FIC Torchwood/Doctor Who - "Companionship"

[fajrdrako]

Title: Companionship
Fandom: Torchwood/Doctor Who
Characters: Jack, Sarah Jane Smith
Challenge: Way back in May I accepted a challenge from neadods to write a 'first kiss' scene between Captain Jack Harkness and Sarah Jane Smith. I did not forget. I was not even slow to start working on it, as I loved the idea. But I wrote one scenario after another and discarded them as inadequate or unconvincing. It proved to be extraordinarily difficult. Here at last is a version I like enough to post.
Rating: G
Disclaimer: Not mine, no claims, all property of the BBC.
Notes: Spoilers for Doctor Who episode "The Last of the Time Lords", with a fleeting reference to "School Reunion". Cross-posted to galactic_conman and dwfiction.


Companionship

From the very beginning, Sarah Jane Smith did not trust Captain Jack Harkness. He'd come sailing out of nowhere, appearing on her doorstep with a smile full of promises and a mouth full of lies.

Clearly he knew some things about the Doctor. He'd met Rose, yes, that she could believe. He'd been on the TARDIS, obviously; his information was too good to have been acquired any other way. Beyond that, she believed nothing. There were too many things he didn't say, or couldn't, or wouldn't. He'd met the Doctor - that didn't necessarily make him any kind of a friend of the Doctor, least of all a friend of hers.

She did some research on him, and came up with an inescapable fact: there were no records of any American named Captain Jack Harkness being in the UK since 1941. He was false as a Titanian brisket, this Captain, and she intended to keep her eye on him.

His organization, Torchwood, was even worse. It seemed everyone with any actual power knew about Torchwood, but no one knew the important details. The whole institution looked like a powder keg. She had a good talk with UNIT; they were suspicious of Torchwood, too. "Weaponry no one should have," they said, and "too much power, too little accountability". It seems Queen Victoria set up Torchwood under suspicious circumstances, to guard the world against alien threats in general and the Doctor in particular.

This was an expose waiting to be written, even if it was another article that should never see the light of day. Since Torchwood under Harkness seemed to pose no immediate threat, and the rest had disappeared with the Battle of Canary Wharf, she let it go for the sake of more immediate matters. When Captain Jack again turned up on her doorstep, she told him to go away and not come back.

One day, more than a year after the Battle of Canary Wharf, he broke the silence. She received a telephone call from Captain Jack Harkness.

"I've seen him," he said, without preamble. "I have news. Do you want to hear?"

There was only one person he could be talking about. She shouldn't listen. It might be a lie. But she'd had no word for so very long, not since the Krillitanes had invaded that school. She said, "Very well. Come to my place."

"On my way," he said, and disconnected. It was probably literally true: he no doubt rang her from his car. She put the kettle on for tea, and tried not to pace in anticipation. Luke was off somewhere with Maria, and she was glad - she wasn't sure how to explain Captain Jack to Luke. She wouldn't lie about him, of course, she didn't lie to Luke. But she didn't much want to talk about the mysterious Captain, either.

When Jack tapped on her door twenty minutes later, Sarah Jane had already finished half of her own cup of tea. His smile was as she remembered. She ignored it. "Come in," she said. "Care for some tea?" She hoped she managed to sound sufficiently casual. Friendly but not gullible. Businesslike.

"I'd rather a glass of water," he said, and she got it for him. They sat in her living room, with Jack in the large, comfortable chair, while she sat on the sofa. He said, "The TARDIS came to Cardiff to refuel. I hitched a ride. On the outside."

As he continued, she saw how absurd it was, like all his stories. A severed hand, as some sort of Doctor alert? Riding the time vortex hanging onto the outside the of TARDIS - what was he, Spider-Man? Going to the end of time? Searching for Utopia? Well, that all sounded like the Doctor, right enough, he was always into wild extremes, and seemed to be more so inclined as time went on. Not that time ever just 'went on' for the Doctor.

Captain Jack's story got more and more outrageous. Meeting another Time Lord at the end of time, one who'd lost his memory, who turned out to be a friend of the Doctor, but insane and power-hungry. Harold Saxon and Archangel. Toclafanes and warfare. A year that never was, of imprisonment, enslavement and resistance. Martha Jones, saviour of mankind. Deceptions, tricks of the mind, and psychic magic.

Sarah Jane listened to him without interruption. "Quite a story," she said, mildly, when he stopped.

"Yes."

"If I didn't know him, I wouldn't believe any of it."

"But you know him."

"I was looking into the disappearance of Harold Saxon."

"Oh?"

"And the way he popped up a couple of years ago. He was almost as mysterious as you."

Jack smiled at that. "No one is as mysterious as me."

"...But your ego is bigger."

"Not just my ego," he murmured, but she pretended not to have heard him.

She tried to picture the scene he described. The gunshot, the woman in red. The Doctor in tears. "He loved him?"

"The Master was the only other living Time Lord. The Doctor wanted to save him. It was his last chance... He couldn't save the others, back in the Time War. He thought he could maybe save this one. Just this one."

"Chivalrous nonsense," she snapped, and found herself on the verge of tears herself.

"Not nonsense. It's what he is. It's why we love him."

She looked at him quizzically. "We?"

"You. Me. Rose. Martha, too. How could we not?"

Jack was a con man, an actor. She knew that. But looking at him now, she believed that he knew the Doctor, believed that he loved him, that the Doctor had touched him in the same way he had her, and triggered a soul-deep change. Some people, after meeting the Doctor, would never be the same again.

Jack reached over and took her hand, squeezing it.

"How could we not?" she echoed. "I wish... How he must be hurting. I wish we could help."

"He'll find us if he needs us," said Jack. He kissed her hand, comforting her. Then he kissed it again.

She looked at him suspiciously, though didn't pull her hand away. "Jack Harkness. Are you coming on to me?"

He did not let go of her hand, which he had lifted to his lips. She could feel his warm breath against her knuckles as he held it there. Without moving his lips away from her skin, he lifted an eyebrow and said quizzically, as if it were another question rather than an answer, "Yes?"

She pulled her hand away quickly, and tried not to wish she hadn't. "Idiot man. I'm too old for flirtation."

He laughed - not at her, but in a warm sort of way that made even the air around him feel good. "Sarah Jane Smith, how old are you? Fifty at most? I have a century on you, and I'm not too old for flirtation. We both know someone pushing a thousand. Doesn't he make you feel young?"

"I miss him," she said bluntly. She felt like crying again. She was the idiot, a weepy old fool. She was usually more careful than this. But Jack's news about the Doctor had unsettled her, and Jack himself.... She realized how badly she had misjudged him before, and was furious with herself for it. He had needed her friendship, and she had coldly withheld it. Had she turned into such a suspicious old curmudgeon that she didn't know a friend when she met one?

"I miss him, too," said Jack gently. "Every day. Always. But it makes life worth living, you know? He's out there, doing his thing. And one day he'll return." He stood. So did she. He pulled her into his arms as if it was the most natural thing in the world, and Sarah Jane let herself accept it. He was a link to the Doctor. A link to her past and the planet's future, even if he and she hadn't shared that time together. A link to a world out there of planets and aliens and adventures and dangers and doing things that must be done.

He had a very comforting hug.

She said, "What's this about you being more than a hundred years old?"

"A hundred and fifty. But looking good, don't you think?"

"Are you human?"

"Completely."

"Then how...?"

He kissed her, lightly, on the lips. "It's a long story. It involves the fifty-first century, and the Time Agency... or maybe the year 200,100 and a Game Station... or maybe a girl hanging from a barrage balloon in the Blitz. Tell you what. Let's order Chinese and I'll tell you the story of Captain Jack Harkness and how he became immortal."

"Immortal?"

"And hungry! Have a heart. I drove all the way from Cardiff and I haven't had any lunch."

"There's a really good Chinese place just around the corner. I'll call them - Luke loves it."

"Luke?"

"I can tell you a story or two as well, Captain. Did you know I'm a mother now?"

He sat, laughing. "You're full of surprises."

"It comes with the territory. Egg rolls, do you think?"

"Definitely egg rolls," agreed Jack.

- end -

Comments

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I just have to tell you how happy I am to read that someone feels the same way! Usually everyone is singing the praises of Ten and I just cringe over some of the things he's done to Jack!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I loved Ten almost as much as Jack did up until "The Last of the Time Lords". Then I was indignant. The difference between Nine's interaction with Jack (especially in "The Parting of the Ways") and Ten's is startling. Nine mentoring Jack seemed the way it should be. Ten mentoring Jack - and scolding him - looked officious and unfair, especially when Jack was in the right and the Doctor jumping to the wrong conclusions, as in the matter of Torchwood. Or with the Doctor thinking Jack was 'wrong' and to be avoided (regardless of circumstances), and then not even questioning ore recognizing his prejudice in the matter. That looks perilously close to 'unkind' or 'stupid'.

I would have forgiven all if there had been a kind word, or a hug, or a 'thank you' at the end. Instead the Doctor dismantles the Vortex Manipulator and we get the Face of Boe joke. Erck. I'm still looking for resolution there.

And here I'd foolishly thought Russell T. Davies liked the Jack/Ten relationship as much as I did.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Nine and Jack seemed almost like colleagues, working on the TARDIS together, joshing and joking about. Jack knew what Nine was planning for the Daleks and that it pretty much meant his death and he didn't care. Then Ten runs and abandons Jack without so much of a 'by your leave' and doesn't even apologize when given the opportunity ("Did I? Busy life, moved on")

It just... errrr... no words can begin to explain how much Ten annoyed my by the way he treated Jack in S3. The man died for you, over and over, have some respect!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

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<i.Nine and Jack seemed almost like colleagues, working on the TARDIS together</i>

I loved the way Jack seemed to just effortlessly fall into the role of First Mate of the TARDIS, doing what needed to be done, and loving the vessel as much as the Doctor.

<i>Jack knew what Nine was planning for the Daleks and that it pretty much meant his death and he didn't care.</i>

It was an honourable death, done for the sake of - among other things - someone he loved. It lived up to all that Jack admired. And that the Doctor know he would do it, asked him to do it, and expected him to do it was a good thing - it showed that he had total faith in Jack's character and love. I had no problem with any of that. I loved it.

But with Ten... take away the affection, and it looks like abuse.

<i>doesn't even apologize when given the opportunity ("Did I? Busy life, moved on")</i>

And it isn't as if he doesn't have plenty of opportunity later. The callousness is staggering.

<i>The man died for you, over and over, have some respect!</i>

And appreciation. And understanding. Ten treats Jack as if he's a disposable tool.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

But with Ten... take away the affection, and it looks like abuse.

Exactly!!! There is no respect, no acknowledgement, just (like you said) callousness.

Ten treats Jack as if he's a disposable tool.

Yep, like he knows Jack can't die so he can just throw him to the wolves as often as possible

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

like he knows Jack can't die so he can just throw him to the wolves as often as possible

With no particular concern for the consequences. The Master might have killed Jack. From the Doctor's point of view, would that have changed anything?

His treatment of Martha isn't much better.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

His treatment of Martha was terrible. One level above contempt. *sigh*

It was interesting to see Jack and Martha's interactions, all 30 seconds of them

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It was interesting to see Jack and Martha's interactions, all 30 seconds of them

They were delightful together. I hope they are equally good when we see them together in Torchwood.

And yes, Martha deserved better too. But at least she was thanked.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Scifi channel here in the US cut nearly all of Jack and Martha's scenes together from "SOTTD" it was terrible.

I really can't see what Martha would want to go back with the Doctor, not the way he treated her, but oh well.

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

Love the story and I'd love to see more Sarah Jane and Jack (she needs and deserves a fun, flirty Jack in her life *grin*). I'm glad you kept working on the concept until you got a story you like. It works for me, Sarah Jane being very suspicious of Jack and holding him at arm's length, and then becoming much more warm towards him by the end.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in to agree with you (mostly) both. I freaking hate the FoB "revelation", the Doctor's high-handedness (makes me really, really wish I hadn't seen that footage on youtube.com back in Feb./March, because I totally read it wrong... I thought the Doctor was giving Jack a way to keep in touch, not breaking the Vortex Manipulator, taking away the time travel and teleportation capabilities again), his lack of concern and compassion for Jack (Jack's deaths in front of the Doctor, and no reaction, didn't try to make Jack's coming back to life more comfortable), and yes, his lack of faith in Jack, which I think Jack more than earned (trust and faith on the Doctor's part) when Jack literally died for the Doctor.

RTD has killed my love for Doctor Who, with that one episode (which I prefer to refer to as The Episode That Never Was). I really don't care if I see the Christmas special this year, or next year's episodes (although I probably will, because I want to see Felicity Kendal in an episode). I won't be watching them as soon as I can, after watching them.

I really wonder if RTD likes/enjoys writing Jack, the way Jack was sidelined in the finale, and the way the Doctor treats him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if RTD just wanted Jack to be Muscle Man in the 1st series finale, and didn't care about ever using the character again, after that, and just used Jack to get his show, Torchwood on the air, that the BBC would be interested in having it with a popular character. Maybe the Beeb weren't/wouldn't have been, without Jack?

I'm so ticked off with the Doctor currently that I wouldn't have completely forgiven him if he'd treated Jack decently, but I would have been more happy with him and I'd be looking forward more than I am (ie., not at all, right now) to see more DW. I think that the show has done a real disservice to all of the companions since it came back - Rose became incredibly dislikeable with 10, with their little clique attitude and I was really glad to get rid of her; Martha was made to feel like she couldn't possibly live up to the awesomeness of Rose (and oh lord did I ever get tired of all the Rose references in the 3rd series!); Jack, the horrible way 10 treated him; Mickey, how Rose and 10 treated him, and even Adam, the explanation was cut from the episode, why he needed and wanted the information from the future.

Damn, I should stop venting about that episode.

reply part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

she needs and deserves a fun, flirty Jack in her life *grin*

It can only be a good thing.

It works for me, Sarah Jane being very suspicious of Jack and holding him at arm's length, and then becoming much more warm towards him by the end.

I like the pattern because it's the same thing that happened beween Jack and the Doctor. The Doctor saw right through Jack's lies, didn't trust him an inch, and didn't let him get away with the deceptions. Jack then proved himself to be worthy of friendship and love, and capable of heroism. I was trying to echo that change in attitude. (Not consciously; this is something I see now that it's finished.)

Rose, of course, doesn't mind a handsome, flirty rogue, even if she knows he's a liar, and especially if he's saved her life. So their relationship had an entirely different pattern.

he Doctor's high-handedness (makes me really, really wish I hadn't seen that footage on youtube.com back in Feb./March, because I totally read it wrong... I thought the Doctor was giving Jack a way to keep in touch

Me too. I was seeing what I expect to see, and what I wanted to see. Aaargh!

his lack of concern and compassion for Jack (Jack's deaths in front of the Doctor, and no reaction, didn't try to make Jack's coming back to life more comfortable

Martha showed overt concern, but the Doctor was entirely focussed on the Master.

his lack of faith in Jack, which I think Jack more than earned (trust and faith on the Doctor's part) when Jack literally died for the Doctor.

Agreed.

which I prefer to refer to as The Episode That Never Was

Oh - perfect!

I really don't care if I see the Christmas special this year, or next year's episodes (although I probably will, because I want to see Felicity Kendal in an episode).

There was a time after "The Last of the Time Lords" first aired that I almost decided to stop watching. But I don't like to judge anything in advance, and though my feelings for Ten aren't now what they were, there is enough that I love about the show to go on watching. Including the possibility of a resolution of the rift between the Doctor and Jack - a change of heart on the Doctor's part. My initial reaction was to feel more let down by RTD than by the Doctor: to wail, "I thought you were on our side!" when it seems clear now that RTD was not.

But I can't deny that my attitude to Ten has changed a lot. (I carefully don't say "The Doctor" because this does not affect my view of Nine.)

Who is Felicity Kendall?

Re: reply part 1

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

Heh, a fun, flirty Jack in anyone's life could only be a good thing!

The pattern being the same for Sarah Jane as it was for the Doctor reinforces my belief that she's supposed to be Doctor Mark III (Jack is Mark II), what with her sonic lipstick. Jack immediately inherits the tenth Doctor's lack of compassion and his shoutyness, in TW, thus he's Mark II. I can't imagine Jack in TW reacting the way he did in "Utopia" towards the news of Chantho's dead conglomeration... in TW, I think he'd've had the same reaction as the Doctor, ('I knew it! Didn't I say conglomeration?' as opposed to 'You're supposed to say you're sorry, Doctor'). Sarah Jane and Jack should be themselves, not imitations of the Doctor.

Me too. I was seeing what I expect to see, and what I wanted to see. Aaargh!

Me too. *sigh* Me too. :~( My rant about The Episode That Never Was is still the top entry at my lj, if you want to read it/comment.

Martha showed overt concern, but the Doctor was entirely focussed on the Master.

I was thinking of "Utopia" -- I can fanwank the Doctor's coldness when he sees Jack, dead on the ground (feeling the prejudice), but when Jack does the power boost and the electricity courses through him and he dies? And Martha starts CPR and the Doctor stops her, gets her to stand beside himself instead of with Jack? That really pissed me off. The Master hadn't even been revealed yet, the Doctor has decided he has just the man for Yana's radiation room problem... and doesn't do a damn thing to make Jack's coming back to life any more comfortable. Bastard.

I'm glad you like how I refer to the so-called finale. :)

I actually had decided to stop watching after the finale, but a friend is going to keep watching, to see if it gets any better, and then I saw there'd be an actor or two I wanted to see.

Felicity K. is an English actor who I've seen in a few Britcoms (The Mistress, Solo very famous for The Good Life aka Good Neighbours, and recently was in a mystery show called Rosemary and Thyme.

The other reason I'm going to tune in is to see if Donna resists the Doctor's spell somehow, (doesn't fall in love with him) and smacks his ego down to size, only slightly bigger than himself, instead of the size of the universe. I'd be happy if she gives him lots of smackdowns and he becomes more likeable.

I still like 9, but yes, 10 is approaching incredibly unlikeable, which is a shame. It took me two times through all the Tom Baker episodes, before I finally started liking his Doctor (and he was my first! Cripes, has it really been almost 26 years since I started watching?!? Eep!). I don't see me wanting to rewatch most of DT's episodes, because Ten and Rose annoyed me, and hello? Martha enduring sexism and racism for a month or two (or however long it was) in "Human Nature"/"Family of Blood", getting a job and supporting herself and Ten in "Blink" weren't enough to prove she's a worthy Companion? Pshaw! and Pfffffffttt! Apparently, even dying for the Doctor isn't enough (see Jack).

Re: reply part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The pattern being the same for Sarah Jane as it was for the Doctor reinforces my belief that she's supposed to be Doctor Mark III (Jack is Mark II), what with her sonic lipstick.

I would agree with that.

I can't imagine Jack in TW reacting the way he did in "Utopia" towards the news of Chantho's dead conglomeration...

I can, fairly easily. In TW Jack vacillates between depression and detatchment, and engagement and caring. It would depend which mode he was in. Or which mood.

Sarah Jane and Jack should be themselves, not imitations of the Doctor.

I agree, but I like the way Jack recreates himself and grows by emulating those he admires and loves. He did it with Captain Jack Harkness, stealing his name and identity and the clothing of his time, and then trying to be that kind of hero. (This before he had even met him and loved him.) He makes the Doctor his hero, and then recreates his life - particularly his goals and his morality, or the Doctor's morality as Jack sees it - in the image of the Doctor. Which is great, as long as it's morality I like, which on Jack's part, it has been. I like that.

And I don't want or expect Jack or the Doctor to be perfect. But I also don't want them to act in ways I find annoying, distressing, unlikeable or disgusting. They are, or ought to be, heroes.

I can fanwank the Doctor's coldness when he sees Jack, dead on the ground (feeling the prejudice), but when Jack does the power boost and the electricity courses through him and he dies? And Martha starts CPR and the Doctor stops her, gets her to stand beside himself instead of with Jack? That really pissed me off.

Yes. He seems to be deliberately unkind throughout that whole sequence. I didn't mind the first time I saw it; I was intrigued; wondering why he was so cold and unfeeling towards Jack, and enjoying the edged banter.

So we learn that it was prejudice - okay, I could accept that, and take his attitude as defensiveness: he's being cruel because he is fighting an impulse to be kind, becuase he has mixed and conflicted feelings. I like mixed and conflicted feelings - if they are resolved in a way I like. So I hoped and expected the Doctor would simply remember how he once loved Jack, and see Jack's accomplishments, and with a big hug and a smile rapport would and should be re-established.

Only it didn't happen that way.

And I could forgive it more if he'd shown love/affection for Martha, and I'm one of those fans who thinks he was leading her on and then pushing her away fairly constantly.

Jack seems to be able to forgive the Doctor anything, but I find it a little more difficult.

Thanks for explaining about Felicity Kendall. I haven't seen any of those shows. Will keep an eye open for her in future.

I don't care if the Doctor gets smacked down - I think I'd rather see him simply change for the better out of his own choice. Or show himself capable of some sort of love and caring and unselfish action.

getting a job and supporting herself and Ten in "Blink"

My thought at the time? "I hope he's sleeping her, because she sure doesn't seem to be getting much in return for her devotion!"

Apparently, even dying for the Doctor isn't enough (see Jack).

It doesn't seem to even earn him brownie points. In "The Parting of the Ways" it seemed right that Jack would put his life on the line because the Doctor was doing the same, and they had the same goal - to fight and stop the Daleks. But somehow the balance changed.

Re: reply part 1

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

While I think of it... how freaking sad (or how would you phrase it, how incredible?) is it that in 40+ years since DW started... Jack shot into my Number One slot, for fave DW character, ever? Major kudos to John Barrowman and 1st series DW to make a five episode character my absolute fave, ever.

Oh, and Adam - apparently, his mother was really sick, cancer or something, so he was looking for a cure for her (I realized just now I'd forgotten to mention how Adam was screwed over, in his two episodes), so it wasn't just money he wanted. I'll have to listen to the commentary for those episodes, though, and to the non-JB commentary but a Jack episode (and then listen to the other commentaries).

I can, fairly easily. In TW Jack vacillates between depression and detatchment, and engagement and caring. It would depend which mode he was in. Or which mood.

S1, I bet he'd be in detachment and depression mode. *sigh*

Jack seems to be able to forgive the Doctor anything, but I find it a little more difficult.

Ditto. Poor Jack, the Doctor is showing himself not to be worthy of Jack's admiration, respect, love. I'd like to see Jack find someone who is (male or female, but someone I like, too... so not Gwen).

Thanks for explaining about Felicity Kendall. I haven't seen any of those shows. Will keep an eye open for her in future.

You're welcome. She's also written an autobiography.

My thought at the time? "I hope he's sleeping her, because she sure doesn't seem to be getting much in return for her devotion!"

Sounds like Jack, doesn't it? And Rose, too, I suppose.

It doesn't seem to even earn him brownie points. In "The Parting of the Ways" it seemed right that Jack would put his life on the line because the Doctor was doing the same, and they had the same goal - to fight and stop the Daleks. But somehow the balance changed.

Yep. *sigh* And in the beginning of "The Empty Child", I can imagine Jack immediately taking off, he wouldn't risk his life.

Re: reply part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

in 40+ years since DW started... Jack shot into my Number One slot, for fave DW character, ever?

It doesn't look odd to me because of course he is my favourite DW character ever, but I only have three series of DW and TW behind me. I don't think my partiality will change by watching the rest, though: the reasons I love Jack so much are specific to him (and me) so while I am sure there are lots of great characters in the series as a whole, Jack will always be remarkable. For many reasons.

Major kudos to John Barrowman

Well, yes. His talents are amazing. It's almost too bad he's so good looking - it's easy to see Jack as superficial because of it, but he isn't. Barrowman makes him incredibly convincing.

his mother was really sick, cancer or something, so he was looking for a cure for her ... so it wasn't just money he wanted.

Really? my goodness, did they mess with that! He ended up looking like a real scumbucket, hanging out with the Doctor for profit motives alone.

Poor Jack, the Doctor is showing himself not to be worthy of Jack's admiration, respect, love.

Yes, and I really don't want to see that. I want the Doctor to be all that Jack thinks he is. I'd rather that the Doctor be redeemed, than for Jack to find someone else. Which I guess just goes to show that I still love the idea of the pairing even if I want to smack the Doctor for the way he has treated Jack. I want the Doctor to be the Doctor I want him to be. We still get glimpses of it, but the bottom line... after "The Last of the Time Lords"... isn't it.

in the beginning of "The Empty Child", I can imagine Jack immediately taking off, he wouldn't risk his life.

Very true.

Re: reply part 1

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

I'm back! Did you miss me? ;) Saw a matinée performance of The Elephant Man, starring Brent Carver, Geraint Wyn Davies and Kate Trotter.

It doesn't look odd to me because of course he is my favourite DW character ever, but I only have three series of DW and TW behind me. I don't think my partiality will change by watching the rest, though: the reasons I love Jack so much are specific to him (and me) so while I am sure there are lots of great characters in the series as a whole, Jack will always be remarkable. For many reasons.

Heh, with so many years of it behind me, no wonder I expected Mickey to be killed off and never seen again in "Rose", and yes, I didn't expect Rose to see her family, home, friends often if at all, but quickly learned differently. Yes, I agree, even if you go back and watch as many as you can, I think Jack'll remain your favourite, simply because there is a lot more emotional depth to the characters in the new version. Jack's certainly the first ever openly sexual (and omnisexual) character on DW.

So, go ahead, list your reasons (or do a post if you prefer) for finding Jack remarkable, I'd like to read it.

Well, yes. His talents are amazing. It's almost too bad he's so good looking - it's easy to see Jack as superficial because of it, but he isn't. Barrowman makes him incredibly convincing.

For me, in DW, yes, for TW, not always, but I think he's terrific in one on one scenes like with John in "Out Of Time" and 1941!Jack in "Captain Jack Harkness". I also thought he was convincing in "Combat" (well, not so much on the cell phone, since Torchwood Three has been seen to be pretty incompetent, but that's down to the lack of credence established in earlier episodes, not a shortcoming of John Barrowman's acting).

Really? my goodness, did they mess with that! He ended up looking like a real scumbucket, hanging out with the Doctor for profit motives alone.

Yeah, I'll really have to listen to the commentary for "Dalek" and "The Long Game" to confirm it with my own ears, and I have Doctor Who Confidential episodes to catch up on. I'm pretty sure one or the other or both will confirm that Adam wasn't just total scum.

I'd like to see Jack come across Adam and have to deal with him. Ooooo... there's another fic idea for you! *grin* *passes plot bunny quickly to fajrdrako*

Yes, and I really don't want to see that. I want the Doctor to be all that Jack thinks he is. I'd rather that the Doctor be redeemed, than for Jack to find someone else. Which I guess just goes to show that I still love the idea of the pairing even if I want to smack the Doctor for the way he has treated Jack. I want the Doctor to be the Doctor I want him to be. We still get glimpses of it, but the bottom line... after "The Last of the Time Lords"... isn't it.

I want the Doctor to be redeemed too, be it of his own accord, or some smackdowns make him start thinking and changing, either way is fine with me. Maybe it'll happen when he becomes Eleven? Twelve? But I don't want to have to wait that long.

reply part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I really wonder if RTD likes/enjoys writing Jack, the way Jack was sidelined in the finale, and the way the Doctor treats him.

It might explain the way Jack was somewhat sidelined in some of the Torchwood episodes. I don't mean "Random Shoes" (though I don't quite understand the need for episodes that exclude the lead role). My interpretation in general has been that RTD is burning out somewhat, and doesn't see it - that he's gone from making outrageously sensationalist stories that are also full of subtle characterization, philosophical depth and carefully orchestrated plotlines, to simply producing stories that are outrageously sensationalist. Period. In other words, he's running out of ideas, and the ideas he has aren't shining as brightly as they did.

In any case, Jack was shafted. I thought RTD just wasn't particularly interested in him here - he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.

So why did Adam need and want the information from the future? Was it not just greed?

Damn, I should stop venting about that episode.

I'm glad you said something here. I'm happy to have people to talk to about this, because I share those concerns, even if I'm managed to get to a more philosphical attitude about it, rather than the sense of shock I felt right after seeing "The Last of the Time Lords". Most fans don't seem to have noticed or cared about these concerns, and it's something I feel the need to discuss in order to come to terms with it.

I find all sorts of ways to reinterpret things that make me feel better, but I can't quite find a way that redeems the Doctor.

In other discussions, we were saying that Nine seemed to draw people to him, while Ten thrusts them away.

One of the strong themes I got from series 1 was that however crusty he may be, the Doctor loves Earth and the people of Earth, both individually (sometimes) and collectively. I'm not so sure that's still true, with Ten. Or that it's still demonstrably true.

Re: reply part 2

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

It might explain the way Jack was somewhat sidelined in some of the Torchwood episodes. I don't mean "Random Shoes" (though I don't quite understand the need for episodes that exclude the lead role). My interpretation in general has been that RTD is burning out somewhat, and doesn't see it - that he's gone from making outrageously sensationalist stories that are also full of subtle characterization, philosophical depth and carefully orchestrated plotlines, to simply producing stories that are outrageously sensationalist. Period. In other words, he's running out of ideas, and the ideas he has aren't shining as brightly as they did.

Heh, or as a friend refers to it, "Random Shit". Doesn't RTD have minimal involvement with TW, and it's more Julie Gardner's and Chris Chibnall's baby? And considering the latter's 1st series episodes, doesn't that thought just horrify you and make you quake in your figurative boots? I remember reading on TWoP the speculation that RTD had rewritten "They Keep Killing Suzie" (although it's credited to two other people) and the awkwardness of the other glove/Jack and Ianto and the stopwatch certainly reminds me of the awkwardness of Jack saying bye/FoB b.s.

I believe crabby_lionness (she's commented on this entry, if I got her name wrong) did a post on her lj, about the screen time of Jack, Gwen, etc., and Gwen got either half an hour or forty-five minutes (maybe an hour) more than Jack... and that's just freaking WRONG! I, personally, tuned in for The Captain Jack Harkness spin-off, not "The Gwen Bloody Cooper and Owen Fucking Harper Show, featuring Captain Jack Harkness Show".

In any case, Jack was shafted. I thought RTD just wasn't particularly interested in him here - he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.

Yep. Not even the Doctor. *sigh* Where were the crackling scenes between the Doctor and the Master? Another thing that bugged me was how the Master has been willing to do anything to stay alive... so where was the attempt to take over Jack's immortal body? So, so, so, so, so many missed opportunities!

I'm glad you said something here. I'm happy to have people to talk to about this, because I share those concerns, even if I'm managed to get to a more philosphical attitude about it, rather than the sense of shock I felt right after seeing "The Last of the Time Lords". Most fans don't seem to have noticed or cared about these concerns, and it's something I feel the need to discuss in order to come to terms with it.

Thank you. :) I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread. *grin*

I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but I ain't rewatching it! I'm getting the DVD to hear the commentary for that ep, and to see the deleted scenes. I'll rewatch "Utopia" probably, and maybe "The Sound of Drums", at least the scenes with Jack.

I find all sorts of ways to reinterpret things that make me feel better, but I can't quite find a way that redeems the Doctor.

I bet that's because RTD is in charge. I hope DT will be around when someone else is in charge of the show, to see if Ten becomes more likeable, more compassionate. That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.

One of the strong themes I got from series 1 was that however crusty he may be, the Doctor loves Earth and the people of Earth, both individually (sometimes) and collectively. I'm not so sure that's still true, with Ten. Or that it's still demonstrably true.

I agree. Poor Harriet Jones. :~(

Re: reply part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

as a friend refers to it, "Random Shit"

Heh. I liked the story well enough, but it didn't hold a candle to "Love and Monsters", and suffered for a lack of Jack. Just think how much more I'd have liked it if Jack had been in Gwen's role there.

Doesn't RTD have minimal involvement with TW, and it's more Julie Gardner's and Chris Chibnall's baby?

Quite possibly. Which is okay. I'm not sure how the duties are distributed but I know RTD has said that he's primarily concerned with DW - TW seems to be of much less interest to him.

And considering the latter's 1st series episodes, doesn't that thought just horrify you and make you quake in your figurative boots?

Not entirely. Unlike most fans, I liked the Chris Chibnall episodes - "Cyberwoman" is one of my favourites. My very favourites were by Catherine Tregana, I wish they'd give her the creative control! Okay, "End of Days" was a total mess, but it had brilliant moments.

I'm hoping that the random nature of the writing in TW series 1 reflects a lack of time and resources, rather than lack of talent, and that TW2 will be tighter and more carefully written. Helen Raynor was probably the writer I liked least.

Gotta run, more on this later...

Re: reply part 2

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

Heh. I liked the story well enough, but it didn't hold a candle to "Love and Monsters", and suffered for a lack of Jack. Just think how much more I'd have liked it if Jack had been in Gwen's role there.

You know, I still haven't watched "Love and Monsters", because of the lack of the Doctor, when I still sort of liked him. *sigh*

Yes, on first viewing, "Random Shoes" was really good, but since I can't stand Gwen, and she's the only one really featured heavily in it... guess which one I haven't really bothered checking out again, except to find the few measly minutes of Jack and rewatched him? If it had featured Jack or Ianto or Tosh, I bet I would have watched it again, just to see someone on the screen instead of Gwen. I'd rather have Jaquetta May write more episodes, instead of Chibnall (bleh!).

Not entirely. Unlike most fans, I liked the Chris Chibnall episodes - "Cyberwoman" is one of my favourites. My very favourites were by Catherine Tregana, I wish they'd give her the creative control! Okay, "End of Days" was a total mess, but it had brilliant moments.

EoD, my fave bit was Jack in the office, and then hearing the sound of the TARDIS, his smile and looking completely different from TW Jack, then disappearing. The others standing there, Gwen certain that Jack's been taken (man, how oblivious can she be? Yo, Gwen, what did Jack just say a few minutes ago? That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything? Where's your proof or any kind of evidence that Jack didn't want to leave? Gah!!!!), and pulling away from the Hub, to the Bay, and back further... it certainly did its job and got me all excited for Jack on DW... and, well, you know my feelings on how that went, by the end!

I'm hoping that the random nature of the writing in TW series 1 reflects a lack of time and resources, rather than lack of talent, and that TW2 will be tighter and more carefully written. Helen Raynor was probably the writer I liked least.

Yeah, we'll see how they do with more time to concentrate on it and less goofs. We'll really see with the first episode... the good, James Marsters is in it... for me, the bad is that Chris Chibnall wrote it.

Hope you had to run, to have some fun!

Re: reply part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I still haven't watched "Love and Monsters", because of the lack of the Doctor, when I still sort of liked him.

His role isn't large, but what there is, is lovely. I like that story. It's helps that I'm a big fan of Jackie Tyler, and she's nicely heroic in this. In a Jackie-like sort of way.

on first viewing, "Random Shoes" was really good, but since I can't stand Gwen, and she's the only one really featured heavily in it...

I love Gwen, but didn't think she was at her best in this one, and she's more interesting when she's interacting with Jack or others on the Torchwood team. Or Rhys, who is totally missing here.

I'd rather have Jaquetta May write more episodes, instead of Chibnall (bleh!).

Many fans would agree with you.

, my fave bit was Jack in the office, and then hearing the sound of the TARDIS, his smile and looking completely different from TW Jack, then disappearing.

That was my favourite bit, too. But there were other bits I liked. And bits I hated. An odd episode.

That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything?

He was running...! But I can see her reasoning.

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<iit [...] well,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<i>I still haven't watched "Love and Monsters", because of the lack of the Doctor, when I still sort of liked him.</i>

His role isn't large, but what there is, is lovely. I like that story. It's helps that I'm a big fan of Jackie Tyler, and she's nicely heroic in this. In a Jackie-like sort of way.

<i>on first viewing, "Random Shoes" was really good, but since I can't stand Gwen, and she's the only one really featured heavily in it...</i>

I love Gwen, but didn't think she was at her best in this one, and she's more interesting when she's interacting with Jack or others on the Torchwood team. Or Rhys, who is totally missing here.

<i>I'd rather have Jaquetta May write more episodes, instead of Chibnall (bleh!).</i>

Many fans would agree with you.

<i>, my fave bit was Jack in the office, and then hearing the sound of the TARDIS, his smile and looking completely different from TW Jack, then disappearing.</i>

That was my favourite bit, too. But there were other bits I liked. And bits I hated. An odd episode.

<i>That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything?</i>

He was running...! But I can see her reasoning.

<iit certainly did its job and got me all excited for Jack on DW... and, well, you know my feelings on how that went, by the end!</i>

I agree exactly. Jack was so happy and excited to see the Doctor again... and then look at the reception he got.

<i>the good, James Marsters is in it... for me, the bad is that Chris Chibnall wrote it.</i>

We shall see! If it's bad, well, the consolation is that he didn't write all of the episodes. If it's good - and I hope it will be - no problem.

Re: reply part 2

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

His role isn't large, but what there is, is lovely. I like that story. It helps that I'm a big fan of Jackie Tyler, and she's nicely heroic in this. In a Jackie-like sort of way.

Yeah, probably does help you, I'm not a huge Jackie fan so that could be another reason I haven't watched it, but I'm glad she's heroice in a Jackie-like way.

I love Gwen,

Hee, my sympathies! ;) Yes, I'm just teasing, I'm glad there are people who can enjoy seeing her on TW. Funny thing is, I thought Eve was great as Gwyneth in "The Unquiet Dead" and I really wish her character had survived. I think Eve's very good at acting, but oh my gosh, I can NOT stand Gwen. I'd be happy(ier) if somehow, Gwen and Gwenyth were switched, and Gwen died in Gwenyth's place, then Gwyneth could work for TW, try to settle into a different century, etc., etc., etc.

but didn't think she was at her best in this one, and she's more interesting when she's interacting with Jack or others on the Torchwood team. Or Rhys, who is totally missing here.

That was another thing that bugged me, Gwen paying the late fee for the DVDs, the thirty pounds that the guy claimed. I would have enjoyed Gwen more, if she'd pointed out he's lucky to be getting them back at all, and left.

We certainly got way too much of Rhys in the next episode! *rolls eyes, and feels sorry for Emma and her ringside seat* (and in the finale).

I'd like to see some of the others getting to interact with Jack, too, like Tosh, Ianto and Owen, not just Gwen.

But then, I love Jack and, hey, any excuse to show him on screen... *grin*

That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything?

He was running...! But I can see her reasoning.

As far as I could see in TW, he wasn't running, but yes, I intend to check the ending on CBC... whenever we get it (and on the DVD). I've read (I think on both the imdb.com board and TWoP) that there's a tiny figure shown to be running when it pans outside the Hub and I'll be looking for that. But the last time we see Jack, his face, it's the sound of the TARDIS, his hair is ruffled by some kind of wind, and he smiles. Gwen comes out of the office and he's gone.

I agree exactly. Jack was so happy and excited to see the Doctor again... and then look at the reception he got.

Yeah, makes me dislike the Doctor even more (the Doctor's oblivious offer to Joan in the two-parter before also pissed me off), and feel even worse for Poor!Jack.

the good, James Marsters is in it... for me, the bad is that Chris Chibnall wrote it.

We shall see! If it's bad, well, the consolation is that he didn't write all of the episodes. If it's good - and I hope it will be - no problem.

Yep, we will. I'll be trying hard to resist reading opinions about the episode until I *coughacquireitcough* see it. Hopefully, that'll just be a five hour or so delay. If it's bad, there's still at least two more episodes to get through, in the second series that he wrote. *sigh*

Re: reply part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I remember reading on TWoP the speculation that RTD had rewritten "They Keep Killing Suzie" (although it's credited to two other people) and the awkwardness of the other glove/Jack and Ianto and the stopwatch certainly reminds me of the awkwardness of Jack saying bye/FoB b.s.

What an interesting point. Certainly in that (and in other episodes) one gets the impression that the story was rewritten awkwardly in progress, or not quite ready for production when aired. There are several levels of editing and polish needed for the just the minimum of character consistency and 'making sense', and those levels just isn't there. A lot to ask of a TV show? Not at all. It's what makes all the necessary difference in quality.

I, personally, tuned in for The Captain Jack Harkness spin-off, not "The Gwen Bloody Cooper and Owen Fucking Harper Show, featuring Captain Jack Harkness Show".

You, me, and all the other fans. The people who didn't want to see Captain Jack just didn't watch it at all. Who tuned in to see Owen or Gwen? No one I know. Now, I think they became interesting characters in their own right, and by the end of "End of Days" I cared about them. But that's not the point: the series is and should be about Jack. They are fine as secondary characters. But they are secondary, and putting them in a primary role just makes for an inferior show.

he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.

Yep. Not even the Doctor.

So true. We hardly saw David Tennant. Guess he needed some free time.

Another thing that bugged me was how the Master has been willing to do anything to stay alive... so where was the attempt to take over Jack's immortal body? So, so, so, so, so many missed opportunities!

The story we saw felt like a tangent. "The year that never was": I'd rather have seen "a few days that were".

I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread.

It isn't hijacking, it's growth.

I bet that's because RTD is in charge.

But why should that be? He was in charge with Nine, too, and I adored Nine. I must admit that when there were rumours a few months ago (after "The Last of the Time Lords") that RTD was leaving Doctor Who, my reaction was, "Oh, good." And what a difference from my attitude after my first delirious discovery of the show, where I felt as if he'd made it all happen. So what changed? He lost interest? He lost his sense of heroism or optimism? His priorities changed? I can't figure it.

That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.

Yes. That's what should have happened.

Poor Harriet Jones

I concur.

Re: reply part 2

[mickeyk.livejournal.com]

What an interesting point. Certainly in that (and in other episodes) one gets the impression that the story was rewritten awkwardly in progress, or not quite ready for production when aired. There are several levels of editing and polish needed for the just the minimum of character consistency and 'making sense', and those levels just isn't there. A lot to ask of a TV show? Not at all. It's what makes all the necessary difference in quality.

Yeah, let's hope we see it change for the better, in the second series. The writing definitely needs to improve.

You, me, and all the other fans. The people who didn't want to see Captain Jack just didn't watch it at all. Who tuned in to see Owen or Gwen? No one I know. Now, I think they became interesting characters in their own right, and by the end of "End of Days" I cared about them. But that's not the point: the series is and should be about Jack. They are fine as secondary characters. But they are secondary, and putting them in a primary role just makes for an inferior show.

Heh, there actually are TW fans, who didn't tune in for Jack, I found'em on imdb.com when I checked out the board there. There are also people who have never seen DW, but they like TW. I wish it would either (a) be about Jack and the rest are secondary, or (b) be a real ensemble show, so they all get about equal air time.

he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.

Yep. Not even the Doctor.

So true. We hardly saw David Tennant. Guess he needed some free time.

Except he was needed to record his lines, so I'm not seeing where he had a lot of free time. Damn, it just sucked, that's all there is to it.

The story we saw felt like a tangent. "The year that never was": I'd rather have seen "a few days that were".

Me too. I won't be at all surprised if TW doesn't even take into account The Year That Never Was, and how it would have changed Jack. And I don't care how irrelevant two missing years might be now, after over a hundred years of immortality, I still want to find out about them!

I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread.

It isn't hijacking, it's growth.

*Whew!* :)

I bet that's because RTD is in charge.

But why should that be? He was in charge with Nine, too, and I adored Nine. I must admit that when there were rumours a few months ago (after "The Last of the Time Lords") that RTD was leaving Doctor Who, my reaction was, "Oh, good." And what a difference from my attitude after my first delirious discovery of the show, where I felt as if he'd made it all happen. So what changed? He lost interest? He lost his sense of heroism or optimism? His priorities changed? I can't figure it.

Could be that RTD is feeling a bit burnt out? Different actors (CE and DT) evoke different responses? For all that CE doesn't want to be linked to DW, doesn't want to discuss it in interviews, etc., John Barrowman saying in interviews he hopes Chris is happier now, etc., CE did a hell of a job of bringing the Doctor back and I would have loved to have seen some more adventures with 9, Rose and Jack, and 9 and Jack worked wonderfully together, no matter how the actors interacted off screen.

That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.

Yes. That's what should have happened.

Yo, writers, sometimes giving the viewers what they want is the right thing to do!

Poor Harriet Jones

I concur.

Good, glad I'm not the only one.

Re: reply part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The writing definitely needs to improve.

The more I watch, the more I enjoy the writing, and see things in it that I missed before - and which I love. But there's a random, unpolished quality to it all that is perplexing. So may loose bits that I have the impression that if you shook it, it would rattle.

there actually are TW fans, who didn't tune in for Jack

I believe you. But I find it hard to imagine.

There are also people who have never seen DW, but they like TW.

I can understand that better: there are certain aspects to the DW myth that you have to take with a grain of salt, or more. Silliness that is endemic to the show. Not that Torchwood doesn't have a but of that, but it's easier to take, more diluted, more adult.

I wish it would either (a) be about Jack and the rest are secondary, or (b) be a real ensemble show, so they all get about equal air time.

I want option (a). I don't want an ensemble show. I don't like ensemble shows. I want more Jack, and more of Jack's point of view,and more of other character's point of view of Jack.

it just sucked, that's all there is to it

The more I try, the harder it is to make excuses for it.

Could be that RTD is feeling a bit burnt out?

I think that might be it. Initially he had a challenge: to revive a long-dead show. He succeeded. He made it both a popular and an artistic success. It was amazing. But then...? Sustaining the success is another kind of challenge, and burden. Anyone might burn out. Most authors do, if they don't take a break.

Christopher Eccleston was utterly brilliant and I don't think the show would have been nearly as successful without him. I think also that he and Russell T. Davies worked together with incredible insight. I don't see that kind of magic with Ten - Tennant is good, but the show is at a lesser creative or philosophical level. Even the weird gestalt of goofiness and depth that Eccleston was able to put across isn't the same.

Yo, writers, sometimes giving the viewers what they want is the right thing to do!

it isn't the right thing becuase we want it. It's the right thing because it's the best storytelling choice - and that is why we want it. There is no creative virtue to being contrary.

I loved the relationship between the Doctor and Harriet Jones in series 1. In series 2... the Doctor's attitude was not only high handed, it didn't make much sense to me. He turned on a friend. Though I didn't like this when I saw "The Christmas Invasion", it didn't bother me until I got to "The Last of the Time Lords". Looking back now, it looks like a pattern with Ten - radically breaking ties with those he cared about when he was Nine. Betraying his old friends, without regret or compassion.

I'm not saying he should have approve of her her actions, or that he shouldn't have said he disapproved. Philosophically, I agree with the Doctor, but it wasn't for him to make these judgements on behalf of an elected official of earth. He shouldn't have interfered with Earth politics. He shouldn't have toppled Harriet Jones from power. That paved the way for the Master to take over, with countless pain and suffering. And he is reponsible for delivering mankind to Utopia to become the Toclafane... if I wasn't angry with him, I'd feel that it wasn't his fault, that he too was a victim. But as the story stands? I can't feel quite so forgiving.