Ten things that make me a really bad Torchwood fan...

[fajrdrako]

You know I love Torchwood, unless this is your first glance at my LJ. But sometimes I think I'm a really bad Torchwood fan, out of synch with most of the fandom. Why?

Ten things that make me a really bad Torchwood fan

1. I love Gwen Cooper - not deeply, not unreservedly, sometimes more than at other times, but I so love her scenes. Especially her sexual tensions with Jack. Given that my TV-watching roots are in slash, this sometimes disturbs me.
   
   
2. I don't find Ianto sexy. I like him a lot. Sometimes I love him, especially in "Cyberwoman", "Meat" and "Adam". I enjoy a lot of Jack/Ianto fic. I like to write about them, too. But I don't feel I have a handle on Ianto's character, and insofar as I understand it, it seems somewhat unformed and young. He had great moments, but they don't add up to a great character. Bottom line: I find him interesting, but not really sexy.
   
   Or perhaps... I simply don't have enough sense of the relationship as a relationship. I don't understand it. I don't get any sense of what Jack feels about Ianto, and though Ianto's love of Jack is clear, it doesn't come across to me as romantic as I'd like it to be. The Jack/Jack scenes were hotter and more romantic, to my eyes.
   
   This of course doesn't stop me from enjoying Ianto's snogging scenes with Jack.
   
   That being said, it seems to me that the Jack/Ianto laison keeps Jack from flirting or dating elsewhere, men or women or aliens, and that disappoints me.
   
   
3. I never did come to like Owen. I'm glad he's gone. He had some great stories, but he was never endearing. I'd rather see PC Andy than Owen, any day.
   
   
4. If the price of having Toshiko around was seeing her unrequited (or, worse, requited) love for Owen, I'm glad she's gone.
   
   
5. Though I love some of the sadder episodes (like "Sleeper"), I wish the tone of the show was lighter, and that Jack was flirtier and funnier.
   
   
6. I'd like more time travel. Why did the Doctor destroy Jack's vortex manipulator, anyway?
   
   
7. I'm somewhat sorry Gwen and Rhys married, even though I liked "Something Borrowed", and I love Rhys.
   
   
8. More orgies, please.
   
   Captain John would support me on this.
   
   Okay, I'm kidding, sort of. But in series 2 they backed off the refreshingly open portayal of sex in series 1, and the series is a little more ordinary because of it. Moreover, with Gwen married to Rhys, Jack and Ianto acting like a couple, Owen first celibate then dead, some of the romantic suspense has gone from the show.
   
   
9. We've seen a fair amount of Gwen's private life, and touched on Owen's, Tosh's and even Jack's. But Ianto? We haven't seen where he lives, or whether his parents are alive, or whether he has ever had any friends except Lisa. I'd like more. It would possibly make him seem more significant.
   
   
10. I'd rather see Captain Jack Harkness on the TARDIS than in the Hub.
    

Comments

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

1. Join me on that bus! It's kinda short, but there are still plenty of empty seats!

6. Because sometimes the Doctor's a bit of a patronizing bastard who knows what's best for EVERYONE? (Note: this does not interfere with my loving him.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Join me on that bus! It's kinda short, but there are still plenty of empty seats!

Happily there with you! Waving pom poms. Discreetly.

Because sometimes the Doctor's a bit of a patronizing bastard who knows what's best for EVERYONE?

Right.

I love the Doctor with a passion but I'm furious with him for his treatment of Jack.

The Doctor thinks he knows what's best for everyone, but he doesn't know what would be best for himself.

He's a lovable idiot savant.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

1. I adore Gwen! I have such a crush on Eve Myles. Those freckles... that accent... that sense of humor... unh.

8. Yes, and I would add subclause 8a: bring back the swearing, motherfuckers! I miss my foul-mouthed team, God damn it!

9. Word to the nth power. Perhaps with fewer principle players we'll get a taste of that in Season 3. Like thinning carrots: you end up with fewer carrots but the ones that are left are bigger and better. /random wtf simile

[rustydog.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on at least half of these, especially #2 (and 9 as a subset of 2, perhaps) and don't think you're a bad fan for any of them. :)

I like Gwen a lot and spent the first season feeling ashamed of myself somehow, because almost everybody I knew hated her. ::shrug:: I don't see what there is about the character to hate, and if it's about the amount of screen/story time she got, that's the writers, not the character. I do like the sexual tension with Jack (though I hope it stays UST for the most part) and I love every time her emotions ramp up. Because then her accent gets thicker and, well, it's a turn-on for me. *g*

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

I get very prickly over some attitudes to Gwen. The fact is, as she is the only Welshwoman in the team, she's the one I identify with; she's not much like me but she's very like a lot of my cousins and "cousins"*. And because of some very bad experieces we've all had, I can't get rid of the feeling that some of these people dislike her because she's a Welshwoman. It might be paranoia but it also might be that it isn't paranoia when people really are against you.

*Daughters of my parents' friends. If you grow up calling someone "Auntie", psychologically their children are your cousins. I was in my teens before I was sure which ones were biologically related to me and which weren't.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

2. It came as a surprise to me to discover that Ianto had an emotional life that didn't involve trainsets or stamp albums. My working hypothesis is that Jack is working on charming Ianto out of his shell.

7. South Welsh joke: "Married, is she? I didn't know she was pregnant!" "She isn't. "Ooo, there's posh!" Posh, Gwen is, man.

[msilverstar]

I like Gwen too, though I also like Rhys and want the sexual/emotional tension with Jack to never, ever, be consummated.

I'm with you on Ianto needing more depth. Snogging's great though!

Owen was refreshingly weird and abrasive. But I'd like PC Andy, who seems to be snarky and tough, to join the team.

The world needs more Tosh, preferably NOT PINING after ANYONE.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

The world needs Tosh, single and happy - or at least, single and not bothered. *wears asexuality on sleeve*

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

Agree w/ 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10

Would agree w/ 9 if it made me LIKE Ianto more ;)

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

You seem to be in good company with your flist! I'm about to re-embark on watching S2, so excuse me for getting carried away in replying - I'm in a thinky mood...

#1 & #7. I got very frustrating with the writing of Gwen in S1, and was delighted when she got some proper, meaty screen time in S2. Alas, I don't see the tension with Jack, but I don't have a problem with the writing of it. Besides, if I really hated a character, why would I watch the show? I do like that she and Rhys are married (and how awesome Rhys is), but it is kind of a shame - I can see Jack backing off a bit now, and although I don't see the chemistry, I will miss the flirting.

#2 & #9. Totally agree. I find Ianto tremendously difficult to get a handle on, because I have to extrapolate so much from so little evidence. S2 helped, but I still feel he's a bit of an enigma to me. I get round it by writing other's perspectives on him, or using him as a window on Jack, but I don't feel I have his voice yet.

#3. I didn't warm to Owen, although he was essential for the mix of the team. As one of them, I liked him. As a character in his own right, I just couldn't get interested.

#4. Since I wrote about halfway through the season that they should either give Tosh something to do or give her a noble death that actually meant something, I felt kind of guilty in the finale. Sorry to lose her, but it's better than wasting her.

#5 & #10. I like the darker Jack, although the slightly lighter tone of S2 Jack was easier to relate to. If Doctor Who didn't waste him as a character, I'd agree, but if all he's there to do is be a plot device, I'd rather keep him in Torchwood. The tone of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang struck me as just right, and it was kind of a shame that petered off by the third episode.

#6. Heh. Most unfair, wasn't it? But I can just imagine them looking at the Torchwood plot outlines and going "please don't make us do Time Travel too - we can't afford it!"

#8. *giggle* Yeah, they did, as they did with the swearing. It's one of those 50/50 things, where it gave them a bigger audience, and there were moments in S1 when I felt they were trying too hard to shock, but still. Would have been nice to see more.

I do sometimes feel that fandom is this huge thing that happens elsewhere, while I'm happily pottering around my flist nattering to people. It's certainly been much easier since I stopped watching the main communities...

[aeron-lanart.livejournal.com]

None of them make you a bad fan, you just have your own opinions.

I am not a Gwen hater as such, but she annoys me and if it wasn't for Owen would probably be my least favourite character. I like the characters we don't know as much about... Ianto and Tosh... as that gives my evil imagination a little more leeway, I just wish they hadn't made Tosh into an emotional wet blanket.

And I totally agree there should be more PC Andy. And orgies. Preferably at the same time.

[elebridith]

Lunchbreak's nearly over, so no ranty comment here *lol*
I like Gwen. Period. As you, not always the same, but her character in general, yes.
Liked Owen somehow. Liked to hate him, sometimes.
Like Ianto. Sexy? Hmmm... can't decide yet.

Oh, and different opinions are *good*. As long as one can have a civilized discussion about it and not a wank... *eyes other fandoms* *That* makes someone a bad fan, not having a different opinion! *nods*
Season Two comes out in July. *taps foot* I am spoiled, yes, but I want to *see*!!! *stares at the long line of non-watched DVDs and sighs* That's going to be a hard decision... *g*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Those freckles... that accent... that sense of humor... unh.

I love her hair. And the expression she gets when perplexed. There are so many things to love about Gwen.

bring back the swearing, motherfuckers! I miss my foul-mouthed team, God damn it!

Fuck, yes!

Perhaps with fewer principle players we'll get a taste of that in Season 3.

I'd like that.

Like thinning carrots: you end up with fewer carrots but the ones that are left are bigger and better. </i That's an encouraging thought, isn't it? Let's hope!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like Gwen a lot and spent the first season feeling ashamed of myself somehow, because almost everybody I knew hated her.

Yeah, me too. She so often rubs fans the wrong way. This puzzled me: they were being so hard on her, for essentially understandable human failings.

if it's about the amount of screen/story time she got, that's the writers, not the character

Yes. I too would rather see Captain Jack's story than Gwen's story. But it's like the Companions in Doctor Who: they feel compelled to give us a more mundane viewpoint character. This being the case, you could do a lot worse than Gwen.

I do like the sexual tension with Jack (though I hope it stays UST for the most part)

I think it will, since they've made a big deal in interviews about how she's going to be faithful to Rhys. This disappoints me a little as I was hoping for a cuddly threesome, kind of like we got at the end of "Exit Wounds" with Ianto instead of Rhys, but that's okay. I can live with the status quo. But I'd like to see Jack with a woman again, even if just in a fun-flirty way like with Martha.

I love every time her emotions ramp up. Because then her accent gets thicker and, well, it's a turn-on for me. *g*

Eee! Yes! Me too.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I get very prickly over some attitudes to Gwen.

Me too.

as she is the only Welshwoman in the team, she's the one I identify with

Yeah, I can understand that. The character I most identify with is Jack, so I get prickly about some attitudes to him - but I can easily identify with Gwen too, and I get defensive about her.

I can't get rid of the feeling that some of these people dislike her because she's a Welshwoman.

Oh dear. I never picked up on that. I don't know. I just want to scream at the Gwen-haters: show a little compassion and understanding! I don't know how much she's like me - probably more than I'd like to think. I don't have her type of emotionalism, but I do have something like her curiousity, her sense of sexual adventure, and her tenacity.

I was in my teens before I was sure which ones were biologically related to me and which weren't.

That sounds like a nice way to live.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It came as a surprise to me to discover that Ianto had an emotional life that didn't involve trainsets or stamp albums.

LOL. Good observation! The Ianto we glimpsed in "Frgments" - before he was reshaping himself into the man he thought Jack wanted - was rather intriguing, but I did wonder, "where did he come from?" Ianto has reshaped himself so often I don't know where the real Ianto is. The out-of-control obsessive of "Cyberwoman"? The would-be Bond-type of "Meat", with stun gun and style? The lonely, frightened soul of "Adam"? The smart-ass of "Sleeper"? I can only conclude "he's all of the above", but it doesn't give me much of a handle. I think that's why fans find him so easy to write; you can reshape him to taste at any moment.

I don't find him easy to write - all I can do is play him off Jack.

My working hypothesis is that Jack is working on charming Ianto out of his shell.

That works for me! Maybe he's looking for the inner Ianto, too.

South Welsh joke: "Married, is she? I didn't know she was pregnant!" "She isn't. "Ooo, there's posh!"

LOL! She was pregnant when she married, but it Wasn't Her Fault!

(Though her mother-in-law probably blames her anyway.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like Gwen too, though I also like Rhys and want the sexual/emotional tension with Jack to never, ever, be consummated.

I don't think it will be, so I don't think about it - except for a few stray het/threesome fantasies I don't need to admit to. [g] I like the UST and don't particularly care whether they ever have sex (not that they will, I'm just being theoretical here) - but I'd rather Jack showed interest in a woman outside Torchwood. What with his affair with Ianto and his yearning for Gwen, it's getting a little incestuous in the Hub.

Mind you, I never quite got over my desire to see a Gwen/Tosh relationship. That's my happy little alternate reality.

I'm with you on Ianto needing more depth. Snogging's great though!

Yes. Can't help liking a man who'll do anything, anytime with Jack. But I want more there. I'm not sure what more, but Ianto just doesn't make me catch my breath or smile at the sight of him. It embarrasses me dreadfully to have a show where the slash is handed to me on a round silver platter, and I'm finding the het UST with Gwen so sexy by comparison. It isn't the situation, it's the characters.

Owen was refreshingly weird and abrasive.I'd like PC Andy, who seems to be snarky and tough, to join the team.

I do hope we see more of him.

The world needs more Tosh, preferably NOT PINING after ANYONE.

Yes. I loved Tosh most when she was being strong and brave and independent. I hated her when she pined. That was why I hated the Tosh/Owen theme - not for itself, but because of it's affect on her. It brought out the worst in her. And in some ways, the worse in Owen.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The world needs Tosh, single and happy

Yes! That would have been nice to see.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Would agree w/ 9 if it made me LIKE Ianto more

I can't help thinking that more information can't hurt.

My impression is that what we're seeing with Ianto is a growing-up process. The problem being that at 26 or whatever he is, he should have a solidly-formed personality already. This makes me tend to think of him as a kid, which he isn't.

part 1 of another 2-part answer

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You seem to be in good company with your flist!

I don't think this is any kind of coincidence; I think they are on my flist (and, in many cases, I on theirs) because of like-minded thinking. I am not likely to be reading the LJs of the Gwen-haters, for example. I flinch and move away.

I'm about to re-embark on watching S2, so excuse me for getting carried away in replying - I'm in a thinky mood...

Oh, please do! I was thinking of watching both series, while I'm not back at work yet. Might do it.

#1 & 7 - how awesome Rhys is

I agree that Rhys is awesome. A wonderful character. As good as a boyfriend as a husband, though.

I will miss the flirting.

Me too. Though I think we'll still get some.

#2 & 9 - I find Ianto tremendously difficult to get a handle on, because I have to extrapolate so much from so little evidence.

Yes. And I don't quite fine Gareth David-Lloyd cute enough that it doesn't matter.

I get round it by writing other's perspectives on him, or using him as a window on Jack, but I don't feel I have his voice yet.

Exactly! Or conversely, I can slip him into any voice I want, and that isn't very satisfactory to me as a writer. It gives me nowhere to go with him except as an adjunct of Jack. It's so much fun when a slash hero is a full personality in his own right.

#3 - As one of them, I liked him. As a character in his own right, I just couldn't get interested.

I don't much like Burn Gorman, for all his excellent acting. Owen at first just wasn't sympathetic enough; when we found out why he was the way he was (unkind mother, dead fiancee) it wasn't quite interesting enough to redeem him. I thought he became, on the whole, less interesting and sympathetic as series 2 continued. I liked him in "Fragments", partly because of the surprise factor, but it was too little, too late, to integrate that into the story of Owen. Then he died for real, and I had the feeling that the inner Owen got lost in the shuffle somewhere.

Not a big problem: I didn't want a show about the inner Owen. Enough about Owen, already. I know other fans were tired of seeing Gwen onscreen. Owen is the one I got tired of rather quickly. And I particularly disliked him when Tosh was around, which, since they were tending to pair the two in series 2, just made it all worse for me.

What will they do for a gadfly on the team now? Captain John, perhaps? I think I would like that.

part 2 of another 2-part answer

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

#4 - Ah-hah, so it was all your fault! But seriously, I agree: since they weren't doing what I wanted them to do with the character, I am not sorry to see her gone. I wanted them to expand her character and get a little beyond the 'lonely computer geek' stereotype they'd wrapped around her. They hinted at more - her love of action, for example, and her passion for justice - but not often.

#5 & 10. he tone of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang struck me as just right, and it was kind of a shame that petered off by the third episode.

I agree absolutely, with the exception of the Jack/Ianto scene in the office, which - even though it was fun - was so much Jack playing a role and Ianto being pissy that it struck me as forced and not as much fun as it should have been. Somewhat out of character and insincere for both of them. I'd have played it very differently. (Hmm, is that a story idea?)

#6 - I can just imagine them looking at the Torchwood plot outlines and going "please don't make us do Time Travel too - we can't afford it!"

We got it a bit in flashbacks in "Adam" and "Fragments". I'll have to make do with that.

#8 - It's one of those 50/50 things, where it gave them a bigger audience, and there were moments in S1 when I felt they were trying too hard to shock, but still. Would have been nice to see more.

I'd settle for a compromise!

I do sometimes feel that fandom is this huge thing that happens elsewhere, while I'm happily pottering around my flist nattering to people.

That's a good way to look at it.

It's certainly been much easier since I stopped watching the main communities...

I never have time to read them a lot, because I prefer to spend time in more in-depth discussion with friends (like this). And when I do read the big communities, I find myself thinking, "Who are these people?" and "Are they watching the same show I am?"

As for Jack being wasted on Doctor Who - he wasn't wasted at all in series 1, he was in series 3, and I suspect he will be pretty much overlooked in series 4, though I hope for the best. Of course my fantasy-wish is for him to be on the TARDIS and not underused, underplayed, and undervalued. It's a nice fantasy, and I cling to it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

you just have your own opinions.

So I do, and don't we all?

Calling myself a 'bad fan' is really just a way of saying 'out of step with a lot of the popular fan opinions'. Which may or may not be the majority, who knows? Probably just the majority opinions of what I've been seeing.

she annoys me and if it wasn't for Owen would probably be my least favourite character.

Ah. Owen wins least-favourite for me, by far. Tosh probably comes second there - I loved her, but she didn't develop in the way I wanted her to at all. In fact, the characteristics I found most annoying in her were accentuated more and more in series 2, so I was actually glad to see her go rather than see more of the same. I liked her heroic death.

I totally agree there should be more PC Andy. And orgies. Preferably at the same time.

Works for me.

Great icon you have there.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Lunchbreak's nearly over, so no ranty comment here *lol*

I am disappointed. Ranty comments always welcome.

I like Gwen. Period. As you, not always the same, but her character in general, yes.

Yes. Bottom line: she's fun, she's sexy, she's smart in the right ways. And if she sometimes does dumb things, don't they all?

Liked Owen somehow. Liked to hate him, sometimes.

Yes. I still think my main problem with him was probably just that I don't like Burn Gorman, for all his talents. But Owen became more problematic for me as series 2 went on and the characterization became more inchoate.

As long as one can have a civilized discussion about it and not a wank... *eyes other fandoms* *That* makes someone a bad fan, not having a different opinion!

So true.

Season Two comes out in July

Good!

I fear I won't be able to afford it for a while, but... sooner or later.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

The problem being that at 26 or whatever he is, he should have a solidly-formed personality already. This makes me tend to think of him as a kid, which he isn't.
As a 26 year old (GDL's just a couple of months older than me), I feel entitled to say "yup" :D We're all a bit all over the place at times, but I do keep feeling the need to prod Ianto and ask "who are you?"

[rosiespark.livejournal.com]

Given that my TV-watching roots are in slash, this sometimes disturbs me.

This made me laugh out loud. Oh, do learn tolerance, infant.

I never did come to like Owen. I'm glad he's gone.

I liked Owen, and would rather have lost Ianto, who - gasp! - I find rather boring and not at all sexy (well, okay, very slightly sexy in combination with Captain Jack. But that's the Jack factor.). Now Owen slashed with Captain Jack would have been incendiary - all that snark and not-niceness and conflict - think of the scene where Jack forgives him and they hug...

I liked the fact that Owen was often not very nice. And I wanted more about why he was the way he was. More, I mean, than the sketchy dead-fiancee story that they eventually gave us.

Hmm. I think part of the reason I found Owen so interesting is that Burn Gorman is probably the best actor of the lot. Including, imo, John Barrowman who is okay as long as he has a strong actor to play against (Christopher Eccleston!) but who I tend to find unconvincing otherwise. Wow, that's two unpopular opinions in one short comment. I'm on a roll here!

PC Andy has potential, yes. I'll agree with you on that. :)