World Enough and Time

Creationism and "intelligent design" make me want to scream and then claw my eyes out. Hence iconage.

But if you want to read another article, here's an older ona about the museum here (http://templeofpolemic.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=theo&action=print&thread=1130126466).

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I had a friend tell me that Eve was created out of Adam's rib.

I don't think I'd be able to think of an answer to that. I don't know what I'd say. I'd probably be hiding my face so she wouldn't see me laughing or crying!

I think it's good for me to be reminded from time to time that such beliefs exist, and are taken seriously by some people. It sounds like lore from another planet - but it isn't.

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I find it interesting that the conflict of interest/belief is specifically between Christians and Creationsists. I mean, I haven't heard of anyone saying "No! God didn't create the Earth! Eagle made the earth from mud that Crawfish found under the water." (Tuskugee Creation Myth, extremely abbreviated). Or, say "Paleontologists have it all wrong. Izanagi and Izanami created people after Heaven and Earth were separated." (Shinto, very very incomplete).

Buddhists consider the whole question impossible, which I think may be the most sensible path.

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Christians and Creationists

oops. I meant, Christians and accepted scientific theory.

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silverwhistle.livejournal.com

Here in the UK, more of the Creationists are Muslim than Christian, I think.

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OK, good to know. I guess I'm used to the whole Fundamentalist Right-Wing Christians in the US. :)

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silverwhistle.livejournal.com

I think this kind of literalism is a particular problem of some sectors of the Middle Eastern monotheisms, partly because monotheism has an inherent tendency to intolerance and aversion to diversity, partly because they are all fixated on texts. Textual obsessiveness in some quarters. In Christianity, its current manifestations are actually fairly modern, and spring very much from 19C Evangelicalism. There were – and are – always people who are scared by change, uncertainty, knowledge advancing, and feel threatened by it. They retreat and build these walls of certainty around themselves.

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What a beautiful icon! But - heh - you knew that.

Also, that's a fascinating article, that picks up on two of the aspects of our society these days that my own pet bugaboos: anti-intellectualism and the loss of belief in expertise; and the triumph of rhetoric over reason.

The best bit:

in Dover, Pennsylvania, during one of these many controversies, a pastor named Ray Mummert delivers the line that both ends our tour and, in every real sense, sums it up:

"We've been attacked," he says, "by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

And there it is.

Though I try to (generally) keep politics out of my LJ, and try not to rant about The Things That Bug Me, I'm tempted to go on at length about this.... and the kind of second-rate culture this is creating, in which people can graduate from school without learning, where myths are considered facts, and cultural chauvinism is applauded.

Faugh.

Great article, though. Thanks for the link.

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I meant, Christians and accepted scientific theory.

I'm not sure you weren't at least partially correct the first time. I know lots of people who consider themselves Christians who are not creationists, who think about creationism pretty much what I do, and who see no conflict between a belief in God and a belief in science.

It's when the one gets in the way of the other that we have a problem.

What's the quote on your icon from? It's good.

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I imagine there are as many creation myths as there are cultural groups. More, maybe. And frankly, I like Tuskugee creationism any more than the Christian variety. Its only superiority is in the fact that it doesn't have the power to influence political decision-makers.

This is not to say that I find creation myths uninteresting. Just that I don't want them confused with reality.

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And no more palatable because of it!

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We tend to hear more about them, but I think just about every religion has its fundamentalist faction.

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partly because monotheism has an inherent tendency to intolerance and aversion to diversity, partly because they are all fixated on texts.

I think you've put your finger on it. It isn't even a matter of "the spirit of the religion" compared to "the text of the holy book"; it becomes a matter of worshipping the text of the book rather than the religion.

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halfspokenwords.livejournal.com

...

That is a fascinating (and frightening) article, which I hadn't seen before. Just wanted to second the thanks for it. I too sometimes forget that creationism is still very much regarded as 'real' by so much of the population-- in fact, I tend to forget it exists at all. I suppose I owe my thanks to living in a large city and attending a public school staffed by flaming liberals; in high school biology class, it had a mandatory mention, which was done rather flippantly by the teacher.

Also, since you quoted that particular bit, I thought I'd pop in here and apologize on behalf of my state.

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George Bernard Shaw to T.E. Lawrence, in a letter.

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Yes, I hear you there. I've read so many creation myths and religious texts that I sort of see Christianity and other "living" religions today as... more stories. I myself am not religious, and I'm not trying to say anything about any current religion- just, in my perspective, they're all stories. Important stories, yes, interesting stories, yes. Influential? Definitely. But still stories.

I often wonder what this will all look like in a few thousand years. Will there be a new set of major religions? Will the Bible be relegated to the Mythology section, next to the Mabinogion and the Kalevala?

I'm totally rambling here, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I sometimes have a hard time understanding that other people don't see this stuff as stories or even metaphors (although I'm sure plenty of believers read their texts as metaphorical guides, moral tales).

That's just my perspective. I know it doesn't line up with much, but, hey. I'm not forcing it on anyone but my literature profs, and they seem to like it. ;p

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And I'd like to third the thanks.

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the-blue-fenix.livejournal.com

There's that conflict, too. It's fairly common for kids raised in those hermetically-sealed worldviews to decide, when they get a look at real biology, "well sh*t, then the rest of the things my church told me must've been total crap too."

The fundies set themselves up for it, of course. They specifically state that if creationism (whatever brand they favor) isn't God's Own Truth, then the rest of the Bible is meaningless. Apparently "love your neighbor" doesn't stand up on its own merits in their eyes.

I'm always suspicious of a religion that pays lots of attention to what God hates (gays, abortion, and evolution apparently) and not a thought to what God loves.

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*grins* The icon seemed appropriate - and pretty, in a bloody kind of way.

I find the second-rate culture you mentioned deeply alarming. It's like some people are having a reverse renaissance, where the goal is to be more close-minded and ignorant.

The rhetoric over reason is an interesting part of the issue - I can't remember if it was the article I linked or not but I remembering reading something about how it is much easier for the rhetoric side to get good memorable arguments because the scientific ideas that refute them tend to be more complex and subtle. So the creationist side can use the "but how on could anything as complicated as an eyeball have evolved in stages, that means at halfway through there was only half an eye" argument and everyone can easily see that is ridiculous, while the scientific explanation isn't nearly so snappy because it has to be explained.

Sigh.

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It's alarming, isn't it? I find the idea of creationism being taught as anything other than a religious idea to be deeply disturbing.

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You're welcome - I found the article alarming but fascinating so I made sure to bookmark it.

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wijsgeer.livejournal.com

why did God need a rib for that? I never understood, wasn't he supposed to be omnipotent?

ARRRGH!!!!!

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jkluge.livejournal.com

That was hilarious and gave me a pounding headache at the same time.

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