Buffy (2x14) Innocence....

[fajrdrako]

Shouldn't the title be "Loss of Innocence"?

The episode starts with Spike. This bodes well: I like an episode that starts with Spike.

And then it carries on with Angel...

1. Angel says, "The pain is gone...I feel just fine." Given what we know of his situation, this is terrifying. What will Angel be, without his pain?
   
   
2. Buffy calls Willow "a fun machine". Heh.
   
   
3. Xander says, "a four-hundred-pound wino offered to wash my hair." What?
   
   
4. I like Willow's way with words: "My God, you people are all... Well, I'm upset, and I can't think of a mean word right now, but that's what you are."
   
   
5. I like the way Buffy is so worried about Angel. No, not just worried: frightened. Good instincts.
   
   
6. Wonderful dialogue between Spike and Drusilla:

   Spike: Are we feeling better, then?
   Drusilla: I'm naming all the stars.
   Spike: You can't see the stars, love. That's the ceiling. Also, it's day.
   Drusilla: I can see them. But I've named them all the same name. And there's terrible confusion.

   
   
7. The Angel walks in. And they don't know what to make of it; but his dialogue is so in keeping with theirs, in a way it couldn't and wouldn't have been a day earlier. Now he has a sense of humour, too - as dark as theirs.
   
   
8. And then the Judge's fateful pronouncemnet: "There's no humanity in him." Handy that they had a humanity-meter on the premises to check this out, give Angel a clean bill of non-humanity. But - though I joke - it's a strong moment.
   
   
9. And Angel's wonderful synopsis: "I was going through a phase."
   
   
10. Love the interaction when Spike says, "It made me sick to my stomach seeing you being the Slayer's lap dog." And then Angel snarls and kisses him.
    
    
11. Another great Angel line about Buffy: "She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of thing you just forgive."
    
    
12. Love the phone call between Buffy and Willow. We hear Willow's side of it: "Okay. No, no, he didn't, but I'm sure he'll... Well, Buffy, he probably has some plan, and he's trying to protect you. Well, I-I don't know what. I'm not in on the plan. It's his plan. No. Don't even say that! Angel is not dead." But he is. I suspect that Buffy suspects that already. Willow is trying to be optimistic, but she's baffled as to what happened.
    
    
13. Another line I love - Willow to Xander about Buffy - "She's checked every place she can think of. She even beat up Willy the snitch a couple of times." I love this because I love Willy the Snitch.
    
    
14. Cordelia says to Xander, "You were too busy rushing off to die for your beloved Buffy. You'd never die for me." Is this maybe revealing her motives - that she's afraid to care about Xander because she knows he loves Buffy, and she feels she can't compete?
    
    
15. Then they kiss and Willows sees them and freaks.
    
    
16. Willow's dialogue is just superb in this episode. "I knew it! I knew it! Well, not 'knew it' in the sense of having the slightest idea, but I knew there was something I didn't know."
    
    
17. So Buffy finds and confronts Angel at his place and he's verbally mean to her. The best part"

    Buffy: Angel! I love you.
    Angel: Love you, too.

    Beautifully delivered, by both of them. Chilling!
    
    
18. Those Gypsies turn out to be even more cruel than it seemed. Enyos says, "To the modern man vengeance is a verb, an idea. Payback. One thing for another. Like commerce. Not with us. Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It commands. It kills." No sense of justice here - just a desire to make Angel pay. He says it later on: "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance." Jenny figures out that this means "Angelus is back." (Why did I instantly think, "Lymond is back?" when I typed that? Don't answer that.)
    
    
19. Enyos says, "I hoped to stop it." Stop what? Oh - Buffy and Angel getting together, Angel being happy, Angel therefore reverting to Angelus. Right. He does on, "But I realize now it was arranged to be so." Arranged? By who? Is Enyos a fatalist? Or is he blaming someone?
    
    
20. Love this bit:

    Jenny: Buffy loves him.
    Enyos: And now she will have to kill him.

    
    
    
21. I like Willow's speech to Xander: "Let's get this straight. I don't understand it, I don't wanna understand it, you have gross emotional problems, and things are not okay between us. But what's happening right now is more important than that." I like her sense of pragmatism here. At the same time, I'm not very sympathetic with her judgement on Xander's life: she knows he doesn't love her, and she has no hold over him - even as a friend, or especially as a friend - to dictate how he should conduct his love life. She doesn't like Cordelia, but she hasn't much of a right to be upset if he actually does - people change their minds. It isn't as if she fears he's using and abusing Cordelia. It's that she's angry with Xander for not wanting her. Which isn't fair in the least - he doesn't owe her an explanation or anything else. Especially given her romantic friendship with Oz.
    
    This being said, I still love Willow.
    
    
22. Good Xander speech: "Whoa. Whoa! I... I think I'm having a thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a thought. Now I'm having a plan." I like the way we go through the process of Xander's plan without knowing anything about it - and that Cordelia doesn't know either, but plays her part beautifully. Lucky for Xander the soldier on duty was an idiot.
    
    
23. Good Buffy/Angel exchange:

    Buffy: Angel, there must be some part of you inside that still remembers who you are. Angel: Dream on, schoolgirl.

    
    
24. Wonderful Giles line:

    Cordelia: What are we gonna do?
    Giles: I'm leaning towards blind panic myself.

    
    
25. Nice line from Angel: "To kill this girl... you have to love her." I suppose I ought to be calling him "Angelus" but I like calling him "Angel."
    
    
26. Buffy attacks Jenny. I love it. And of course by now we know Enyos is doomed. Assuming we didn't figure he was doomed as soon as we first saw him.
    
    
27. My favourite line in all of this is Buffy's: "Curse him again." But of course it doesn't work that way.
    
    
28. And if it did work that way, she would be cursed to love him forever but never able to touch him, in case she might accidentally make him happy and set everything off again...
    
    
29. And Oz has a lovely romantic side to him: "Sometimes when I'm sitting in class... You know, I'm not thinking about class, 'cause that would never happen. I think about kissing you. And it's like everything stops. It's like, it's like freeze frame. Willow kissage." And even better: "in my fantasy, when I'm kissing *you*, you're kissing *me*."
    
    
30. And then another one of those great moments:

    Buffy: He's only making it easier. I know what I have to do.
    Giles: What?
    Buffy: Kill him.

    
    
31. I like Angel's flirty attitude, especially when he calls the Judge "spiffy".
    
    
32. I like it that Giles is allied with Buffy in telling Jenny to get out. And that she does.
    
    
33. So there's a shootout at the mall. How... suburban. Or something. I prefer the more gothic locales.
    
    
34. There's something absurdly hilarious about everyone picking up pieces of exploded demon.
    
    
35. Best of all, Buffy doesn't kill Angel.
    
    
36. And predictably, maybe by favourite bit of all - well, after Buffy's resolve to kill Angel - is her conversation with Giles:

    Buffy: You must be so disappointed in me.
    Giles: No. No, no, I'm not.
    Buffy: But this is all my fault.
    Giles: No. I don't believe it is. Do you want me to wag my finger at you and tell you that you acted rashly? You did. A-and I can. I know that you loved him. And... he... has proven more than once that he loved you. You couldn't have known what would happen. The coming months are going to, are going to be hard... I suspect on all of us, but... if it's guilt you're looking for, Buffy, I'm, I'm not your man. All you will get from me is, is my support. And my respect.

    I think the relationship between Giles and Buffy is my favourite of the whole show.
    
    
37. Conversation with Joyce:

    Joyce: But we're still going shopping on Saturday. So what'd you do for your birthday? Did you have fun?
    Buffy: I got older.

    Joyce must realize Buffy is upset - does she think it's just teen troubles?
    

Comments

[chatona.livejournal.com]

Whut? Angel kisses Spike? *perks up*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What, you missed it? Forehead kiss. Cute. Very cute.

[chatona.livejournal.com]

Never watched Buffy. Or Angel, for that matter. I think I saw... two episodes of Buffy? And one of them was the musical one *nods*

[anaross.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten how ominous the story was getting. Just wait.

I love the Spike-Angel interaction. Spike hates him, but loves him too, and that helplessness of sorting out his feelings-- his willingness to feel them both-- is what makes him such an old-style (I mean, like medieval) romantic hero.
Anaross

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten how ominous the story was getting. Just wait.

Oh. Okay.

I love the Spike-Angel interaction.

As do I. I'd thought Angel was interesting with Buffy, and he was. But he's evenm ore interesting sith Spike and Drusilla.

Spike hates him, but loves him too, and that helplessness of sorting out his feelings-- his willingness to feel them both-- is what makes him such an old-style (I mean, like medieval) romantic hero.

I love all of that. Marsters' acting is brilliant, too.

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

The relationship between Buffy and Giles is a thing of beauty, and that's one of my favourite conversations. Giles knows he doesn't have any moral high ground when it comes to foolish teen actions and he doesn't pretend to.

I keep forgetting how much is packed into this episode; every third or fourth point you made had me saying, wait that was this episode?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The relationship between Buffy and Giles is a thing of beauty, and that's one of my favourite conversations.

Insofar as I've seen, I agree absolutely.

Giles knows he doesn't have any moral high ground when it comes to foolish teen actions and he doesn't pretend to.

As far as I can tell, Giles never takes the high moral ground at all. He's doing his work as Watcher as best he can, and he takes it seriously, but he's not self-righteous at all.

every third or fourth point you made had me saying, wait that was this episode?

Yes. There are scenes of power in just about every one at this point.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

Makes me want to go back and watch them all again - in order, from the start. Daughter has them on good old VHS and we still have video player somewhere....

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Makes me want to go back and watch them all again - in order, from the start.

Like I'm doing? (except for me, it's the first time.) It's great fun. Why not?

Daughter has them on good old VHS and we still have video player somewhere....

So very handy!

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Shouldn't the title be "Loss of Innocence"?

But that would be so straightforward.

What will Angel be, without his pain?

More fun???

The Angel walks in. Now he has a sense of humour, too - as dark as theirs.

QED

Handy that they had a humanity-meter on the premises to check this out

The one good use of that guy.

Is Enyos a fatalist?

I think so. Isn't that a classic gypsy trait? It's a pity he's meant to be so cliched.

Xander's love life - I think Willow would have taken it somewhat better if she was there for the gradual buildup rather than find out her best friend was having a hot relationship with someone behind her back. Xander's love life feeds a lot of plot and episodes to come, so I'm not commenting any further.

Now I'm having a plan." I like the way we go through the process of Xander's plan without knowing anything about it

I love Xander's soldier knowledge. Ethan Rayne saves the day without even knowing it. Give the man credit. Give credit to Chaos.

I suppose I ought to be calling him "Angelus" but I like calling him "Angel."

Yes. I find it surprisingly confusing.

And of course by now we know Enyos is doomed. Assuming we didn't figure he was doomed as soon as we first saw him.

LOL

My favourite line in all of this is Buffy's: "Curse him again." But of course it doesn't work that way.

*sigh*

I like it that Giles is allied with Buffy in telling Jenny to get out. And that she does.

Agreed. Isn't honesty a bitch.
They're all having masks in their love lives, aren't they. Buffy/Angel, Giles/Jenny and Xander/Cordy. And in this ep, a lot of those masks are removed.
I love when he tries to logically figure out what set off the transformation and is a bit slow on the uptake here and before.

So there's a shootout at the mall. How... suburban. Or something. I prefer the more gothic locales.

Have to be reminded we're in Sunny Cal i the 90s. Urban-suburban is the natural surrounding.

Giles: If it's guilt you're looking for, Buffy, I'm, I'm not your man. All you will get from me is, is my support. And my respect.

He's so good at not assigning guilt anywhere but on himself.

*Oh, I didn't remember the visual with Giles carrying the box was from this ep.*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

that would be so straightforward.

Yes, and it works as is for a lot of reasons:
1. irony
2. a loss of innocence is about innocence, and this highlights the contrast
3. food for thought into who is innocent and in what ways, and what innocence consists of - Angel too has his level of innocence in not understanding (if I read it right) how seriously hooked he is on Buffy, good or bad
4. Buffy herself realizes the hold Angel has on her and the process she's going through - in a way, she hasn't lost enough innocence

More fun???

So it seems!

I think so. Isn't that a classic gypsy trait? It's a pity he's meant to be so cliched.

Yes. As themes go, or mini-themes, I really like this one. Do we see more of the gypsies or is that it? - no, maybe I shouldn't ask that. Spoiler-fodder. I rescind the question.

Willow would have taken it somewhat better if she was there for the gradual buildup rather than find out her best friend was having a hot relationship with someone behind her back.

As I currently interpret it: Willow knew Xander didn't love her, but she put a lot of stoke in her role as his best friend and confidante - and then she finds out he's been making out with Cordelia while pretending to hate her, and Willow feels betrayed - not just that Cordelia's getting what she wants and she's jealous, but that Xander doesn't trust her with his secrets and she can't trust him.

I'd continue with my current confusion but I'm a few episodes ahead of myself in the watching (as opposed to commenting) so I'll save that till I get there.

Willow would have taken it somewhat better if she was there for the gradual buildup rather than find out her best friend was having a hot relationship with someone behind her back.

Hee - good point! Good training for Xander.

I love when he tries to logically figure out what set off the transformation and is a bit slow on the uptake here and before.

Uh-huh. Time to put 2 and 2 together. Or 1 and 1 in this case.

Urban-suburban is the natural surrounding.

Yeah. Take me back to the cemetary and the crypts! and the spooky big churches! but I do like the school as a setting, and Buffy's house, and the streets and alleys, and the Bronze....

He's so good at not assigning guilt anywhere but on himself.

I've known people like that. And the opposite, which is annoying.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

in a way, she hasn't lost enough innocence
*nods.

More fun???
So it seems!

I don't like either Angel or Angelus. But he does produce lovely reactions from Spike.
Thing is, what he loses isn't humanity, it's the guilt. The individuality and emotional level we see with Spike and Dru and in others.

Spoiler-fodder. I rescind the question.
Duely rescinded. Not that I was going to answer anyway.


As I currently interpret it: Willow knew Xander didn't love her, but she put a lot of stoke in her role as his best friend and confidante - and then she finds out he's been making out with Cordelia while pretending to hate her, and Willow feels betrayed

There's the betrayal of trust and there's the Cordelia thing. It's pointed at various spots from the very beginning that Cordy personally made life miserable for Willow and Xander since they were young. They jointly hate her for a reason. For him to turn around and be intimate and loving with her in particular, especially hiding it from Willow instead of discussing the change - that's a double betrayal.

Hee - good point! Good training for Xander.
I think you got the copy-pasting wrong. Did you mean to say this about the soldier training?

Uh-huh. Time to put 2 and 2 together. Or 1 and 1 in this case.
He's so busy thinking of her either in terms of the supernatural or in terms of a young school kid.

He's so good at not assigning guilt anywhere but on himself.

I've known people like that. And the opposite, which is annoying.

Yeah. That's childish. But the eternal guild is annoying too. And it so easily obscure everything.

[flautopiccolo.livejournal.com]

[Oh, I didn't remember the visual with Giles carrying the box was from this ep.]

And I had been trying to remember which episode had Willow with the little monkey all dressed up. So I was happy to see that visual in the teaser for Surprise, in Buffy's surreal dream.

[gillo]

You didn't mention one of my all-time favourite lines from this episode -

Xander: I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex.

"Linoleum" has become a family catchword when referring to teenage boys.

Wonderful dialogue between Spike and Drusilla:

As always. I love her surreality contrasted with his pragmatism.

And then the Judge's fateful pronouncemnet: "There's no humanity in him." Handy that they had a humanity-meter on the premises to check this out, give Angel a clean bill of non-humanity. But - though I joke - it's a strong moment.

Very much so - but notice that Spike and Dru reek of humanity. Our boy never was an ordinary vampire. That whole scene is just wonderful from all three of them, though.

So Buffy finds and confronts Angel at his place and he's verbally mean to her. The best part"

Buffy: Angel! I love you.
Angel: Love you, too.

Beautifully delivered, by both of them. Chilling!

It's so horrifically true - sleep with your boyfriend and next morning he's changed. Superb.

Nice line from Angel: "To kill this girl... you have to love her." I suppose I ought to be calling him "Angelus" but I like calling him "Angel."

Which, of course, is Buffy's problem. And a lot of debate in the fandom about why he changes so much when his soul goes.

And Oz has a lovely romantic side to him: "Sometimes when I'm sitting in class... You know, I'm not thinking about class, 'cause that would never happen. I think about kissing you. And it's like everything stops. It's like, it's like freeze frame. Willow kissage." And even better: "in my fantasy, when I'm kissing *you*, you're kissing *me*."

Oz is not influenced by linoleum.

There's something absurdly hilarious about everyone picking up pieces of exploded demon.

Not accidental. The true horror in this episode has little to do with the Judge.

Best of all, Buffy doesn't kill Angel.

When your boyfriend goes mean you want to find reasons why it might not be permanent.

I think the relationship between Giles and Buffy is my favourite of the whole show.

I love it, but there are others I love even more.

Joyce must realize Buffy is upset - does she think it's just teen troubles?

Poor Joyce doesn't even know Buffy has a steady boyfriend, so she really has no idea. Yet.

If you hadn't loved this episode I would have had to give up on you in disgust. Virtually every scene is pitch-perfect. The actors are at the top of their game and the dialogue is wonderful - heartbreaking, creepy and funny by turns.

But it gets even better. In time.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm seventeen. Looking at linoleum makes me wanna have sex.

It is a great line, particularly from Xander. But I confess... I am neither seventeen nor male and I suffer from the same ailment. Depending, I suppose, on the linoleum.

I love her surreality contrasted with his pragmatism.

yes, wonderful contrast. And yet at the same time, she's the one with the streak of dark cruelty and he's the one with the romantic heart. Paradoxes all over the place.

Very much so - but notice that Spike and Dru reek of humanity. Our boy never was an ordinary vampire.

Yes. Intriguing, that. Lovely. And at this stage of the story, this may be why Angel can and does manipulate Spike and Dru.

It's so horrifically true - sleep with your boyfriend and next morning he's changed. Superb.

Everybody's worse romantic nightmare. Give your heart and get it broken and trampled. Yeech.

a lot of debate in the fandom about why he changes so much when his soul goes.

Interesting. That hadn't even struck me as a question. It's just the way it works. What is interesting is that (anticipating the next few episodes in advance), Angel is still obsessed with Buffy. So to my mind the question is: why didn't he change even more?

Oz is not influenced by linoleum.

Or at least... he is able to play long-term strategy for maximum gain.

I think the relationship between Giles and Buffy is my favourite of the whole show.

I love it, but there are others I love even more.

For instance? Or would that involve spoilers?

If you hadn't loved this episode I would have had to give up on you in disgust.

I think you knew that I would.

[namastenancy.livejournal.com]

I have decided that what I will do on my summer vacation is rewatch Buffy. I have everything on tape and these posts have reminded me how darn good the show was. ASH and Marsters were never better and the dialog for all the characters was brilliant.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have decided that what I will do on my summer vacation is rewatch Buffy.

Wonderful! and if you have comments to share, I'd love to hear them.

ASH and Marsters were never better and the dialog for all the characters was brilliant.

Yes. It's a very clever show, with two great strengths so far:

(1) good banter anda good ear for dialogue - I don't mean realistic dialogue, but clever dialogue - snappy, meaningful, multilayered and entertaining

(2) very good set-up of character and situation, so that the plot developments that happen, when they happen, have maximum impact

A little Dunnett-like that way.

[hedda62.livejournal.com]

Oh, this was such a great episode! *remembers happily*

Drusilla: I can see them. But I've named them all the same name. And there's terrible confusion.

That is such a River line. Sometimes there's bleedover...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, this was such a great episode!

It really was. Superb.

That is such a River line.

It really is. Especially since Drusilla was lying down when she said it.

Sometimes there's bleedover...

Seeing Drusilla has made me understand River better.

fit the first

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love this episode. Bring on the pain, we can take it.

Angel says, "The pain is gone...I feel just fine."

I wonder somewhat how much Angel knew about what was about to happen. He certainly seemed to be trying to get as far away from Buffy as possible and he does say "oh no" right before the change. I don't think he knew about the happiness clause in the curse but I think he could feel it.

I adore the visual of Angelus blowing out the smoke he's picked up from the hooker's throat.

Picking up this:
I suppose I ought to be calling him "Angelus" but I like calling him "Angel."

the trend is usually to differentiate between them - I find it less confusing myself, though as things change and develop through the series, the dividing line between souled and unsouled gets to be a complex question. But certainly at this point, I usually think of them as being two different people.

A bit I liked when Buffy goes home is that the costume people put a rip in her top to keep the continuity or her back being cut. Because I am sad and actually noticed.

Xander says, "a four-hundred-pound wino offered to wash my hair." What?

I believe the idea is that perverts and weirdos hang out in the bus station at night and Xander had a few interesting encounters while watching for Judge-parts.

I like Willow's way with words: "My God, you people are all... Well, I'm upset, and I can't think of a mean word right now, but that's what you are."

I like that bit too - you're right that Willow has some great lines this episode. I agree with all your examples.

Ditto on the Spike/Dru conversation about the stars.

Angel walks in. And they don't know what to make of it; but his dialogue is so in keeping with theirs

I have a fondness of his mock-heroic speech. Turning the cheesiness up to the max, and it's so obvious Angel wouldn't have said that. Angelus has a decidedely nasty sense of humour, but it is definitely there. I like the dig about Spike rolling that gets inserted in the middle too.

the Judge's fateful pronouncement: "There's no humanity in him." Handy that they had a humanity-meter on the premises to check this out

Listening to JW's commentary, that is actually a main function of the Judge. He's there to show Spike and Dru and, just as importantly, the audience that this is unequivocally not a trick by Angel. He really has gone totally evil.

It's also an intriguing comment in light of the Judge's reaction to Spike and Dru - it shows that Angelus is on another level of bad even from them.

Plus he smokes. TV-code for evil.

"You were too busy rushing off to die for your beloved Buffy. You'd never die for me." Is this maybe revealing her motives

I think Cordelia is maybe a little insecure about her place in Xander's affections.

Buffy: Angel! I love you.
Angel: Love you, too.
Beautifully delivered, by both of them. Chilling!

The bit that really gets me is when he says "I'll call you".

Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It commands. It kills." No sense of justice here - just a desire to make Angel pay. He says it later on: "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance."

I always think at this point "vengeance is really stupid" though I do like the way he explains it. JW talks in the commentary about how the concept of vengeance being a living thing, like an irrational god that they serve, really made him able to make sense of all the things that needed to tie together - Jenny's mission when it had never been mentioned she was a gypsy, why the curse worked like that.

Good Xander speech: "Whoa. Whoa! I... I think I'm having a thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a thought. Now I'm having a plan."

I like: "now I'm having a wiggins". It makes me laugh. Also, I noticed watching this again that Xander's instincts in that scene are better than Willow's about Angel - he turns back and you can see he's thinking something is going on.

Re: fit the first

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I love this episode. Bring on the pain, we can take it.

You masochist. (And yes, I agree absolutely!)

I wonder somewhat how much Angel knew about what was about to happen.

Presumably if he had any clue about it he woudln't have had sex with Buffy - unless he thought he could outsmart fate somehow. It seems more likely he just had no clue, and then felt the changes happening. (Shudder!)

I adore the visual of Angelus blowing out the smoke he's picked up from the hooker's throat.

That was wonderful.

the trend is usually to differentiate between them

Yes, and I'm not sure why my impulse is to do the opposite. Something abut my own theory/interpretation that Angel and Angelus are the same, despite appearances. I tend to go for such synthesis-type interpretations of things. Polarization of the singular psyche.

A bit I liked when Buffy goes home is that the costume people put a rip in her top to keep the continuity or her back being cut. Because I am sad and actually noticed.

Well done!

Xander had a few interesting encounters while watching for Judge-parts.

I'm sure clean hair is a good consequence. [g]

He's there to show Spike and Dru and, just as importantly, the audience that this is unequivocally not a trick by Angel. He really has gone totally evil.

Cleverly done.

it shows that Angelus is on another level of bad even from them.

Or... another remove from the human.

I always think at this point "vengeance is really stupid" though I do like the way he explains it.

It doesn't seem useful, but I like the way Enyos has the strength of his convictions.

JW talks in the commentary about how the concept of vengeance being a living thing, like an irrational god that they serve, really made him able to make sense of all the things that needed to tie together

I like that as an explanation. I like the way the gypsies have their own dark ethos - not a good one, but they're as much trapped by as by anything else.

fit the second

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Nice line from Angel: "To kill this girl... you have to love her."

Angel: Let me work on her. I guarantee by the time you go public, she won't be anything resembling a threat.

Seeing those bits after seeing the rest of it and what's coming up make me wonder how well Angelus (and by extension Angel since Angelus knows what Angel knew) really understands Buffy. He definitely underestimates her, and the bloody message was a pure mistake on his part because it makes clearer that he is not who he was and that makes it easier for Buffy, not harder. The pressure he puts on just makes her get cold and contained about it rather than fall apart.

(Though the bit before that where Buffy sobs her heart out on her bed always gets me.)

Buffy attacks Jenny. I love it

That is a great moment. It's also the second dream Buffy has with Jenny in it - the one she had in the library had Jenny walking around the factory, so even then Buffy was having a premonition that Jenny was more involved. She just didn't realise that was what it meant.

And Oz has a lovely romantic side to him

Doesn't he? I melt at that bit.

I like it that Giles is allied with Buffy in telling Jenny to get out

Yes. Giles gets loyalty. And I think he is also angry at what Jenny was hiding.

So there's a shootout at the mall

Buffy lifting the rocket launcher up to aim and turning it on is one of my favourite moments. I mean, rocket launcher! Cool!

Best of all, Buffy doesn't kill Angel.

But she does kick him very hard where it hurts, causing me to punch the air. It's a pretty good fight as well.

All you will get from me is, is my support. And my respect.

That bit makes me go all misty-eyed. Giles rocks.

Buffy: I got older.

So does that line. And the song that is playing kills me.

Re: fit the second

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He definitely underestimates her,

Thinks she's weaker than she is, you mean?

and the bloody message was a pure mistake on his part because it makes clearer that he is not who he was and that makes it easier for Buffy, not harder

I think also it makes it easier for her to hate him, or be angry, and to think of evil-Angel as being something other than the person she loved.

(Though the bit before that where Buffy sobs her heart out on her bed always gets me.)

yes.

Giles gets loyalty. And I think he is also angry at what Jenny was hiding.

And so he should be. They trusted her with Angel's secrets and she turned out to be his enemy.

But she does kick him very hard where it hurts, causing me to punch the air.

Hee. I never thought I'd be an Angel-fan, but I still like him enough not to want Buffy to hurt him.

So does that line.

Yes. It's wonderful.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I remember reading an interview with James Marsters soon after the second season of Buffy concluded. He was not yet sure that his character would end up dust in the next script they sent him, and he said some cute things about wanting to hang on as long as possible.

6. Spike and Drusilla have the best conversations. He never gets impatient with her. Soul of a poet, he has.

14. Well, yes, Cordelia, he will very soon offer to die for you. And he looked totally terrified the entire time, but he did it anyway. I loved that nobility.

18. The Gypsies have a different way of looking at things, yes....

26. When Buffy walked into Jenny's classroom and threw her on the desk, I knew that Buffy was someone else now. She goes through other such changes as the series continues, some of them intrinsic to a plot and others just basic to the character. I love all of them. And I loved this one. Because Jenny was talking to her as an equal, not as teacher-student. Clearly, Jenny fully realized that Buffy and she were both part of something older and more complex than ordinary people in everyday life were.

35. Yeah. Buffy doesn't kill Angel. But she does something to make herself feel a whole lot better, eh? And he sure didn't see it coming!

36, 37. These were such great dialogues. Both the main adults in Buffy's life came through for her, I felt.

38. Well... Joyce is doing her best!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

he said some cute things about wanting to hang on as long as possible.

I'm glad he did! I wonder if he has similar thoughts now about his role as Captain John Hart.

He never gets impatient with her.

He does - but he always apologizes. He's very sweet with her. Even when he's angry with her, he cares.