and got out of the stasis she was in. I liked the way she took positive steps to organize the support group in the first place - I'd like to think she can cope even with this. She can still talk to Jonah, and see him. That's the reality: she may not like it, but I'd like to see her show courage rather than denial.

I can understand wanting to have only the good memories and not the more recent ones

What she really wants is for bad things not to happen, but that isn't what life offers us. We get what we get.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

when Jack was bellowing for Ianto, it was because he'd been left somewhere in handcuffs.

Oh, THANK YOU for that suggestion! I was hopelessly confused about that. I mean, no matter how horny Jack is, it's not THAT difficult to walk over to the coffee station. Unless he is otherwise prevented from moving. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

no matter how horny Jack is, it's not THAT difficult to walk over to the coffee station. Unless he is otherwise prevented from moving.

There was something both self-satisfied and distracted about Ianto in that scene; the 'handcuffs' explanation makes perfect sense of it all. And I like the sense that while Gwen is doing all this, and Tosh and Owen are working on whatever they are working on, Jack and Ianto back at the Hub are playing and having a wonderful time.

[sublunaerie.livejournal.com]

And it ties in very nicely with the BBC-A Captain's Blog entry for "Dead Man Walking." I like it!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh? What does the blog say?

[sublunaerie.livejournal.com]

Other Staff issues: In big trouble with Ianto for risking everything to go and get the second glove. I should have told him before I went, but he’d probably have cuffed me to the chair to stop me. And I’ve fallen for that one way too many times.

Like I said, fits in VERY nicely :) I think the speculation is practically canon.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh my goodness: a perfect fit, and I don't mean the glove!

Yes, I think that our speculation is what the writers intended us to figure out. I love them for it.

[ceindreadh.livejournal.com]

Jonah was taken by the Rift seven months ago. Jack was present. Jack was therefore in Cardiff seven months ago. Was that before he went to the end of the universe with the Doctor, or after he came back from the Valiant? If he was gone for six months, real time, does that mean either that he has only been back one month or less - unlikely in the extreme - or that it has been more than seven months since "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang"?

Do we know for sure that Jack was gone for six months 'real time'?
I thought it was never actually stated on either show. He could have been only gone for 2 or 3 months, which would have left him time to check out Jonah's dissappearance, go, come back, and KKBB would only have been 4 or 5 months earlier.

Wondering again why Ianto gave Gwen the package that led her to the island with the hospice,

Did Ianto say he'd left the package or simply that there was a package on Gwen's desk. Is it possible that somebody else left the package and Ianto's passing on info or that somebody gave him the package to leave there. See I have a theory that Owen also knew about the hospice and maybe he was involved in giving Gwen a clue. As for how Ianto knew Gwen would keep up with the case? This is Ianto, he knows everything ;-) but seriously I think that Ianto was just smart enough to know that Gwen wouldn't let it go.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Do we know for sure that Jack was gone for six months 'real time'?I thought it was never actually stated on either show.

it wasn't actually on television, no. Neither show. It all depends what is acceptable to you as canon. "Six months" makes sense to me, given what we've seen; going by the shows alone, three months is possible, but for both the extent of changes and the reaction of the Team, six months makes more sense to me.

Did Ianto say he'd left the package or simply that there was a package on Gwen's desk.

He said there was a package. But Gwen believed he had left it, and I think there are various things that makes it plausible that he did: that Ianto and Jack seemed to be arguing over the matter of whether to tell her; that Ianto says he knows "everything" about Torchwood; that he told her about the package; that no one else seems as likely a culprit. It could have been Owen, but he is in this episode so little that to make him a hidden part of the plot seems unsatisfying to me.

I think that Ianto was just smart enough to know that Gwen wouldn't let it go.

I think Jack knew that too, but it had become a battle of wills.

I think also that Ianto wanted Gwen to know, thought Jack should tell her, and this was his way of making sure it happened. Ianto wanted Gwen to know even if she did let it go.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

I loved PC Andy saying "Bloody Torchwood!"

I liked him saying "you've got a face like a slapped arse" to Gwen. Made me laugh.

Why does Gwen assume Jack won't allow maternity leave? She hasn't asked him

I suspect there isn't a policy for it. But Gwen is probably thinking that they are already effectively a man down when it comes to field work because Owen is so fragile now that he is dead - though I'm not sure they are actually sticking to that on the program.

I like the theory (promuglated by halfspokenwords and janne_d, that when Jack was bellowing for Ianto, it was because he'd been left somewhere in handcuffs.

Oh, it's not just us. I've seen many reviews that said the exact same thing. So either watching Torchwood promotes this kind of thinking, or we are watching Torchwood because our minds work like that anyway... chicken or egg?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I liked him saying "you've got a face like a slapped arse" to Gwen. Made me laugh.

Yes, me too. Andy is wonderful. I love the way Gwen and Andy act together. They seem so natural - as if the actors have a real rapport.

Re maternity leave:
I suspect there isn't a policy for it.

Well, no, that's the point. Gwen could always raise the issue - negotiate with Jack, or at least see how he feels about it. Perhaps she is using it as a factor in her own uncertainty about whether she wants children? Or maybe she thought she want children, but the idea of being sidelines to a desk job at Torchwood, or part-time work, or putting her life in danger constantly when she had dependents - maybe that is all just too much for her? Maybe she has changed her mind, and doesn't want to put it that way to Rhys?

Owen is so fragile now that he is dead - though I'm not sure they are actually sticking to that on the program.

Yes, he's dead still, and fragile - you can tell by the mummy-like wrappings on his hand.

So either watching Torchwood promotes this kind of thinking, or we are watching Torchwood because our minds work like that anyway... chicken or egg?

It just means that watching Torchwood means we are insightful and perceptive viewers, that's all.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Yes, he's dead still, and fragile - you can tell by the mummy-like wrappings on his hand

I meant more that if they were really sticking to that, there is no way Owen should be going on field missions - but next episode, there he is.

Have you watched Fragments yet? Possibly the best episode so far. (Squee!)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I meant more that if they were really sticking to that, there is no way Owen should be going on field missions - but next episode, there he is.

Maybe he wants to go - and Jack doesn't think it's right to argue with a dead guy?

Maybe Jack thinks Owen's future is limited anyway, so might as well let him enjoy what's left to him among the living?

Have you watched Fragments yet? Possibly the best episode so far. (Squee!)

I just finished two minutes ago. SQUEEE!

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

4. I am actually in a twiz to see Ianto's place. Though I realize that it says more about him that we don't see it, I love him and want to see his perch. I said "nest" originally, but I'm sure he's a percher, not a nester. He won't have had time, with taking care of Lisa and now taking care of Jack.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I am actually in a twiz to see Ianto's place.

I've been wanting to see it, too. Which is one reason I like the idea that he doesn't actually have one - it means we have seen his place, we're seeing it every episode, we just didn't know. It also means his life is that much more closely connected to Jack's.

We know he hardly ever "went home" when he was caring for Lisa in the basement. The subject of Ianto going home hasn't come up lately - I'll have to keep my eyes open for it.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Why does Gwen assume Jack won't allow maternity leave? She hasn't asked him.

... maybe it's in the Employee Handbook?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Maybe. But if Gwen wants something, she usually goes after it, and Jack seems to be... amenable to giving her what she wants. Not exactly putty in her hands - he puts up a fight sometimes - but then lets her have her way.

Employee's handbooks can be revised, especially when there are only 4 employees. And I don't see Jack as a stickler for rules. Ever.