Buffy (2x14) Innocence....

[fajrdrako]

Shouldn't the title be "Loss of Innocence"?

The episode starts with Spike. This bodes well: I like an episode that starts with Spike.

And then it carries on with Angel...

1. Angel says, "The pain is gone...I feel just fine." Given what we know of his situation, this is terrifying. What will Angel be, without his pain?
   
   
2. Buffy calls Willow "a fun machine". Heh.
   
   
3. Xander says, "a four-hundred-pound wino offered to wash my hair." What?
   
   
4. I like Willow's way with words: "My God, you people are all... Well, I'm upset, and I can't think of a mean word right now, but that's what you are."
   
   
5. I like the way Buffy is so worried about Angel. No, not just worried: frightened. Good instincts.
   
   
6. Wonderful dialogue between Spike and Drusilla:

   Spike: Are we feeling better, then?
   Drusilla: I'm naming all the stars.
   Spike: You can't see the stars, love. That's the ceiling. Also, it's day.
   Drusilla: I can see them. But I've named them all the same name. And there's terrible confusion.

   
   
7. The Angel walks in. And they don't know what to make of it; but his dialogue is so in keeping with theirs, in a way it couldn't and wouldn't have been a day earlier. Now he has a sense of humour, too - as dark as theirs.
   
   
8. And then the Judge's fateful pronouncemnet: "There's no humanity in him." Handy that they had a humanity-meter on the premises to check this out, give Angel a clean bill of non-humanity. But - though I joke - it's a strong moment.
   
   
9. And Angel's wonderful synopsis: "I was going through a phase."
   
   
10. Love the interaction when Spike says, "It made me sick to my stomach seeing you being the Slayer's lap dog." And then Angel snarls and kisses him.
    
    
11. Another great Angel line about Buffy: "She made me feel like a human being. That's not the kind of thing you just forgive."
    
    
12. Love the phone call between Buffy and Willow. We hear Willow's side of it: "Okay. No, no, he didn't, but I'm sure he'll... Well, Buffy, he probably has some plan, and he's trying to protect you. Well, I-I don't know what. I'm not in on the plan. It's his plan. No. Don't even say that! Angel is not dead." But he is. I suspect that Buffy suspects that already. Willow is trying to be optimistic, but she's baffled as to what happened.
    
    
13. Another line I love - Willow to Xander about Buffy - "She's checked every place she can think of. She even beat up Willy the snitch a couple of times." I love this because I love Willy the Snitch.
    
    
14. Cordelia says to Xander, "You were too busy rushing off to die for your beloved Buffy. You'd never die for me." Is this maybe revealing her motives - that she's afraid to care about Xander because she knows he loves Buffy, and she feels she can't compete?
    
    
15. Then they kiss and Willows sees them and freaks.
    
    
16. Willow's dialogue is just superb in this episode. "I knew it! I knew it! Well, not 'knew it' in the sense of having the slightest idea, but I knew there was something I didn't know."
    
    
17. So Buffy finds and confronts Angel at his place and he's verbally mean to her. The best part"

    Buffy: Angel! I love you.
    Angel: Love you, too.

    Beautifully delivered, by both of them. Chilling!
    
    
18. Those Gypsies turn out to be even more cruel than it seemed. Enyos says, "To the modern man vengeance is a verb, an idea. Payback. One thing for another. Like commerce. Not with us. Vengeance is a living thing. It passes through generations. It commands. It kills." No sense of justice here - just a desire to make Angel pay. He says it later on: "It is not justice we serve. It is vengeance." Jenny figures out that this means "Angelus is back." (Why did I instantly think, "Lymond is back?" when I typed that? Don't answer that.)
    
    
19. Enyos says, "I hoped to stop it." Stop what? Oh - Buffy and Angel getting together, Angel being happy, Angel therefore reverting to Angelus. Right. He does on, "But I realize now it was arranged to be so." Arranged? By who? Is Enyos a fatalist? Or is he blaming someone?
    
    
20. Love this bit:

    Jenny: Buffy loves him.
    Enyos: And now she will have to kill him.

    
    
    
21. I like Willow's speech to Xander: "Let's get this straight. I don't understand it, I don't wanna understand it, you have gross emotional problems, and things are not okay between us. But what's happening right now is more important than that." I like her sense of pragmatism here. At the same time, I'm not very sympathetic with her judgement on Xander's life: she knows he doesn't love her, and she has no hold over him - even as a friend, or especially as a friend - to dictate how he should conduct his love life. She doesn't like Cordelia, but she hasn't much of a right to be upset if he actually does - people change their minds. It isn't as if she fears he's using and abusing Cordelia. It's that she's angry with Xander for not wanting her. Which isn't fair in the least - he doesn't owe her an explanation or anything else. Especially given her romantic friendship with Oz.
    
    This being said, I still love Willow.
    
    
22. Good Xander speech: "Whoa. Whoa! I... I think I'm having a thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a thought. Now I'm having a plan." I like the way we go through the process of Xander's plan without knowing anything about it - and that Cordelia doesn't know either, but plays her part beautifully. Lucky for Xander the soldier on duty was an idiot.
    
    
23. Good Buffy/Angel exchange:

    Buffy: Angel, there must be some part of you inside that still remembers who you are. Angel: Dream on, schoolgirl.

    
    
24. Wonderful Giles line:

    Cordelia: What are we gonna do?
    Giles: I'm leaning towards blind panic myself.

    
    
25. Nice line from Angel: "To kill this girl... you have to love her." I suppose I ought to be calling him "Angelus" but I like calling him "Angel."
    
    
26. Buffy attacks Jenny. I love it. And of course by now we know Enyos is doomed. Assuming we didn't figure he was doomed as soon as we first saw him.
    
    
27. My favourite line in all of this is Buffy's: "Curse him again." But of course it doesn't work that way.
    
    
28. And if it did work that way, she would be cursed to love him forever but never able to touch him, in case she might accidentally make him happy and set everything off again...
    
    
29. And Oz has a lovely romantic side to him: "Sometimes when I'm sitting in class... You know, I'm not thinking about class, 'cause that would never happen. I think about kissing you. And it's like everything stops. It's like, it's like freeze frame. Willow kissage." And even better: "in my fantasy, when I'm kissing *you*, you're kissing *me*."
    
    
30. And then another one of those great moments:

    Buffy: He's only making it easier. I know what I have to do.
    Giles: What?
    Buffy: Kill him.

    
    
31. I like Angel's flirty attitude, especially when he calls the Judge "spiffy".
    
    
32. I like it that Giles is allied with Buffy in telling Jenny to get out. And that she does.
    
    
33. So there's a shootout at the mall. How... suburban. Or something. I prefer the more gothic locales.
    
    
34. There's something absurdly hilarious about everyone picking up pieces of exploded demon.
    
    
35. Best of all, Buffy doesn't kill Angel.
    
    
36. And predictably, maybe by favourite bit of all - well, after Buffy's resolve to kill Angel - is her conversation with Giles:

    Buffy: You must be so disappointed in me.
    Giles: No. No, no, I'm not.
    Buffy: But this is all my fault.
    Giles: No. I don't believe it is. Do you want me to wag my finger at you and tell you that you acted rashly? You did. A-and I can. I know that you loved him. And... he... has proven more than once that he loved you. You couldn't have known what would happen. The coming months are going to, are going to be hard... I suspect on all of us, but... if it's guilt you're looking for, Buffy, I'm, I'm not your man. All you will get from me is, is my support. And my respect.

    I think the relationship between Giles and Buffy is my favourite of the whole show.
    
    
37. Conversation with Joyce:

    Joyce: But we're still going shopping on Saturday. So what'd you do for your birthday? Did you have fun?
    Buffy: I got older.

    Joyce must realize Buffy is upset - does she think it's just teen troubles?
    

Comments

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

in a way, she hasn't lost enough innocence
*nods.

More fun???
So it seems!

I don't like either Angel or Angelus. But he does produce lovely reactions from Spike.
Thing is, what he loses isn't humanity, it's the guilt. The individuality and emotional level we see with Spike and Dru and in others.

Spoiler-fodder. I rescind the question.
Duely rescinded. Not that I was going to answer anyway.


As I currently interpret it: Willow knew Xander didn't love her, but she put a lot of stoke in her role as his best friend and confidante - and then she finds out he's been making out with Cordelia while pretending to hate her, and Willow feels betrayed

There's the betrayal of trust and there's the Cordelia thing. It's pointed at various spots from the very beginning that Cordy personally made life miserable for Willow and Xander since they were young. They jointly hate her for a reason. For him to turn around and be intimate and loving with her in particular, especially hiding it from Willow instead of discussing the change - that's a double betrayal.

Hee - good point! Good training for Xander.
I think you got the copy-pasting wrong. Did you mean to say this about the soldier training?

Uh-huh. Time to put 2 and 2 together. Or 1 and 1 in this case.
He's so busy thinking of her either in terms of the supernatural or in terms of a young school kid.

He's so good at not assigning guilt anywhere but on himself.

I've known people like that. And the opposite, which is annoying.

Yeah. That's childish. But the eternal guild is annoying too. And it so easily obscure everything.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

he does produce lovely reactions from Spike.

Yes. I love that.

what he loses isn't humanity, it's the guilt.

Thank you for saying that, because I was trying to articulate it, and that's it exactly. Which is why I like thinking of them with the same people - it's Angel with or without a conscience.

For him to turn around and be intimate and loving with her in particular, especially hiding it from Willow instead of discussing the change - that's a double betrayal.

Yes, and it's something Willow felt certain about - her past. She maybe didn't have the relationship with Xander that she wanted, but it was a primary friendship.

Did you mean to say this about the soldier training?

Yes. Hate it when copy-paste doesn't work.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

what he loses isn't humanity, it's the guilt.

Thank you for saying that, because I was trying to articulate it, and that's it exactly. Which is why I like thinking of them with the same people - it's Angel with or without a conscience.

There's a very appropriate quote, but it's mid-S3 and spoilery on a number of levels so I won't say it.
People tend to distinguish reference to the demonic as Angelus and to the ensouled variety as Angel. On some levels, it's convenient. On others, it helps people forget that Angel isn't a human fluffy puppy. He just feels the guilt and as such, chooses to limit his activities. I think Angelus has the same attachment to Buffy that Angel feels, he just reacts to it differently.
There's whole fandom discussions about Angel vs. Angelus, and also, while we're on naming and it significance, about Giles vs. Ripper - which to my mind also revolve on the issue of guilt, responsibility, control and consequences, but don't indicate any divergence of self, like some people seem to imply.

Yes, and it's something Willow felt certain about - her past. She maybe didn't have the relationship with Xander that she wanted, but it was a primary friendship.
Let's leave that discussion for later.

Did you mean to say this about the soldier training?

Yes. Hate it when copy-paste doesn't work.
Yes, and we tend to skip editing in comments. Anyway, credit to Ethan and Chaos is important and tends to be forgotten. This would not have been resolved as easily without it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think Angelus has the same attachment to Buffy that Angel feels, he just reacts to it differently.

Yes, that's how I interpret it.

There's whole fandom discussions about Angel vs. Angelus

I've already fallen into several of those, in different venues. I'm surprised how strong my feelings are!

also revolve on the issue of guilt, responsibility, control and consequences, but don't indicate any divergence of self, like some people seem to imply.

Off the cuff, I'd say that the difference between the Angel personality conflict and the Giles personality conflict is in degree of control. Giles has (unless there are big things I don't know) control of both sides of his persona and reacts as he chooses - as we see. Angel is and has been under the influence of his vampiric nature, the gypsy curse, and so on - circumstances where he has very little control of which parts of his nature are ascendant.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

I've already fallen into several of those, in different venues. I'm surprised how strong my feelings are!

Knowing so little of canon must be a disadvantage in such a discussion.

Off the cuff, I'd say that the difference between the Angel personality conflict and the Giles personality conflict is in degree of control.

Oh, I meant the differences between the two (use of the names and whatever significance they have in ascribing character): Angel vs. Angelus and Giles vs. Ripper.

In the Giles vs. Angel contest, there's no doubt Giles normally has more control of the various sides of his character. He doesn't normally play host to a demon, or to an artificially induced 'soul'.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Knowing so little of canon must be a disadvantage in such a discussion.


It is, but only to a point. I only know canon to my present state of watching - which is all anyone had when they were watching the show initially. So I am well aware that many people here are arguing in terms of interpretation from evidence yet to come. I'm happy with this, and just as happy to go with my current misassumptions and interpretations. In the long run I will know all - and no doubt still interpret according to my druthers.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm all for keeping one's own counsel. :)