Plotting...

[fajrdrako]

This evening I went to a NaNoWriMo plotting workshop at the public library. And it was very useful.

In manageable groups, we discussed our general plot and and our plotting problems, and did some brainstorming on the subject. I don't know about the others, but for me it was extremely useful. I talked about my story - historical adventure - and the comments, questions and suggestions really helped me put a shape to my ideas.

At one point, though, diurnal_lee said, as we discussed my story ideas, "I keep thinking of Francis Crawford."

Headdesk.

Really. I'm trying to write original, fresh, creative stuff. moved by all sorts of influences. And the influence of Dorothy Dunnett is so strong it shows up in casual conversation about my story?

I'm not sure whether to wail or be proud.

Comments

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

a three-month solo cross-country automobile trip, from here (near Seattle) to Vermont, then down the east coast to Florida, then across to California

That sounds wonderful! It sounds rather like the trip Bill Bryson took, too. (I forget which book that was.) Your planned trip sounds terrific. I love the Maritimes - hope to go back there some time.

I like L.M. Mongomery well enough, though I really haven't read a lot of her works. Don't like Margaret Atwood at all and stopped reading her out of patriotic duty some time ago. This is not to say I dislike all her books - I was quite impressed by The Handmaid's Tale - but I really don't like her writing style. Pierry Berton is fun but not exciting. The guy who wrote Never Cry Wolf is Farley Mowat, and he's great.

My favourite Canadian writers are Jane Rule (who writes about Lesbian and gay characters in BC), Antonine Maillet (who writes Acadian fantasy-comedy), Karin Lowachee (who writes SF), Guy Gavriel Kay (who writes historically-based fantasy), Miriam Toews, and William Gibson (who writes Cyberpunk).

I had a fair number of British authors ruined for me in college as well.

I managed to avoid all that! Though I do recall a fill-in teacher in first year university making us read William Blake. I hated William Blake. The rest of the world finds him charming and I find him twee.

Yes, I meant William Golding - I think I was thinking of The Inheritors, which I liked a lot. I also like the books of William Goldman, whom I have read but not studied, and ditto his brother James Goldman, who wrote The Lion in Winter and other great things. The Goldmans were American.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I adore Bill Bryson, but I didn't run across his peripatetic books until after I made my own long trip. The one about his trip across America was called The Lost Continent, but my favorite Bryson of all time is Notes from a Small Island. I don't think I've ever laughed so hard at a book in all my life.

L.M. Montgomery was a childhood favorite for me, who has held up over the years (unlike many books in that category). I also thought that the first of the fairly recent PBS/CBC versions of the Anne books was done very well, although the second and third ones didn't stick with the books and went very rapidly downhill.

Thanks for the author recommendations (makes notes). I've read one William Gibson and didn't much care for him, but your one-line descriptions of some of the others look very interesting.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I haven't read Notes from a Small Island yet. My favourite Bill Bryson by far was Mother Tongue, which was the first one I read. But I've liked them all.

I haven't read much William Gibson, but what I read, I found interesting. Not interesting enough to want to read a lot of them, but there was an originality and vividness to them that I loved. Quite un-Canadian, actually. I find Canadian novels tend to be rather too introspective. We are a nation of novelistic navel-gazers.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

You've been to the UK, right? Then you must read Notes from a Small Island. Truly. I liked Mother Tongue, but not nearly as much. I liked his big fat book about "Nearly Everything," too, but it's much more serious.

We are a nation of novelistic navel-gazers.

Is that true of Canadian genre fiction, or just the lit-ra-choor? Because American lit-ra-choor can navel-gaze with the best of 'em.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You've been to the UK, right?

Yup. Did my postgraduate degree there.

I liked his big fat book about "Nearly Everything," too, but it's much more serious.

Agreed.

Is that true of Canadian genre fiction, or just the lit-ra-choor?

Just the lit-ra-choor, I guess, though we seem to have porportionalety more highbrow CanLit (which I find very dull) and fewer genre writers. Or sometimes there's no way to judge whether the genre writer is Canadian or not. For example, would I know Jo Beverley was Canadian if I didn't know her? I don't think I would. Ditto, maybe, Guy Gavriel Kay. Unless the story is set in Canada, or about Canada, it becomes a non-issue.

As, in a way, it should be: to some extent I think judging works by their nationality of origin is unwise and even misleading. On the other hand, there are national tendencies which reflect the tendencies of the writers as a group, though not necessarily individually.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Unless the story is set in Canada, or about Canada, it becomes a non-issue.

True. I was very surprised to find out that Jo Beverley lives just across Puget Sound from me in Victoria. She writes so, er, British [g]. Then again, Victoria is supposed to be more British than Britain (actually, it's just the tourist areas, and they're just more a caricature of Britain than Britain [g] -- not that it's not a very enjoyable place to visit).

So what's your favorite genre fiction set in Canada? Anybody besides Charles de Lint? (who is not my favorite, unfortunately) You mentioned someone who wrote magical realism set in the Maritimes. Anyone else?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I was very surprised to find out that Jo Beverley lives just across Puget Sound from me in Victoria. She writes so, er, British [g].

She was raised in England, so she comes by it honestly. I got to know her when she lived in Ottawa.

Victoria is supposed to be more British than Britain

So I've heard - though I'm not sure I've ever heard a British person say it.

what's your favorite genre fiction set in Canada?

Karin Lowachee. (SF)

Anybody besides Charles de Lint? (who is not my favorite, unfortunately)

I'm not into Charles de Lint's novels myself, though I like him personally, and I like his music. I read Moonheart and was bored, so didn't read any more. I've always thought I might try again with another book, but with so much to read, it's not a high priority.

Anyone else?

Guy Gavriel Kay, whose style I love, though I think his books vary in quality. (They're fantasy.) I enjoyed that mystery novel I recently read, set in Saskatoon, by Anthony Bidulka.

I'll see if I can think of more.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I was looking at the catalog records for Karin Lowachee, but her books aren't set in Canada -- at least the three my library has aren't (Warchild, Cagebird, and Burndive). Any who write genre fiction set in Canada? (the library doesn't have Bidulka, alas).

I heard Charles de Lint in concert at Foolscap (a con in Seattle in September), and I like his music alright -- nothing to write home about, but pleasant.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

No, Karin Lowachee's books aren't set in Canada, they're set in a futuristic Earth-based empired. Texas get mentioned - one of the characters is from Texas. I can't think where else.

Several mystery writers (e.g., Gail Bowen, Susan Wittig Albert) write mysteries set in Canada, but I'm not really a fan of their books - they're okay but dull. I was told last week about a writer who sets her novels in and around Ottawa, but I haven't tracked her down yet - I'm waiting for my friend to give me her name.

I believe Tanya Huff writes SF and fantasy set in Toronto.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Susan Wittig Albert's books are set in Texas, unless she's writing another series I don't know about besides the China Bayles books. I like that series, but I'm woefully behind on it. She lives in Texas, I do know that.

I don't recognize Gail Bowen. Tanya Huff is too gory for me, or at least the one book I tried back when she was writing romantic suspense was.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Susan Wittig Albert's books are set in Texas, unless she's writing another series I don't know about besides the China Bayles books.

Then I am confusing her with a Toronto author named Albert - or something like that. Give me a while and my burdened brain will probably come up with it. I have read one of her books, and didn't like it. But the idea was interesting: the protagonist had been a prominent judge in the Toronto court systems, who'd chucked the system and was now homeless and living in the ravine. Sadly, he turned out to be not very interesting otherwise. A book by the person I'm thinking of, I mean, not SWA, whom I clearly haven't read, just confused her with someone else.

Gail Bowen's books are set, I think, in southern Saskatchewan. I read a couple. Wasn't impressed. Another dull protagonist.

I haven't read Tanya Huff at all yet.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Nothing more off-putting, IMHO, than a dull protagonist. Since I read for character, pretty much full stop.

Thanks for the warning [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I read for character too, and I tend to like characters who are vivid and outrageous - Miles, Lymond, Eugenides, and other of that type - to those who are dull.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Eugenides???

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The hero of Megan Whalen Turner's novels, The Thief (http://cdn.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/6/9780060824976.jpg), The Queen of Attolia (http://cdn.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/9/9780060841829.jpg) and The King of Attolia (http://cdn.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/4/9780060835774.jpg). They are high on the list of "books I have loved", in large part because of my love of the hero, Gen.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Ah. Another series that everyone but me raved about. I tried the first one, and it just didn't do a thing for me.

Oh, well.

Thanks for the info.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So it goes! There's many a series that I react in that way to, wondering where eveyone else sees the joy. The Jim Butcher books, for example.

I like the was Megan Whalen Turner uses words, and the way her plots have lavers of revelation. This works less well when you guess the 'big reveal' right away, but it's a kind of plot structure that I love.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

And you can count me in the tally of Jim Butcher fans. At least of Harry Dresden. The Calderon books left my dry after the first chapter. But I got hooked on Harry through the television series that -- alas -- only lasted one season on the SciFi channel, and the books are just as enjoyable. I like Harry's attitude, probably more than anything else about the books. The setting is very real, too.

I never got past about the first half-dozen chapters of Turner, so maybe at some point I should give her another try, the way you say you're going to give Amelia another shot [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like Dresden's attitude, too - but I didn't like the style or the plot of the first book. It was a little disappointing, but hey, so it goes.

Yes, of course I'll give Amelia another shot. If you don't like MWT's style you may never take to the Eugenides books, though it was the combination of plot (unfolding) and character (outstanding) that pulled me in. I found Eugenides rather Miles-like.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I found Eugenides rather Miles-like.

So many have said [wry g]. If I had a nickel for every time someone's recommended a book to me because "the hero is like Miles" and he has turned out not to be at all like Miles in my perception, we could go out for a very nice lunch. Oh, well.

Miles-like heroes are much fewer and farther between than most people seem to think [g]. I can count on the fingers of one hand (with fingers left over) the heroes I've read who truly fit that category. Including Miles himself.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So who do you count as being Miles-like? Miles is IMHO unique so I wouldn't say anyone was like him, exactly, but a few other heroes fit the same sort of emotional niche in my reading perceptions.

Though now that I say this I can't think of any others.

I think what I mean is not so much that any other character resembles Miles, they don't, but that they are unlike all other heroes and so fit a special category of "distinct" and "unique". While all other heroes, including most of my favourites (and Aral himself) are neither unique nor prototypes.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

The only other hero I count as filling that emotional niche, as you say, is Ramses Emerson. And he's not a prototype, by any means, or unique. He just hits my emotional buttons in a similar way. I'd give my eyeteeth for more heroes like Miles or Ramses. Which is why when people who like either one say, oh, this hero is like one or the other of them, I leap on it and am usually disappointed in the recommendation [sigh].

This has been going on for quite some time for me -- I used to belong to a librarians' listserv called Fiction-L (http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html) which specializes in readers' advisory, librarian-speak for helping people find good books to read (as opposed to reference, helping them find the answers to their questions). They do a lot of what they call "readalike" lists, an "if you like that, you'll like this" sort of thing. The only time I've ever seen them stumped is when they've been asked for readalikes for the Vorkosigan series. AAMOF, when the question was posed, Diana Tixier Herald, who is one of the gurus of readers' advisory, said, point blank, there is no one like Miles. Which frustrated me no end [g].

She did redeem herself, though, by describing Miles, in her book Genreflecting, as the sexiest, most charismatic man in this or any galaxy -- under five feet tall. So I suppose that's something...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

They do a lot of what they call "readalike" lists, an "if you like that, you'll like this" sort of thing.

For a while my library was giving out bookmarks with lists like that - starting out, say, "If you like John Grisham, try...." and then a list of other authors whom they thought had thematic or stylistic similarities.

I love that. But when I actually try to read any such list, I am invariably disappointed, and don't find the books similiar to those I like in significant ways. For instance, there are a few over-the-top historical romance novels in which the hero was modelled on Lymond. Are they "like Dorothy Dunnett"? Yes, but only in the ways that don't matter. The books that are "like Dorothy Dunnett" tend to be either by authors she was inspired by (Sabatini, Orczy, Sayers, Heyer) or which were inspired by her (Guy Kay, Mary Doria Russell, Margaret Ball).

Bujold has so many different influences... It isn't really that there's anything so different about her books, except their quality, and the distinctive nature of Miles. There's no one exactly like Miles, no, nor should there be. That would be plagiarism. But there are heroes who are similarly clever and resourceful. Some of them even clever, resourceful, and handicapped.

Though Georgette Heyer is a totally different genre and style from Bujold, she has something of the same writing strengths - no clever, resourceful heroes of the Miles type, though; and her females are more reminiscent of Shakespeare or Austin than Bujold.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

For a while my library was giving out bookmarks with lists like that

And ten to one they were getting the content for them from either the Canadian Library Association, or, more likely, Fiction-L. Librarians are no more fond of reinventing the wheel than anyone else [g].

when I actually try to read any such list, I am invariably disappointed

Precisely. And when I say that I'm looking for another series that has the same things in common that the Amelias and the Miles books have in common with each other, people just do the online equivalent of staring at me like I've got two heads. As if the Amelias and the Miles books can't possibly have anything in common just because their settings are so different.

But there are heroes who are similarly clever and resourceful.

But you know, I don't think even that's what's relevant. What's relevant to me is that they're whole, rounded, imperfect people having bigger than life adventures, not that they happen to have certain character traits.

And Heyer. Ptui. Sorry. I have the feeling that the main reason I don't like Heyer (aside from her writing style, which just annoys me) is that she doesn't do those whole, rounded, imperfect people having bigger than life adventures. She does these mincing socially correct people being clever at each other.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

ten to one they were getting the content for them from either the Canadian Library Association, or, more likely, Fiction-L

This is probably true! I meet a lot of librarians online, in the reading-themed mailing lists.

What's relevant to me is that they're whole, rounded, imperfect people having bigger than life adventures, not that they happen to have certain character traits.

I think you're right. I think I can even narrow it down further to characters who are convincing, regardless of whatever their attributes are. "Attractive" in some way - being entertaining - is a bonus, too, but that can be done in an infinite number of different ways. Probably each author, and each book, does it differently.