fajrdrako: ([Torchwood] - Captain Jack)
[personal profile] fajrdrako
Title: Companionship
Fandom: Torchwood/Doctor Who
Characters: Jack, Sarah Jane Smith
Challenge: Way back in May I accepted a challenge from [livejournal.com profile] neadods to write a 'first kiss' scene between Captain Jack Harkness and Sarah Jane Smith. I did not forget. I was not even slow to start working on it, as I loved the idea. But I wrote one scenario after another and discarded them as inadequate or unconvincing. It proved to be extraordinarily difficult. Here at last is a version I like enough to post.
Rating: G
Disclaimer: Not mine, no claims, all property of the BBC.
Notes: Spoilers for Doctor Who episode "The Last of the Time Lords", with a fleeting reference to "School Reunion". Cross-posted to galactic_conman and dwfiction.


Companionship

From the very beginning, Sarah Jane Smith did not trust Captain Jack Harkness. He'd come sailing out of nowhere, appearing on her doorstep with a smile full of promises and a mouth full of lies.

Clearly he knew some things about the Doctor. He'd met Rose, yes, that she could believe. He'd been on the TARDIS, obviously; his information was too good to have been acquired any other way. Beyond that, she believed nothing. There were too many things he didn't say, or couldn't, or wouldn't. He'd met the Doctor - that didn't necessarily make him any kind of a friend of the Doctor, least of all a friend of hers.

She did some research on him, and came up with an inescapable fact: there were no records of any American named Captain Jack Harkness being in the UK since 1941. He was false as a Titanian brisket, this Captain, and she intended to keep her eye on him.

His organization, Torchwood, was even worse. It seemed everyone with any actual power knew about Torchwood, but no one knew the important details. The whole institution looked like a powder keg. She had a good talk with UNIT; they were suspicious of Torchwood, too. "Weaponry no one should have," they said, and "too much power, too little accountability". It seems Queen Victoria set up Torchwood under suspicious circumstances, to guard the world against alien threats in general and the Doctor in particular.

This was an expose waiting to be written, even if it was another article that should never see the light of day. Since Torchwood under Harkness seemed to pose no immediate threat, and the rest had disappeared with the Battle of Canary Wharf, she let it go for the sake of more immediate matters. When Captain Jack again turned up on her doorstep, she told him to go away and not come back.

One day, more than a year after the Battle of Canary Wharf, he broke the silence. She received a telephone call from Captain Jack Harkness.

"I've seen him," he said, without preamble. "I have news. Do you want to hear?"

There was only one person he could be talking about. She shouldn't listen. It might be a lie. But she'd had no word for so very long, not since the Krillitanes had invaded that school. She said, "Very well. Come to my place."

"On my way," he said, and disconnected. It was probably literally true: he no doubt rang her from his car. She put the kettle on for tea, and tried not to pace in anticipation. Luke was off somewhere with Maria, and she was glad - she wasn't sure how to explain Captain Jack to Luke. She wouldn't lie about him, of course, she didn't lie to Luke. But she didn't much want to talk about the mysterious Captain, either.

When Jack tapped on her door twenty minutes later, Sarah Jane had already finished half of her own cup of tea. His smile was as she remembered. She ignored it. "Come in," she said. "Care for some tea?" She hoped she managed to sound sufficiently casual. Friendly but not gullible. Businesslike.

"I'd rather a glass of water," he said, and she got it for him. They sat in her living room, with Jack in the large, comfortable chair, while she sat on the sofa. He said, "The TARDIS came to Cardiff to refuel. I hitched a ride. On the outside."

As he continued, she saw how absurd it was, like all his stories. A severed hand, as some sort of Doctor alert? Riding the time vortex hanging onto the outside the of TARDIS - what was he, Spider-Man? Going to the end of time? Searching for Utopia? Well, that all sounded like the Doctor, right enough, he was always into wild extremes, and seemed to be more so inclined as time went on. Not that time ever just 'went on' for the Doctor.

Captain Jack's story got more and more outrageous. Meeting another Time Lord at the end of time, one who'd lost his memory, who turned out to be a friend of the Doctor, but insane and power-hungry. Harold Saxon and Archangel. Toclafanes and warfare. A year that never was, of imprisonment, enslavement and resistance. Martha Jones, saviour of mankind. Deceptions, tricks of the mind, and psychic magic.

Sarah Jane listened to him without interruption. "Quite a story," she said, mildly, when he stopped.

"Yes."

"If I didn't know him, I wouldn't believe any of it."

"But you know him."

"I was looking into the disappearance of Harold Saxon."

"Oh?"

"And the way he popped up a couple of years ago. He was almost as mysterious as you."

Jack smiled at that. "No one is as mysterious as me."

"...But your ego is bigger."

"Not just my ego," he murmured, but she pretended not to have heard him.

She tried to picture the scene he described. The gunshot, the woman in red. The Doctor in tears. "He loved him?"

"The Master was the only other living Time Lord. The Doctor wanted to save him. It was his last chance... He couldn't save the others, back in the Time War. He thought he could maybe save this one. Just this one."

"Chivalrous nonsense," she snapped, and found herself on the verge of tears herself.

"Not nonsense. It's what he is. It's why we love him."

She looked at him quizzically. "We?"

"You. Me. Rose. Martha, too. How could we not?"

Jack was a con man, an actor. She knew that. But looking at him now, she believed that he knew the Doctor, believed that he loved him, that the Doctor had touched him in the same way he had her, and triggered a soul-deep change. Some people, after meeting the Doctor, would never be the same again.

Jack reached over and took her hand, squeezing it.

"How could we not?" she echoed. "I wish... How he must be hurting. I wish we could help."

"He'll find us if he needs us," said Jack. He kissed her hand, comforting her. Then he kissed it again.

She looked at him suspiciously, though didn't pull her hand away. "Jack Harkness. Are you coming on to me?"

He did not let go of her hand, which he had lifted to his lips. She could feel his warm breath against her knuckles as he held it there. Without moving his lips away from her skin, he lifted an eyebrow and said quizzically, as if it were another question rather than an answer, "Yes?"

She pulled her hand away quickly, and tried not to wish she hadn't. "Idiot man. I'm too old for flirtation."

He laughed - not at her, but in a warm sort of way that made even the air around him feel good. "Sarah Jane Smith, how old are you? Fifty at most? I have a century on you, and I'm not too old for flirtation. We both know someone pushing a thousand. Doesn't he make you feel young?"

"I miss him," she said bluntly. She felt like crying again. She was the idiot, a weepy old fool. She was usually more careful than this. But Jack's news about the Doctor had unsettled her, and Jack himself.... She realized how badly she had misjudged him before, and was furious with herself for it. He had needed her friendship, and she had coldly withheld it. Had she turned into such a suspicious old curmudgeon that she didn't know a friend when she met one?

"I miss him, too," said Jack gently. "Every day. Always. But it makes life worth living, you know? He's out there, doing his thing. And one day he'll return." He stood. So did she. He pulled her into his arms as if it was the most natural thing in the world, and Sarah Jane let herself accept it. He was a link to the Doctor. A link to her past and the planet's future, even if he and she hadn't shared that time together. A link to a world out there of planets and aliens and adventures and dangers and doing things that must be done.

He had a very comforting hug.

She said, "What's this about you being more than a hundred years old?"

"A hundred and fifty. But looking good, don't you think?"

"Are you human?"

"Completely."

"Then how...?"

He kissed her, lightly, on the lips. "It's a long story. It involves the fifty-first century, and the Time Agency... or maybe the year 200,100 and a Game Station... or maybe a girl hanging from a barrage balloon in the Blitz. Tell you what. Let's order Chinese and I'll tell you the story of Captain Jack Harkness and how he became immortal."

"Immortal?"

"And hungry! Have a heart. I drove all the way from Cardiff and I haven't had any lunch."

"There's a really good Chinese place just around the corner. I'll call them - Luke loves it."

"Luke?"

"I can tell you a story or two as well, Captain. Did you know I'm a mother now?"

He sat, laughing. "You're full of surprises."

"It comes with the territory. Egg rolls, do you think?"

"Definitely egg rolls," agreed Jack.

- end -


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Date: 2007-10-19 09:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donutsweeper.livejournal.com
Moffat's original story for 'Blink' is still up on the BBC website here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/episodes/2007/blink_annual.shtml

I'm still amazed that Moffat was able to create SUCH a detailed, well rounded character for Jack. Utterly amazing. And of course, picking JB to play him was brilliant on RTD's part.

Date: 2007-10-19 09:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I loved Ten almost as much as Jack did up until "The Last of the Time Lords". Then I was indignant. The difference between Nine's interaction with Jack (especially in "The Parting of the Ways") and Ten's is startling. Nine mentoring Jack seemed the way it should be. Ten mentoring Jack - and scolding him - looked officious and unfair, especially when Jack was in the right and the Doctor jumping to the wrong conclusions, as in the matter of Torchwood. Or with the Doctor thinking Jack was 'wrong' and to be avoided (regardless of circumstances), and then not even questioning ore recognizing his prejudice in the matter. That looks perilously close to 'unkind' or 'stupid'.

I would have forgiven all if there had been a kind word, or a hug, or a 'thank you' at the end. Instead the Doctor dismantles the Vortex Manipulator and we get the Face of Boe joke. Erck. I'm still looking for resolution there.

And here I'd foolishly thought Russell T. Davies liked the Jack/Ten relationship as much as I did.

Date: 2007-10-19 09:42 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
The sea-anemone scenario works well, I think.

Date: 2007-10-19 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donutsweeper.livejournal.com
Nine and Jack seemed almost like colleagues, working on the TARDIS together, joshing and joking about. Jack knew what Nine was planning for the Daleks and that it pretty much meant his death and he didn't care. Then Ten runs and abandons Jack without so much of a 'by your leave' and doesn't even apologize when given the opportunity ("Did I? Busy life, moved on")

It just... errrr... no words can begin to explain how much Ten annoyed my by the way he treated Jack in S3. The man died for you, over and over, have some respect!

Date: 2007-10-19 10:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Especially with the floating tentacally bits on the side of his head.

Date: 2007-10-19 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
SUCH a detailed, well rounded character for Jack.

Yes. Other writers design an intergalactic con man and he turns out to be shallow and superficial. Moffat does it, and Jack is complex and interesting and heroic - and still an intergalactic con man, and a good man, too. Heroic enough to warrant his own TV show and a return to Doctor Who. Very impressive.

of course, picking JB to play him was brilliant on RTD's part.

It seems to be one of those rare cases of utterly perfect casing. You'd think Captain Jack had just stepped out of his Chula warship and said to them, "Here I am."

Date: 2007-10-19 10:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donutsweeper.livejournal.com
It's amazing because Jack seems (originally) to be shallow, superficial, cowardly.. but then is shown to be anything BUT. Utterly amazing.

Date: 2007-10-19 10:16 pm (UTC)

Date: 2007-10-19 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I love that; the way we are led to expect one thing from a character, and then are given something different, and better. Someone more fascinating than one would dare to hope, and not written to formula.

I also love the way fans from the age of 4 to 104 can relate to him and enjoy him.

Of cousre Jack turns out to be anything but "shallow, superficial, cowardly" - but I think he still has a fear that he is those things, and has to struggle to meet his own standards - which are, of course, his own interioralization of what he thinks the Doctor is, the hero he wants to be.


Date: 2007-10-19 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donutsweeper.livejournal.com
excellent point- Jack saw himself as a coward (or having succumbed to his cowardly nature) until the Doctor stepped in and put him back on the right path. So, for him, the Doctor will always be up on a pedestal for that.

Date: 2007-10-19 10:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Exactly. Besides being in love (and unable therefore to judge the Doctor impartially), Jack sees him as a role model and hero. Something he aspires to be. It's important to Jack to have that pedestal, that goal, and that sense of 'an identity to strive for'.

This might be at least partly because, though he has a strong sense of self, he has made himself out of the identities of other people, living one pretense after another. He finds heroes and makes himself like them.

Date: 2007-10-19 10:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donutsweeper.livejournal.com
Jack sees him as a role model and hero. Something he aspires to be.

Couse, would be nice if the Doctor treated him a little less like dirt though in response.

But this could also explain why he was so taken with the real Captain Jack Harkness. He's still living off the identites of others.

Date: 2007-10-19 10:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
would be nice if the Doctor treated him a little less like dirt though in response.

I can't help thinking that Nine would have recognized what Jack was doing, and have been flattered, and have been kind about it. But maybe I am rationalizing the discrepancy by separating the two incarnations of the Doctor.

this could also explain why he was so taken with the real Captain Jack Harkness. He's still living off the identites of others.

Yes. It's the way Jack operates. Admiration and emulation. He adopted the name and style of Captain Jack Harkness, and some of his moral code, but his live and his goals are much more in line with those of the Doctor: saving the world, helping people, using his unusual knowledge to protect the Earth.

Date: 2007-10-19 11:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] donutsweeper.livejournal.com
I really wish we could have seen more Nine and Jack. Nine had a wistful loneliness about him, I think he would have appreciated the man Jack had become and recognized the isolation Jack's condition caused.

using his unusual knowledge to protect the Earth


One of these days we will find out just why "the 21st century is when everything changes." and why it is we really have to be ready!

Date: 2007-10-20 12:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I love it! Can't get enough of these two together.

Date: 2007-10-20 05:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mickeyk.livejournal.com
Love the story and I'd love to see more Sarah Jane and Jack (she needs and deserves a fun, flirty Jack in her life *grin*). I'm glad you kept working on the concept until you got a story you like. It works for me, Sarah Jane being very suspicious of Jack and holding him at arm's length, and then becoming much more warm towards him by the end.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in to agree with you (mostly) both. I freaking hate the FoB "revelation", the Doctor's high-handedness (makes me really, really wish I hadn't seen that footage on youtube.com back in Feb./March, because I totally read it wrong... I thought the Doctor was giving Jack a way to keep in touch, not breaking the Vortex Manipulator, taking away the time travel and teleportation capabilities again), his lack of concern and compassion for Jack (Jack's deaths in front of the Doctor, and no reaction, didn't try to make Jack's coming back to life more comfortable), and yes, his lack of faith in Jack, which I think Jack more than earned (trust and faith on the Doctor's part) when Jack literally died for the Doctor.

RTD has killed my love for Doctor Who, with that one episode (which I prefer to refer to as The Episode That Never Was). I really don't care if I see the Christmas special this year, or next year's episodes (although I probably will, because I want to see Felicity Kendal in an episode). I won't be watching them as soon as I can, after watching them.

I really wonder if RTD likes/enjoys writing Jack, the way Jack was sidelined in the finale, and the way the Doctor treats him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if RTD just wanted Jack to be Muscle Man in the 1st series finale, and didn't care about ever using the character again, after that, and just used Jack to get his show, Torchwood on the air, that the BBC would be interested in having it with a popular character. Maybe the Beeb weren't/wouldn't have been, without Jack?

I'm so ticked off with the Doctor currently that I wouldn't have completely forgiven him if he'd treated Jack decently, but I would have been more happy with him and I'd be looking forward more than I am (ie., not at all, right now) to see more DW. I think that the show has done a real disservice to all of the companions since it came back - Rose became incredibly dislikeable with 10, with their little clique attitude and I was really glad to get rid of her; Martha was made to feel like she couldn't possibly live up to the awesomeness of Rose (and oh lord did I ever get tired of all the Rose references in the 3rd series!); Jack, the horrible way 10 treated him; Mickey, how Rose and 10 treated him, and even Adam, the explanation was cut from the episode, why he needed and wanted the information from the future.

Damn, I should stop venting about that episode.

Date: 2007-10-20 06:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mickeyk.livejournal.com
Quibble, doesn't Sarah Jane know who the Master is (Time Lord, adversary of the Doctor) from "The Five Doctors" (I actually don't remember if there was a scene of 3 and Sarah Jane and the Doctor and the Master interacting while she watched)?

Other than that though, I love this story, and how Sarah Jane changes her opinion of Jack, and I adore Jack in this. Love that Jack calls her as he's on his way, and this exchange:


"And the way he popped up a couple of years ago. He was almost as mysterious as you."

Jack smiled at that. "No one is as mysterious as me."

"...But your ego is bigger."

"Not just my ego," he murmured, but she pretended not to have heard him.

*snicker!*

I really like that you've done justice to both characters, and I can hear them talking in my head, as I read your story. Per [livejournal.com profile] donutsweeper's suggestion, I'd love to see them have some kind of story with K-9 (and have Jack geek out about K-9). Another possibility could be that Owen, Tosh, Ianto and Gwen become aware of, and concerned about, Luke so Jack has to do some fancy footwork and Sarah Jane could distrust him at times, as Jack tries to protect Luke from Torchwood's scrutiny.

I also loved Jack flirting with Sarah Jane, and taking a few years away, from both of them.

I'm really glad that you kept on working on a Jack and Sarah Jane fic, until you got this, it's fabulous.

reply part 1

Date: 2007-10-20 02:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
she needs and deserves a fun, flirty Jack in her life *grin*

It can only be a good thing.

It works for me, Sarah Jane being very suspicious of Jack and holding him at arm's length, and then becoming much more warm towards him by the end.

I like the pattern because it's the same thing that happened beween Jack and the Doctor. The Doctor saw right through Jack's lies, didn't trust him an inch, and didn't let him get away with the deceptions. Jack then proved himself to be worthy of friendship and love, and capable of heroism. I was trying to echo that change in attitude. (Not consciously; this is something I see now that it's finished.)

Rose, of course, doesn't mind a handsome, flirty rogue, even if she knows he's a liar, and especially if he's saved her life. So their relationship had an entirely different pattern.

he Doctor's high-handedness (makes me really, really wish I hadn't seen that footage on youtube.com back in Feb./March, because I totally read it wrong... I thought the Doctor was giving Jack a way to keep in touch

Me too. I was seeing what I expect to see, and what I wanted to see. Aaargh!

his lack of concern and compassion for Jack (Jack's deaths in front of the Doctor, and no reaction, didn't try to make Jack's coming back to life more comfortable

Martha showed overt concern, but the Doctor was entirely focussed on the Master.

his lack of faith in Jack, which I think Jack more than earned (trust and faith on the Doctor's part) when Jack literally died for the Doctor.

Agreed.

which I prefer to refer to as The Episode That Never Was

Oh - perfect!

I really don't care if I see the Christmas special this year, or next year's episodes (although I probably will, because I want to see Felicity Kendal in an episode).

There was a time after "The Last of the Time Lords" first aired that I almost decided to stop watching. But I don't like to judge anything in advance, and though my feelings for Ten aren't now what they were, there is enough that I love about the show to go on watching. Including the possibility of a resolution of the rift between the Doctor and Jack - a change of heart on the Doctor's part. My initial reaction was to feel more let down by RTD than by the Doctor: to wail, "I thought you were on our side!" when it seems clear now that RTD was not.

But I can't deny that my attitude to Ten has changed a lot. (I carefully don't say "The Doctor" because this does not affect my view of Nine.)

Who is Felicity Kendall?

reply part 2

Date: 2007-10-20 02:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I really wonder if RTD likes/enjoys writing Jack, the way Jack was sidelined in the finale, and the way the Doctor treats him.

It might explain the way Jack was somewhat sidelined in some of the Torchwood episodes. I don't mean "Random Shoes" (though I don't quite understand the need for episodes that exclude the lead role). My interpretation in general has been that RTD is burning out somewhat, and doesn't see it - that he's gone from making outrageously sensationalist stories that are also full of subtle characterization, philosophical depth and carefully orchestrated plotlines, to simply producing stories that are outrageously sensationalist. Period. In other words, he's running out of ideas, and the ideas he has aren't shining as brightly as they did.

In any case, Jack was shafted. I thought RTD just wasn't particularly interested in him here - he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.

So why did Adam need and want the information from the future? Was it not just greed?

Damn, I should stop venting about that episode.

I'm glad you said something here. I'm happy to have people to talk to about this, because I share those concerns, even if I'm managed to get to a more philosphical attitude about it, rather than the sense of shock I felt right after seeing "The Last of the Time Lords". Most fans don't seem to have noticed or cared about these concerns, and it's something I feel the need to discuss in order to come to terms with it.

I find all sorts of ways to reinterpret things that make me feel better, but I can't quite find a way that redeems the Doctor.

In other discussions, we were saying that Nine seemed to draw people to him, while Ten thrusts them away.

One of the strong themes I got from series 1 was that however crusty he may be, the Doctor loves Earth and the people of Earth, both individually (sometimes) and collectively. I'm not so sure that's still true, with Ten. Or that it's still demonstrably true.

Date: 2007-10-20 03:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Hmm. I think my thought was that though Sarah Jane knew who the Master was, she didn't know he was Harold Saxon, and of course Jack didn't know what she knew about any of it and was just relating events as he saw them. I was guessing that she probably knew about the destruction of the Time Lords in the Time War (though I know of nothing that canonically says she knows) but not about the Master's survival or the Doctor's role in the Time War.

I haven't seen "The Five Doctors" or any of the old Sarah Jane episodes so I'm perfectly capable of making all sorts of mistakes!

*snicker!*

Glad you liked that. (Bad Jack. Bad!)

I can hear them talking in my head, as I read your story.

I'm so glad!

I'd love to see them have some kind of story with K-9 (and have Jack geek out about K-9)

He would, too. An overaged boy and his dog. Perfect.

I like the idea of a story built around Luke. Sarah Jane's group could be investigating something dangerous, and Torchwood is investigating the same thing, and they don't know who's involved in what, or why. I really like the idea of Jack protecting Luke - as he would.




Re: reply part 1

Date: 2007-10-20 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mickeyk.livejournal.com
Heh, a fun, flirty Jack in anyone's life could only be a good thing!

The pattern being the same for Sarah Jane as it was for the Doctor reinforces my belief that she's supposed to be Doctor Mark III (Jack is Mark II), what with her sonic lipstick. Jack immediately inherits the tenth Doctor's lack of compassion and his shoutyness, in TW, thus he's Mark II. I can't imagine Jack in TW reacting the way he did in "Utopia" towards the news of Chantho's dead conglomeration... in TW, I think he'd've had the same reaction as the Doctor, ('I knew it! Didn't I say conglomeration?' as opposed to 'You're supposed to say you're sorry, Doctor'). Sarah Jane and Jack should be themselves, not imitations of the Doctor.

Me too. I was seeing what I expect to see, and what I wanted to see. Aaargh!

Me too. *sigh* Me too. :~( My rant about The Episode That Never Was is still the top entry at my lj, if you want to read it/comment.

Martha showed overt concern, but the Doctor was entirely focussed on the Master.

I was thinking of "Utopia" -- I can fanwank the Doctor's coldness when he sees Jack, dead on the ground (feeling the prejudice), but when Jack does the power boost and the electricity courses through him and he dies? And Martha starts CPR and the Doctor stops her, gets her to stand beside himself instead of with Jack? That really pissed me off. The Master hadn't even been revealed yet, the Doctor has decided he has just the man for Yana's radiation room problem... and doesn't do a damn thing to make Jack's coming back to life any more comfortable. Bastard.

I'm glad you like how I refer to the so-called finale. :)

I actually had decided to stop watching after the finale, but a friend is going to keep watching, to see if it gets any better, and then I saw there'd be an actor or two I wanted to see.

Felicity K. is an English actor who I've seen in a few Britcoms (The Mistress, Solo very famous for The Good Life aka Good Neighbours, and recently was in a mystery show called Rosemary and Thyme.

The other reason I'm going to tune in is to see if Donna resists the Doctor's spell somehow, (doesn't fall in love with him) and smacks his ego down to size, only slightly bigger than himself, instead of the size of the universe. I'd be happy if she gives him lots of smackdowns and he becomes more likeable.

I still like 9, but yes, 10 is approaching incredibly unlikeable, which is a shame. It took me two times through all the Tom Baker episodes, before I finally started liking his Doctor (and he was my first! Cripes, has it really been almost 26 years since I started watching?!? Eep!). I don't see me wanting to rewatch most of DT's episodes, because Ten and Rose annoyed me, and hello? Martha enduring sexism and racism for a month or two (or however long it was) in "Human Nature"/"Family of Blood", getting a job and supporting herself and Ten in "Blink" weren't enough to prove she's a worthy Companion? Pshaw! and Pfffffffttt! Apparently, even dying for the Doctor isn't enough (see Jack).

Re: reply part 2

Date: 2007-10-20 04:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mickeyk.livejournal.com
It might explain the way Jack was somewhat sidelined in some of the Torchwood episodes. I don't mean "Random Shoes" (though I don't quite understand the need for episodes that exclude the lead role). My interpretation in general has been that RTD is burning out somewhat, and doesn't see it - that he's gone from making outrageously sensationalist stories that are also full of subtle characterization, philosophical depth and carefully orchestrated plotlines, to simply producing stories that are outrageously sensationalist. Period. In other words, he's running out of ideas, and the ideas he has aren't shining as brightly as they did.

Heh, or as a friend refers to it, "Random Shit". Doesn't RTD have minimal involvement with TW, and it's more Julie Gardner's and Chris Chibnall's baby? And considering the latter's 1st series episodes, doesn't that thought just horrify you and make you quake in your figurative boots? I remember reading on TWoP the speculation that RTD had rewritten "They Keep Killing Suzie" (although it's credited to two other people) and the awkwardness of the other glove/Jack and Ianto and the stopwatch certainly reminds me of the awkwardness of Jack saying bye/FoB b.s.

I believe [livejournal.com profile] crabby_lionness (she's commented on this entry, if I got her name wrong) did a post on her lj, about the screen time of Jack, Gwen, etc., and Gwen got either half an hour or forty-five minutes (maybe an hour) more than Jack... and that's just freaking WRONG! I, personally, tuned in for The Captain Jack Harkness spin-off, not "The Gwen Bloody Cooper and Owen Fucking Harper Show, featuring Captain Jack Harkness Show".

In any case, Jack was shafted. I thought RTD just wasn't particularly interested in him here - he was so into the story of The Master that the other characters didn't matter.

Yep. Not even the Doctor. *sigh* Where were the crackling scenes between the Doctor and the Master? Another thing that bugged me was how the Master has been willing to do anything to stay alive... so where was the attempt to take over Jack's immortal body? So, so, so, so, so many missed opportunities!

I'm glad you said something here. I'm happy to have people to talk to about this, because I share those concerns, even if I'm managed to get to a more philosphical attitude about it, rather than the sense of shock I felt right after seeing "The Last of the Time Lords". Most fans don't seem to have noticed or cared about these concerns, and it's something I feel the need to discuss in order to come to terms with it.

Thank you. :) I was afraid you wouldn't like further hijacking of the thread. *grin*

I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but I ain't rewatching it! I'm getting the DVD to hear the commentary for that ep, and to see the deleted scenes. I'll rewatch "Utopia" probably, and maybe "The Sound of Drums", at least the scenes with Jack.

I find all sorts of ways to reinterpret things that make me feel better, but I can't quite find a way that redeems the Doctor.

I bet that's because RTD is in charge. I hope DT will be around when someone else is in charge of the show, to see if Ten becomes more likeable, more compassionate. That's another bitter disappointment, I wanted the Doctor to get more compassion (or at least reawaken his compassion) when he dealt with Jack.

One of the strong themes I got from series 1 was that however crusty he may be, the Doctor loves Earth and the people of Earth, both individually (sometimes) and collectively. I'm not so sure that's still true, with Ten. Or that it's still demonstrably true.

I agree. Poor Harriet Jones. :~(

Date: 2007-10-20 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mickeyk.livejournal.com
I haven't seen "The Five Doctors" or any of the old Sarah Jane episodes so I'm perfectly capable of making all sorts of mistakes!

Ah, okay. Well, you'd better get cracking, and catch up on the old series! *grin*

Glad you liked that. (Bad Jack. Bad!)

Heh, when Jack's good, he's very, very good, but when he's bad, he's better. ;)

He would, too. An overaged boy and his dog. Perfect.

*bows* Thank you. :) I bet Jack would reprogram K-9 though, to say Captain instead of Master... after The Year That Wasn't. *shudder*

I like the idea of a story built around Luke. Sarah Jane's group could be investigating something dangerous, and Torchwood is investigating the same thing, and they don't know who's involved in what, or why. I really like the idea of Jack protecting Luke - as he would.

Not only feel free to use it... but please do use it! I'd love to see what you'd come up with, for it. :)

Re: reply part 1

Date: 2007-10-20 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
The pattern being the same for Sarah Jane as it was for the Doctor reinforces my belief that she's supposed to be Doctor Mark III (Jack is Mark II), what with her sonic lipstick.

I would agree with that.

I can't imagine Jack in TW reacting the way he did in "Utopia" towards the news of Chantho's dead conglomeration...

I can, fairly easily. In TW Jack vacillates between depression and detatchment, and engagement and caring. It would depend which mode he was in. Or which mood.

Sarah Jane and Jack should be themselves, not imitations of the Doctor.

I agree, but I like the way Jack recreates himself and grows by emulating those he admires and loves. He did it with Captain Jack Harkness, stealing his name and identity and the clothing of his time, and then trying to be that kind of hero. (This before he had even met him and loved him.) He makes the Doctor his hero, and then recreates his life - particularly his goals and his morality, or the Doctor's morality as Jack sees it - in the image of the Doctor. Which is great, as long as it's morality I like, which on Jack's part, it has been. I like that.

And I don't want or expect Jack or the Doctor to be perfect. But I also don't want them to act in ways I find annoying, distressing, unlikeable or disgusting. They are, or ought to be, heroes.

I can fanwank the Doctor's coldness when he sees Jack, dead on the ground (feeling the prejudice), but when Jack does the power boost and the electricity courses through him and he dies? And Martha starts CPR and the Doctor stops her, gets her to stand beside himself instead of with Jack? That really pissed me off.

Yes. He seems to be deliberately unkind throughout that whole sequence. I didn't mind the first time I saw it; I was intrigued; wondering why he was so cold and unfeeling towards Jack, and enjoying the edged banter.

So we learn that it was prejudice - okay, I could accept that, and take his attitude as defensiveness: he's being cruel because he is fighting an impulse to be kind, becuase he has mixed and conflicted feelings. I like mixed and conflicted feelings - if they are resolved in a way I like. So I hoped and expected the Doctor would simply remember how he once loved Jack, and see Jack's accomplishments, and with a big hug and a smile rapport would and should be re-established.

Only it didn't happen that way.

And I could forgive it more if he'd shown love/affection for Martha, and I'm one of those fans who thinks he was leading her on and then pushing her away fairly constantly.

Jack seems to be able to forgive the Doctor anything, but I find it a little more difficult.

Thanks for explaining about Felicity Kendall. I haven't seen any of those shows. Will keep an eye open for her in future.

I don't care if the Doctor gets smacked down - I think I'd rather see him simply change for the better out of his own choice. Or show himself capable of some sort of love and caring and unselfish action.

getting a job and supporting herself and Ten in "Blink"

My thought at the time? "I hope he's sleeping her, because she sure doesn't seem to be getting much in return for her devotion!"

Apparently, even dying for the Doctor isn't enough (see Jack).

It doesn't seem to even earn him brownie points. In "The Parting of the Ways" it seemed right that Jack would put his life on the line because the Doctor was doing the same, and they had the same goal - to fight and stop the Daleks. But somehow the balance changed.

Re: reply part 1

Date: 2007-10-20 04:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mickeyk.livejournal.com
While I think of it... how freaking sad (or how would you phrase it, how incredible?) is it that in 40+ years since DW started... Jack shot into my Number One slot, for fave DW character, ever? Major kudos to John Barrowman and 1st series DW to make a five episode character my absolute fave, ever.

Oh, and Adam - apparently, his mother was really sick, cancer or something, so he was looking for a cure for her (I realized just now I'd forgotten to mention how Adam was screwed over, in his two episodes), so it wasn't just money he wanted. I'll have to listen to the commentary for those episodes, though, and to the non-JB commentary but a Jack episode (and then listen to the other commentaries).

I can, fairly easily. In TW Jack vacillates between depression and detatchment, and engagement and caring. It would depend which mode he was in. Or which mood.

S1, I bet he'd be in detachment and depression mode. *sigh*

Jack seems to be able to forgive the Doctor anything, but I find it a little more difficult.

Ditto. Poor Jack, the Doctor is showing himself not to be worthy of Jack's admiration, respect, love. I'd like to see Jack find someone who is (male or female, but someone I like, too... so not Gwen).

Thanks for explaining about Felicity Kendall. I haven't seen any of those shows. Will keep an eye open for her in future.

You're welcome. She's also written an autobiography.

My thought at the time? "I hope he's sleeping her, because she sure doesn't seem to be getting much in return for her devotion!"

Sounds like Jack, doesn't it? And Rose, too, I suppose.

It doesn't seem to even earn him brownie points. In "The Parting of the Ways" it seemed right that Jack would put his life on the line because the Doctor was doing the same, and they had the same goal - to fight and stop the Daleks. But somehow the balance changed.

Yep. *sigh* And in the beginning of "The Empty Child", I can imagine Jack immediately taking off, he wouldn't risk his life.
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