fajrdrako | Doctor Who: "The Unquiet Dead"

rosiespark and I have been discussing series 1 Doctor Who episode by episode. I started off with Rose, she followed up with The End of the World, and now it's my turn again here with The Unquiet Dead.

I might as well confess at the outset that "The Unquiet Dead" is my least favourite of all the episodes of Doctor Who I have seen. I can't entirely put my finger on why, though I think there are four reasons - five, maybe - all of which can be summed up as "Mark Gatiss' writing style". The fact that he himself refers to "the morbid, ebony-black grotesqueness of the nineteenth century" is not a good sign for his approach. I'll try not to dwell on the negative, because watching this again, I still enjoyed myself - it doesn't annoy me, or bore me, or make me want to watch something else instead. I still love the Doctor and Rose in it. It's more that I find the other characters dull and the story fairly weak - not really funny, not really scary.

Breaking it down into aspects:

Charles Dickens. I was disappointed by the way Dickens was portrayed. Yes, I know it's my own fannishness coming through here. It isn't that Simon Callow isn't a good actor - I've loved him in other things. It's the concept: Dickens as being old and jaded; or Dickens as a skeptic, despite the evidence of his own eyes; Dickens as a foil to the Doctor. I'd like to see him as smarter, snappier, wittier.

On the plus side, I did love it that the Doctor is a fan, and happy to say so. (Despite Martin Chuzzelwit.) His fannishness didn't come across with the sincerity I saw in David Tennant's performance of the Doctor facing Shakespeare in The Shakespeare Code, and he seemed a little too willing to criticize Dickens.... If I were an eight year old who didn't know anything about Dickens, I wouldn't have been left thinking highly of Dickens from this.

My favourite of his lines: "What phantasmagoria is this?"

The Story. The plot doesn't entirely make sense to me, though it's intriguing. I'm not very fond of Mark Gatiss' understated writing style; his characters seem to me a little smaller than life.

But there are some aspects of the story I do like. One is the continuity between this episode and Torchwood; the Rift goes right through Sneed's house - does that mean his house was right on the site of what later became Roald Dahl Plass, with the fountain and the Millennium Centre? I like that. But the story implies that it has been only the Gelth trying to get through the Rift for many, many years - perhaps they blocked the entryway? When the Gelth say, "Open the Rift!" I thought of Bilis - and Owen. And when the Doctor said, "The Rift is getting wider," I thought; "That line was stolen from Torchwood!" Though I suppose it's really the other way round.

As far as I know, this is the only episode of Doctor Who with a psychic character, aside from the Doctor himself.

The Gelth reminded me of the Family in "Human Nature" and "The Family of Blood", except that they inhabit the living, while the Gelth favour corpses. Because of the gas. The gas connections weren't entirely convincing to me; but that's okay, it wouldn't be the only Doctor Who villains who didn't entirely make sense to me.

Interesting to see Eve Myles play Gwyneth. She doesn't remind me of Gwen Cooper, which is a sign of Eve Myles' grasp of characterization. At the same time, I don't find Gwyneth very interesting. I do like her private conversation with Rose about the butcher boy's bum, but there remains something limited about her - it doesn't seem to me that Gwyneth has much personality.

I love it that she mentioned "bad wolf".

Again, I love it that the Gelth mentioned the Time War - a phrase calculated to trigger the Doctor's sense of concern and guilt. Did they know that? What, then, did they know of the Doctor? Were they using a psychic conduit trick, through Gwyneth, to know what phrase to use? Or were they in fact victims of the Time War, just not very nice ones?

There are many clues here to reinforce my belief that the Doctor is already very much in love with Rose, even if he doesn't know what to do about it - except feel guilty. Is there any other point at which he says she's beautiful?

I might add that I think Rose has a beautiful personality, but I thought she looked awful in that dress and bonnet. The boots were good. I loved the boots.

The voices of the Gelth sounded like the fairies in "Small Worlds" and the petal-aliens in "Fear Her". Are there no other ways to do group-personality aliens?

Interesting that Rose thinks the bodies of the dead should be respected, and the Doctor doesn't. Is it that he thinks the needs of the living outweigh the needs of the dead? This episode skirts on some life and death issues that are very interesting, but never quite comes to grips with the articulation of any of them. It isn't that this is beyond the scope of a kid's show, since other episodes do it well. It's more that this particular episodes hints at meanings and then backs off.

The best thing about this episode was its discussion of time. There are some terrific quotes. For example:
Rose: Think about it, though. Christmas 1860 happens once, just once, and then it's finished. It's gone, it'll never happen again. Except for you. You can go back and see days that are dead and gone. A hundred thousand sunsets ago. No wonder you never stay still.
And despite my rude comments about Mark Gatiss a while back, I think that is a beautifully written passage, both for content and wording: a hundred thousand sunsets. It says a lot about Rose, and he intelligence and insight, not to mention her sense of beauty. It also conveys something about the Doctor himself; his sense of priorities, the way they dovetail with hers.

I wonder, though: "You can go back and see days that are dead and gone." I assume he can't go back to the same day over and over - no Groundhog Day here? Or can he? Captain Jack implies he has gone back to Volcano Day and the Blitz more than once - is he carefully trying to avoid himself all the time, or is the timeline more complicated than that?

Other good aspects about that scene: the Doctor says, "Give the man a medal. Earth. Naples. December 24th, 1860." But it turns out it isn't. Presumably the controls on the TARDIS aren't very accurate. Or is the TARDIS lying to him? I like the notion that the TARDIS sees and finds its own trouble spots, and might have spotted the problem with the Rift and the Gelth from afar. Or maybe the TARDIS was trying to keep them out of trouble - it was clear that the Doctor hadn't a clue what was happening in Naples on Christmas Eve, 1860, but it seems to me that around that time Garibaldi was advancing on the city with his armies of liberation. The TARDIS might have been trying to keep them out of a war zone. - Oh, I just noticed: Garibaldi and those soldiers were actually in an early draft of this story. Heh.

And the following phrase strikes me as utterly romantic:
Rose: ...It's Christmas.
The Doctor: All yours.
Which, in keeping with the overt tone of the show, is said lightly, but really has depths and layers: he's making a gift to her of time and space. Or, in fact, this time and this space, in all its unique specialness which she articulates so perfectly. And then the punchline, after her speech:
The Doctor: Not a bad life.
Rose: Better with two.
...And I can't help thinking, what perfect articulation of romance, or Romance with a capital R, worthy of the greatest of poets and writers, and delivered subtly and casually in a somewhat macabre horror story written so as not to bore the 8 year olds.

This is echoed by the heroic dialogue later on:
Rose: But we'll go down fighting, yeah?
The Doctor: You bet.
Rose: Together.
The Doctor: Yeah. I'm glad I met you.
Rose: Me too.
It's anyone's guess as to the levels of self-awareness there, at least on Rose's part.

I love it that the Doctor calls Rose "Barbarella". But does he worry about what she wears in other episodes? Do fashion choices only matter in connection with the past, not the future? Personally I wish he'd dressed in some elegant fashion of 1860 because he's look terrific, but I like the way Nine dressed anyway. No complaints about that jumper from me.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

But this is gloss on the text, the show does not explain the whys and wherefore. Perhaps it didn't explain in series 1 either, but I never felt and explanation was needed or necessary.

I think that really encapsulates the differences for me between the two incarnations. I suppose I can buy the Doctor loves the Master stuff, at least in the abstract; for too much of it, I thought Tennant looked like either he was playing the Master in order to reel him in, or he wasn't committing to the insanity of the relationship and I couldn't decide which it was. Except for the first part of the Master's death scene, where I think Tennant really did, finally, get into it. Then when they cut to the other angle with him cradling his body, I could practically see him with one eye on the monitor to see how he looked.

I think at the way Nine went after the Dalek, though, the virtuosity of those two performances (including Nick Briggs and his voice modulator), and it feels more like a relationship to me. The thought of Eccleston playing those scenes with Simm...I can see the desperation without any hesitation and a whole lot of overt homoeroticism, because CE never passes on the opportunity to bring a little of that to the table. I don't know that it's always conscious, although sometimes it clearly is, but he is so focused on the person he is acting with, there almost always seems to be some sort of erotic charge. And Simm has always been good, but he really stepped up to the plate with this part, even though I've heard he felt a little exposed and silly. That's bravery.

Tennant is rather good, in my opinion, at doing the moments of great drama or melodrama - condemning the Family of Blood, destroying the offspring of the Racnoss, weeping over the loss of Rose, being happy to see K9 again. But unless it's been set up in words, he can't do subtle nuance to save his life. His acting is all exterior expression.

The last part for me is key, as you can see from the rambling above. I have to say, for me, he always seems a bit flat when he's doing the "vengeance" thing - he doesn't scares me the way it seems he's supposed to. The way he behaves does, but it feels like...it feels like one of those little boys who pulls the wings off flies? Dark, in a small, cramped way? There's an episode of the original Star Trek where they're tortured by this supposedly all-powerful being, and it turns out he's essentially the toddler of these very powerful creatures. That's how I often feel about Ten. I think that when Tennant can let his inner fanboy come out (SJS, K9, Gallifrey), we do get glimmers of genuine emotion, and they stand out for me, and I thought he was good on the beach scene with Billie Piper in DD - although I think you'd have to have a heart of stone not to cry when BP is crying, she's too good at it! (Lord help us if she and Eccleston ever got going at the same time, because he's also waaaaay too good at the crying.) I found the switch back to the TARDIS and the glycerine tears a little jarring. But I know I'm in the minority for liking the way Donna popped up right then - then, they went and used the same framework again for the end of S3, and I wish they'd switch things up a little.

John Smith: it was the dissonance between his mundanity and the persona of the Doctor that disturbed me. Or something. I found it difficult to watch him being ordinary and unheroic.

I understand that. I see a lot of that reaction. But it was weird for me, because as I said before, John Smith felt more "real" to me than Ten. It's a strange disjunction.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

I watched "The Last of the Time Lords" with a kind of escalating fascinating, amusement, and horror, and still don't know exactly what to make of it; I felt that the things I love and loved most about the show were being shredded and burned to make way for... something else. But I'm not sure what those things were. Still musing.

Not to make a mystery of it, but not to make a deal of it either when I still haven't thought it through: the things I have loved most about Doctor Who were (1) the sense of heroism; (2) the Doctor/Rose relationship, succeeded by the Doctor/Martha relationship; (3) the Doctor/Jack relationship. And the Doctor's psychology in relationship to all three of those aspects.

I think at the way Nine went after the Dalek, though, the virtuosity of those two performances (including Nick Briggs and his voice modulator), and it feels more like a relationship to me.

I agree. It was amazing. The Doctor/Master stuff doesn't work for me because I don't feel that I understand it. But I'm working at. I also think I shouldn't have to work at it, that it should be automatic; but the psychology so far hasn't added up for me in a way that works.

Lord help us if she and Eccleston ever got going at the same time, because he's also waaaaay too good at the crying.

Trying to re-envision "Doomsday" in my head, with Eccleston there instead of Tennant. Eee. I wish.

I know I'm in the minority for liking the way Donna popped up right then

I liked that a lot. I didn't know other fans didn't.

- then, they went and used the same framework again for the end of S3, and I wish they'd switch things up a little.

I liked that well enough, as a bit of a relief from my jarring confusion about what preceded. They'd just presented me with a Martha and a Jack who could and would comfortably walk away from the Doctor (having elevated him to godhood) and the Face of Boe thing... I was ready for something odd but mindless.

In "The Family of Blood" I was sharing Martha's frustration. Perhaps I'd have been happier if John Smith had been heroic and large-than-life and self-sacrificing in his mortality, but of course, that would have destroyed the whole thematic point. Which isn't to say I didn't totally love the episode; I did; I just loved it without liking either John or Joan much at all.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

It's been so humid and rainy today, my energy has been pretty much nil! But my lack of response is not lack of interest, rest assured.

I felt that the things I love and loved most about the show were being shredded and burned to make way for... something else.

In some ways, I felt that starting in S2. Although I loved the provisional happy ending for Jackie and Pete, in many ways, I really wanted Pete to stay dead, that imperfect but wonderful Dad who made the right decision. And to a certain extent, to have Ten swanning about being all "dark" and "merciless" meant that all of Nine's healing and reconnecting to humanity was, in essence, erased. I also think Rose became less proactive. I have a couple of friends whose opinions I respect who don't think so - but I do. It became less about the "better life" and more about being with the Doctor, less opening up and more shutting down, less growing up and more becoming obvious. This ties in with the idea that Ten and Rose's relationship was presented more like other TV romances, with just an edge of hysteria, IMO. When I think of Nine and Rose, I think of extremely heated gazes and a lot of liquid body language, all focused on each other. When I think of Ten and Rose, they're grinning from ear to ear, holding hands but in a very tight grasp with their muscles all taut/tense, and their looking outward, almost as if they're presenting a front to the world. I can see what people see there...it's just that I can't help seeing it as a mask. Whether it's Ten and Rose clinging desperately, or David and Billie not quite selling the chemistry, I'm not 100% certain, but it wouldn't be the first time "great friends" off screen didn't translate.

What I have loved about the reboot of DW. Hmm. If I'm honest, first and foremost, it was Eccleston's and Piper's acting. Eccleston has always impressed me, but about five years ago, he hit another gear somewhere and is such a volatile mix of intensity and subtlety that I find he not only never disappoints me, he always surprises me; and the three-way chemistry between Eccleston, Piper, and Barrowman came out of left field. That really shouldn't happen. Definitely the connection to emotional reality, at least in S1. The excitement and wonder of exploration for both the seasoned traveler and the newbie. The combination of big themes and the everyday - although that's gotten rockier and less anchored as they've gone along, as they've discussed. So I do love the emotional connection, but in Doomsday, the real lump-in-the-throat came for me with Jackie and Pete. It's that opaqueness that blocks me from connecting with Ten.

The Doctor/Master stuff doesn't work for me because I don't feel that I understand it.

You know what it felt like to me? Bad slash fanfic. It was all set-up but no real underpinning. I could see every single move as a strategy to set them up as a slash couple, but it fell into the "two cute guys in a room" category for me. I didn't feel the connection (having Ten be CGI for a lot of it didn't help). Even Simm, who I think is a terrific actor and improving all the time, didn't really sell me. Again, back to some ineffable chemical something that was missing here for me. And it's not just me "missing" Ten - I thought Tennant and Barrowman had a nice chemistry. It wasn't very sexy, but it was friendly and warm and affectionate, and ditto Tennant and Tate, and Tennant and Claire Rushbrook in TIP/TSP had more connection, IMO. (I also don't see the "scorching" chemistry between Tennant and Agyeman many seem to see.)

…the way Donna popped up right then

I liked that a lot. I didn't know other fans didn't.

I was resenting the hell out of being manipulated into crying with the beach scene (between the writing and the music, it all felt too drawn out and predictable - I'd have preferred leaving it at the wall and having a montage of Rose having her fantastic life). But Billie just cries so well! And Donna popping up burst that nicely. I think the Titanic served a similar purpose at the end of LOTL, and it works on its own terms, it just reminded me a little too strongly of the end of DD.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

loved the provisional happy ending for Jackie and Pete, in many ways, I really wanted Pete to stay dead, that imperfect but wonderful Dad who made the right decision.

Thematically, I would have preferred that, just as I prefer Rose to be lost in the other universe, and avoid all the fanfic solutions that reunite her with the Doctor. But in the case of Pete, I bought it as a sort of compensation package, like when you lose your job and they give you a bonus. Rose found, and lost, her heart's desire (the Doctor and life with him on the TARDIS), but in compensation got the father she'd always wanted. I'm not sure what I feel about his riches - that adds a fairy-tale lustre to the story. I'm not sure whether that's good or bad. I suppose it doesn't thematically matter, because it wouldn't matter much either way to Rose.

to have Ten swanning about being all "dark" and "merciless" meant that all of Nine's healing and reconnecting to humanity was, in essence, erased

Reversed. As if he really didn't change in series one, although he did.

It became less about the "better life" and more about being with the Doctor

I'd have to think that through. It's likely true, but I'm not sure it's a bad thing - the shift from the abstract to the personal. Because equally the Doctor was making the same shift, letting go of a few barriers and emotional defenses. (Never mind that he'd already gone through the same process in series 1, and did it better.)

first and foremost, it was Eccleston's and Piper's acting

That was certainly a powerful attraction. To some extent, I think I've been coasting on that ever since - that is, the image of the Doctor I formed with Nine has stayed with me and coloured my view of Ten, whether it fits him or not. It isn't always a bad fit, but it isn't a particularly good fit, either.

the three-way chemistry between Eccleston, Piper, and Barrowman came out of left field. That really shouldn't happen. Definitely the connection to emotional reality, at least in S1.

Yes. This astounded and delighted me. It was so convincing and real in every way, and so unexpected. I've seldom seen such a strong picture of three people happy together as Rose, the Doctor, and Jack, in Boom Town.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

I definitely think RTD intended the ending to be one of those "be careful what you wish for" tales, and it would have worked, maybe, if I had felt the Ten/Rose relationship was as strong as the Nine/Rose connection. But it never quite clicked for me, and I was kind of relieved for it to be over, in a "it feels so good when you stop hitting me over the head" way. /tongue-in-cheek

(Never mind that he'd already gone through the same process in series 1, and did it better.)

That's a good deal of the frustration for me, because it feels like it negates Nine's existence, and to me it doesn't make me sympathetic with Ten so much as want to smack him upside the head.

I've seldom seen such a strong picture of three people happy together as Rose, the Doctor, and Jack, in Boom Town.

It is extraordinary, and very powerful. I've seen a little sniping from both Barrowman and Piper that Tennant is more "fun", but I wish they could see themselves on screen. The combination of the three of them was magic (the only time I've ever seen a three-way relationship where I felt, yes, this works on every level, including but not limited to sexuality). I think both actors were also better with CE; as I've said before, there's something about him that tends to draw a better performance out of anyone - including Nicolas Cage - acting opposite him. That's a really rare gift as an actor. I'm reminded of a lovely quote from Alan Rickman who said he wouldn't want to do a one-man show because he didn't see the point of that from an acting point of view. I don't think he's 100% right, but I think that's the right attitude for a performer of any sort. (Then again, I'm biased, I guess, because I am a performer!)

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

it never quite clicked for me, and I was kind of relieved for it to be over, in a "it feels so good when you stop hitting me over the head" way.

Heh. I can certainly understand that. At the same time, I didn't have quite the same problems with the Ten/Rose relationship that you do - I can see the sense of dependency - interdependence? codependence? overdependence? I'm not sure where the line should be drawn, but I don't think it's over the line. But even though I loved them together, I was glad to see her go because I'm not sure where the relationship could or would have gone. Of course it could have gone on indefinitely with Tennant and Piper, with no change in the Doctor/Rose relationship at all. That's another kind of dead end. So I was glad to see Rose go, and glad to see it wasn't because she chose to leave. Fate parted them. That, I like.

re the relationship in Boom Town:

I've seen a little sniping from both Barrowman and Piper that Tennant is more "fun", but I wish they could see themselves on screen.

I think they know. I think they're playing a very careful hand with the media, only saying so much. Everyone wants Barrowman and Tennant to be happy as clams together because they love Jack and the Doctor - so Barrowman and Tennant happily play this up, each saying how funny the other is. Meadia-wise, there's no reason to play up whatever Barrowman and Eccleston may have thought of each other. I think Eccleston tends to be more professional about his work, while Barrowman likes to joke around, so there may have been a clash of styles, but I've yet to hear anything about a clash of temperament. And I think Barrowman's acting with Eccleston (and Piper) was superb. Yes, magic.

the only time I've ever seen a three-way relationship where I felt, yes, this works on every level, including but not limited to sexuality

I agree. Five episodes, and not a false note in it.

I'm reminded of a lovely quote from Alan Rickman who said he wouldn't want to do a one-man show because he didn't see the point of that from an acting point of view.

...So he thinks of acting as only a collaborative effort? Interesting. Obviously many, many actors disagree! From the point of view of someone in the audience, some of the best performances I've seen were one-person performances. Because then you get the undistilled, uncompromised talent of the actor. I see a value to that, and though I'm not an actor, I think it's another way for an actor to stretch himself by focussing on the material, not the other actors.

But whatever Rickman chooses to focus on, it must be working, because I absolutely love all his performances. He was brilliant with Sigourney Weaver in "Snow Cake", which is the last thing I saw him in, but he was also briliant as Snape in "Harry Potter" which I saw only a week or two before that - and, of course, extremely different. Rickman had very little screen time in the last movie, but I thought he had the best scenes and the best moments.

From:

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-11-01 01:37 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

in Doomsday, the real lump-in-the-throat came for me with Jackie and Pete. It's that opaqueness that blocks me from connecting with Ten.

I loved the scenes with Jackie and Pete but they didn't hit my lump-in-the-throat triggers - they made me laugh, in a delightfully sentimental way.

I loved the ending of "Doomsday" because it was the technique of finding the worst thing that could possibly happen to a character, and do it to them. For Rose, it was losing the Doctor, and her life on the TARDIS. For the Doctor, it was having all his emotional distance stripped away, and then losing what he'd sacrificed it for. I was, at first, delighted that it left him visibly traumatized through series 3. But unless there's another resolution still to come, it left him way too dysfunctional for my tastes.

I suppose what I loved about the show was the Doctor's heroic connection with humanity in general, and his personal love for Rose in particular, as a sort of small-scale/big scale image of a certain loving continuum. I wanted him to recover from the loss of Rose and make a connection again, particularly since the beginning of series 3 was set up like genre romance. Instead it fragmented. It may reintegrate in other ways, which would be great, except that my faith is gone.

Which makes me think of the - to my mind - rather confusing attitude we get to religion in series 3. First, we have a universe that is subtly but definitively atheistic; I think that's great. But then, surely the hymns of faith in "Gridlock" are hollow, not heartwarming? I had been interpreting them as an 'opiate of the masses' thing, and was surprised to hear in the Confidential that Davies indended them to be taken seriously. This confusion in my mind applies equally to "The Last of the Time Lords" - where the Doctor can only help by becoming a cult figure. And by calling him a 'cult figure' rather than a 'god', I mean specifically that the power to act and to change things came from the faith of those who believed in him, not from any quality within himself, unless it was the quality of inspiring faith - but it was Martha who took care of that, since people only knew of him through her preaching.

I can't figure that out in a way that works thematically for me. If the show is based (as I'd thought) on a stance of scientific humanism, then why do we get a theological solution to the plot? I'm trying to find an answer that isn't that the Doctor has become as delusional as the Master, though in a more benign way.

You know what it felt like to me? Bad slash fanfic. It was all set-up but no real underpinning.

...I'm trying to find a way not to agree. I have known slash fans who were all into the Doctor/Master pairing for decades, but since the only time I'd seen the Master was Eric Roberts, and I didn't see any substance there, it's never meant anything to me - the Master still doesn't seem like a real personality to me, he's a personification of certain antagonistic concepts - and however entertaining John Simm made him, he didn't overcome that for me. The Doctor almost fixed this problem for me in "The Sound of Drums" - but at that point I still had no real trouble with the story. "The Last of the Time Lords" destroyed the credibility I'd built up.

I thought Tennant and Barrowman had a nice chemistry. It wasn't very sexy, but it was friendly and warm and affectionate

It wasn't the electric tension Nine and Jack had, but it was quite delightful, at least in "Utopia". Not sexy, but with potential.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

I loved the scenes with Jackie and Pete but they didn't hit my lump-in-the-throat triggers - they made me laugh, in a delightfully sentimental way.

I had that reaction, too, I just found myself crying when laughing - okay, my trip wire is pretty low, but the acting from those two works so beautifully. (I'm currently re-watching Touching Evil, and it stuns me how young Shaun Dingwall was, only a few years before DW. Of course, he was only 33 then, the loss of all that strawberry blonde hair is quite noticeable!)

I loved the ending of "Doomsday" because it was the technique of finding the worst thing that could possibly happen to a character, and do it to them.

That's definitely what it was! I think I was fine with the ending as ending, I just found the beach scene far too long and ending on a note I'd have preferred they avoid, which is Rose destroyed. I want Rose to have her fantastic life. I sort of understand the "wallowing instinct" that went on afterward, it's just not really my style. My #1 sad/happy ending is the end of Truly, Madly, Deeply, which is just as, if not more, heartbreaking, but written and played with a bit more restraint, which gets me even more! I have a low crying tripwire, as I said above, but I actually prefer having a tension between the wallowing and the restraint. They hit that beautifully at least twice in POTW: the hologram and "before I go..."

I understand the way that people were glad to see the Doctor remembering Rose. But I do think they've overdone it for a continuing television show, and in doing so, almost fatally hobbled Martha's character - that, plus The Crush would have been impossible for anyone to overcome.

I wanted him to recover from the loss of Rose and make a connection again, particularly since the beginning of series 3 was set up like genre romance. Instead it fragmented. It may reintegrate in other ways, which would be great, except that my faith is gone.

Yeah, that's where I thought they were heading, and instead, they did some very dodgy things. Sometimes I think of creativity as a kind of elasticity, where you keep this tension between stretching and holding a shape. I thought they managed brilliantly in S1. S2 overstretched and the "rubber band" got a little limp, but then it seemed to tighten up toward the middle of S3...right before they pulled it so hard that it snapped. To fix it, at the very least, is going to take some stitching, which means it's never going to be quite as strong. /runaway metaphor

Which makes me think of the - to my mind - rather confusing attitude we get to religion in series 3.

Yes, confusing indeed. Especially coming from someone who seemed to have "found the answer" in The Second Coming. Whether you agreed with it or not (it's close to what I would choose), it was an answer, it was definitive, and it worked dramatically.

First, we have a universe that is subtly but definitively atheistic; I think that's great. But then, surely the hymns of faith in "Gridlock" are hollow, not heartwarming? I had been interpreting them as an 'opiate of the masses' thing, and was surprised to hear in the Confidential that Davies indended them to be taken seriously.

I have to say, my eyes were rolling at that point. It did seem hollow and delusional to me - and even as an atheist, I can be moved to tears in a church by hymns and the power of people's belief, even if I don't share it. So that's how I saw Martha's reaction. But I still thought we were supposed to see this as a delusion. I didn't find this a particularly well-written episode, to be honest, and that's another element that slipped through the cracks. This episode reminded me of The Long Game, in that it felt rushed and a bit jumbled, but at least The Long Game had two strengths - the message was clear and unambiguous, and the Doctor and Rose were at their Steed-and-Peeliest.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

I must watch touching Evil - I only saw the American version. Didn't know Shaun Dingwall was in the other version.

I didn't see Rose as being destroyed at the end of "Doomsday". Not at all. She was unhappy, but picking up her life and carrying on with Torchwood. Ineresting question: what is Torchwood in her world, where it has presumably not been reshaped by Captain Jack? I guess it's Rose's job to do that. Is it like Yvonne's Torchwood? Or is it entirely different? What is Torchwood, in a universe that does not contanin the Doctor?

Rhetorical questions, but interesting one.

I like some wallowing, but I prefer it not to be constant. How much is 'too much' varies from story to story and from one viewer to the next. In "Doomsday" I liked it as a climactic change of pace. In "The Last of the Time Lords", I didn't like it.

I love the theme of the Doctor remembering Rose, but I wanted him a theme of series 3 to be that he comes to terms with it, heals, and allows himself to feel affection for others. I wanted some sort of process or growth to be visible.

It did seem hollow and delusional to me - and even as an atheist, I can be moved to tears in a church by hymns and the power of people's belief, even if I don't share it.

Agreed. There is beauty in faith, or faith can express itself beautifully. But... that isn't what we were being given. So: what was it? Mixed message.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

I must watch touching Evil - I only saw the American version. Didn't know Shaun Dingwall was in the other version.

I didn't see the American version because I was in the UK at the time, but I've wanted to watch it. Dingwall was Mark Rivers, a part played by Bradley Cooper in the US version - an actor I do like. I couldn't believe people wanted Sydney and Vaughn together on Alias, I was definitely in the Sydney/Will camp, and thought the show pretty much jumped the shark when he left (well, that whole missing time thing didn't help).

Here's the best screencap I can do at the minute - you can't see the top of his head, but in a very dark show, both literally and metaphorically, his bright red-gold hair was a lovely splash of colour.

He also managed to do cocky and smarmy with an undercurrent of genuine sweetness and vulnerability - so, well, yeah, he was basically playing Pete!

I didn't see Rose as being destroyed at the end of "Doomsday". Not at all. She was unhappy, but picking up her life and carrying on with Torchwood.

It was the old show vs. tell thing for me. I want to believe she picked herself up and continued, but the overwhelming image of BP sobbing on a beach didn't leave that as the final impression. Obviously, people are divided on this one, but I do prefer showing to telling.

I love the theme of the Doctor remembering Rose, but I wanted him a theme of series 3 to be that he comes to terms with it, heals, and allows himself to feel affection for others. I wanted some sort of process or growth to be visible.

Me, too. Instead, he seemed to have used it as an excuse to cut himself off from those who could help him and latch onto those who couldn't, or didn't want to. It's the lack of "learning from one's mistakes" that really gets to me.

Mixed message.

Maybe that was RTD's cunning plan...mixed messages! Ha ha ha! The fans are going to hate that... Although a lot of them don't seem to see mixed messages, so it's hard to tell.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

Only, I'll add Touching Evil to the list of things I want to see.

I usually prefer showing to telling, but for me "Doomsday" came through because I'd rather see the love than the independence. For both Rose and the Doctor.

Maybe Davies' technique is to mix his messages so thoroughly that fans will interpret whatever they want to interpret and so will be happy. Except for those of us who go "huh? what was that?" and peer too closely.

Re: musing over themes, part 1

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-24 03:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: musing over themes, part 1

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-24 03:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

This confusion in my mind applies equally to "The Last of the Time Lords" - where the Doctor can only help by becoming a cult figure. And by calling him a 'cult figure' rather than a 'god', I mean specifically that the power to act and to change things came from the faith of those who believed in him, not from any quality within himself, unless it was the quality of inspiring faith - but it was Martha who took care of that, since people only knew of him through her preaching.

Here's the thing that really bothers me about this. It was all about belief in the Doctor, someone they'd never seen or heard of. Martha has to build his legend from the bottom up. So problem #1, she's got to proselytize by herself in a year. But more than that, I don't like the idea of setting him up as a cult figure. Couldn't they have focused on something more specific but human, ie, "we have the power!" or even just "No!" That's far more uplifting and easier to convince people to believe in each other than this mythical figure, IMO - at least I hope!

I can't figure that out in a way that works thematically for me. If the show is based (as I'd thought) on a stance of scientific humanism, then why do we get a theological solution to the plot? I'm trying to find an answer that isn't that the Doctor has become as delusional as the Master, though in a more benign way.

Sometimes, he isn't even that much more benign. Yeah, it's a problem. It bothers me that it doesn't bother more people.

the Master still doesn't seem like a real personality to me, he's a personification of certain antagonistic concepts - and however entertaining John Simm made him, he didn't overcome that for me.

The characters just all seem so sketchily drawn. I actually did find the Master a bit more coherent than the Doctor, but that's in large part because Simm's performance did seem more grounded to me than Tennant's, which always seems to float free of any mooring, or at least anchored only by others' performances as the Doctor. I had a very similar problem with Tennant in Casanova, that it was all imitation and no center. But the whole thing (LOTL) felt very hollow and, well, silly. And more distasteful the more I thought about it.

Not sexy, but with potential.

I'm fine with them being friends. But I feel sad for Jack in that the characters with whom he's had real chemistry (Nine, real!CJH) have been so fleeting.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

Yes, I agree with all your comments about the pivotal magic of "The Last of the Time Lords". I am also somewhat troubled by the plotting set-up that says "all these things happened over the space of a year - so now we just turn back time and erase that year." I disliked that in Superman, I disliked it in Torchwood, and it's no better here.

My problem with Casanova (besides the costuming) was that I didn't like Henriette. Since she was utterly pivotal to the story - too bad. I thought O'Toole gave a more convincing performance and meatier there than Tennant, though Tennant was fun - but not in my opinion as sexy as Casanova ought to be. Casanova should be irressistible. Tennant was cute.

I did love Shaun Parkes, though!

Re Captain Jack's chemistry - we'll see what happens with it next year. I thought he had great chemistry with Detective Swanson too, but there are apparently no plans to have her return. Pity.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

so now we just turn back time and erase that year." I disliked that in Superman, I disliked it in Torchwood, and it's no better here.

Yes, it's a lazy happy ending, and waaaaaay overused by RTD in the last year. One of the things I loved about the Doctor's ~~12 hours~~ 12 month mixup in AoL/WWIII is that the lost year remained lost.

My problem with Casanova (besides the costuming) was that I didn't like Henriette. Since she was utterly pivotal to the story - too bad.

I found her...bland. In fact, I hadn't thought about it until this minute, but I have the same problem with Casanova as I had with GITF - the central love story, which is so pivotal, hardly registers at all. Certainly the Giac/Bellino relationship was more vivid and memorable. I've liked Laura Fraser in a lot of other things - maybe she just doesn't have chemistry with Tennant, because she was hot in Divorcing Jack with David Thewlis. Then again, Henriette was pretty much a gold-digger, as was Giac, and they apparently loved money and social climbing more than loved each other. I enjoyed the miniseries, in part because of the crashing anachronisms (I enjoy those), but it pretty much had the consistency and nutritional value of cotton candy.

I thought O'Toole gave a more convincing performance and meatier there than Tennant, though Tennant was fun - but not in my opinion as sexy as Casanova ought to be. Casanova should be irressistible. Tennant was cute.

Exactly. I agree with all parts of that.

From:

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-10-22 02:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

I also don't see the "scorching" chemistry between Tennant and Agyeman many seem to see.

I saw it in "Smith and Jones". It was downhill from there - mostly because the Doctor erected emotional walls so thick Martha was (as in his analogy about the perception filters) invisible to him.

I loved the wall scene and the beach scene because I felt Rose deserved that kind of requiem. Operatic scope. Then the appearance of Donna was a sort of "life goes on, with humour" twist, and I liked that too.

The end of "Last of the Time Lords" worked less well for me - as a technique it was fine, but I was reeling from the multiple shock of what had gone before, feeling as if I'd just been attacked on all side, with what I loved most about the show torn away from under my feet. So I'm still working on that. I'm looking forward to the Titanic story; my problems are all with what came before.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

I also don't see the "scorching" chemistry between Tennant and Agyeman many seem to see.

I saw it in "Smith and Jones". It was downhill from there -

I don't know that I ever saw it as "scorching", but I definitely agree it peaked in S&J. Which is unfortunate! I do think he comes off as a bit of a tease (I'm sorry, I snickered when he pulled that stunt in the alleyway...Tennant can't pull off "smoulder" for me), and I never quite worked out over the course of the series whether he was blowing hot and cold, was intentionally playing her, or was totally clueless. Most of all, I wanted him to see her, which didn't happen very often.

I loved the wall scene and the beach scene because I felt Rose deserved that kind of requiem. Operatic scope.

I do get that. Although I still felt like they were coasting on the Nine/Rose relationship there, and I felt rather bludgeoned by much of what had gone on before in the episode by that point.

I'm looking forward to the Titanic story; my problems are all with what came before.

I'm like that with both of season finales, really.

Just as a general thing, I think I tend to say, subconsciously, "I'm willing to go with you [the show] wherever you want to go, but you have to pull your weight [writers and actors], and I'm not going to hack through the underbrush by myself." And it seems like we're getting into some thick undergrowth here toward the end of S3.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

I never quite worked out over the course of the series whether he was blowing hot and cold, was intentionally playing her, or was totally clueless.

I believed she believed he was clueless. I didn't believe he was. This is, of course, a matter of interpretation and preference, and I can't prove my interpretation has greater canonical value than any other. But yes, I wanted him to see her, too. I assumed that he didn't because if he did, he'd have to show some reaction, and he was blocking any possible reciprocation of her feelings, even on a level of self-revealing friendship.

Sadly, I loved "Doomsday", which added up for me thematically and logically, in all the ways I didn't love "The Last of the Time Lords", and still haven't made thematic sense of it.

"I'm willing to go with you [the show] wherever you want to go, but you have to pull your weight [writers and actors], and I'm not going to hack through the underbrush by myself."

Yes. It's as if series 1 gave me everything my heart desired - and a few things I didn't, but they were irrelevant. (I'm thinking CGI monsters, there.) Series 2 didn't give it to me as well, but was nevertheless entertaining. Series 3 ended on a note that made my belief in the Doctor crumble - as if all that expression of faith by the populace in the show leeched out mine, because what I saw there wasn't what I had thought the Doctor was or should be.

This isn't fatal to my love of the show, just to my faith in it. I have to think, rebuild, reinterpret, spin things to my liking to recover what I've lost.

I'd rather not have to do that.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

I believed she believed he was clueless. I didn't believe he was. This is, of course, a matter of interpretation and preference, and I can't prove my interpretation has greater canonical value than any other.

That's kind of the problem, isn't it? We still don't really know, and the series is over.

As for DD, I certainly like it a whole lot better than LOTL. I think the series finales have each been a step down in quality - all of them are a bit all over the place in terms of plotting, but the emotions of PotW were so overwhelming, they completely carried me along. The emotions were high in DD, but I could feel the manipulation and it wasn't quite as satisfying. LOTL, well...

I have to think, rebuild, reinterpret, spin things to my liking to recover what I've lost.

I'd rather not have to do that.

We practically need to set that to music, don't we?

Re: musing over themes, part 2

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-23 12:53 pm (UTC) - Expand

Manipulation

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-08-24 03:13 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Manipulation

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com - Date: 2007-11-01 12:46 am (UTC) - Expand

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

Ack! Once I got started, I couldn't stop...

Re: Eccleston and crying... If you have the DVD of The Second Coming, there's an outtake of him standing in a courtyard and going on a crying jag. It's not pretty and "Hollywood", it's snotty and painful and real. But what just floored me is that it's also shot with a dolly cam on a circular track around him. The camera movement is very precise and steady, starts in front of him as he's just starting to break up, circles completely around as he's wracked with sobs, and ends up back on his face as he's getting himself back together and taking deep, shuddering breaths. The technique involved is just staggering, because it looks so real, but it's absolutely timed to the camera.

They'd just presented me with a Martha and a Jack who could and would comfortably walk away from the Doctor (having elevated him to godhood)

I know we differ on this, because I liked that they walked away because if they'd stayed, it would have meant that he was even more godlike and they were even more obsessed, and I don't like that kind of weight being put on any one character, but especially not Ten. One of my favourite lines from Nine was, "I would make a very bad god," and then in New Earth, Ten declares that "there is no higher authority" than him, coming right after his high-handed treatment of Harriet (right or wrong, it was high-handed). My teeth were rattling from my head spinning.

What I liked about John and Joan in HN/FOB is that they weren't bad people; for their time, they were average, maybe even a little more sensitive than most (when Joan tells Martha it's inappropriate for her to talk to John the way she does, it's not in an "I'm going to report you," way, it's more of a "Some people would really take offense at this and get you into trouble" way). But they are limited by their time, which is, of course, the complete opposite of what the Doctor is supposed to represent.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

No, I don't have the DVD of the Second Coming - that sounds wonderful. And shows how amazing Eccleston is.

I liked that they walked away because if they'd stayed, it would have meant that he was even more godlike and they were even more obsessed

Yeah. I see it differently... Consistency on their parts, and less godliness on his. Because they link him to his humanity, so with them, he is more human, less remote.

One of my favourite lines from Nine was, "I would make a very bad god," and then in New Earth, Ten declares that "there is no higher authority" than him

I certainly liked Nine's attitude better.

What I liked about John and Joan in HN/FOB is that they weren't bad people; for their time, they were average, maybe even a little more sensitive

They didn't have the typical racist/classist attitudes of their time, no, but they didn't to my eyes have a lot of heroism or individuality either - which many people of that time did have. I didn't like the way John Smith clung to what he had. It was also an exciting and dynamic time and they didn't reflect that - they maybe didn't share the flaws of the age but they didn't share its strengths, either. I found them both bland.

From:

nina-ds.livejournal.com

Yeah. I see it differently... Consistency on their parts, and less godliness on his. Because they link him to his humanity, so with them, he is more human, less remote.

Maybe we're not seeing it so much differently, as branching off at a different place. I definitely think they are his link to humanity (or at least not delusions of godhood - because I refuse to think of him as a god), but as of LOTL, I think I see him as having gone so far that he broke the link and may be irretrievable. I would love to see them rescue him, thematically, but then again, maybe they've reached a point where they don't have a handle on him anymore and it's the equivalent of the beach scene. They can't get back, so they have to let go. Maybe this is a set-up for reeling him in next series. It's the best face I can put on it.

I always think power is a very dangerous thing. The characters who handle it best seem to be the ones who know when not to use it. It also helps to have an actor who can "fill up" that power. Eccleston just needed a look. Tennant needs CGI and even then doesn't really pull it off. Simm was riding it like a bucking bronco and it wasn't a pretty ride, but I don't think he ever got completely bucked off.

From:

fajrdrako.livejournal.com

maybe they've reached a point where they don't have a handle on him anymore and it's the equivalent of the beach scene.

It looks that way, and I hate it. I want something both more emotive and more positive.

I like the godhood angle when it started - it seemed playful and imaginative. But the more they - the producers, the writers - seemed to be taking it seriously, and not necessarily just on a symbolic level, the more annoying it seemed. Too grandiose, and not leading anywhere I wanted to go. Gallifreyans are not gods, they're people - I loved the notion (from series 1) that the Doctor was both different and the same as humanity. By the end of series 3, I feel that's been lost: having a planet of people praying to him and having their prayers answered by a major miracle - that puts him apart in a rather dramatic way, in a way where he can't be 'one of us', injecting a sense of hierarchy that I don't think should be there....

I'm not sure if this thought or feeling is very clear, but it adds up to: if the Doctor is a god, then he is something lesser than when he was a person of unusual knowledge and abilities. I heard it said even back in series 2 that the Doctor was 'too much of a superhero'. Though I didn't understand - I think the implication is that back in the 1960's he was a simply a wise man with a TARDIS? - I begin to see the progression. Superheroic tricks (like a sonic screwdriver that can do anything) don't bother me, but to step from 'enhanced human' to something greater than human ... isn't what I want to see.

It does look as if Martha and Jack have both written the Doctor off as unreachable. I hate it, and can only hope that series 3 changes the imbalance, and they can be affectionate friends (if not lovers) again.

Simm was riding it like a bucking bronco and it wasn't a pretty ride, but I don't think he ever got completely bucked off.

Simm was zany and crazy and fun and stole the attention so much that I was fristrated because I didn't want to be seeing a show called "Master Who", I wanted the Doctor. Simm reminded me of the Joker - who is fun, and has some great scenes with Batman, but he shouldn't take the spotlight away from the hero, or camera-time either, which Simm's Master did. And when I didn't think they were redoing Batman, I thought they were redoing Blackpool with the song and dance routines grafted on an action-based story.

Really, I thought it was a bit of a hodge-podge; thematically inconsistent. Obviously a lot of fans didn't mind, but it made me squirm because it wasn't the characters I'd come to see, presented in the way I wanted to see them.

The Doctor loved the Master - and I couldn't bring myself to care. I didn't want to not care. By that point it all felt like a game.