Plotting...

[fajrdrako]

This evening I went to a NaNoWriMo plotting workshop at the public library. And it was very useful.

In manageable groups, we discussed our general plot and and our plotting problems, and did some brainstorming on the subject. I don't know about the others, but for me it was extremely useful. I talked about my story - historical adventure - and the comments, questions and suggestions really helped me put a shape to my ideas.

At one point, though, diurnal_lee said, as we discussed my story ideas, "I keep thinking of Francis Crawford."

Headdesk.

Really. I'm trying to write original, fresh, creative stuff. moved by all sorts of influences. And the influence of Dorothy Dunnett is so strong it shows up in casual conversation about my story?

I'm not sure whether to wail or be proud.

Comments

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Susan Wittig Albert's books are set in Texas, unless she's writing another series I don't know about besides the China Bayles books.

Then I am confusing her with a Toronto author named Albert - or something like that. Give me a while and my burdened brain will probably come up with it. I have read one of her books, and didn't like it. But the idea was interesting: the protagonist had been a prominent judge in the Toronto court systems, who'd chucked the system and was now homeless and living in the ravine. Sadly, he turned out to be not very interesting otherwise. A book by the person I'm thinking of, I mean, not SWA, whom I clearly haven't read, just confused her with someone else.

Gail Bowen's books are set, I think, in southern Saskatchewan. I read a couple. Wasn't impressed. Another dull protagonist.

I haven't read Tanya Huff at all yet.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Nothing more off-putting, IMHO, than a dull protagonist. Since I read for character, pretty much full stop.

Thanks for the warning [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I read for character too, and I tend to like characters who are vivid and outrageous - Miles, Lymond, Eugenides, and other of that type - to those who are dull.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Eugenides???

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The hero of Megan Whalen Turner's novels, The Thief (http://cdn.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/6/9780060824976.jpg), The Queen of Attolia (http://cdn.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/9/9780060841829.jpg) and The King of Attolia (http://cdn.harpercollins.com/harperimages/isbn/large/4/9780060835774.jpg). They are high on the list of "books I have loved", in large part because of my love of the hero, Gen.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Ah. Another series that everyone but me raved about. I tried the first one, and it just didn't do a thing for me.

Oh, well.

Thanks for the info.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So it goes! There's many a series that I react in that way to, wondering where eveyone else sees the joy. The Jim Butcher books, for example.

I like the was Megan Whalen Turner uses words, and the way her plots have lavers of revelation. This works less well when you guess the 'big reveal' right away, but it's a kind of plot structure that I love.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

And you can count me in the tally of Jim Butcher fans. At least of Harry Dresden. The Calderon books left my dry after the first chapter. But I got hooked on Harry through the television series that -- alas -- only lasted one season on the SciFi channel, and the books are just as enjoyable. I like Harry's attitude, probably more than anything else about the books. The setting is very real, too.

I never got past about the first half-dozen chapters of Turner, so maybe at some point I should give her another try, the way you say you're going to give Amelia another shot [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like Dresden's attitude, too - but I didn't like the style or the plot of the first book. It was a little disappointing, but hey, so it goes.

Yes, of course I'll give Amelia another shot. If you don't like MWT's style you may never take to the Eugenides books, though it was the combination of plot (unfolding) and character (outstanding) that pulled me in. I found Eugenides rather Miles-like.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I found Eugenides rather Miles-like.

So many have said [wry g]. If I had a nickel for every time someone's recommended a book to me because "the hero is like Miles" and he has turned out not to be at all like Miles in my perception, we could go out for a very nice lunch. Oh, well.

Miles-like heroes are much fewer and farther between than most people seem to think [g]. I can count on the fingers of one hand (with fingers left over) the heroes I've read who truly fit that category. Including Miles himself.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So who do you count as being Miles-like? Miles is IMHO unique so I wouldn't say anyone was like him, exactly, but a few other heroes fit the same sort of emotional niche in my reading perceptions.

Though now that I say this I can't think of any others.

I think what I mean is not so much that any other character resembles Miles, they don't, but that they are unlike all other heroes and so fit a special category of "distinct" and "unique". While all other heroes, including most of my favourites (and Aral himself) are neither unique nor prototypes.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

The only other hero I count as filling that emotional niche, as you say, is Ramses Emerson. And he's not a prototype, by any means, or unique. He just hits my emotional buttons in a similar way. I'd give my eyeteeth for more heroes like Miles or Ramses. Which is why when people who like either one say, oh, this hero is like one or the other of them, I leap on it and am usually disappointed in the recommendation [sigh].

This has been going on for quite some time for me -- I used to belong to a librarians' listserv called Fiction-L (http://www.webrary.org/rs/flmenu.html) which specializes in readers' advisory, librarian-speak for helping people find good books to read (as opposed to reference, helping them find the answers to their questions). They do a lot of what they call "readalike" lists, an "if you like that, you'll like this" sort of thing. The only time I've ever seen them stumped is when they've been asked for readalikes for the Vorkosigan series. AAMOF, when the question was posed, Diana Tixier Herald, who is one of the gurus of readers' advisory, said, point blank, there is no one like Miles. Which frustrated me no end [g].

She did redeem herself, though, by describing Miles, in her book Genreflecting, as the sexiest, most charismatic man in this or any galaxy -- under five feet tall. So I suppose that's something...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

They do a lot of what they call "readalike" lists, an "if you like that, you'll like this" sort of thing.

For a while my library was giving out bookmarks with lists like that - starting out, say, "If you like John Grisham, try...." and then a list of other authors whom they thought had thematic or stylistic similarities.

I love that. But when I actually try to read any such list, I am invariably disappointed, and don't find the books similiar to those I like in significant ways. For instance, there are a few over-the-top historical romance novels in which the hero was modelled on Lymond. Are they "like Dorothy Dunnett"? Yes, but only in the ways that don't matter. The books that are "like Dorothy Dunnett" tend to be either by authors she was inspired by (Sabatini, Orczy, Sayers, Heyer) or which were inspired by her (Guy Kay, Mary Doria Russell, Margaret Ball).

Bujold has so many different influences... It isn't really that there's anything so different about her books, except their quality, and the distinctive nature of Miles. There's no one exactly like Miles, no, nor should there be. That would be plagiarism. But there are heroes who are similarly clever and resourceful. Some of them even clever, resourceful, and handicapped.

Though Georgette Heyer is a totally different genre and style from Bujold, she has something of the same writing strengths - no clever, resourceful heroes of the Miles type, though; and her females are more reminiscent of Shakespeare or Austin than Bujold.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

For a while my library was giving out bookmarks with lists like that

And ten to one they were getting the content for them from either the Canadian Library Association, or, more likely, Fiction-L. Librarians are no more fond of reinventing the wheel than anyone else [g].

when I actually try to read any such list, I am invariably disappointed

Precisely. And when I say that I'm looking for another series that has the same things in common that the Amelias and the Miles books have in common with each other, people just do the online equivalent of staring at me like I've got two heads. As if the Amelias and the Miles books can't possibly have anything in common just because their settings are so different.

But there are heroes who are similarly clever and resourceful.

But you know, I don't think even that's what's relevant. What's relevant to me is that they're whole, rounded, imperfect people having bigger than life adventures, not that they happen to have certain character traits.

And Heyer. Ptui. Sorry. I have the feeling that the main reason I don't like Heyer (aside from her writing style, which just annoys me) is that she doesn't do those whole, rounded, imperfect people having bigger than life adventures. She does these mincing socially correct people being clever at each other.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

ten to one they were getting the content for them from either the Canadian Library Association, or, more likely, Fiction-L

This is probably true! I meet a lot of librarians online, in the reading-themed mailing lists.

What's relevant to me is that they're whole, rounded, imperfect people having bigger than life adventures, not that they happen to have certain character traits.

I think you're right. I think I can even narrow it down further to characters who are convincing, regardless of whatever their attributes are. "Attractive" in some way - being entertaining - is a bonus, too, but that can be done in an infinite number of different ways. Probably each author, and each book, does it differently.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

This is probably true! I meet a lot of librarians online, in the reading-themed mailing lists.

We do tend to be rather ubiquitous in those circles, yes [g]. Esp. readers' advisory librarians, who need all the help they can get to make good links from one author to the next for their patrons.

I belong to six readers' lists myself, and I'm not even a librarian anymore.

I think I can even narrow it down further to characters who are convincing, regardless of whatever their attributes are.

I don't think I can narrow it down that far. I'll be honest -- I need those bigger than life adventures for the character to really hook me. Which is why most modern literature does nothing for me.

I also need an upbeat ending, or at least a hopeful one (although I'm not too sure there's much practical difference between the two). It's the romance fan in me.

So I'm actually pretty picky about my reading. Moreso than I've been willing to admit in the past [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I need those bigger than life adventures for the character to really hook me.

I tend to prefer bigger than life stories. Characters too, I suppose, but it depends.... there are a lot of variables that I can't pin down. This is one reason I like opera and comic books.

I like a positive type of ending, too.

Yeah, I'm picky too, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We are discriminating!

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

This is one reason I like opera and comic books.

Both of which are formats I can't quite wrap my brain around [g]. I like the instrumental music in opera, but the voices, well... (esp. the female voices, for some reason). And I used to work for one of the best music schools out there, so I had plenty of time to develop an appreciation. Apparently I just don't have the gene.

Yeah, I'm picky too, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We are discriminating!

Sometimes I wish I wasn't quite so picky. I'd have more books to enjoy.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Both of which are formats I can't quite wrap my brain around [g].

Many don't. Since I've been reading comics - and loving comics - since I was a kid, it's hard for me to imagine not liking them.

Opera is different. I saw a few operas over the years, and wasn't impressed. This was a little disappointing because I expected to like it. I remember once seeing Madame Butterfly in London, and loving the stage set, but being bored (and depressed) by the music and the story. I thought I didn't have the gene either. Well, not all stories are created equal - I love musical theatre in general, but I thought Miss Saigon was boring and depressing, too. (Though I must confess, I like the Miss Saigon music much more when John Barrowman sings it.)

Then one day I was watching an episode of Smallville and Lionel Luthor (my favourite villain at the time) was listing to opera and I loved it - I just fell in love with the form then and there. I had to hunt to find out what that particular opera was. It turned out to be The Pearl Fishers by Bizet.

So now I love opera, for all the good it does me - there isn't much opera in Ottawa, and I can't afford to go elsewhere. And it isn't the same on DVD or in recordings, though that's better than nothing.

So you know what Richard Gere says in Pretty Woman - you hear opera, you either love it, or you never will? Not true.

I don't mind being picky about books: my 'to read when I have time' pile is already towering higher than the CN Tower and the Seattle Space Needle put on top of each other.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I've never actually tried to sit down and listen to an entire production. And I probably never will, mostly because I find the female voices auditorily painful. I did like Amadeus, but in spite of the operatic bits, not because of them. And that bit from Pretty Woman makes me grind my teeth, as does a similar bit from the otherwise terrific Little Women, the one with Winona Ryder (the fact that the opera scene was one of the few pieces of the script that did not come from the book just made it worse). I suppose people do fall in love with it at first sight, just like they do with anything else, but the way you decided you like it makes much more sense to me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You never know when something might unexpectedly appeal. Though this was somewhat uncharacteristic of me - usually, the things I liked once, I always like, and I'm equally consistent about the things I don't like. Even down to details. Still - it's nice to know I can surprise myself.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I have been known to change my mind occasionally.

Is that icon Barrowman? If it is, it's a very different Barrowman [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, the icon is John Barrowman. I don't know what it's from but I would guess it's a slightly younger John Barrowman, done up for either musical theatre or a panto. I'd like to find out. It reminds me of the pictures we're seeing now, in his advertising for Aladdin next month.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Is it based on the Disney version or the original stories? I can't tell from the pictures on his website.

I've heard about panto (mostly from my Branagh fandom, and his movie In the Bleak Midwinter, but I've never seen one.

I have to say he looks rather feminine in that icon. I like him better when he looks more male [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Is it based on the Disney version or the original stories? I can't tell from the pictures on his website.

Definitely not Disney. It's panto, so the characters are probably inspired by the original, but any storyline would be pretty much unrecognizable. Or maybe recognizable, but still way over the top. Last year Barrowman did "Jack and the Beanstalk". I love it that he keeps doing characters named "Jack". He was Jack in "De-Lovely", too.

mostly from my Branagh fandom, and his movie In the Bleak Midwinter

Do you mean A Midwinter's Tale? I don't remember a panto in that. I was telling myself just the other day that I wanted to see it again. Loved that movie! But I don't actually own a copy. I put it on my Christmas list, then crossed it off.

Anyway: I saw a panto once when I lived in Engand - don't even remember what it was - and saw one once in Ottawa, I think. Every decade or so someone stages one, presumably British expats doing it for British expats and hoping it will catch on. We don't have anything like it, really.

I have to say he looks rather feminine in that icon. I like him better when he looks more male [g]

He has many guises! I like the Captain Jack Harkness look best myself, with the braces and the boots and the greatcoat and the dark shirts.