fajrdrako: ([Heroes] - Peter)
[personal profile] fajrdrako


I spent most of the afternoon doing research in the National Library of Canada. I've been there before, but not for many years. I used to go when I was an undergraduate at Carleton University, and I remember they made me jump through hoops to get the authorization to go in. I was left thinking it was an elitist place that probably wouldn't let me in.

But, encouraged yesterday by [livejournal.com profile] maaseru and John, I went today and got a card without much hassle, using my passport as identification. I then spent time reading a book that has always fascinated me, L'Histoire de Guillaume le Maréchal. I have read it before, but really don't remember as much as I might; the only printed version, a three-volume set from 1891, is difficult to find, and is fragile. It is more than 19,000 lines of Anglo-Norman verse, and so is difficult to read quickly.

I knew the National Library had a copy, because I'd got it once on Interlibrary Loan through the Public Library. (But they wouldn't let me take it home. The nerve.) When I asked for it this morning the library expressed doubt. "We don't usually handle that kind of material," she said. "We're mandated to carry Canadian history, you know." I couldn't tell whether she was dissing my unpatriotic study of European history, or apologizing for the library's insufficiencies. I refrained from saying, "How chauvinistic of you." They did, of course, have the book.

Because it is fragile, I had to read it in room 25, wearing white gloves (which they provided), and use of pens is not allowed. Luckily, I'd put a good pencil into my bag this morning, somewhat by accident rather than good planning.

I luxuriated in the place. I'm used to the Ottawa Public Library - a good place, don't get me wrong, but it's crowded with books and people and the air conditioning seldom seems quite right and the librarians are always busy. In the National Library, there is a hush. The air conditioning is perfect - and that's important, since it was ([livejournal.com profile] maaseru tells me) 40-something degrees Celsius outdoors today, or 106o Fahrenheit. But in this cool, not-too-bright, not-to-dim room with its high ceilings and a view of the Ottawa River through its floor-to-ceilng windows with vertical blinds, I felt as if I was in an ivory tower. The table I was working at was maybe 10' by 15', and I had it all to myself. There was a space of about 10' between each table and the next, and no more than three or four people working in the whole huge room at any one time. Everything seemed fresh and clean and spacious and artistic.

I loved it. I worked until my eyes started to blur and my brain balked at understanding Anglo-Norman and the muscles of my pencil-wielding hand started to ache.

The good part? My card is valid for a whole year.

Makes me feel, if only temporarily, like the real scholar I want to be.

I took some pictures when I was leaving, just for the fun of it.

First,

The statue outside the National Library. It is called "The Secret Bench of Knowledge", and is by Toronto artist Lea Vivot.
Besides being a lovely statue, it has a delightful history.


~ ~ ~



A fountain in the garden to the left of the main doors.


~ ~ ~



"The Secret Bench of Knowledge" as seen from the garden,
with the entrance to the National Library to the left of the picture.
The person sitting on the bench is real, not part of the sculpture -
she was waiting for someone to pick her up.



Date: 2007-08-03 02:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Reposting due to a few egregious typos - sorry!

I love that book!

Egad, so do I! And you're the first other person I've met who has read it, though I've known people who have read parts of it. (And may have read the whole thing since I last discussed it with them, I don't know.) Yes, I was able to take it out from the library of King's College when I was studying there - that was wonderful. Much easier there than here.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a senior thesis? Is that a thesis you have to write to get a B.A.? Or does it mean something else? I thought 'senior' meant last year of high school in the U.S., but I would be surprised if they had you writing about an Anglo-Norman biographical poem in high school.

Once I found out that right after the Chanson de Roland, the most popular boy's names were Roland and Oliver, I was on a roll.

How wonderful! I believe I knew that already - an idea of infinite pleasure. I remember once noticing young males in northern Italy in the 14th century with names like "Arturo" and "Pandragone" because of the popularity of the Arthurian legends. I love it when that happens! Or even just tracing the history of names... the man I am researching, Aimery de Lusignan, was the son of a woman named Burgundia... and then he named his daughter Burgundia. It's such fun to see patterns like that.

I wonder if, in the mid-9th century or whenever it was, there were suddenly a bunch of kids named Beowulf and Grendel?

My thesis was on the feedback loop between secular literature and secular culture

Oh wow. It might be presumptuous of me to ask this, but may I read your thesis? It sounds fascinating. Was this in history or literature or both?

Chretien's Lancelot

I have never read Chretien and I really believe I should. He's smack in the middle of my time and consorted with people I am working on. I should read it soon. I am currently rereading the Lais of Marie de France.

William's life imitated art

It certainly did! He was practically sans peur et sans reproche, and made into the model of the preux chevalier. He's all the more endearing (I think) because sometimes his personal non-typical point of view appears in the text, or his sense of humour. I do like William - even though I've just been reading about him bitterly fighting the guys I'm researching. Have you read the book Georges Duby wrote about him?


Date: 2007-08-03 03:23 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
I've got the paperback of Chrétien's romances. The editor's a former St As prof of French, and takes the view that Le Chevalier de la Charette (the Lancelot story) is a spoof. Helen Nicholson relates his Grail romance (the first on the subject) to Outremer politics, and says it's an allegory of Philip of Flander's abortive career in Outremer. The maimed king is, of course, Baldwin IV.

Date: 2007-08-03 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Helen Nicholson relates his Grail romance (the first on the subject) to Outremer politics, and says it's an allegory of Philip of Flander's abortive career in Outremer.

Oh, how cool!

Is there an edition you'd recommend? is the paperback in English or French?

Date: 2007-08-03 08:57 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
The paperback's in English: it's the D D R Owen translation (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&r=1&EAN=9780460873895).
Helen's comments on Perceval are here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nigel.nicholson/hn/CrusadeFAQs/T_and_G feed.html): she talks about the political allegory in the Grail legends.

Date: 2007-08-03 09:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Thank you!

I'm about to go for a walk (despite the heat) and if I go by a second hand bookstore - i.e., if I get that far - I'll see if they have it. Hard to guess the odds.

Date: 2007-08-03 09:27 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
You can certainly get it online.

Date: 2007-08-04 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
So I see. Even Gutenberg has it. I'd rather read hard copy, though; I've ordered it from the library.

Date: 2007-08-04 01:31 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
I meant ordering it from a shop online. The Gutenberg and other online versions will be from old translations. Not always good.

Date: 2007-08-04 03:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
The library has the D.D.R. Owen version, which is what I want. So it's the best of all worlds.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-04 03:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-08-03 09:06 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
My boy is called after 2 of his uncles (his mother's half-brother, the King of Germany, and her full brother, the Bishop of Passau). I suspect his parents had older children that died, as (given the family pattern of the eldest being named for the paternal grandfather) the eldest should have been a Renier, not a William (the father's name). As it was, the name Renier was used for the youngest boy, born c. 1162.

Date: 2007-08-03 09:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Names did get switched and reused - which is one of the reasons it has been difficult to sort out the Hughs and Geoffreys of the Lusignan family. I love looking at the patterns, though.

Date: 2007-08-03 09:29 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
As the parents married c. 1133, one would expect more older ones. Neither William nor Conrad seem to have been born pre-1140-ish, given that no-one mentions them until the late '50s-early '60s at the earliest.

Date: 2007-08-04 12:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Funny, I have the same pattern in the Lusignan family where, as far as I could see, at least two of the Lusignan women waited a decade (or more) after marriage to have children. Was this an infertility problem? Or are the marriage dates wrong? Or did they have some sort of medieval birth control? I find it somewhat perplexing.

Date: 2007-08-04 01:29 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
Certainly not birth control. (The only reliable mediæval method I know was called 'going on crusade'!)
It's most likely that there were miscarriages or children who died in infancy. Another possibility is that some of the marriage contracts were made when the brides were children.

Date: 2007-08-04 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
The only reliable mediæval method I know was called 'going on crusade'!

LOL!

Another possibility is that some of the marriage contracts were made when the brides were children.

Yes, that makes sense, too. Married at 8 or so - it would make sense for child-bearing not to begin for a decade or more. Thank you, that's a very plausible explanation: it also means, quite sensibly, that if they were married in, say, 1120, they weren't necessarily 20 years old and therefore weren't still bearing children late in their 40s (which looks odd); they could have been a good decade younger.

Moreover, given the uncertainties and warfares of their time, early marriage or betrothal makes good sense too, for military, political, and familiar alliances. I was just reading the perfect example of this in Guillaume le Marechale where a dispute was settled when Earl Patrick's sister Sibile (another Sybilla!) married William's father as part of the political settlement. He age of course is not mentioned, but it's hardly relevant: the families were, as the writer assures us, on good terms from then on.

Obviously this can backfire - we both know a bunch of bad marriages where the situation was either worsened or just not helped by the husband's treatment of the bride. (I'm thinking here of the example of Baldwin I and Adelaide of Sicily, which left the Sicilians resentful for numerous reasons. There are of course other examples.)

Date: 2007-08-04 04:34 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
LOL!

I can't help but think that the Second Crusade (the 'big family excursion') was organised by all the women getting their heads together so they could have some respite from child-bearing.

Yes, that makes sense, too. Married at 8 or so - it would make sense for child-bearing not to begin for a decade or more. Thank you, that's a very plausible explanation: it also means, quite sensibly, that if they were married in, say, 1120, they weren't necessarily 20 years old and therefore weren't still bearing children late in their 40s (which looks odd); they could have been a good decade younger.

Although a lot of them clearly were bearing children well into their late 40s (as were some of my 19C ancestresses: my youngest great-grand-uncle was born when his Mum was about 46, in the early 1830s). Conrad's parents were both younger children of his grandmothers' second marriages: Gisela and Jutte must have been well over 40 at the time.

I'm thinking here of the example of Baldwin I and Adelaide of Sicily, which left the Sicilians resentful for numerous reasons.

Adelaide was dowager Queen of Sicily. By birth she was Adelaide of Savona/del Vasto, another branch of the Aleramici. She's some sort of cousin of the Montferrats.

Date: 2007-08-04 05:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
the Second Crusade ... was organised by all the women getting their heads together so they could have some respite from child-bearing.

Not to mention getting the men out from underfoot all the time. Running the households must have been somewhat easier without the menfolk interfering.

a lot of them clearly were bearing children well into their late 40s

Yes, but I was puzzling over the demographics and things make more sense when you postulate early marriages for at least some of them. If only we had more birth dates of women.

She's some sort of cousin of the Montferrats.

I'm tempted to say, "Wasn't everyone?" Very cool!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-04 06:06 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2007-08-03 09:32 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
Funny how some people (like William, or indeed Richard) get all the long-term hype, and others, after a brief flowering of songs about them, get chucked on the scrapheap…

Date: 2007-08-04 12:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I consider it my mission in life to do something about this.

Date: 2007-08-04 01:48 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
Ditto!
It just appalls me how Conrad has been treated in particular.

Date: 2007-08-04 02:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
He's a particularly blatant example, but at the moment I am tempted to go an a wild rant about how the Lusignans have been treated by historians.

Date: 2007-08-04 03:17 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
Mind, they do at least get to be stars of their own kingdom for a few centuries!

Date: 2007-08-04 03:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Yes, which isn't bad. So I can look on the bad press in which they were evil brigands as being the place from which they started. I do note that the later you get in history, the more respectable they become as the ruling dynasty of Cyprus.

And really, the 'felon' stage where I have currently been reading about them in Guillaume le Marchal, that isn't even just their beginnings, they already had a castle and lands and a certain prestige, and the military clout to take on kings (like Louis) and emperors (like Henri Plantagenet) - just not enough clout to win against them!

Date: 2007-08-04 04:37 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
and the military clout to take on kings (like Louis) and emperors (like Henri Plantagenet) - just not enough clout to win against them!

I think the moral of the story is, don't ruffle the feathers of the big boys… Keep your head down, and go for the pickings after they've beaten someone else up.

Date: 2007-08-04 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I think the moral of the story is, don't ruffle the feathers of the big boys…

They probably thought it was the only game in town! But yes, it's quite a challenge to take on the Planatagenets at their height - no wonder a bunch of them decamped to Outremer - fighting Turks must have seemed so much simpler.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-04 06:07 pm (UTC) - Expand

Profile

fajrdrako: (Default)
fajrdrako

October 2023

S M T W T F S
1234567
891011121314
151617181920 21
22 232425262728
293031    

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Jul. 6th, 2025 08:52 pm
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios