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Title: Companionship
Fandom: Torchwood/Doctor Who
Characters: Jack, Sarah Jane Smith
Challenge: Way back in May I accepted a challenge from
neadods to write a 'first kiss' scene between Captain Jack Harkness and Sarah Jane Smith. I did not forget. I was not even slow to start working on it, as I loved the idea. But I wrote one scenario after another and discarded them as inadequate or unconvincing. It proved to be extraordinarily difficult. Here at last is a version I like enough to post.
Rating: G
Disclaimer: Not mine, no claims, all property of the BBC.
Notes: Spoilers for Doctor Who episode "The Last of the Time Lords", with a fleeting reference to "School Reunion". Cross-posted to galactic_conman and dwfiction.
Companionship
From the very beginning, Sarah Jane Smith did not trust Captain Jack Harkness. He'd come sailing out of nowhere, appearing on her doorstep with a smile full of promises and a mouth full of lies.
Clearly he knew some things about the Doctor. He'd met Rose, yes, that she could believe. He'd been on the TARDIS, obviously; his information was too good to have been acquired any other way. Beyond that, she believed nothing. There were too many things he didn't say, or couldn't, or wouldn't. He'd met the Doctor - that didn't necessarily make him any kind of a friend of the Doctor, least of all a friend of hers.
She did some research on him, and came up with an inescapable fact: there were no records of any American named Captain Jack Harkness being in the UK since 1941. He was false as a Titanian brisket, this Captain, and she intended to keep her eye on him.
His organization, Torchwood, was even worse. It seemed everyone with any actual power knew about Torchwood, but no one knew the important details. The whole institution looked like a powder keg. She had a good talk with UNIT; they were suspicious of Torchwood, too. "Weaponry no one should have," they said, and "too much power, too little accountability". It seems Queen Victoria set up Torchwood under suspicious circumstances, to guard the world against alien threats in general and the Doctor in particular.
This was an expose waiting to be written, even if it was another article that should never see the light of day. Since Torchwood under Harkness seemed to pose no immediate threat, and the rest had disappeared with the Battle of Canary Wharf, she let it go for the sake of more immediate matters. When Captain Jack again turned up on her doorstep, she told him to go away and not come back.
One day, more than a year after the Battle of Canary Wharf, he broke the silence. She received a telephone call from Captain Jack Harkness.
"I've seen him," he said, without preamble. "I have news. Do you want to hear?"
There was only one person he could be talking about. She shouldn't listen. It might be a lie. But she'd had no word for so very long, not since the Krillitanes had invaded that school. She said, "Very well. Come to my place."
"On my way," he said, and disconnected. It was probably literally true: he no doubt rang her from his car. She put the kettle on for tea, and tried not to pace in anticipation. Luke was off somewhere with Maria, and she was glad - she wasn't sure how to explain Captain Jack to Luke. She wouldn't lie about him, of course, she didn't lie to Luke. But she didn't much want to talk about the mysterious Captain, either.
When Jack tapped on her door twenty minutes later, Sarah Jane had already finished half of her own cup of tea. His smile was as she remembered. She ignored it. "Come in," she said. "Care for some tea?" She hoped she managed to sound sufficiently casual. Friendly but not gullible. Businesslike.
"I'd rather a glass of water," he said, and she got it for him. They sat in her living room, with Jack in the large, comfortable chair, while she sat on the sofa. He said, "The TARDIS came to Cardiff to refuel. I hitched a ride. On the outside."
As he continued, she saw how absurd it was, like all his stories. A severed hand, as some sort of Doctor alert? Riding the time vortex hanging onto the outside the of TARDIS - what was he, Spider-Man? Going to the end of time? Searching for Utopia? Well, that all sounded like the Doctor, right enough, he was always into wild extremes, and seemed to be more so inclined as time went on. Not that time ever just 'went on' for the Doctor.
Captain Jack's story got more and more outrageous. Meeting another Time Lord at the end of time, one who'd lost his memory, who turned out to be a friend of the Doctor, but insane and power-hungry. Harold Saxon and Archangel. Toclafanes and warfare. A year that never was, of imprisonment, enslavement and resistance. Martha Jones, saviour of mankind. Deceptions, tricks of the mind, and psychic magic.
Sarah Jane listened to him without interruption. "Quite a story," she said, mildly, when he stopped.
"Yes."
"If I didn't know him, I wouldn't believe any of it."
"But you know him."
"I was looking into the disappearance of Harold Saxon."
"Oh?"
"And the way he popped up a couple of years ago. He was almost as mysterious as you."
Jack smiled at that. "No one is as mysterious as me."
"...But your ego is bigger."
"Not just my ego," he murmured, but she pretended not to have heard him.
She tried to picture the scene he described. The gunshot, the woman in red. The Doctor in tears. "He loved him?"
"The Master was the only other living Time Lord. The Doctor wanted to save him. It was his last chance... He couldn't save the others, back in the Time War. He thought he could maybe save this one. Just this one."
"Chivalrous nonsense," she snapped, and found herself on the verge of tears herself.
"Not nonsense. It's what he is. It's why we love him."
She looked at him quizzically. "We?"
"You. Me. Rose. Martha, too. How could we not?"
Jack was a con man, an actor. She knew that. But looking at him now, she believed that he knew the Doctor, believed that he loved him, that the Doctor had touched him in the same way he had her, and triggered a soul-deep change. Some people, after meeting the Doctor, would never be the same again.
Jack reached over and took her hand, squeezing it.
"How could we not?" she echoed. "I wish... How he must be hurting. I wish we could help."
"He'll find us if he needs us," said Jack. He kissed her hand, comforting her. Then he kissed it again.
She looked at him suspiciously, though didn't pull her hand away. "Jack Harkness. Are you coming on to me?"
He did not let go of her hand, which he had lifted to his lips. She could feel his warm breath against her knuckles as he held it there. Without moving his lips away from her skin, he lifted an eyebrow and said quizzically, as if it were another question rather than an answer, "Yes?"
She pulled her hand away quickly, and tried not to wish she hadn't. "Idiot man. I'm too old for flirtation."
He laughed - not at her, but in a warm sort of way that made even the air around him feel good. "Sarah Jane Smith, how old are you? Fifty at most? I have a century on you, and I'm not too old for flirtation. We both know someone pushing a thousand. Doesn't he make you feel young?"
"I miss him," she said bluntly. She felt like crying again. She was the idiot, a weepy old fool. She was usually more careful than this. But Jack's news about the Doctor had unsettled her, and Jack himself.... She realized how badly she had misjudged him before, and was furious with herself for it. He had needed her friendship, and she had coldly withheld it. Had she turned into such a suspicious old curmudgeon that she didn't know a friend when she met one?
"I miss him, too," said Jack gently. "Every day. Always. But it makes life worth living, you know? He's out there, doing his thing. And one day he'll return." He stood. So did she. He pulled her into his arms as if it was the most natural thing in the world, and Sarah Jane let herself accept it. He was a link to the Doctor. A link to her past and the planet's future, even if he and she hadn't shared that time together. A link to a world out there of planets and aliens and adventures and dangers and doing things that must be done.
He had a very comforting hug.
She said, "What's this about you being more than a hundred years old?"
"A hundred and fifty. But looking good, don't you think?"
"Are you human?"
"Completely."
"Then how...?"
He kissed her, lightly, on the lips. "It's a long story. It involves the fifty-first century, and the Time Agency... or maybe the year 200,100 and a Game Station... or maybe a girl hanging from a barrage balloon in the Blitz. Tell you what. Let's order Chinese and I'll tell you the story of Captain Jack Harkness and how he became immortal."
"Immortal?"
"And hungry! Have a heart. I drove all the way from Cardiff and I haven't had any lunch."
"There's a really good Chinese place just around the corner. I'll call them - Luke loves it."
"Luke?"
"I can tell you a story or two as well, Captain. Did you know I'm a mother now?"
He sat, laughing. "You're full of surprises."
"It comes with the territory. Egg rolls, do you think?"
"Definitely egg rolls," agreed Jack.
- end -
Fandom: Torchwood/Doctor Who
Characters: Jack, Sarah Jane Smith
Challenge: Way back in May I accepted a challenge from
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
Rating: G
Disclaimer: Not mine, no claims, all property of the BBC.
Notes: Spoilers for Doctor Who episode "The Last of the Time Lords", with a fleeting reference to "School Reunion". Cross-posted to galactic_conman and dwfiction.
Companionship
From the very beginning, Sarah Jane Smith did not trust Captain Jack Harkness. He'd come sailing out of nowhere, appearing on her doorstep with a smile full of promises and a mouth full of lies.
Clearly he knew some things about the Doctor. He'd met Rose, yes, that she could believe. He'd been on the TARDIS, obviously; his information was too good to have been acquired any other way. Beyond that, she believed nothing. There were too many things he didn't say, or couldn't, or wouldn't. He'd met the Doctor - that didn't necessarily make him any kind of a friend of the Doctor, least of all a friend of hers.
She did some research on him, and came up with an inescapable fact: there were no records of any American named Captain Jack Harkness being in the UK since 1941. He was false as a Titanian brisket, this Captain, and she intended to keep her eye on him.
His organization, Torchwood, was even worse. It seemed everyone with any actual power knew about Torchwood, but no one knew the important details. The whole institution looked like a powder keg. She had a good talk with UNIT; they were suspicious of Torchwood, too. "Weaponry no one should have," they said, and "too much power, too little accountability". It seems Queen Victoria set up Torchwood under suspicious circumstances, to guard the world against alien threats in general and the Doctor in particular.
This was an expose waiting to be written, even if it was another article that should never see the light of day. Since Torchwood under Harkness seemed to pose no immediate threat, and the rest had disappeared with the Battle of Canary Wharf, she let it go for the sake of more immediate matters. When Captain Jack again turned up on her doorstep, she told him to go away and not come back.
One day, more than a year after the Battle of Canary Wharf, he broke the silence. She received a telephone call from Captain Jack Harkness.
"I've seen him," he said, without preamble. "I have news. Do you want to hear?"
There was only one person he could be talking about. She shouldn't listen. It might be a lie. But she'd had no word for so very long, not since the Krillitanes had invaded that school. She said, "Very well. Come to my place."
"On my way," he said, and disconnected. It was probably literally true: he no doubt rang her from his car. She put the kettle on for tea, and tried not to pace in anticipation. Luke was off somewhere with Maria, and she was glad - she wasn't sure how to explain Captain Jack to Luke. She wouldn't lie about him, of course, she didn't lie to Luke. But she didn't much want to talk about the mysterious Captain, either.
When Jack tapped on her door twenty minutes later, Sarah Jane had already finished half of her own cup of tea. His smile was as she remembered. She ignored it. "Come in," she said. "Care for some tea?" She hoped she managed to sound sufficiently casual. Friendly but not gullible. Businesslike.
"I'd rather a glass of water," he said, and she got it for him. They sat in her living room, with Jack in the large, comfortable chair, while she sat on the sofa. He said, "The TARDIS came to Cardiff to refuel. I hitched a ride. On the outside."
As he continued, she saw how absurd it was, like all his stories. A severed hand, as some sort of Doctor alert? Riding the time vortex hanging onto the outside the of TARDIS - what was he, Spider-Man? Going to the end of time? Searching for Utopia? Well, that all sounded like the Doctor, right enough, he was always into wild extremes, and seemed to be more so inclined as time went on. Not that time ever just 'went on' for the Doctor.
Captain Jack's story got more and more outrageous. Meeting another Time Lord at the end of time, one who'd lost his memory, who turned out to be a friend of the Doctor, but insane and power-hungry. Harold Saxon and Archangel. Toclafanes and warfare. A year that never was, of imprisonment, enslavement and resistance. Martha Jones, saviour of mankind. Deceptions, tricks of the mind, and psychic magic.
Sarah Jane listened to him without interruption. "Quite a story," she said, mildly, when he stopped.
"Yes."
"If I didn't know him, I wouldn't believe any of it."
"But you know him."
"I was looking into the disappearance of Harold Saxon."
"Oh?"
"And the way he popped up a couple of years ago. He was almost as mysterious as you."
Jack smiled at that. "No one is as mysterious as me."
"...But your ego is bigger."
"Not just my ego," he murmured, but she pretended not to have heard him.
She tried to picture the scene he described. The gunshot, the woman in red. The Doctor in tears. "He loved him?"
"The Master was the only other living Time Lord. The Doctor wanted to save him. It was his last chance... He couldn't save the others, back in the Time War. He thought he could maybe save this one. Just this one."
"Chivalrous nonsense," she snapped, and found herself on the verge of tears herself.
"Not nonsense. It's what he is. It's why we love him."
She looked at him quizzically. "We?"
"You. Me. Rose. Martha, too. How could we not?"
Jack was a con man, an actor. She knew that. But looking at him now, she believed that he knew the Doctor, believed that he loved him, that the Doctor had touched him in the same way he had her, and triggered a soul-deep change. Some people, after meeting the Doctor, would never be the same again.
Jack reached over and took her hand, squeezing it.
"How could we not?" she echoed. "I wish... How he must be hurting. I wish we could help."
"He'll find us if he needs us," said Jack. He kissed her hand, comforting her. Then he kissed it again.
She looked at him suspiciously, though didn't pull her hand away. "Jack Harkness. Are you coming on to me?"
He did not let go of her hand, which he had lifted to his lips. She could feel his warm breath against her knuckles as he held it there. Without moving his lips away from her skin, he lifted an eyebrow and said quizzically, as if it were another question rather than an answer, "Yes?"
She pulled her hand away quickly, and tried not to wish she hadn't. "Idiot man. I'm too old for flirtation."
He laughed - not at her, but in a warm sort of way that made even the air around him feel good. "Sarah Jane Smith, how old are you? Fifty at most? I have a century on you, and I'm not too old for flirtation. We both know someone pushing a thousand. Doesn't he make you feel young?"
"I miss him," she said bluntly. She felt like crying again. She was the idiot, a weepy old fool. She was usually more careful than this. But Jack's news about the Doctor had unsettled her, and Jack himself.... She realized how badly she had misjudged him before, and was furious with herself for it. He had needed her friendship, and she had coldly withheld it. Had she turned into such a suspicious old curmudgeon that she didn't know a friend when she met one?
"I miss him, too," said Jack gently. "Every day. Always. But it makes life worth living, you know? He's out there, doing his thing. And one day he'll return." He stood. So did she. He pulled her into his arms as if it was the most natural thing in the world, and Sarah Jane let herself accept it. He was a link to the Doctor. A link to her past and the planet's future, even if he and she hadn't shared that time together. A link to a world out there of planets and aliens and adventures and dangers and doing things that must be done.
He had a very comforting hug.
She said, "What's this about you being more than a hundred years old?"
"A hundred and fifty. But looking good, don't you think?"
"Are you human?"
"Completely."
"Then how...?"
He kissed her, lightly, on the lips. "It's a long story. It involves the fifty-first century, and the Time Agency... or maybe the year 200,100 and a Game Station... or maybe a girl hanging from a barrage balloon in the Blitz. Tell you what. Let's order Chinese and I'll tell you the story of Captain Jack Harkness and how he became immortal."
"Immortal?"
"And hungry! Have a heart. I drove all the way from Cardiff and I haven't had any lunch."
"There's a really good Chinese place just around the corner. I'll call them - Luke loves it."
"Luke?"
"I can tell you a story or two as well, Captain. Did you know I'm a mother now?"
He sat, laughing. "You're full of surprises."
"It comes with the territory. Egg rolls, do you think?"
"Definitely egg rolls," agreed Jack.
- end -
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-20 04:11 pm (UTC)Heh, or as a friend refers to it, "Random Shit". Doesn't RTD have minimal involvement with TW, and it's more Julie Gardner's and Chris Chibnall's baby? And considering the latter's 1st series episodes, doesn't that thought just horrify you and make you quake in your figurative boots? I remember reading on TWoP the speculation that RTD had rewritten "They Keep Killing Suzie" (although it's credited to two other people) and the awkwardness of the other glove/Jack and Ianto and the stopwatch certainly reminds me of the awkwardness of Jack saying bye/FoB b.s.
I believe
In any case, Jack was shafted. I thought RTD just wasn't particularly interested in him here - he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.
Yep. Not even the Doctor. *sigh* Where were the crackling scenes between the Doctor and the Master? Another thing that bugged me was how the Master has been willing to do anything to stay alive... so where was the attempt to take over Jack's immortal body? So, so, so, so, so many missed opportunities!
I'm glad you said something here. I'm happy to have people to talk to about this, because I share those concerns, even if I'm managed to get to a more philosphical attitude about it, rather than the sense of shock I felt right after seeing "The Last of the Time Lords". Most fans don't seem to have noticed or cared about these concerns, and it's something I feel the need to discuss in order to come to terms with it.
Thank you. :) I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread. *grin*
I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but I ain't rewatching it! I'm getting the DVD to hear the commentary for that ep, and to see the deleted scenes. I'll rewatch "Utopia" probably, and maybe "The Sound of Drums", at least the scenes with Jack.
I find all sorts of ways to reinterpret things that make me feel better, but I can't quite find a way that redeems the Doctor.
I bet that's because RTD is in charge. I hope DT will be around when someone else is in charge of the show, to see if Ten becomes more likeable, more compassionate. That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.
One of the strong themes I got from series 1 was that however crusty he may be, the Doctor loves Earth and the people of Earth, both individually (sometimes) and collectively. I'm not so sure that's still true, with Ten. Or that it's still demonstrably true.
I agree. Poor Harriet Jones. :~(
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-20 05:22 pm (UTC)Heh. I liked the story well enough, but it didn't hold a candle to "Love and Monsters", and suffered for a lack of Jack. Just think how much more I'd have liked it if Jack had been in Gwen's role there.
Doesn't RTD have minimal involvement with TW, and it's more Julie Gardner's and Chris Chibnall's baby?
Quite possibly. Which is okay. I'm not sure how the duties are distributed but I know RTD has said that he's primarily concerned with DW - TW seems to be of much less interest to him.
And considering the latter's 1st series episodes, doesn't that thought just horrify you and make you quake in your figurative boots?
Not entirely. Unlike most fans, I liked the Chris Chibnall episodes - "Cyberwoman" is one of my favourites. My very favourites were by Catherine Tregana, I wish they'd give her the creative control! Okay, "End of Days" was a total mess, but it had brilliant moments.
I'm hoping that the random nature of the writing in TW series 1 reflects a lack of time and resources, rather than lack of talent, and that TW2 will be tighter and more carefully written. Helen Raynor was probably the writer I liked least.
Gotta run, more on this later...
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-21 12:14 am (UTC)You know, I still haven't watched "Love and Monsters", because of the lack of the Doctor, when I still sort of liked him. *sigh*
Yes, on first viewing, "Random Shoes" was really good, but since I can't stand Gwen, and she's the only one really featured heavily in it... guess which one I haven't really bothered checking out again, except to find the few measly minutes of Jack and rewatched him? If it had featured Jack or Ianto or Tosh, I bet I would have watched it again, just to see someone on the screen instead of Gwen. I'd rather have Jaquetta May write more episodes, instead of Chibnall (bleh!).
Not entirely. Unlike most fans, I liked the Chris Chibnall episodes - "Cyberwoman" is one of my favourites. My very favourites were by Catherine Tregana, I wish they'd give her the creative control! Okay, "End of Days" was a total mess, but it had brilliant moments.
EoD, my fave bit was Jack in the office, and then hearing the sound of the TARDIS, his smile and looking completely different from TW Jack, then disappearing. The others standing there, Gwen certain that Jack's been taken (man, how oblivious can she be? Yo, Gwen, what did Jack just say a few minutes ago? That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything? Where's your proof or any kind of evidence that Jack didn't want to leave? Gah!!!!), and pulling away from the Hub, to the Bay, and back further... it certainly did its job and got me all excited for Jack on DW... and, well, you know my feelings on how that went, by the end!
I'm hoping that the random nature of the writing in TW series 1 reflects a lack of time and resources, rather than lack of talent, and that TW2 will be tighter and more carefully written. Helen Raynor was probably the writer I liked least.
Yeah, we'll see how they do with more time to concentrate on it and less goofs. We'll really see with the first episode... the good, James Marsters is in it... for me, the bad is that Chris Chibnall wrote it.
Hope you had to run, to have some fun!
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-21 04:54 pm (UTC)His role isn't large, but what there is, is lovely. I like that story. It's helps that I'm a big fan of Jackie Tyler, and she's nicely heroic in this. In a Jackie-like sort of way.
on first viewing, "Random Shoes" was really good, but since I can't stand Gwen, and she's the only one really featured heavily in it...
I love Gwen, but didn't think she was at her best in this one, and she's more interesting when she's interacting with Jack or others on the Torchwood team. Or Rhys, who is totally missing here.
I'd rather have Jaquetta May write more episodes, instead of Chibnall (bleh!).
Many fans would agree with you.
, my fave bit was Jack in the office, and then hearing the sound of the TARDIS, his smile and looking completely different from TW Jack, then disappearing.
That was my favourite bit, too. But there were other bits I liked. And bits I hated. An odd episode.
That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything?
He was running...! But I can see her reasoning.
His role isn't large, but what there is, is lovely. I like that story. It's helps that I'm a big fan of Jackie Tyler, and she's nicely heroic in this. In a Jackie-like sort of way.
<i>on first viewing, "Random Shoes" was really good, but since I can't stand Gwen, and she's the only one really featured heavily in it...</i>
I love Gwen, but didn't think she was at her best in this one, and she's more interesting when she's interacting with Jack or others on the Torchwood team. Or Rhys, who is totally missing here.
<i>I'd rather have Jaquetta May write more episodes, instead of Chibnall (bleh!).</i>
Many fans would agree with you.
<i>, my fave bit was Jack in the office, and then hearing the sound of the TARDIS, his smile and looking completely different from TW Jack, then disappearing.</i>
That was my favourite bit, too. But there were other bits I liked. And bits I hated. An odd episode.
<i>That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything?</i>
He was running...! But I can see her reasoning.
<iit certainly did its job and got me all excited for Jack on DW... and, well, you know my feelings on how that went, by the end!</i>
I agree exactly. Jack was so happy and excited to see the Doctor again... and then look at the reception he got.
<i>the good, James Marsters is in it... for me, the bad is that Chris Chibnall wrote it.</i>
We shall see! If it's bad, well, the consolation is that he didn't write all of the episodes. If it's good - and I hope it will be - no problem.
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-21 10:29 pm (UTC)Yeah, probably does help you, I'm not a huge Jackie fan so that could be another reason I haven't watched it, but I'm glad she's heroice in a Jackie-like way.
I love Gwen,
Hee, my sympathies! ;) Yes, I'm just teasing, I'm glad there are people who can enjoy seeing her on TW. Funny thing is, I thought Eve was great as Gwyneth in "The Unquiet Dead" and I really wish her character had survived. I think Eve's very good at acting, but oh my gosh, I can NOT stand Gwen. I'd be happy(ier) if somehow, Gwen and Gwenyth were switched, and Gwen died in Gwenyth's place, then Gwyneth could work for TW, try to settle into a different century, etc., etc., etc.
but didn't think she was at her best in this one, and she's more interesting when she's interacting with Jack or others on the Torchwood team. Or Rhys, who is totally missing here.
That was another thing that bugged me, Gwen paying the late fee for the DVDs, the thirty pounds that the guy claimed. I would have enjoyed Gwen more, if she'd pointed out he's lucky to be getting them back at all, and left.
We certainly got way too much of Rhys in the next episode! *rolls eyes, and feels sorry for Emma and her ringside seat* (and in the finale).
I'd like to see some of the others getting to interact with Jack, too, like Tosh, Ianto and Owen, not just Gwen.
But then, I love Jack and, hey, any excuse to show him on screen... *grin*
That the right kind of (D)octor would have tempted him? You didn't hear Jack scream or anything?
He was running...! But I can see her reasoning.
As far as I could see in TW, he wasn't running, but yes, I intend to check the ending on CBC... whenever we get it (and on the DVD). I've read (I think on both the imdb.com board and TWoP) that there's a tiny figure shown to be running when it pans outside the Hub and I'll be looking for that. But the last time we see Jack, his face, it's the sound of the TARDIS, his hair is ruffled by some kind of wind, and he smiles. Gwen comes out of the office and he's gone.
I agree exactly. Jack was so happy and excited to see the Doctor again... and then look at the reception he got.
Yeah, makes me dislike the Doctor even more (the Doctor's oblivious offer to Joan in the two-parter before also pissed me off), and feel even worse for Poor!Jack.
the good, James Marsters is in it... for me, the bad is that Chris Chibnall wrote it.
We shall see! If it's bad, well, the consolation is that he didn't write all of the episodes. If it's good - and I hope it will be - no problem.
Yep, we will. I'll be trying hard to resist reading opinions about the episode until I *coughacquireitcough* see it. Hopefully, that'll just be a five hour or so delay. If it's bad, there's still at least two more episodes to get through, in the second series that he wrote. *sigh*
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 01:18 am (UTC)...While I never liked Gwyneth, and found her dead boring. I was disappointed when I heard that the same actress would be in Torchwood. Then I pretty much fell for Gwen and it was all right. I wish she was less of an idiot, but that doesn't affect my affection.
Gwen paying the late fee for the DVDs, the thirty pounds that the guy claimed. I would have enjoyed Gwen more, if she'd pointed out he's lucky to be getting them back at all, and left.
Did she think she'd get more information out of him if she paid? That didn't make much sense to me.
We certainly got way too much of Rhys in the next episode!
I'd rather have been watching Jack.
But the last time we see Jack, his face, it's the sound of the TARDIS, his hair is ruffled by some kind of wind, and he smiles. Gwen comes out of the office and he's gone.
it does seem to imply he's there. Okay, because of what you said, I just went and looked at the end of "End of Days" again, and yes, there he is, Jack running as fast as he can in the arial view, across the plaza - thank you for pointing this out. How cool! I had no idea.
I love discovering something new in an episode I've watched over and over already.
makes me dislike the Doctor even more (the Doctor's oblivious offer to Joan in the two-parter before also pissed me off)
I liked it at the time. Not so much now, that I'm less inclined to be sympathetic to him. I liked it because it emphasized the difference between John Smith and the Doctor, and I didn't much like John Smith.
I'll be trying hard to resist reading opinions about the episode until I *coughacquireitcough* see it.
Me too. Sometimes the wait is excruciatingly long. Painful. And I have to keep away from LJ because there are so many spoilers.
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 02:20 am (UTC)Having only watched Torchwood on my computer I've missed that bit.
For the life of me though, I still don't see how he GOT to the plaza without the others seeing him. We've only ever seen two ways in or out- the lift (too slow) and the main door (the others were coming in so he couldn't have used it) so HOW did jack get out of the Hub?
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 02:50 am (UTC)Can't you make it out on the computer? I guess it would be kind of small. It looks small on the TV screen, too. But it still manages somehow to appear Jacklike, small though the figure is.
Makes me wonder if there are other details in the aerial shots at the ends of other episodes I've missed. I love the one that shows the pterodactyl flying free - I'm not sure, but I think that's the end of "Everything Changes".
I still don't see how he GOT to the plaza without the others seeing him.
The books mention that Torchwood has numerous hidden entrances and exits. Presumably Suzie managed to shut them all down in "They Keep Killing Suzie". So presumably Jack used one of them. Perhaps the others don't know they exist?
Re: reply part 2
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Date: 2007-10-22 02:47 am (UTC)I wish she was, too. *sigh* That applies for all of them, actually, even Jack. I'd love to see him get his leadership skills back, deal effectively with problems (ie., the others taking alien tech out of the Hub, let's see Jack be aware of it and put a stop to it in a good way).
Did she think she'd get more information out of him if she paid? That didn't make much sense to me.
Probably. Gwen, here's your card, 'I'm An Idiot', wear it proudly!
We certainly got way too much of Rhys in the next episode!
I'd rather have been watching Jack.
Me too! For all of the episodes, too, but I liked his stuff in "Out Of Time". I thought JB did a really good job.
Oops... another idea... how about a series of fics for TW S1, focusing on Jack and what we didn't get to see him do, in the episodes?
No, no, no need to thank me, for adding to your list of fics, seeing them written will be thanks enough. *grin*
But the last time we see Jack, his face, it's the sound of the TARDIS, his hair is ruffled by some kind of wind, and he smiles. Gwen comes out of the office and he's gone.
it does seem to imply he's there. Okay, because of what you said, I just went and looked at the end of "End of Days" again, and yes, there he is, Jack running as fast as he can in the arial view, across the plaza - thank you for pointing this out. How cool! I had no idea.
I still can't see a figure running. *sigh* Hello, slow mo, when I get the DVDs. The hand is gone when Gwen looks around so another thing I'd like to know is where did the backpack come from and how did Jack manage to stuff the hand and jar into it so fast?
You're welcome, though, for the passing on of information. :)
makes me dislike the Doctor even more (the Doctor's oblivious offer to Joan in the two-parter before also pissed me off)
I liked it at the time. Not so much now, that I'm less inclined to be sympathetic to him. I liked it because it emphasized the difference between John Smith and the Doctor, and I didn't much like John Smith.
John Smith was all right (and how weird is that, that the Master as a human, is much better a person than the Doctor in human form?) but it certainly emphasized Ten's callousness to me, offering Joan a chance to travel in the TARDIS, both Joan's pain at Ten not being John Smith, and Martha's obvious feelings for Ten being ignored yet again by Ten.
I'll be trying hard to resist reading opinions about the episode until I *coughacquireitcough* see it.
Me too. Sometimes the wait is excruciatingly long. Painful. And I have to keep away from LJ because there are so many spoilers.
Yeah, I'm glad it's usually just a matter of hours for me (hope it is for you, too). I caught the first four or five episodes at one time though, because that was when I realized I could probably get them, found out that yes, I could, and either "Cyberwoman" or "Small Worlds" had just aired in the U.K.
Oh well, no doubt you'll be using the time to write fics with Jack for me, while you wait to see new TW. ;)
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 03:30 am (UTC)Me too. He doesn't even seem to pay attention when they disobey his orders. I was horrified when Gwen took the Ghost Machine home, after the directive from Jack that they were never to do that. That horrified me more, in its way, than Gwen lying to Rhys: I thought she respected Jack enough to obey him.
The line when he said to Tosh in "Greeks Bearing Gifts" that he wasn't a 'real' boss rang true. He hasn't been trying. He's been depressed, and probably preoccupied. I hope he (and the others) get their acts together next series. They don't have to be prefect. A modicum of competence would be acceptable. Otherwise we'll feel as if we're watching The Five Stooges.
I liked his stuff in "Out Of Time"
So did I. Did you read my story about John Ellis? It's here (http://fajrdrako.livejournal.com/565554.html).
how about a series of fics for TW S1, focusing on Jack and what we didn't get to see him do, in the episodes?
What a great idea! It also gives me a good excuse to watch all the episodes all over again, to pick scenes to write about.
Not that I have any time to do this at all, you understand. But it's a great idea. I could get excited over this. There are two 'missing' scenes I already have been planning to write.
I still can't see a figure running.
Look right in the middle of the plaza, between the upright things. Jack is making a beeline right through the middle. I love this. I wish I'd noticed before - now I feel unobservant. It isn't as if I haven't watched the end of that episode a thousand times....!
I'd like to know is where did the backpack come from and how did Jack manage to stuff the hand and jar into it so fast?
Obviously the backpack was nearby - maybe he had it stored under the hand - and Jack can move really fast when he wants to.
I put the disc in my computer and can still see it. As the camera cuts to the exterior aerial view, Jack has just run past the first set of uprights, at the bottom of the plaza, all towards the top right of the screen. As the camera pulls up, we can see him crossing the plaza, right through the centre of it. Then the camera changes angle, to show the plaza from the bay... I'm trying to make out if we can see something that might be the TARDIS. No. I don't think so. Can't get my computer to go slow motion enough to see without crashing the program. It's fascinating, though.
and how weird is that, that the Master as a human, is much better a person than the Doctor in human form?
It is weird, and I can understand it, though I don't share the sentiment. I thought John Smith was weak and a bit dull. Not so much a human version of the Doctor as a rather ordinary person who didn't like challenges and didn't know how to rise up to them with integrity.
both Joan's pain at Ten not being John Smith, and Martha's obvious feelings for Ten being ignored yet again by Ten.
I agreed with that but I liked it because I thought it was a clear message from the Doctor: "You can't have John Smith, because he doesn't exist. You can have me, but only on my own terms, which you probably won't like." All part of his gathering people to him while pushing them away, which he had been doing with Martha for most of the season. I liked the other implications - the "let's all get together for a big TARDIS party" implication, the polyamorous nuance (was that deliberate?). Partly it was the emphasis on the fact that he wasn't John Smith, he was a very different order of being which she didn't even know. I suppose I even liked the callousness of it - in that instance. Partly because it was callousness towards Joan, whom I didn't much like either (though she deserved better). And he was kind to Martha after that, and her thanked her, and was nice to Timmy.
it's usually just a matter of hours for me (hope it is for you, too)
usually, but it varies. It's often the next day before I get a chance to actually watch the episode, but not always - I'm so happy the UK is five hours ahead of us.
no doubt you'll be using the time to write fics with Jack for me, while you wait to see new TW. ;)
That's one of the things I'll be doing.
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 07:34 am (UTC)Me too. He doesn't even seem to pay attention when they disobey his orders. I was horrified when Gwen took the Ghost Machine home, after the directive from Jack that they were never to do that. That horrified me more, in its way, than Gwen lying to Rhys: I thought she respected Jack enough to obey him.
Yeah, Gwen has the brain power and morality of a cabbage... no offense to cabbages.
Re: Jack and Retcon and I can't remember if I replied that I'm horrified by that, too, how easily he uses it. It's the same damn thing that happened to Jack, someone tampered with his memories and removed two years' worth. He's removing less, time-wise, but it's the same damned thing. Bad Jack!!!
The line when he said to Tosh in "Greeks Bearing Gifts" that he wasn't a 'real' boss rang true. He hasn't been trying. He's been depressed, and probably preoccupied. I hope he (and the others) get their acts together next series. They don't have to be perfect. A modicum of competence would be acceptable. Otherwise we'll feel as if we're watching The Five Stooges.
Yeah, I had no problem believing Jack either, when he said he wasn't a real boss. Can they get at least five modicums of competence? *grin*
So did I. Did you read my story about John Ellis? It's here.
Thanks! :)
how about a series of fics for TW S1, focusing on Jack and what we didn't get to see him do, in the episodes?
What a great idea! It also gives me a good excuse to watch all the episodes all over again, to pick scenes to write about.
Not that I have any time to do this at all, you understand. But it's a great idea. I could get excited over this. There are two 'missing' scenes I already have been planning to write.
Thank you. :) Here, have another idea: Jack returns to Torchwood, and someone else is in his office, working. Whoever funds Torchwood doesn't like that Jack disappeared and don't trust Owen in charge, so someone has been sent to take over. How would Jack deal with the situation? How would he regain control? Who, of Torchwood Three, would want Jack to return as their boss and what would s/he do to help? who wouldn't, and what would s/he do to hinder Jack returning?
I'd like to know is where did the backpack come from and how did Jack manage to stuff the hand and jar into it so fast?
Obviously the backpack was nearby - maybe he had it stored under the hand - and Jack can move really fast when he wants to.
Backpack is like the smoking gun though, we should have seen a glimpse of it, and wasn't the jar connected to something, Jack would have to undo the connections to move it?
it's usually just a matter of hours for me (hope it is for you, too)
usually, but it varies. It's often the next day before I get a chance to actually watch the episode, but not always - I'm so happy the UK is five hours ahead of us.
Me too.
no doubt you'll be using the time to write fics with Jack for me, while you wait to see new TW. ;)
That's one of the things I'll be doing.
Yay! What else will you be doing, besides avoiding lj etc. so you don't get spoilers?
Re: reply part 2
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Date: 2007-10-21 06:51 pm (UTC)What an interesting point. Certainly in that (and in other episodes) one gets the impression that the story was rewritten awkwardly in progress, or not quite ready for production when aired. There are several levels of editing and polish needed for the just the minimum of character consistency and 'making sense', and those levels just isn't there. A lot to ask of a TV show? Not at all. It's what makes all the necessary difference in quality.
I, personally, tuned in for The Captain Jack Harkness spin-off, not "The Gwen Bloody Cooper and Owen Fucking Harper Show, featuring Captain Jack Harkness Show".
You, me, and all the other fans. The people who didn't want to see Captain Jack just didn't watch it at all. Who tuned in to see Owen or Gwen? No one I know. Now, I think they became interesting characters in their own right, and by the end of "End of Days" I cared about them. But that's not the point: the series is and should be about Jack. They are fine as secondary characters. But they are secondary, and putting them in a primary role just makes for an inferior show.
he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.
Yep. Not even the Doctor.
So true. We hardly saw David Tennant. Guess he needed some free time.
Another thing that bugged me was how the Master has been willing to do anything to stay alive... so where was the attempt to take over Jack's immortal body? So, so, so, so, so many missed opportunities!
The story we saw felt like a tangent. "The year that never was": I'd rather have seen "a few days that were".
I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread.
It isn't hijacking, it's growth.
I bet that's because RTD is in charge.
But why should that be? He was in charge with Nine, too, and I adored Nine. I must admit that when there were rumours a few months ago (after "The Last of the Time Lords") that RTD was leaving Doctor Who, my reaction was, "Oh, good." And what a difference from my attitude after my first delirious discovery of the show, where I felt as if he'd made it all happen. So what changed? He lost interest? He lost his sense of heroism or optimism? His priorities changed? I can't figure it.
That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.
Yes. That's what should have happened.
Poor Harriet Jones
I concur.
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 01:46 am (UTC)Yeah, let's hope we see it change for the better, in the second series. The writing definitely needs to improve.
You, me, and all the other fans. The people who didn't want to see Captain Jack just didn't watch it at all. Who tuned in to see Owen or Gwen? No one I know. Now, I think they became interesting characters in their own right, and by the end of "End of Days" I cared about them. But that's not the point: the series is and should be about Jack. They are fine as secondary characters. But they are secondary, and putting them in a primary role just makes for an inferior show.
Heh, there actually are TW fans, who didn't tune in for Jack, I found'em on imdb.com when I checked out the board there. There are also people who have never seen DW, but they like TW. I wish it would either (a) be about Jack and the rest are secondary, or (b) be a real ensemble show, so they all get about equal air time.
he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.
Yep. Not even the Doctor.
So true. We hardly saw David Tennant. Guess he needed some free time.
Except he was needed to record his lines, so I'm not seeing where he had a lot of free time. Damn, it just sucked, that's all there is to it.
The story we saw felt like a tangent. "The year that never was": I'd rather have seen "a few days that were".
Me too. I won't be at all surprised if TW doesn't even take into account The Year That Never Was, and how it would have changed Jack. And I don't care how irrelevant two missing years might be now, after over a hundred years of immortality, I still want to find out about them!
I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread.
It isn't hijacking, it's growth.
*Whew!* :)
I bet that's because RTD is in charge.
But why should that be? He was in charge with Nine, too, and I adored Nine. I must admit that when there were rumours a few months ago (after "The Last of the Time Lords") that RTD was leaving Doctor Who, my reaction was, "Oh, good." And what a difference from my attitude after my first delirious discovery of the show, where I felt as if he'd made it all happen. So what changed? He lost interest? He lost his sense of heroism or optimism? His priorities changed? I can't figure it.
Could be that RTD is feeling a bit burnt out? Different actors (CE and DT) evoke different responses? For all that CE doesn't want to be linked to DW, doesn't want to discuss it in interviews, etc., John Barrowman saying in interviews he hopes Chris is happier now, etc., CE did a hell of a job of bringing the Doctor back and I would have loved to have seen some more adventures with 9, Rose and Jack, and 9 and Jack worked wonderfully together, no matter how the actors interacted off screen.
That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.
Yes. That's what should have happened.
Yo, writers, sometimes giving the viewers what they want is the right thing to do!
Poor Harriet Jones
I concur.
Good, glad I'm not the only one.
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 02:03 am (UTC)The more I watch, the more I enjoy the writing, and see things in it that I missed before - and which I love. But there's a random, unpolished quality to it all that is perplexing. So may loose bits that I have the impression that if you shook it, it would rattle.
there actually are TW fans, who didn't tune in for Jack
I believe you. But I find it hard to imagine.
There are also people who have never seen DW, but they like TW.
I can understand that better: there are certain aspects to the DW myth that you have to take with a grain of salt, or more. Silliness that is endemic to the show. Not that Torchwood doesn't have a but of that, but it's easier to take, more diluted, more adult.
I wish it would either (a) be about Jack and the rest are secondary, or (b) be a real ensemble show, so they all get about equal air time.
I want option (a). I don't want an ensemble show. I don't like ensemble shows. I want more Jack, and more of Jack's point of view,and more of other character's point of view of Jack.
it just sucked, that's all there is to it
The more I try, the harder it is to make excuses for it.
Could be that RTD is feeling a bit burnt out?
I think that might be it. Initially he had a challenge: to revive a long-dead show. He succeeded. He made it both a popular and an artistic success. It was amazing. But then...? Sustaining the success is another kind of challenge, and burden. Anyone might burn out. Most authors do, if they don't take a break.
Christopher Eccleston was utterly brilliant and I don't think the show would have been nearly as successful without him. I think also that he and Russell T. Davies worked together with incredible insight. I don't see that kind of magic with Ten - Tennant is good, but the show is at a lesser creative or philosophical level. Even the weird gestalt of goofiness and depth that Eccleston was able to put across isn't the same.
Yo, writers, sometimes giving the viewers what they want is the right thing to do!
it isn't the right thing becuase we want it. It's the right thing because it's the best storytelling choice - and that is why we want it. There is no creative virtue to being contrary.
I loved the relationship between the Doctor and Harriet Jones in series 1. In series 2... the Doctor's attitude was not only high handed, it didn't make much sense to me. He turned on a friend. Though I didn't like this when I saw "The Christmas Invasion", it didn't bother me until I got to "The Last of the Time Lords". Looking back now, it looks like a pattern with Ten - radically breaking ties with those he cared about when he was Nine. Betraying his old friends, without regret or compassion.
I'm not saying he should have approve of her her actions, or that he shouldn't have said he disapproved. Philosophically, I agree with the Doctor, but it wasn't for him to make these judgements on behalf of an elected official of earth. He shouldn't have interfered with Earth politics. He shouldn't have toppled Harriet Jones from power. That paved the way for the Master to take over, with countless pain and suffering. And he is reponsible for delivering mankind to Utopia to become the Toclafane... if I wasn't angry with him, I'd feel that it wasn't his fault, that he too was a victim. But as the story stands? I can't feel quite so forgiving.
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 02:23 am (UTC)He had such a range, it was really amazing and rather helped the series take off
Re: reply part 2
Date: 2007-10-22 02:38 am (UTC)I miss him dreadfully - more than I did, really, during seriss 2. But I was still catching up, then.
His talent is utterly amazing, and the more I watch, the more I see in it.
Re: reply part 2a
Date: 2007-10-22 04:21 am (UTC)The more I watch, the more I enjoy the writing, and see things in it that I missed before - and which I love. But there's a random, unpolished quality to it all that is perplexing. So may loose bits that I have the impression that if you shook it, it would rattle.
So when are you going to do a post about each episode and what you've noticed on repeat viewings? ;) (Don't you just love all of my writing suggestions for you?)
there actually are TW fans, who didn't tune in for Jack
I believe you. But I find it hard to imagine.
heh, behold the stupidity: http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0485301/board/threads/
You'll have to register with imdb.com to read the boards, but it's free.
And yes, there is some mind-blowing stupidity there.
There are also people who have never seen DW, but they like TW.
I can understand that better: there are certain aspects to the DW myth that you have to take with a grain of salt, or more. Silliness that is endemic to the show. Not that Torchwood doesn't have a but of that, but it's easier to take, more diluted, more adult.
I'm still waiting to see some more adult stuff on it, there's quite a few scenes that seem gratuitous to me.
I wish it would either (a) be about Jack and the rest are secondary, or (b) be a real ensemble show, so they all get about equal air time.
I want option (a). I don't want an ensemble show. I don't like ensemble shows. I want more Jack, and more of Jack's point of view,and more of other character's point of view of Jack.
I want option (a) too, especially since the two (not Jack) who got the most air time drive me nuts and I'd be happy never to see them again, and I suspect the sole reason I'm not as ticked off with Tosh and Ianto is because they're barely shown.
Christopher Eccleston was utterly brilliant and I don't think the show would have been nearly as successful without him. I think also that he and Russell T. Davies worked together with incredible insight. I don't see that kind of magic with Ten - Tennant is good, but the show is at a lesser creative or philosophical level. Even the weird gestalt of goofiness and depth that Eccleston was able to put across isn't the same.
Yes, he was, and as much as I thought he was really awesome in the role... I wonder how 9 would have been, as the Doctor, if John Barrowman had been cast in the role instead? At least the actor would have been happy to be in it, a huge part of it. We'd probably still have 9, but as for the acting and personality... guess it would depend on how much like JB they'd make the Doctor. If he was like TW! S1 Jack, I don't think he'd've been nearly as successful, but if the fun side of his personality shone through... who knows?
Yo, writers, sometimes giving the viewers what they want is the right thing to do!
it isn't the right thing becuase we want it. It's the right thing because it's the best storytelling choice - and that is why we want it. There is no creative virtue to being contrary.
I'm sure it didn't come across, but yeah, I meant my 'giving the viewers what they want' in the 'it's better storytelling' sense, not just pandering to the masses.
(continued below)
Re: reply part 2a
Date: 2007-10-22 01:36 pm (UTC)As time allows. A reply that means everything and nothing. I am, sort of, watching the episodes again as they air on CBC.
Thanks for the link. Yes, amazing how some posters have no clue!
since the two (not Jack) who got the most air time drive me nuts
Owen and Gwen? I agree. Much as I like "Out of Time" as an episode, when Owen got yet another ongoing sex scene I was annoyed. Why Owen, and never Jack? Why Owen at all? I know Russell T. Davies thinks Burn Gorman is sexy, but I don't; in fact, he's the only regular character on the show that I don't find sexy.
I suspect the sole reason I'm not as ticked off with Tosh and Ianto is because they're barely shown.
By the end of series 1 I was annoyed with Tosh for being a wimp and with Ianto for betraying Jack, but I do like both characters, and just hope for better stories with them.
wonder how 9 would have been, as the Doctor, if John Barrowman had been cast in the role instead?
Interesting question. "Different" is a safe answer.
Re: reply part 2a
Date: 2007-10-24 05:11 am (UTC)Thanks for the link. Yes, amazing how some posters have no clue!
So, in other words, stay tuned, eh! *grin*
You're welcome, and yep, there have been some really incredible stupidity there.
Owen and Gwen? I agree. Much as I like "Out of Time" as an episode, when Owen got yet another ongoing sex scene I was annoyed. Why Owen, and never Jack? Why Owen at all? I know Russell T. Davies thinks Burn Gorman is sexy, but I don't; in fact, he's the only regular character on the show that I don't find sexy.
EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't know RTD thinks Burn Gorman is sexy! *shudder* *shiver*
Obviously, yet again, they're not giving the audience what they want (less clothing for Jack), but what the producers, etc., of the show want. *shudder*
I suspect the sole reason I'm not as ticked off with Tosh and Ianto is because they're barely shown.
By the end of series 1 I was annoyed with Tosh for being a wimp and with Ianto for betraying Jack, but I do like both characters, and just hope for better stories with them.
I think Tosh showed she's not a wimp, when she unhesitatingly sliced open her palm, to write in her own blood. Yeah, I was annoyed with Ianto for betraying Jack, but I'm even more pissed off that Owen shot Jack dead and fired a few more times, expecting Jack to stay dead. Bastard.
wonder how 9 would have been, as the Doctor, if John Barrowman had been cast in the role instead?
Interesting question. "Different" is a safe answer.
Hee! I want your real theorizing, not your safe answer. *grin* I promise I won't hold it against you if you think it's the worst idea, ever.
Re: reply part 2a
Date: 2007-10-31 05:57 pm (UTC)One really wonders at his taste. To each his own and all that, and this is the man who has cast Christopher Eccleston and Aiden Gillan and John Barrowman in lead roles must recognize 'sexy' when he sees it. But yes... I am quoting from the Torchwood Declassified in which Davies enthuses about how sexy Burn Gorman is, a bad boy with an edge - to which I could only think, "Huh?" and "I wish!"
Now, I find Owen interesting, and interestingly written. But he isn't a 'sexy bad boy'. He's an unprincipled loser. Believe me, I know sexy bad boys when I see them. Burn Gorman is not Johnny Depp in Cry-Baby by a long shot.
they're not giving the audience what they want (less clothing for Jack), but what the producers, etc., of the show want. *shudder*
I don't think they make any pretence about this. Russell T. Davies says he doesn't know or care what the audience wants or thinks; I think they're all just trying to produce good watchable shows on their own terms. Which, to a point, works. And to another point, doesn't. I respect them for that sense of autonomy and creative control - I just wish they had better judgement about some things.
I think Tosh showed she's not a wimp, when she unhesitatingly sliced open her palm, to write in her own blood.
That was one example. I liked the scene where she and Jack discover the corpse in "Combat" and i liked her action-sequence roles in "Countrycide".
I'm even more pissed off that Owen shot Jack dead and fired a few more times, expecting Jack to stay dead. Bastard.
Yeah. Bastard.
I want your real theorizing, not your safe answer.
Well... heh... I like Barrowman and Eccleston so much together, if we're casting Barrowman as the Doctor, I want to cast Eccleston as Jack. I think Barrowman as the Doctor would be more reckless, less of a mentor for Rose. Less 'safe', maybe.
Re: reply part 2b
Date: 2007-10-22 04:21 am (UTC)I loved the relationship between the Doctor and Harriet Jones in series 1. In series 2... the Doctor's attitude was not only high handed, it didn't make much sense to me. He turned on a friend. Though I didn't like this when I saw "The Christmas Invasion", it didn't bother me until I got to "The Last of the Time Lords". Looking back now, it looks like a pattern with Ten - radically breaking ties with those he cared about when he was Nine. Betraying his old friends, without regret or compassion.
I did, too, between 9 and Harriet Jones. It bothered me as soon as I saw it, in "The Christmas Invasion", especially the sexist way it happened (do you think it would have worked, if the P.M. had been male? I don't think that the six words would have had any effect at all).
Or even previous to 9, until Rose spoke up, he wasn't going to ask Sarah Jane if she wanted to travel with them.
I'm not saying he should have approve of her her actions, or that he shouldn't have said he disapproved. Philosophically, I agree with the Doctor, but it wasn't for him to make these judgements on behalf of an elected official of earth.
I agree with this, except I'm more sympathetic to Harriet's p.o.v., but sure, the Doctor could have let her know (strongly, even) that he didn't approve; but she had a point, he was unconscious for most of it and it was her responsibility to deal with it.
That paved the way for the Master to take over, with countless pain and suffering. And he is reponsible for delivering mankind to Utopia to become the Toclafane... if I wasn't angry with him, I'd feel that it wasn't his fault, that he too was a victim. But as the story stands? I can't feel quite so forgiving.
I totally hold the Doctor responsible for the Master coming to power, etc. and yes, as the story stands, I don't forgive the Doctor for it.
Re: reply part 2b
Date: 2007-10-22 01:30 pm (UTC)As you can see, I do that all the time. They don't give us enough room, these people.
do you think it would have worked, if the P.M. had been male?
Why not? I recall someone explaining to me that this parallels a Real Life situation in British politics, but what I don't remember what PM they were talking about.
she had a point, he was unconscious for most of it and it was her responsibility to deal with it.
Yes. He had no right to interfere. If Sycorax can't assume authority over Earth people, then neither should Gallifreyans!
Re: reply part 2b
Date: 2007-10-24 03:03 am (UTC)As you can see, I do that all the time. They don't give us enough room, these people.
Heh, you've got that right, they sure don't!
do you think it would have worked, if the P.M. had been male?
Why not? I recall someone explaining to me that this parallels a Real Life situation in British politics, but what I don't remember what PM they were talking about.
Because women are judged far more on appearance than men, and there's still a lot of gender inequality, men still don't tend to regard women as fellow human beings. Anyway, it felt very sexist to me, and that if it had been a male P.M., it wouldn't have worked, the Doctor would have had to do more to topple him.
she had a point, he was unconscious for most of it and it was her responsibility to deal with it.
Yes. He had no right to interfere. If Sycorax can't assume authority over Earth people, then neither should Gallifreyans!
Yep.
Re: reply part 2b
Date: 2007-10-24 03:34 am (UTC)Harriet Jones, which makes it all the more improper and unkind. Playing
dirty. But the part that really makes me uncomfortable is that he did an
about face and turned on a friend - and that's a little like what
happened with Jack, too, though not as blatantly.