Ten things that make me a really bad Torchwood fan...

[fajrdrako]

You know I love Torchwood, unless this is your first glance at my LJ. But sometimes I think I'm a really bad Torchwood fan, out of synch with most of the fandom. Why?

Ten things that make me a really bad Torchwood fan

1. I love Gwen Cooper - not deeply, not unreservedly, sometimes more than at other times, but I so love her scenes. Especially her sexual tensions with Jack. Given that my TV-watching roots are in slash, this sometimes disturbs me.
   
   
2. I don't find Ianto sexy. I like him a lot. Sometimes I love him, especially in "Cyberwoman", "Meat" and "Adam". I enjoy a lot of Jack/Ianto fic. I like to write about them, too. But I don't feel I have a handle on Ianto's character, and insofar as I understand it, it seems somewhat unformed and young. He had great moments, but they don't add up to a great character. Bottom line: I find him interesting, but not really sexy.
   
   Or perhaps... I simply don't have enough sense of the relationship as a relationship. I don't understand it. I don't get any sense of what Jack feels about Ianto, and though Ianto's love of Jack is clear, it doesn't come across to me as romantic as I'd like it to be. The Jack/Jack scenes were hotter and more romantic, to my eyes.
   
   This of course doesn't stop me from enjoying Ianto's snogging scenes with Jack.
   
   That being said, it seems to me that the Jack/Ianto laison keeps Jack from flirting or dating elsewhere, men or women or aliens, and that disappoints me.
   
   
3. I never did come to like Owen. I'm glad he's gone. He had some great stories, but he was never endearing. I'd rather see PC Andy than Owen, any day.
   
   
4. If the price of having Toshiko around was seeing her unrequited (or, worse, requited) love for Owen, I'm glad she's gone.
   
   
5. Though I love some of the sadder episodes (like "Sleeper"), I wish the tone of the show was lighter, and that Jack was flirtier and funnier.
   
   
6. I'd like more time travel. Why did the Doctor destroy Jack's vortex manipulator, anyway?
   
   
7. I'm somewhat sorry Gwen and Rhys married, even though I liked "Something Borrowed", and I love Rhys.
   
   
8. More orgies, please.
   
   Captain John would support me on this.
   
   Okay, I'm kidding, sort of. But in series 2 they backed off the refreshingly open portayal of sex in series 1, and the series is a little more ordinary because of it. Moreover, with Gwen married to Rhys, Jack and Ianto acting like a couple, Owen first celibate then dead, some of the romantic suspense has gone from the show.
   
   
9. We've seen a fair amount of Gwen's private life, and touched on Owen's, Tosh's and even Jack's. But Ianto? We haven't seen where he lives, or whether his parents are alive, or whether he has ever had any friends except Lisa. I'd like more. It would possibly make him seem more significant.
   
   
10. I'd rather see Captain Jack Harkness on the TARDIS than in the Hub.
    

Comments

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

1. Join me on that bus! It's kinda short, but there are still plenty of empty seats!

6. Because sometimes the Doctor's a bit of a patronizing bastard who knows what's best for EVERYONE? (Note: this does not interfere with my loving him.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Join me on that bus! It's kinda short, but there are still plenty of empty seats!

Happily there with you! Waving pom poms. Discreetly.

Because sometimes the Doctor's a bit of a patronizing bastard who knows what's best for EVERYONE?

Right.

I love the Doctor with a passion but I'm furious with him for his treatment of Jack.

The Doctor thinks he knows what's best for everyone, but he doesn't know what would be best for himself.

He's a lovable idiot savant.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

1. I adore Gwen! I have such a crush on Eve Myles. Those freckles... that accent... that sense of humor... unh.

8. Yes, and I would add subclause 8a: bring back the swearing, motherfuckers! I miss my foul-mouthed team, God damn it!

9. Word to the nth power. Perhaps with fewer principle players we'll get a taste of that in Season 3. Like thinning carrots: you end up with fewer carrots but the ones that are left are bigger and better. /random wtf simile

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Those freckles... that accent... that sense of humor... unh.

I love her hair. And the expression she gets when perplexed. There are so many things to love about Gwen.

bring back the swearing, motherfuckers! I miss my foul-mouthed team, God damn it!

Fuck, yes!

Perhaps with fewer principle players we'll get a taste of that in Season 3.

I'd like that.

Like thinning carrots: you end up with fewer carrots but the ones that are left are bigger and better. </i That's an encouraging thought, isn't it? Let's hope!

[rustydog.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on at least half of these, especially #2 (and 9 as a subset of 2, perhaps) and don't think you're a bad fan for any of them. :)

I like Gwen a lot and spent the first season feeling ashamed of myself somehow, because almost everybody I knew hated her. ::shrug:: I don't see what there is about the character to hate, and if it's about the amount of screen/story time she got, that's the writers, not the character. I do like the sexual tension with Jack (though I hope it stays UST for the most part) and I love every time her emotions ramp up. Because then her accent gets thicker and, well, it's a turn-on for me. *g*

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

I get very prickly over some attitudes to Gwen. The fact is, as she is the only Welshwoman in the team, she's the one I identify with; she's not much like me but she's very like a lot of my cousins and "cousins"*. And because of some very bad experieces we've all had, I can't get rid of the feeling that some of these people dislike her because she's a Welshwoman. It might be paranoia but it also might be that it isn't paranoia when people really are against you.

*Daughters of my parents' friends. If you grow up calling someone "Auntie", psychologically their children are your cousins. I was in my teens before I was sure which ones were biologically related to me and which weren't.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like Gwen a lot and spent the first season feeling ashamed of myself somehow, because almost everybody I knew hated her.

Yeah, me too. She so often rubs fans the wrong way. This puzzled me: they were being so hard on her, for essentially understandable human failings.

if it's about the amount of screen/story time she got, that's the writers, not the character

Yes. I too would rather see Captain Jack's story than Gwen's story. But it's like the Companions in Doctor Who: they feel compelled to give us a more mundane viewpoint character. This being the case, you could do a lot worse than Gwen.

I do like the sexual tension with Jack (though I hope it stays UST for the most part)

I think it will, since they've made a big deal in interviews about how she's going to be faithful to Rhys. This disappoints me a little as I was hoping for a cuddly threesome, kind of like we got at the end of "Exit Wounds" with Ianto instead of Rhys, but that's okay. I can live with the status quo. But I'd like to see Jack with a woman again, even if just in a fun-flirty way like with Martha.

I love every time her emotions ramp up. Because then her accent gets thicker and, well, it's a turn-on for me. *g*

Eee! Yes! Me too.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

2. It came as a surprise to me to discover that Ianto had an emotional life that didn't involve trainsets or stamp albums. My working hypothesis is that Jack is working on charming Ianto out of his shell.

7. South Welsh joke: "Married, is she? I didn't know she was pregnant!" "She isn't. "Ooo, there's posh!" Posh, Gwen is, man.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It came as a surprise to me to discover that Ianto had an emotional life that didn't involve trainsets or stamp albums.

LOL. Good observation! The Ianto we glimpsed in "Frgments" - before he was reshaping himself into the man he thought Jack wanted - was rather intriguing, but I did wonder, "where did he come from?" Ianto has reshaped himself so often I don't know where the real Ianto is. The out-of-control obsessive of "Cyberwoman"? The would-be Bond-type of "Meat", with stun gun and style? The lonely, frightened soul of "Adam"? The smart-ass of "Sleeper"? I can only conclude "he's all of the above", but it doesn't give me much of a handle. I think that's why fans find him so easy to write; you can reshape him to taste at any moment.

I don't find him easy to write - all I can do is play him off Jack.

My working hypothesis is that Jack is working on charming Ianto out of his shell.

That works for me! Maybe he's looking for the inner Ianto, too.

South Welsh joke: "Married, is she? I didn't know she was pregnant!" "She isn't. "Ooo, there's posh!"

LOL! She was pregnant when she married, but it Wasn't Her Fault!

(Though her mother-in-law probably blames her anyway.)

[msilverstar]

I like Gwen too, though I also like Rhys and want the sexual/emotional tension with Jack to never, ever, be consummated.

I'm with you on Ianto needing more depth. Snogging's great though!

Owen was refreshingly weird and abrasive. But I'd like PC Andy, who seems to be snarky and tough, to join the team.

The world needs more Tosh, preferably NOT PINING after ANYONE.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

The world needs Tosh, single and happy - or at least, single and not bothered. *wears asexuality on sleeve*

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

Agree w/ 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10

Would agree w/ 9 if it made me LIKE Ianto more ;)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Would agree w/ 9 if it made me LIKE Ianto more

I can't help thinking that more information can't hurt.

My impression is that what we're seeing with Ianto is a growing-up process. The problem being that at 26 or whatever he is, he should have a solidly-formed personality already. This makes me tend to think of him as a kid, which he isn't.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

You seem to be in good company with your flist! I'm about to re-embark on watching S2, so excuse me for getting carried away in replying - I'm in a thinky mood...

#1 & #7. I got very frustrating with the writing of Gwen in S1, and was delighted when she got some proper, meaty screen time in S2. Alas, I don't see the tension with Jack, but I don't have a problem with the writing of it. Besides, if I really hated a character, why would I watch the show? I do like that she and Rhys are married (and how awesome Rhys is), but it is kind of a shame - I can see Jack backing off a bit now, and although I don't see the chemistry, I will miss the flirting.

#2 & #9. Totally agree. I find Ianto tremendously difficult to get a handle on, because I have to extrapolate so much from so little evidence. S2 helped, but I still feel he's a bit of an enigma to me. I get round it by writing other's perspectives on him, or using him as a window on Jack, but I don't feel I have his voice yet.

#3. I didn't warm to Owen, although he was essential for the mix of the team. As one of them, I liked him. As a character in his own right, I just couldn't get interested.

#4. Since I wrote about halfway through the season that they should either give Tosh something to do or give her a noble death that actually meant something, I felt kind of guilty in the finale. Sorry to lose her, but it's better than wasting her.

#5 & #10. I like the darker Jack, although the slightly lighter tone of S2 Jack was easier to relate to. If Doctor Who didn't waste him as a character, I'd agree, but if all he's there to do is be a plot device, I'd rather keep him in Torchwood. The tone of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang struck me as just right, and it was kind of a shame that petered off by the third episode.

#6. Heh. Most unfair, wasn't it? But I can just imagine them looking at the Torchwood plot outlines and going "please don't make us do Time Travel too - we can't afford it!"

#8. *giggle* Yeah, they did, as they did with the swearing. It's one of those 50/50 things, where it gave them a bigger audience, and there were moments in S1 when I felt they were trying too hard to shock, but still. Would have been nice to see more.

I do sometimes feel that fandom is this huge thing that happens elsewhere, while I'm happily pottering around my flist nattering to people. It's certainly been much easier since I stopped watching the main communities...

part 1 of another 2-part answer

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You seem to be in good company with your flist!

I don't think this is any kind of coincidence; I think they are on my flist (and, in many cases, I on theirs) because of like-minded thinking. I am not likely to be reading the LJs of the Gwen-haters, for example. I flinch and move away.

I'm about to re-embark on watching S2, so excuse me for getting carried away in replying - I'm in a thinky mood...

Oh, please do! I was thinking of watching both series, while I'm not back at work yet. Might do it.

#1 & 7 - how awesome Rhys is

I agree that Rhys is awesome. A wonderful character. As good as a boyfriend as a husband, though.

I will miss the flirting.

Me too. Though I think we'll still get some.

#2 & 9 - I find Ianto tremendously difficult to get a handle on, because I have to extrapolate so much from so little evidence.

Yes. And I don't quite fine Gareth David-Lloyd cute enough that it doesn't matter.

I get round it by writing other's perspectives on him, or using him as a window on Jack, but I don't feel I have his voice yet.

Exactly! Or conversely, I can slip him into any voice I want, and that isn't very satisfactory to me as a writer. It gives me nowhere to go with him except as an adjunct of Jack. It's so much fun when a slash hero is a full personality in his own right.

#3 - As one of them, I liked him. As a character in his own right, I just couldn't get interested.

I don't much like Burn Gorman, for all his excellent acting. Owen at first just wasn't sympathetic enough; when we found out why he was the way he was (unkind mother, dead fiancee) it wasn't quite interesting enough to redeem him. I thought he became, on the whole, less interesting and sympathetic as series 2 continued. I liked him in "Fragments", partly because of the surprise factor, but it was too little, too late, to integrate that into the story of Owen. Then he died for real, and I had the feeling that the inner Owen got lost in the shuffle somewhere.

Not a big problem: I didn't want a show about the inner Owen. Enough about Owen, already. I know other fans were tired of seeing Gwen onscreen. Owen is the one I got tired of rather quickly. And I particularly disliked him when Tosh was around, which, since they were tending to pair the two in series 2, just made it all worse for me.

What will they do for a gadfly on the team now? Captain John, perhaps? I think I would like that.

[aeron-lanart.livejournal.com]

None of them make you a bad fan, you just have your own opinions.

I am not a Gwen hater as such, but she annoys me and if it wasn't for Owen would probably be my least favourite character. I like the characters we don't know as much about... Ianto and Tosh... as that gives my evil imagination a little more leeway, I just wish they hadn't made Tosh into an emotional wet blanket.

And I totally agree there should be more PC Andy. And orgies. Preferably at the same time.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

you just have your own opinions.

So I do, and don't we all?

Calling myself a 'bad fan' is really just a way of saying 'out of step with a lot of the popular fan opinions'. Which may or may not be the majority, who knows? Probably just the majority opinions of what I've been seeing.

she annoys me and if it wasn't for Owen would probably be my least favourite character.

Ah. Owen wins least-favourite for me, by far. Tosh probably comes second there - I loved her, but she didn't develop in the way I wanted her to at all. In fact, the characteristics I found most annoying in her were accentuated more and more in series 2, so I was actually glad to see her go rather than see more of the same. I liked her heroic death.

I totally agree there should be more PC Andy. And orgies. Preferably at the same time.

Works for me.

Great icon you have there.

[elebridith]

Lunchbreak's nearly over, so no ranty comment here *lol*
I like Gwen. Period. As you, not always the same, but her character in general, yes.
Liked Owen somehow. Liked to hate him, sometimes.
Like Ianto. Sexy? Hmmm... can't decide yet.

Oh, and different opinions are *good*. As long as one can have a civilized discussion about it and not a wank... *eyes other fandoms* *That* makes someone a bad fan, not having a different opinion! *nods*
Season Two comes out in July. *taps foot* I am spoiled, yes, but I want to *see*!!! *stares at the long line of non-watched DVDs and sighs* That's going to be a hard decision... *g*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Lunchbreak's nearly over, so no ranty comment here *lol*

I am disappointed. Ranty comments always welcome.

I like Gwen. Period. As you, not always the same, but her character in general, yes.

Yes. Bottom line: she's fun, she's sexy, she's smart in the right ways. And if she sometimes does dumb things, don't they all?

Liked Owen somehow. Liked to hate him, sometimes.

Yes. I still think my main problem with him was probably just that I don't like Burn Gorman, for all his talents. But Owen became more problematic for me as series 2 went on and the characterization became more inchoate.

As long as one can have a civilized discussion about it and not a wank... *eyes other fandoms* *That* makes someone a bad fan, not having a different opinion!

So true.

Season Two comes out in July

Good!

I fear I won't be able to afford it for a while, but... sooner or later.

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Given that my TV-watching roots are in slash, this sometimes disturbs me.

This made me laugh out loud. Oh, do learn tolerance, infant.

I never did come to like Owen. I'm glad he's gone.

I liked Owen, and would rather have lost Ianto, who - gasp! - I find rather boring and not at all sexy (well, okay, very slightly sexy in combination with Captain Jack. But that's the Jack factor.). Now Owen slashed with Captain Jack would have been incendiary - all that snark and not-niceness and conflict - think of the scene where Jack forgives him and they hug...

I liked the fact that Owen was often not very nice. And I wanted more about why he was the way he was. More, I mean, than the sketchy dead-fiancee story that they eventually gave us.

Hmm. I think part of the reason I found Owen so interesting is that Burn Gorman is probably the best actor of the lot. Including, imo, John Barrowman who is okay as long as he has a strong actor to play against (Christopher Eccleston!) but who I tend to find unconvincing otherwise. Wow, that's two unpopular opinions in one short comment. I'm on a roll here!

PC Andy has potential, yes. I'll agree with you on that. :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This made me laugh out loud. Oh, do learn tolerance, infant.

Heh. Working on it.

Ianto, who - gasp! - I find rather boring and not at all sexy (well, okay, very slightly sexy in combination with Captain Jack

Well, yes, but the thing there is, anyone is sexy in combination with Captain Jack.

Now Owen slashed with Captain Jack would have been incendiary - all that snark and not-niceness and conflict -

Oh, yes. And there were some wonderful moments between them, never followed up on.

think of the scene where Jack forgives him and they hug...

So much more emotive and significant than the scene immediately preceding, where Jack hugs and kisses Ianto in implied forgiveness.

Also the scene in the cemetery which I loved, in "Fragments", where Owen hits Jack and Jack's apologizing.

I wanted more about why he was the way he was.

So did I.

More, I mean, than the sketchy dead-fiancee story that they eventually gave us.

I liked that, but afterwards, I wasn't sure how well it fit. I had a feeling of 'you can't get there from here' - or if you could, I wanted more explanation. How did Owen go from being that Owen, to the one we met in "Everything Changes"?

Burn Gorman is probably the best actor of the lot

Yes. But that only makes me wish I liked him better.

John Barrowman should have scenes with Christopher Eccleston forever and ever.

I'm on a roll here!

Look what I started!

[lauradi7.livejournal.com]

I was amused by the people hoping that Owen would be eaten by a weevil in the first season, so I was outraged when Gwen took up with him, and furious about how much she lied to Rhys. Also, not atypical for TV detective shows, she's always and forever doing stupid things without backup. I have high hopes for her now that she's more grounded and stable. I don't care to ever see any more UST between her and Jack.

Ianto - I think that after the carnage at Canary Wharf, part of him wanted to start over again as a new person, and that became even more true after any hope of reviving Lisa (as Lisa) was gone. He's feeling his way into what new Ianto will become, and I think Jack is enjoying being mentor and comforting home base. And they find each other hot, as well.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I was amused by the people hoping that Owen would be eaten by a weevil in the first season

Yes. I didn't so much hope that as.... Well, to tell the truth, what I wished was that he was played by another actor, one as good as Burn Gorman, but whom I could find more palatable. I think I liked Owen less in series 2 than in series 1.

not atypical for TV detective shows, she's always and forever doing stupid things without backup

Yes, annoying. But the others do, too. I get very annoyed when she won't listen to anyone - as does Rhys. But I can also sort of love her for it.

I have high hopes for her now that she's more grounded and stable.

I loved the way she took over Torchwood while Jack was gone, reshaping it in something more like her own image and less of Jack's.

I don't care to ever see any more UST between her and Jack.

I think I will see it forever, whether the show ever makes reference to it again or not. Which is fine by me, since I like it.

He's feeling his way into what new Ianto will become, and I think Jack is enjoying being mentor and comforting home base. And they find each other hot, as well.

All of which I like. I look forward to seeing what he will become.

I think... I see him as a somewhat different man in each episode. It left me confused.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Interesting list.

1. Okay, don't lynch me. I had issues with Gwen in the first series, but I have to say that I blame that more on the writing than on the character. By End of Days, she was still being written as the POV character and also as the 'heart' of Torchwood, but I think it become more difficult to reconcile those two roles with the Gwen we saw being pulled deeper and deeper into Torchwood. So there was a disconnect, to me.

In all respects, series two was a vast improvement! It made it very clear to me that it wasn't Gwen that I was wary about, but rather the way that Gwen was being presented to me, if that makes sense. I really like the Gwen-Ianto friendship that's been hinted at onscreen, too.

Strangely enough, I've even come to like the Jack/Gwen tension. Since you've probably picked up on my shipping tendencies, you can see why that might surprise me! To me, the tension in Meat and Something Borrowed was perfectly done, whereas in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang it was clunky and off-putting.

2. Well, okay, I admit to loving Ianto. Not because he's sexy, although I think he is. I can't really identify why I like him so much, come to think of it. His characterization can be frustratingly uneven, although what we have I love. And honestly, if you ignore his weird attitude in Sleeper, it makes a lot more sense. Except I did like the Jack/Ianto scene at the beginning, and the funny little bit with the radio at the end.

3 & 4. I came to appreciate Owen more in a dramatic sense than a personal sense. I liked that he was unlikable. And I have to admit, I liked his side of the Owen/Tosh thing, although I felt for Tosh less as it went on. I didn't quite buy his Fragments story, either.

5. I like them both. Sometimes I do think they should dial down the angst. Day in the Death and Something Borrowed were two of the best episodes this season, and they were both lighter. Even though one was all about death. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, as mentioned elsewhere, also had a good balance (and I liked the office scene, apart from JB's delivery of the 'dinner, a movie...' line).

6. I'm torn. Time travel is cool, but I don't really know that it has a place in Torchwood. Episodes like Out of Time and To The Last Man were very powerful, though, and I wouldn't mind more of the 'people out of time' sort of thing. I did like the flashbacks, too, particular to Gerald and Harriet.

7. I'm happy they did. Plus, Rhys is adorable.

9. Yes. Tell me about it. The latest TM prompt is "Show us where you live." I look at that and I look at Ianto and I am at a loss.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

I too, love Ianto. He's in the shadows, him with his quietness, gentleness, uber-competence, and his mostly-hidden raging volcano of emotion. Wow. That calls to me in a giant way. (O HAI, IM BIPOLR)

And I find him sexually fascinating for the same reason (see "raging volcano" above). Good lord, what must happen when that suit comes off. O__O

I don't agree that at 24 he's underdeveloped. This is a man who's presumably spent some time living a bit rough, a man who sold his body, after all, and had no one to trust. He's only now found adult role models who will foster him. (I assume that his folks are dead.) He grew up tremendously in the year between S1 and S2.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

1. I'm glad I'm not the only one. There are a lot of fans who, finding out that someone LIKES Gwen, get offended. Often on Ianto's behalf. Which leads me to

2. I don't find him sexy to look at but his voice is just gorgeous. I've said he's on my list of top ten fictional characters I wouldn't throw out of bed but he's only there for phone sex. I do enjoy his character because it's obvious that he's changing as time goes by. I think (and have sometimes relied on this for fics but never discussed it) that his relationship with Lisa was a teensy bit unhealthy for whatever reason. I think he went from a smothering family situation (which might explain his single conviction for shoplifting) to drifting about and then being recruited for Torchwood London (how did that happen to a drifter who accomplishes nothing, anyway?) and then into the relationship with Lisa. So now that he's over the Lisa thing (and he really does seem to be coming more and more out of that with each passing development) he's got to finish growing up, something he wasn't able to do up until now due to outside influences. I thought he was starting to bore me (how much subservient, even if he is snarky, Ianto can I take?) until he took the lead in kissing Jack in "To The Last Man." He's grown on me and no fungus comments, thank you very much.

Now that I've obsessed about Ianto a bit...

3. I rather liked Owen in S1. By S2 when he started getting more "human" I found him a bore. And then when he went into sentient zombiehood I gave up. I do worry that he'll be back, if not in S3 then in S4 because it's such a Doctor Who thing to do...

4. Word! I loved Tosh but her mooning over Owen was overplayed and completely unnecessary.

5. The funnier, lighter eps are great. A few sad ones are necessary and wonderful but after a while I start missing that grin on Jack's face. The gorgeous one that accompanied, "Hi, kids, did you miss me?"

6. I don't particularly miss time travel but I'd love to see more flashbacks to earlier times at Torchwood. The Doctor screwed up the vortex manipulator because he can't separate Jack the conman from Jack the head of the only decent branch of Torchwood. I think that's a small failing on the part of the writers. The Doctor seems able to accept the growth and change of everyone else but there's still that suspicion of Jack. Even when he offered to let Jack go with him at the end of LOTL, I got the feeling he was making the offer to the old Jack, that the Jack of Torchwood would eventually be a poor Companion and Jack knows it.

7. I disagree. I love that she and Rhys are married. The sexual tension between Jack and Gwen always seemed forced to me, and now it's obvious that as far as Jack is concerned, it's over. I wish Jack would flirt more, and even flirt with Gwen, but not with such heavy sexual overtones. I mean, the Doctor always says that with Jack, saying hi is flirting, and that's light hearted enough. He should be an enjoyable character, not one who might be trying to horn in on someone else's monogamous relationship just because he'll shag anything with a postal code.

8. Word! Again. More of the overt sexualness (is that even a word?) would be great. It doesn't have to be as overt as Owen and Diane, although that was amazing and so well directed and acted. But could we occasionally see Gwen and Rhys being interrupted in flagrante by someone's phone ringing? I loved the scene with Ianto and Jack in the hothouse, but that was about it for this season. It was disappointing.

9. This goes back to #2 and I've obsessed over Ianto enough for one comment.

10. I'll respectfully disagree. I think Jack on the Tardis makes sense in some circumstances but Jack as he is now belongs at the Hub AFAIC.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

#2. Do you have any of GDL's audiobook thingies? I have one. It's very.... nice. What a voice on him. *growl*

[auriaephiala.livejournal.com]

My most fervent wish:

I'd like Torchwood and Doctor Who characters to show less teeth, particularly the Doctor and Captain Jack. It seems to me that they're using teethful grimaces as a substitute for more subtle acting. It bugs me, especially since I know those actors are capable of (and actually do deliver) much better acting.

Maybe I should start the Society for Fewer Incisors in the DoctorWhoVerse?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that they're using teethful grimaces as a substitute for more subtle acting. It bugs me, especially since I know those actors are capable of (and actually do deliver) much better acting.

I can't disagree with that.

Maybe I should start the Society for Fewer Incisors in the DoctorWhoVerse?

SFID? Go for it!

I like it when Jack smiles, but ... in a search of icons from screencaps from Torchwood, it's been difficult to find pictures of him smiling.

[mslauren2930.livejournal.com]

I never did come to like Owen. I'm glad he's gone. He had some great stories, but he was never endearing. I'd rather see PC Andy than Owen, any day.

I will gouge my eyes out if Owen makes a return appearance in season/series 3, all 5 short episodes of it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't think you need to worry. I think Owen is permanently dead, gone, departed and deceased.

At least... I most certainly hope so.

[elinor-godwin.livejournal.com]

1) Yes! Absolutely. I adore Gwen. I don't always like her or what she does, but there it is. I love her tension scenes with Jack especially.

2) I get why some find Ianto sexy... and sometimes I find him so. But, most of the time... nope. Don't get it and don't get most of fandom's obsession with the man. I do enjoy the sexy boy-kissing very much, though.

3) I actually liked Owen. He grew on me. PC Andy rocks, though.

4) Word!

5) Word, again.

6) I'd like more aliens and less supernatural stuff. Time travel occasionally would be fun, though.

7) SB was in my top three this season. Adored it. I love Rhys, but I wish they hadn't gotten married.

8) Word. Word. Word. ITA with everything you wrote here.

9) I'd like to learn more about Ianto in the show, and have less fanwank about him. At the same time, I couldn't believe when some fans were saying about Fragments. So, Ianto was a bit of a drifter and not a perfect student. Big deal. But to seriously suggest that he altered his records - OMFG. Just deal with it, already!

10) I'd rather see the Captain Jack Harkness who appears in the TARDIS in the HUB, if you get my meaning. I love TW, but he's more fun on DW.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I adore Gwen. ... I love her tension scenes with Jack especially.

They can be just so delicious!

Don't get it and don't get most of fandom's obsession with the man. I do enjoy the sexy boy-kissing very much, though.

That pretty much sums up my attitude.

I'd like more aliens and less supernatural stuff.

Yes. I'd like to see more varieties of aliens, too. Maybe a friendly alien would be interesting. I really liked the "Border Prince" in the novel, for example.

I love Rhys, but I wish they hadn't gotten married.

I wish. I can live with it, though.

I couldn't believe when some fans were saying about Fragments.

I think a lot of people interpreted the information there more widely than I would have. Or loosely. Or something!

I'd rather see the Captain Jack Harkness who appears in the TARDIS in the HUB, if you get my meaning.

That's more or less what I was getting at... besides that I loved him as he was with the Doctor in series 1 of Doctor Who.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

1. Yes, I also. There are times I wish Gwen would step back and be invisible, but there are times when she is perfect and amazing. In "Random Shoes," when she is in the diner asking about the dead boy, and he's right there ranting at the cook that he always came in and ordered so-and-so, the cook finally tells her, sorry -- can't help you; want to order something or not? And without a pause she orders the same so-and-so, and I thought it was wonderfully charming.

2.No, Ianto isn't sexy. He's pretty, but he's not sexy. He needs a fuller life before he can seem sexy, to me at least.

3.I'm sorry, but I thought Owen was a waste of space. He seemed to be the token bi-boy-in-heat, and apparently was supposed to be attractive in an unusual way...? I never got used to his look -- too ... something or the other, for me.

4.OK, that was harsh, but totally speaks for me! I loved the potential in Toshiko Sato, and was highly disappointed to find how her character had been taken in the second season. She was so amazing in 1941!

5.There are some moods I'm in that I know I don't dare watch Torchwood -- so, yes, I agree with you here. And now I'm thinking of the Torchwood equivalent of "The Trouble with Tribbles," darn you for putting the idea in my head! Or, to be more fair, the Torchwood equivalent of the Farscape episode with D'Argo and Crighton trying to tell Pilot the story of their catastrophic visit to the pleasure planet... can't explain, you just have to have seen it. Hee.

6.Can't even imagine Torchwood without Jack having the ability to go zipping off in time when he feels the need. Hm. Odd thought. Did the Doctor really take away...?

7.I don't understand why they got married. For logical, human reasons, I guess, but... um. Yeah. Okay. Sure.

8.Yes! More orgies!!
More orgies, please.

Captain John would support me on this.

Okay, I'm kidding, sort of. But in series 2 they backed off the refreshingly open portayal of sex in series 1, and the series is a little more ordinary because of it. Moreover, with Gwen married to Rhys, Jack and Ianto acting like a couple, Owen first celibate then dead, some of the romantic suspense has gone from the show.

That about sums it up. Random encounters and things that branch off from them. Give me more of that!

9.Again... totally agree, Ianto needs more of a back-story. Now I'm gonna be thinking about this all night. Neat!

10. Oh, you. You just want to get him in bed with the Doctor. And I like that about you.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I thought it was wonderfully charming.

Yes. Gwen has such great moments. Sometimes I want to shake her or slap her - but that doesn't make me like her any less.

Besides, sometimes she's gorgeous.

And sometimes not.

Ianto: He's pretty, but he's not sexy.

He doesn't even seem pretty to me. He isn't ugly or anything, but I don't much like his looks.

now I'm thinking of the Torchwood equivalent of "The Trouble with Tribbles," darn you for putting the idea in my head!

LOL! That would be fun. Given the Buffy/Angel inspirations of the show, some people want the all-musical episode. John Barrowman would be in his element.

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<i>I thought it was wonderfully charming.</i>

Yes. Gwen has such great moments. Sometimes I want to shake her or slap her - but that doesn't make me like her any less.

Besides, sometimes she's gorgeous.

And sometimes not.

Ianto: <i>He's pretty, but he's not sexy.</i>

He doesn't even seem pretty to me. He isn't ugly or anything, but I don't much like his looks.

<i>now I'm thinking of the Torchwood equivalent of "The Trouble with Tribbles," darn you for putting the idea in my head! </i>

LOL! That would be fun. Given the Buffy/Angel inspirations of the show, some people want the all-musical episode. John Barrowman would be in his element.

<i.Can't even imagine Torchwood without Jack having the ability to go zipping off in time when he feels the need. Hm. Odd thought. Did the Doctor really take away...?</i>

The Doctor did, drat him. When Jack was abandoned in the Game Station he had his vortex manipulator, and used it to go to Cardiff in the early 21st century. But it burned out and he ended up in 1869, which about a century and a half to kill before he could see the Doctor again. (He knew this because of a tarot reading.) Eventually he found the Doctor again (in "Utopia"), and at the end of that episode, they had to go from the end of the universe to the present, but they didn't have the TARDIS. (Don't ask. Oh, well, ask if you want. Sad and tawdry story.) But Jack still had his vortex manipulator that didn't work. The Doctor fixed it with his sonic screwdriver and it took them back to the present in "The Sound of Drums".

At the end of "The Last of the Time Lords" Jack decided not to go travelling with the Doctor, and was heading back to the Hub when the Doctor said something like, "Can't have you wandering around with a working vortex manipulator," and zapped it with his sonic screwdriver, making it inoperable. I was furious with him - Jack had proved himself trustworthy in a thousand ways, he had just (a) died several times for the Doctor's sake
and (b) spent a year in captivity for him, being tortured. And that's how the Doctor repays Jack for all his heroic love and devotion! I was furious with him. I have forgiven him, but I certainly don't approve.

I like to think that The Doctor only did that so he would be easily able to find Jack whenever he wants hot gay Time Lord sex. I also like to think that Jack has fixed his vortex manipulator so it works just fine, but he hasn't told anyone else that it works.

The wrist band still works for finding alien tech and getting messages from Captain John, though not for time travel.

<i>You just want to get him in bed with the Doctor.</i>

True. And why not, hmm?

[kribban.livejournal.com]

re: who Ianto is.

When I played Sims it became quite clear to me:

Jack is a Romance sim (duh!)
Tosh is a Knowledge sim
Gwen is a Popularity sim
Owen is a Pleasure sim

and Ianto is a Family sim - i.e. he lives for having a significant other, be a part of a family unit, run a household, share affection etc. He had that with Lisa and had she not died he would still be with her. Jack stepped in to fill her shoes after her death. I suppose you could say Ianto needs to love, to care for, to be needed. Should Jack leave him he would need someone new.

Many people solve this problem by having babies, which is scary but obviously quite effective. :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack is a Romance sim (duh!)
Tosh is a Knowledge sim
Gwen is a Popularity sim
Owen is a Pleasure sim

I don't pay Sims so don't really know the significance, but I like that way of characterizing them.

Ianto is a Family sim - i.e. he lives for having a significant other, be a part of a family unit, run a household, share affection etc.

Yes, that seems to be his focus - taking care of the others. Even as a field operative, his concern in "Countrycide" was helping Tosh, and in "Meat", protecting Jack. He feels the pterodactyl, and want to bet he waters the plants in the Hub?

Jack stepped in to fill her shoes after her death.

I think Ianto also lieks a challenge.

Many people solve this problem by having babies, which is scary but obviously quite effective.

Rhys might fit this pattern. Gwen doesn't.

[mossymermaid.livejournal.com]

*cheers* *waggles pompoms*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hurrah and wave the champagne!

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

I love Gwen Cooper - not deeply, not unreservedly, sometimes more than at other times, but I so love her scenes. Especially her sexual tensions with Jack. Given that my TV-watching roots are in slash, this sometimes disturbs me.

I like Gwen. I don't love her anymore. She slipped a bit for me last season, and I want to see more of the confidence she had in the season finale stick around. I might come to love her then. And the tension with her and Jack... it bugs me. Mostly because having the male lead and the female lead deal with UST is so overdone and so often done. It's one of the things that makes the show more ordinary for me, and I don't want it to be ordinary. At all.

Or perhaps... I simply don't have enough sense of the relationship as a relationship. I don't understand it. I don't get any sense of what Jack feels about Ianto, and though Ianto's love of Jack is clear, it doesn't come across to me as romantic as I'd like it to be.

Dearly as I adore them together, I agree. I happen to actually find Ianto fairly sexy, but that largely came into play this season as he began to show more of a personality. Either way, I want more of a feel for Ianto and Jack. I want to know what they both expect from it. Does Ianto really think it's something exclusive? Permanent? Are they both just having fun? I'd like to know how THEY see it.

I never did come to like Owen. I'm glad he's gone. He had some great stories, but he was never endearing. I'd rather see PC Andy than Owen, any day.

I couldn't possibly agree more.

If the price of having Toshiko around was seeing her unrequited (or, worse, requited) love for Owen, I'm glad she's gone.

Once again, I agree wholeheartedly.

Though I love some of the sadder episodes (like "Sleeper"), I wish the tone of the show was lighter, and that Jack was flirtier and funnier.

I watch Season 1 of Doctor Who and I want my Jack back. He has flashes of fun, of sexiness... but that's the minority of the time. I know he's been through a lot since then, but.... I don't like how much he's changed. I don't like that he doesn't flirt as much and that he doesn't seem to have the same ability to connect with people he used to. He's probably closest to Ianto, and even with Ianto, I don't see anything approaching the warmth and caring he showed with the Doctor and Rose.

We've seen a fair amount of Gwen's private life, and touched on Owen's, Tosh's and even Jack's. But Ianto?

I think it would help the char, help his relationship with Jack, and just generally be more interesting if they fleshed him out more. They have the time. Fucking hell, TOSH got more development than Ianto's had, and it was all just so they could kill her. Sheesh.

Anyway... excellent thoughts, and I don't think any of it makes you a bad fan. I think at times these things make it an iffy show.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Very interesting comments.

Gwen won my heart in "Everything Changes" (where she was at her sexiest) and she never lost it, though there are scenes and even whole episodes where I thought she was an idiot. I thought she showed bad judgement in having an affair with Owen - not so much because of the infidelity involved, but because of the bad call in chosing Owen, who didn't even treat her well. I much preferred her attraction to Jack.

And the problem with the UST between her and Jack was that it was inconsistent and sometimes confusing, but I didn't mind that.

because having the male lead and the female lead deal with UST is so overdone and so often done

Here I am lucky in that I don't see much television and I haven't seen this done very often. In some of my favourites shows they did it and my problem is not that it was done, but that it was done incredibly badly - X-Files and Remington Steele are the shows I'm thinking of. My point being: I don't want Jack and Gwen to get together, I certainly don't want them to be any kind of a couple, but I do enjoy the UST and the teasing between them.

I want more of a feel for Ianto and Jack. I want to know what they both expect from it.

I'd agree totally, except I don't want to learn that Jack feels deeply and monogamously committed to Ianto. (I prefer other pairings for Jack.) So... I'd rather have the ambiguity than the certainty that it's the scenario I least want.

So I agree partly: I want to know a lot more about how they feel about each other, as long as it doesn't become a permanent marriage-like bond.

Given a more romantic writing of the relationship, I might change my mind on that point. But the way they have it now... no.

I watch Season 1 of Doctor Who and I want my Jack back.

Big sigh: Yes, oh yes, that's what I want. I want that Jack with a bit more maturity (but no less bravado), in the greatcoat and with the good haircut, at Torchwood. That's what I want.

even with Ianto, I don't see anything approaching the warmth and caring he showed with the Doctor and Rose.

I want to see that again.

Fucking hell, TOSH got more development than Ianto's had, and it was all just so they could kill her.

Very good point!

I think at times these things make it an iffy show.

I love the show with a passion; I figure that gives me all the more right to wish it was better.