Sunny Saturday....

[fajrdrako]

Morning: Tim Horton's coffee with maaseru and maaboroshi, then exercising with my trainer Lynne, and Lisa. Was a little surprised how much I could do, and how my the Foot could do. It was a good session.

Then we went to Cora's for lunch, and talked about various things, including my job, or impending lack thereof. It was a little depressing.

Then: my place, to watch Dr Horrible's Sing-Along Blog and then The Moonstone with iclysdale, commodorified and auriaephiala. Then we went for a walk - barefoot in the park for a good part of it. commodorified is especially good at Foot-coaching. raynedaze joined us and we watched three episodes of Due South: 'The Blue Line', 'The Deal' and 'An Invitation to Romance'. I liked 'The Deal' very much - perhaps the best of the episodes I've seen so far.

Tired. Taking the Foot to bed now.

Comments

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

"The Deal" is easily one of the best episodes — many people consider it the best, and it's certainly in the very top echelon. It's probably my second favourite.

I think people seriously underestimated David Marciano. That fight scene between Ray and Frankie is one of the most beautiful and yet raw scenes I've ever seen on American tv. There's a moment there that's startling even 13 years later.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

"The Deal" is easily one of the best episodes

Yes. It was a sit-up-and-take-notice episode. I have some trouble taking Due South seriously - it's all way too close to comedy for my tastes - but 'The Deal' had read substance. On several levels.

I think people seriously underestimated David Marciano.

I've always thought he was the show's greatest asset.

[dewline.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that I'll have to miss his appearance at RCW 139 (http://rcw139.org/) next month.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I didn't even know they were still having Due South cons. Cool.

[dewline.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Sadly, I missed the registration deadline so it's off-limits to me this year. I hope it turns into a gathering-place of fandoms for all the big CanCon shows of the last couple of decades.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's limited registration, I take it? That's too bad.

Yes, we need all the Canadian cons we can get, and the more Canadian content the better.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I have some trouble taking Due South seriously - it's all way too close to comedy for my tastes - but 'The Deal' had read substance. On several levels.

Yes, and it was, to some extent, David Marciano who pushed them toward that darker side. All of my favourite episodes are the darker ones, although this episode also has some wonderful comedy. "Shoe-related elf stories!"

I've always thought he was the show's greatest asset.

I guess I've been damaged by fandom, in that he was the character who really made me love dS — I started in S3, which supposedly is the "great" season, and it didn't really do anything for me until I swung around and started watching S1. It was Vecchio that really got to me, his complexity, his use of language, and most importantly, he brought the humanity out of Fraser, who always teetered on the edge of parody (and apparently Paul Gross liked him that way). I thought he was more interesting when he was the symbol on the outside, but you could see that there was a real guy underneath there, putting that on because it was safe. I love the way they both used "front" to get by, but in completely opposite ways, such wonderful symmetry. (In fact, the very first thing I ever did on LJ was a pair of essays: The Mountie Mask and Armani Armour.)

But fandom was always obsessed by PG or later by CKR and DM was often openly vilified. It's only been in the last year that people have started to re-approach Vecchio with an open mind.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

Huh. As someone who has never had a decent glimpse at online Due South fandom, this is shocking to me!

I remember watching DS during the original run. I don't think I ever quite got over the trauma of watching the first episode after the gap year and realizing that my beloved Vecchio was gone for good. I still watched it, and liked it, but it was never the same. Callum Keith Rennie never did anything for me, which probably had something to do with it.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

The presence on LJ has, until recently, been completely dominated by the CKR fans. I actually got into fandom in the wake of 9/11 (it only occurred to me much later that it was a retreat into a show where people cared about each other!), and it was mostly bulletin boards and mailing lists at that time, and the hostility between camps was quite high. It's true that the S1/2 folks were not too welcoming to S3/4, but then the S3/4 folks were also bad winners, so there was a lot of hostility, and by the time the fandom made the jump to LJ, most of the S1/2 fans, particularly the F/V folks, were basically either beaten into submission or had left the fandom.

I got into the show itself when S3 was first run on BBC2, about three episodes in, and I thought it was cute and quirky and filled the bill for weeknight dinnertime viewing quite nicely, but I didn't even notice that they didn't finish showing the entire series! They ended up burning it off at odd hours and on UK Gold, so I only caught it sporadically, but they made a fairly big deal out of Call of the Wild, and that was my first introduction to Vecchio. What just smacked me between the eyes was that Fraser was a completely different person with him. And the end, well — not to spoil, but let's just say, even clueless as I was of the history, my thought was, "Okay, that's an ending dictated by who's under contract, not the ending that comes out of the relationships I saw on screen."

I was really surprised when they rolled back around to S1/2. The show was so much richer, in every way including the lighting (that show had fantastic lighting). I wasn't even reading slash then (although, eventually, F/V did suck me in), I just saw a relationship that I loved and some extremely well-crafted stories.

I do think that S3 has tarnished a bit in comparison for me, even though I liked it at the time. Honestly, I thought the joke was that it was an ensemble show that featured a "buddy-cop" team in which the "buddies" couldn't stand each other! I thought it was a brilliant conceit.

Oops!

[dewline.livejournal.com]

I think I may have been perhaps fortunate in that I've stayed away from organized fandom re: dS thus far. I knew it was there, to be sure, and I'd visit alt.tv.due-south on occasion, and heard of the previous editions of the convention. But that was it for the time being.

This sort of factionalization...well, it reminds me too much of what may be one of the contributing factors to ST: Enterprise ending as it did on TV. If the show ever does get revived, I think I'd be disappointed if it didn't include both Rays on a regular basis. Both Marciano and Rennie could contribute a lot to the mix.

Question for format debate: should a revival be live action or animated?

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I think I may have been perhaps fortunate in that I've stayed away from organized fandom re: dS thus far.

Sometimes I wish I had. There were good experiences, but also quite a few that were traumatic. Considering the time frame in which they took place, reading some Vecchio-bashing fanfic was soooo not what I needed at the time! But there was a huge faction of fandom that saw Vecchio as abusive and mean and the worst thing ever to happen to Fraser — just so Kowalski could come in and rescue him, I think.

I've actually come to the conclusion that I like the character of Kowalski more than I like the way CKR plays him. He's just one of those actors that just never clicks for me — BSG confirmed that. Leoben should be a fascinating, electric character, but I find my attention wandering whenever he's on screen. It frustrates me more in BSG, but in retrospect, I can see it happening in dS, too, for instance in Eclipse.

I think dS should never be revived, except perhaps by a tv movie written by King & Slevin. (I won't say any more so as not to spoil our hostess!)

I've never been involved in ST fandom at all, despite watching all the different variants pretty religiously. What "factions" developed in Enterprise (which I always felt never got off the ground because there was some sort of internal tension over what it should be)?

[dewline.livejournal.com]

Internal tension on Enterprise's creative staff...yes, I think you could argue for that theory and it would make sense as another contributing factor. There were people among the Trekkers and Trekkies who argued that we didn't need ENT for various reasons(including already published spin-off fiction published by assorted licensees), others who felt that only what aired mattered, and on and on.

As to Rennie...I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

should a revival be live action or animated?

What, of Due South? A revival would be a very different animal, though it would lend itself well to animation. The only show I can think of that has gone (successfully) from live action to animation has been Doctor Who. Most things go the other way round.

Factionalization in fandoms usually doesn't bother me; people like what they like. Sometimes, maybe often, I am in the group with the minority taste, but I tend not to be very factional. I came to Due South fandom with my knowledge of it as a slash fandom; when I was first reading it, I took it for granted that it was all about Fraser and Vecchio being partners.

That probably gave me a bias. How much of one, I don't know.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I missed all the fan battles... Possibly because, by predating CKR, there was nothing much to squabble over at the time: it was a shiny new fandom. There were those who preferred Fraser to Vecchio and vice versa, but that wasn't much of a controversy, just a matter of taste.

When I started watching recently I thought at first that Vecchio was too much of a stereotype-parody of Americans. Now I think Vecchio is just fine and Fraser is too much of a stereo-type parody of Canadians. (I don't mean 'too much' for the sake of enjoying the show, I mean 'too much to enjoy the character'.) We'll see what I think after I've watched some more.

What is BBC2? What is UK gold? And what does Due South have to do with the UK?

although, eventually, F/V did suck me in

I was into slash in a big way, but not into Due South - betaed a lot of stories for friends, though, and at one point proofread a Due South print zine with considerable pleasure. Truthfully: my knowledge of the characters at the time came far more from slashfic than from the show, which I wasn't watching.

I thought the joke was that it was an ensemble show that featured a "buddy-cop" team in which the "buddies" couldn't stand each other! I thought it was a brilliant conceit.

Oops!

Not having seen series 3, I don't understand that comment at all! Are they supposed to like each other?

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

My experience of the F/V part of fandom, I have to say, was really lovely.

I have some old fanzines — do you remember what fanzine you edited? Maybe I have one!

I was never into slash, even though I knew about it, but dS was my way in. When you've seen more, I'll tell you the path, because it's kind of backward. I tend to go where the chemistry is, whether it's slash or het, although I've not yet dabbled in femslash. The one time I could have seen it, possibly, was Gwen/Cerys in TW. It was, however, just a brief spark!

Not having seen series 3, I don't understand that comment at all! Are they supposed to like each other?

Let's put that one on hold. ;-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I still have whatever fanzine it was that I proofread, I think. It was Australian. I'll see if I can find its title.

Gwen/Cerys - that was a wonderful moment. A 'brief spark', as you say.

We'll talk more when I've seen more of DS!

[dewline.livejournal.com]

I think his work on Galactica will have opened up a few minds as to what could be done with Mr. Rennie in future.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think he's undoubtedly a good actor. But so much depends on scripts and direction. Always. Few actors can or do really rise above their material.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm a Vecchio lover, so count me in the ranks of his fans.

I don't know what I'll think of Callum Keith Rennie. I find him terrifying on Battlestar Galactica, and interesting though not compelling in other things I've seen him in. Initially I thought he was gorgeous, but now I wonder why I thought that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

...David Marciano who pushed them toward that darker side

I was thinking more of tone than content: I don't necessarily want 'darker' stories, just more serious and deeper ones. This delivered. In spades.

"Shoe-related elf stories!"

I loved that!

It was Vecchio that really got to me, his complexity, his use of language, and most importantly, he brought the humanity out of Fraser, who always teetered on the edge of parody (and apparently Paul Gross liked him that way).

I the whole point of the show - initially, at least - was parody, including self-parody. (Not so much of Paul Gross individually, but of Canadians in general.) This is not the aspect of the show that I watch it for, though it's sometimes very funny.

In fact, the very first thing I ever did on LJ was a pair of essays: The Mountie Mask and Armani Armour.

What a great title! When I've watch more, I look forward to reading more DS fic and meta.

But fandom was always obsessed by PG or later by CKR and DM was often openly vilified.

Really? As it happens, the people who first introduced me to DS fandom (way back before series 3 ever happened) were Vecchio fans, so I came to it from that point of view.

I've only seen one Callum Keith Rennie episode, and it was all right, t hough I don't remember it now; so far, my money's on Vecchio, but I'm pretty much expecting to like both Rays.

Though Fraser is interesting, he hasn't yet quite won my heart (except maybe in flashes of brilliance), and it's Geoffrey Tennant and Chris Cutter I think of as Gross's prime roles. (Wish I'd seen his Hamlet!)

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I was thinking more of tone than content: I don't necessarily want 'darker' stories, just more serious and deeper ones.

DM's argument to Paul Haggis was that if the characters remained stereotypes, the audience wouldn't be able to connect to them or care; and that if Ray were really the f*&!-up he was described in some of the early episodes, he'd be dead by now. He was basically arguing for more realism, which I think is quite smart. It was certainly those more "heartfelt" moments and episodes that made me love the show, even though I had enjoyed S3 when I watched it first. So to go onto the next point, I did like S3 when I watched it, it just doesn't quite feel like the same show when I go back to it, if that makes sense. I've got more context for the characters.

It helps to be brought in by Vecchio fans! Or at least S1/2 fans. I know a few people who were brought in by Kowalski fans and found themselves falling for S1/2 and/or F/V and there being agita because of it. Personally, I'd watched the show for several years before I got into fandom, so I was pretty established and didn't get buffeted by fandom opinion, other than staying in Vecchio-friendly waters.

It was shown on the BBC and UK Gold in the UK, which is where I saw it, and BBC2 was one of the co-funders of the third series, which makes it even more surprising that they didn't show the second half of the series in their cult TV slot at 6pm on weeknights. You'd have The Simpsons on Monday, different versions of Star Trek on most days, and dS was usually on on Wednesdays. Actually that's not true — the first two series were shown on Sunday night first, but I didn't watch it at that point because they were mostly advertising it as the wacky adventures of the Mountie and his wolf, which didn't appeal to me. But by the time S3 rolled around, it was part of the cult line-up.

Wow. Rambling about schedule! I must be procrastinating...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He was basically arguing for more realism, which I think is quite smart.

I totally approve. It's the lightness of DS that kept me from being a fan all these years; I still find it too light for my tastes, most of the time, but every once in a while we get these flashes of what my mind interprets as 'the real story' and I get into it. Currently I'm seeing Fraser as shallow and Vecchio as interesting, but commodorified assures me that I'll come to love Fraser because he is 'so very fucked up'. This is quite possible.

I didn't know that Due South had that British connection. Interesting!

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

How's the foot today, BTW, after being on it a lot yesterday?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The Foot is tired. I walked today, though, too. By the canal. Not for long.

I think the Foot dislikes humid summer weather.

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I think the Foot dislikes humid summer weather.

Don't we all? I went out at 8:30 this morning to do lawn work, and got overheated in about 20 minutes.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes. It makes it difficult to do things, especially outdoors.

Hopefully tomorrow will be less humid.

[dewline.livejournal.com]

Glad to see you had a good day!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It was great - busy, but good!

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog is wonderful. :) They won't be streaming it at the site after Sunday, though. You'll have to get at iTunes.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Why? Are they discontinuing the Doctor Horrible site? That's a pity!

[raissad.livejournal.com]

I don't know if they're discontinuing the site. Here's Whedon's Master plan:
http://drhorrible.com/plan.html

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I should have known Whedon would have a cunning plan.

He's a scary man.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog. Hee. I'd forgotten... oh, now I have it back: I was eating a waffle-cone of vanilla italian custard on a blessedly hot day, and called you on impulse because I'd just read this unbelieveable Joss Whedon tidbit in the newspaper. Oh, yeah!

I'm speechless regarding your barefoot endeavors.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog. Hee. I'd forgotten...

It is, in my opinion, unbearably silly. Sort of fun, in its way, but I don't like the theme: it's more of Joss's interest in dorky young men who can't even speak to the girls they like. High school material, or, what if Xander were a supervillain like Pinky and the Brain? 'Boy stuff', say I.

high school, bah

[(Anonymous)]

(Apparently the superheroes down the hall from Dr. Horrible aren't Pinky and the Brain: they are Arthur and The Tick ! According to Whedon. The sidekick "Moist" is the clue.)

But yah know, it isn't just young people who can't gather up courage. I had a failure of courage in a supermarket just last week. Which is why this is anonymous...

Re: high school, bah

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the superheroes down the hall from Dr. Horrible aren't Pinky and the Brain: they are Arthur and The Tick ! According to Whedon. The sidekick "Moist" is the clue.

Metaphorically striking my forehead - yes! I should have guessed.

Supermarkets make me think of Ianto and bananas. Nice thought. Big places. They always put milk in the furthest corner from the door; makes it hard for those of us having difficulty walking.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Oh. Well, Nathan Fillion.

I didn't know you knew about Pinky & the Brain. They're one of my favorites. I find the Animaniacs just about totally delightful. With President Bill Clinton playing the sax in their opening credits.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, Nathan Fillion. He's a phenomenon of nature.

I find the Animaniacs just about totally delightful.

We saw that at Tom and Mary's place once, or am I misremembering?

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely! And you loved it, I remember. One of the bits they showed was Yakko singing the countries of the world. I have that on DVD now!!! I am so happy.

Slappy the Squirrel is wonderful. So are Pinky and the Brain. Ditto Rita and Runt (Rita is a stray cat, voiced by Bernadette Peters... at one point, she has a line, played straight to the "camera": "Well, what did you expect, Sondheim?"). And the Warner Brothers and Sister are seriously strange. Yeah, I like non-linear. Skullhead Boneyhands is also fine to see. I can't say much about the Goodfeathers, or Mindy and Buttons... they're okay, but never grabbed me the way the others did. I consider the Animaniacs to be a high point of television cartoons, and was utterly happy the day I found the first two seasons on DVD, yep.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have mixed feelings about television cartoons. Mostly perfer to avoid them, mostly because of the voices, which are almost always strident.

I remember liking Animaniacs - I liked the music - but still don't have the 'want to watch' impulse. Sort of how I feel about Pixar movies. And of course part of the problem (tho' it isn't a problem)is that these tend to be comedies.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

And I miss Cora's. Sigh.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm not really a big fan of Cora's, though I like it occasionally. I was delighted to see they have oatmeal. The Mayflower is better for breakfast, though! And so is Baker Street.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

OK. I just miss Ottawa. There, I said it.

Hope your foot continues to find its way back to its former abilities. Mine, today, was hurting terribly. Not sure what to do about it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Does your foot hurt more in humid weather?

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

My foot hurts more when I am standing on a concrete floor! [g] I'm looking into shoe options, and orthotic inserts. I already have some heel-cupping sort-of arch supports that do indeed keep my feet from overpronating; however, as one result of this, my fore-foot takes more stress, and this is part of why everything is hurting right now. I'm still getting used to these inserts. The part of my foot that it makes hurt is the middle-toe area that got broken in January, and badly bruised again a month or more ago. I would say, this pain is possibly to be expected.

Humid weather. Hm. My building is air-conditioned, to keep the computers and machines from overheating, so it's highly arid, basically. I do have some added discomfort from driving: it's my right foot, after all (hey, I hear I'm not the only one...). I'll have to wait and see if it does become more achey this fall and winter with the damp, chillier weather. Interesting question. Does yours hurt more with humid weather...?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Standing too long is painful, but not very - it isn't like having plantar fasciites, thank goodness.

Yes, in humid weather my ankle swells more, hurts more, and - no surprise - feels hot. Ice packs make it feel better again.

The theatre and my apartment are both air conditioned, but in July, nothing in Ottawa is arid. Ottawa was built on a swamp and sometimes it's painfully obvious!