Dinosaurs and dogma...

[fajrdrako]

I was amused reading this illustrated commentary on the Creation Museum by John Scalzi.

Thing is, I can never really believe that anyone would believe in creationism. I read that they do. But it just never really strikes me as being possible that large numbers of people could be so stupid. Or that people with money and power would encourage it.

Comments

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

I had a friend tell me that Eve was created out of Adam's rib. I was incredulous, and couldn't think up of anything else to say other than "There is no way that Eve was created out of Adam's rib." Not even the metaphor argument.

Though, the photo essay was a fun read, if completely mind breaking.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I had a friend tell me that Eve was created out of Adam's rib.

I don't think I'd be able to think of an answer to that. I don't know what I'd say. I'd probably be hiding my face so she wouldn't see me laughing or crying!

I think it's good for me to be reminded from time to time that such beliefs exist, and are taken seriously by some people. It sounds like lore from another planet - but it isn't.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

why did God need a rib for that? I never understood, wasn't he supposed to be omnipotent?

ARRRGH!!!!!

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Creationism and "intelligent design" make me want to scream and then claw my eyes out. Hence iconage.

But if you want to read another article, here's an older ona about the museum here (http://templeofpolemic.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=theo&action=print&thread=1130126466).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What a beautiful icon! But - heh - you knew that.

Also, that's a fascinating article, that picks up on two of the aspects of our society these days that my own pet bugaboos: anti-intellectualism and the loss of belief in expertise; and the triumph of rhetoric over reason.

The best bit:

in Dover, Pennsylvania, during one of these many controversies, a pastor named Ray Mummert delivers the line that both ends our tour and, in every real sense, sums it up:

"We've been attacked," he says, "by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

And there it is.

Though I try to (generally) keep politics out of my LJ, and try not to rant about The Things That Bug Me, I'm tempted to go on at length about this.... and the kind of second-rate culture this is creating, in which people can graduate from school without learning, where myths are considered facts, and cultural chauvinism is applauded.

Faugh.

Great article, though. Thanks for the link.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

...

That is a fascinating (and frightening) article, which I hadn't seen before. Just wanted to second the thanks for it. I too sometimes forget that creationism is still very much regarded as 'real' by so much of the population-- in fact, I tend to forget it exists at all. I suppose I owe my thanks to living in a large city and attending a public school staffed by flaming liberals; in high school biology class, it had a mandatory mention, which was done rather flippantly by the teacher.

Also, since you quoted that particular bit, I thought I'd pop in here and apologize on behalf of my state.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

And I'd like to third the thanks.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

*grins* The icon seemed appropriate - and pretty, in a bloody kind of way.

I find the second-rate culture you mentioned deeply alarming. It's like some people are having a reverse renaissance, where the goal is to be more close-minded and ignorant.

The rhetoric over reason is an interesting part of the issue - I can't remember if it was the article I linked or not but I remembering reading something about how it is much easier for the rhetoric side to get good memorable arguments because the scientific ideas that refute them tend to be more complex and subtle. So the creationist side can use the "but how on could anything as complicated as an eyeball have evolved in stages, that means at halfway through there was only half an eye" argument and everyone can easily see that is ridiculous, while the scientific explanation isn't nearly so snappy because it has to be explained.

Sigh.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

I find it interesting that the conflict of interest/belief is specifically between Christians and Creationsists. I mean, I haven't heard of anyone saying "No! God didn't create the Earth! Eagle made the earth from mud that Crawfish found under the water." (Tuskugee Creation Myth, extremely abbreviated). Or, say "Paleontologists have it all wrong. Izanagi and Izanami created people after Heaven and Earth were separated." (Shinto, very very incomplete).

Buddhists consider the whole question impossible, which I think may be the most sensible path.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Christians and Creationists

oops. I meant, Christians and accepted scientific theory.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Here in the UK, more of the Creationists are Muslim than Christian, I think.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I think this kind of literalism is a particular problem of some sectors of the Middle Eastern monotheisms, partly because monotheism has an inherent tendency to intolerance and aversion to diversity, partly because they are all fixated on texts. Textual obsessiveness in some quarters. In Christianity, its current manifestations are actually fairly modern, and spring very much from 19C Evangelicalism. There were – and are – always people who are scared by change, uncertainty, knowledge advancing, and feel threatened by it. They retreat and build these walls of certainty around themselves.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I imagine there are as many creation myths as there are cultural groups. More, maybe. And frankly, I like Tuskugee creationism any more than the Christian variety. Its only superiority is in the fact that it doesn't have the power to influence political decision-makers.

This is not to say that I find creation myths uninteresting. Just that I don't want them confused with reality.

[jkluge.livejournal.com]

That was hilarious and gave me a pounding headache at the same time.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes - me too! Both farcical and terrifying.

I particularly like the saddled dinosaur.

kids

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

I once heard someone say (on the radio) that the creation story was inherrently more appealing the the evolution one and that no kids could feel stimulated by the idea of evolution. Well I no for certain that isn't true. I've done a lot of baby sitting and one of my charges was a 5 year old boy with a passion for dinosaurs. He had dinosaur books and toys and liked to talk dinos. One day we were reading a book that showed a dinausaur next to a tall building. "look how big the dinosaur is!!"he exclaimed. And even though he was only 5 I couldn't help but say "but there were no buildings when the dinosaurs lived" he nodded. Once there were no humans he said. And then, no longer according to scientific canon "we used to be apes once, papa and mama and Sophie and me lived in a tree" and then he looked at me "and you lived in a tree near by".
I also heard Sophie and her friends discuss what was there befor the earth and wheter there were bacteria because they were realy realy small so that could be.
In their own way I think they are more scientifically minded that the creationist folk.

Re: kids

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Most kids I know love dinosaurs! And in that article, the man with the Creation Museum (obviously a fine salesman) said that kids always love dinosaurs.

In fact, no kid I know has any problem with the idea of evolution at all, and I've yet to meet a kid who was excited over the idea of Adam and Eve. Not that I've talked to any about it.

"You lived in a tree near by" - that's cute!

In their own way I think they are more scientifically minded that the creationist folk.

Definitely more rational: they were thinking about things, and looking at the implications.

[iibnf.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind 50% of the population is, by definition, below average.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

True enough: but it sometimes looks as if 50% of the population is way, way below average. Maybe because the rest of the world isn't setting a good enough example?

I think what bothers me is not the stupidity per se, but the notion of all these people, and school systems, and preachers, teaching people that they shouldn't encourage rational thought and observation.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

The first time I tripped over an Evangelist was in 1976, in college (Parson's School of Design in NYC.) (Other than Flip Wilson doing his Reverend Ike routine, evangelism didn't really have a lot of cultural exposure back then.) She was a fellow freshman Illustration student and was pretty, blonde, blue-eyed, and had been an ex-cheerleader in high school. She seemed nice and completely normal. One day we were sitting around before class and she informed me that someday she'd be standing on a balcony with a lookout over hell, and that she'd be watching the sinners gnashing their teeth in the flames down below. The way she said it made the experience memorable because the look in her eye was... unhealthy. She really got off on it and was quite smug. I was relatively innocent and inexperienced at that point but even I could tell that there was something darkly unpleasant inside her. She seemed invested in the idea that she'd be exalted and up on high over the downcast people below, better than everyone and everything else, and I think that's a key to this mindset.

It's *difficult* to become an intelligent, well-educated, open minded person; you have to read and discuss and *think*, and that takes work. Part of becoming a thinking person is courting failure and taking a chance on being wrong, but working towards better understanding -- and one of the things creationists use to discount the Theory of Evolution is there's still discussion going on and sometimes bits of the theory are discounted by other scientists. They count that a *flaw*, when it's nothing of the sort: it's how Science works.

It's mentally and emotionally comforting to be able to sit back and assume that you are better than everyone else simply because God (who is your buddy!) and The Book tell you that you are. Because you Have Faith and Believe, all others are beneath you, and that's where they want to be.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's it: the sense of superiority and election, which is not based on ability. They like to think that everyone else is damned.

It's not just the religious. I've also encountered this with some vegetarians and vegans who like to think their dietary preferences make them morally superior in every respect, and act all smug, looking down their noses at you.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

she informed me that someday she'd be standing on a balcony with a lookout over hell, and that she'd be watching the sinners gnashing their teeth in the flames down below.

That sounds downright sadistic.

The way she said it made the experience memorable because the look in her eye was... unhealthy. She really got off on it and was quite smug.

How nice to feel superior for no paticular reason except because you can!

It's *difficult* to become an intelligent, well-educated, open minded person; you have to read and discuss and *think*, and that takes work.

Yes, and you have to think that work is worth it in the first place. If you have a religion that tells you that there is value in not doing that, that the educated are bad because they believe in metaphor rather than literalism - that there is a value in not thinking at all, just believing -

Well, actually, that's terrifying. Even more terrifying to think that people who do believe this seem to be controlling the government of the richest and most powerful nation on earth.

[jkluge.livejournal.com]

One day we were sitting around before class and she informed me that someday she'd be standing on a balcony with a lookout over hell, and that she'd be watching the sinners gnashing their teeth in the flames down below. The way she said it made the experience memorable because the look in her eye was... unhealthy.

Sounds like just the sort of follower the Nazis would have loved. I agree -- those people are scary. And George W. Bush *is* one of those people, *exactly* like her. He believes he's one of the pre-ordained Chosen Ones, from what I hear about his particular branch of Christianity. That's why we're all so comfortable about his viewpoint and motivations, NOT.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Wow. Just finished the article. I did not know people could be that stupid.

I'm gonna go, um, I don't know. Cry?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Crying or laughing would be the two obvious options.

Or maybe just a small wail of anguish.