Five misunderstood characters...

[fajrdrako]

From fannish5: Aug 29, 2008 - Name 5 characters you think are often misunderstood by fans.

1. Torchwood - Captain Jack Harkness. As with all the Torchwood characters, fan characterization puts him all over the map - which is, of course, fair enough, but I have a very strong notion of what his character is and I find the variances jarring, especially when Jack is depicted as cruel or uncaring. I see Jack as very much of a "what you see is what you get" kind of character. By nature, a sweet, loving man with a sense of mischief and and curiosity about other people; forced by war and circumstances into the military when young, which made him develop an inner toughness and pragmatism as necessary. He cares very much about others, and feels protective about the world. He tries endlessly to make reparation for the time he almost destroyed humanity in "The Doctor Dances", and to make the Doctor proud of him.
   
   
2. Doctor Who - The Doctor. Here I think we simply have a difference of interpretation, depending on the fan, and a divergence between those who became fans of the new Doctors (Nine and Ten) and those who came to know and love the Doctor from earlier periods, especially those who did so in childhood. I see the Doctor as much less alien, psychologically and physiologically, than many do: it's his humanity that appeals, not his alienness.
   
   And he's very sexy. Flirty, even, in all the wrong ways.
   
   
3. Batman - Batman or Bruce Wayne. I have heard many fans say that Batman is insane - and I couldn't disagree more. I interpret Batman as the sane man in the insane world, who takes on himself the dangers he does not want other to undergo because he feels protective of his city. He is obsessive because he needs to be, but it's the obsession of genius, not of madness.
   
   
4. The Lymond Chronicles by Dorothy Dunnett - Francis Crawford of Lymond. There are fans who love and appreciate Lymond. There are other fans (and readers who do not become fans) who see him as petty, whining, self-obsessed, rude, unkind, and arrogant. Except for the last point, they are totally wrong.
   
   
5. Shakespeare - Hamlet. It never would have occurred to me to include the Prince of Denmark in this list, except that over the last few years I've met a number of people who don't like the man for a litany of reasons - all of which I think are a misunderstanding of the character. Hamlet is the perfect gothic hero: dark, romantic, funny, insightful, intelligent, judicious, and caring.
   

Comments

[isagel.livejournal.com]

Say, if a girl were to start reading the Lymond Chronicles, what's the title of the book she should start with? (What can I say? You're getting to me.)

Actually, while I'm at it, I could ask the same question for the Vorkosigan books, which I believe you also like?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

if a girl were to start reading the Lymond Chronicles, what's the title of the book she should start with?

The Game of Kings (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Game-Kings-Legendary-Lymond-Chronicles/dp/0679777431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220924010&sr=8-1). It's the first one written, and the first one chronlogically. I see the booksellers have gone from calling this "The Lymond Chronicles" to calling it "The Legendary Lymond Chronicles" - trying to up the ante, there?

I do love the Vorkosigan books. I'd say there are two choices in starting points, depending how you want to go about it. The first book written in the series (and the first chronologically) is Shards of Honour (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shards-Honour-Vorkosigan-McMaster-Bujold/dp/0743468422/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220924211&sr=1-1), also published as Cordelia's Honour (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cordelias-Winners-Vorkosigan-Adventures-Paperback/dp/0671578286/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220924245&sr=1-1) when packaged with the second book, Barrayar (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Barrayar-Lois-McMaster-Bujold/dp/067172083X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220924435&sr=1-3).

But the main series is about Miles Vorkosigan, who in the above book (or books)isn't born yet. Another way to go about it is to start with the first book that's about Miles, the third one chronologically, The Warrior's Apprentice (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Warriors-Apprentice-Vorkosigan-McMaster-Bujold/dp/0743468406/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220924295&sr=1-1).

[isagel.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I've been meaning to ask you this for ages. *ordering The Game of Kings as we speak*

Would you say The Warrior's Apprentice makes sense without reading the earlier books first?

ETA: "The Legendary Lymond Chronicles" sounds a bit desperate. *g*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Would you say The Warrior's Apprentice makes sense without reading the earlier books first?

Oh yes, definitely.

On the other hand, if you read it first, you'll know how the previous books turned out - so if you like suspense it's not a bad idea to read Shards or Barrayar first. If the suspense matters. I think I read Shards first, The Warrior's Apprentice second - and Barrayar hadn't been published at that point. I might be misremembering, though.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

"The Legendary Lymond Chronicles" sounds a bit desperate. *g*

Yes. Well, actually, I think it sounds downright silly. When I read them we just called them "The Lymond books" and the publishers didn't call them anything at all. Then someone figured they needed a generic title and "The Lymond Chronicles" was it. Ahh, the joys of marketing.

I'm not sure whether they want us to think Lymond is legendary (like some sort of historical ghost-figure) or the chronicles are.

[isagel.livejournal.com]

It sounds to me as if they mean the chronicles are legendary. As if they feel an urgent need to point and shout "look, look, look, these are books you should really, really read!!!" Which actually make the books sound less appealing. But maybe that's just me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Sounds unappealing to me, too. Luckily I know better.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

1. Jack seems more consistent on DW, it seems. I can sort of see why he's all over the map if people are coming only from TW, but I tend to default to "DW!Jack", who is more the way you describe.

2. One of the reasons I fell so hard for Nine was that he was both the most alien and the most human of all the Doctors I've seen. And I still think that's true, although I think Eight is up there, too — at least in the film, he comes off more as the enthusiastic innocent rather than a complex character, but that innocence is slightly alien. And that's an innocence CE also has, but he's got a bit of a shell as well.

3. I agree. Of film versions, I still like Michael Keaton's take the best, because I think that draws that out.

4. Don't know that series.

5. Well, you know I disagree on this one. Not because I see him as anything other than the perfect gothic hero, I just don't particularly care for gothic heroes, and I see a few other aspects that I would add into your list. So I would argue it's not about misunderstanding the character, it's about a different take on what makes an appealing character, so it's more a matter of taste. I never got the appeal of Darcy of Willoughby, but totally loved Colonel Brandon even before he was Alan Rickman (although God knows, that's a major plus).

:) Can you tell I'm procrastinating?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack seems more consistent on DW, it seems. ... I tend to default to "DW!Jack", who is more the way you describe.

Yes, I agree. He makes more sense to me that way.

One of the reasons I fell so hard for Nine was that he was both the most alien and the most human of all the Doctors I've seen.

I liked the balance.

it's about a different take on what makes an appealing character,

Fair enough.

Is Darcy of Willoughby the Mr Darcey of Pride and Prejudice? I liked him well enough, but I'm not enough of a Jane Austen fan to pay much attention. My favourite of her heroes is Captain Wentworth, just because Persuasion was my favourite of her books. And because he was a Captain. I have a bit of a thing for Captains.

Happy to help you procrastinate any time!

(So am I... I'm supposed to be vacuuming by floor before I go to bed.)

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, vacuuming. One of MANY things I'm currently not doing. But when I was doing Pilates this afternoon, the need became crushingly obvious.

Is Darcy of Willoughby the Mr Darcey of Pride and Prejudice?

Oops, typo. Darcy is from P&P, Willoughby is from S&S. Darcy is definitely not as dishonorable as Willoughby, who trifles with Marianne and knocks up Brandon's ward. I just find Darcy a bit arrogant and stiff-necked, and he never apologizes for saying some fairly nasty things early in the novel. I don't hate him, I'm just not sold on him. And I don't find Colin Firth attractive, so that didn't work for me either. To be honest, I've always been drawn more to Austen's older men (well, I would, but I think she's better at creating interesting and subtle characters). So I agree with you on Wentworth (I was blanking on his name); he's definitely more the Brandon type. I think Persuasion is Austen's best novel, but I have always loved the humor and wit of Sense & Sensibility. It's a more old-fashioned style than P&P, but that's part of what I love about it. And that chapter where Fanny and John talk themselves out of giving any money to the girls is just brilliant. I was so glad that Emma Thompson managed to salvage that for the film.

Ah, now I've got the urge to watch Judas Kiss. It's been years.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

when I was doing Pilates this afternoon, the need became crushingly obvious.

Yes. Right now I'm not doing yoga because there's no way I want to lie on that floor. The birds are laughing at me and moulting feathers at a phenomenal rate.

I agree about Colin Firth, though Olivier was all right and I liked David Rintoul in the role.

I don't think I've ever read Sense and Sensibility. I did enjoy the film.

But I can never really feel much enthusiasm for Austen, more's the pity. It's okay - I have enough authors I love, and I acknowledge her cleverness without really getting into it.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I don't have birds, but I do have four cats (how did I end up with four cats?!). Three of which are long-haired. Yeah. At least I just vacuumed!

Olivier was really quite good as Darcy. I thought Timothy Dalton would be a very good Darcy. He's also my favourite Heathcliff.

I'm not a huge Austen fan the way some people are, but I do enjoy her use of language. But as I said above, S&S is my favourite because it's even more clever. She became more naturalistic in style as she went.

I'm curious, did you ever see the BBC version of Wives and Daughters from about 2000?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I do have four cats (how did I end up with four cats?!).

The same way anyone ends up with cats. They adopted you.

I too have now vacuumed. Virtue is me.

I thought Timothy Dalton would be a very good Darcy. He's also my favourite Heathcliff.

I agree and I loved him as Mr. Rochester.

You make me want to read Sense and Sensibility, so now it's back on my 'to be read' list.

No, I haven't seen Wives and Daughters.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

My problem with Hamlet the character is that, as Olivier said at the beginning of his film version, too many people see him as a man "who can't make up his mind." Which isn't the issue at all.

I like Branagh's Hamlet, and Hamlet, best. He plays him with a straighforwardness that makes the part and the play make sense.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

a man "who can't make up his mind." Which isn't the issue at all.

Agreed.

The best Hamlet I've seen was Kenneth Walsh, who was the first one I ever saw on stage. But I've seen lots of good ones. Yes, I certainly liked Branagh's interpretation.

Slight;ly off-topic

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

What does "ETA" (apparently marking additions to comments) stand for?

I thought it either stood for "Estimated Time of Arrival" or Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (which is a Basque group that frequently blows up buildings and people in Spain). [I suppose it could also refer to the seventh Greek letter, eta.]

Re: Slight;ly off-topic

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I know what ETA means but not what it stands for. It means that the person who wrote the comment has edited it after posting it.

It stands for those other things too, and Wikipedia has a nice long list of other things the acronym could be.

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

I agree with 1 and 2. I wish people would stop making Jack a cold bastard. Even when he sent Mary to the sun, it was to protect those he cared about. He's almost parental, in the sense of 'I know whats right and good for you, even if you don't and I'm doing it'. That doesn't make him cold, that makes him omnicent. Which is creepy in and of itself.

As for the Doctor, I watched old stuff when I was a kid, and I watch the new stuff now. And as for character interaction, I like the new stuff a lot more. He's the same character but different, and I've always tried to put my finger on exactly HOW. I thought at first he was less self important, but thats not it. Neither is he less pompous. Maybe its the actors? I'm not sure. But whatever the case, I've liked nine and ten far more then any of the other docs, but old series 5th doctor will always have a bit of my heart too. Hes almost...childlike in an odd way. And I liked that. Its part of what I like about Tennants Doc as well.

I did your letter from that prompt the other day too, if your curious. You almost killed me lol. N should not have been that hard!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wish people would stop making Jack a cold bastard.

Among other considerations, I don't think he's as much fun when portrayed as cold.

Even when he sent Mary to the sun, it was to protect those he cared about.

I have an unsupported (and unsupportable) theory that he didn't send Mary into the sun. He said he did, because he wanted Tosh to think she was dead, so she'd know the relationship was irrevocably over - but he really sent her back to her home planet for justice at their hands. (Rather like the Doctor intended to do with Blon.)

But yes, there's a strong factor of parentalism in Jack's attitude to his team.

Now I'll go look at your Ns.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

What did you think of Stratford's Hamlet this year? I'm seeing it in two weeks.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I liked it. It wasn't very high-powered, but it had some strong moments. Claudius is a high point, Ophelia not so interesting. Hamlet and his mother are both terrific. There are so nice ghost-effects, too.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

I want to add Eden to this list, lol. I can't figure out what kind of 'hero' Eden is. Romantic I guess? Not tragic or anti-hero, I don't think.