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Don't ever become a pessimist ... A pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun - and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert A. Heinlein, 1907 - 1988

Date: 2007-03-21 02:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
From Heinlein's The Man Who Sold the Moon:
The whole principle [of censorship] is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak.


And this one made me think of Captain Jack Harkness: 1
Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily.


I found this treasure-trove of Heinlein quotations at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Heinlein.

Date: 2007-03-21 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kikibug13.livejournal.com
Well of course it will make you think of Captain Jack... And I don't think he really confuses the two concepts. But I think we've sort of grazed by the comparison between Jack and Woody before... I think. (Right before we got to the discussion of similarities between Jack and Lestat, if I recall correctly)

Date: 2007-03-21 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
It makes sense that I (or we) would be drawn to characters and materials with similar philosophies. It's delightful when they come together like that.

Date: 2007-03-21 03:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kikibug13.livejournal.com
But I think my favourite remains, "The more you love, the more you can love — and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just."

Date: 2007-03-21 04:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I think that has a nice applicability to Captain Jack, too. It's beautiful!

Date: 2007-03-21 04:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kikibug13.livejournal.com
That is... something I read at a time when I was down, and really insecure, and actually very out-of-character jealous, and it just made me realise I didn't have to feel hurt.

But yep, it surely applies to Jack in an entirely different way.

Date: 2007-03-21 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
It's too bad more people don't learn that lesson. I'm really quite thankful I read Heinlein at a young age - it gave me a useful perspective. I think too many people read the likes of Ayn Rand - more people should read Heinlein instead.

Date: 2007-03-21 04:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kikibug13.livejournal.com
Heh. Interestingly enough, I like Ayn Rand too. At least the two books I've read - Anthem and the Fountainhead. A lot less... anti-depressive, true, and quite propaganda-directed, but there were things that really rang loud bells for me.

(Oh... if you do NOT like Ayn Rand, you might enjoy Terry Goodkind considerably less than otherwise... just a warning)

Date: 2007-03-21 04:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Oh, I didn't say I didn't like Ayn Rand - I read all her books with a certain enthusiasm, though I didn't relate to her philosophy in the way I did Heinlein's. I liked the way everyone in her books thought for themelves and probably their confidence-in-the-face-of-society attitude did me a lot of good. I didn't like the way the villains were generally written so they resembled me! It's a bad sign when the only characters you can identify with in a book are the horrible losers. Now, that's depressing.

My comment was mostly because it's my impression that a lot of teens read Rand and not so many read Heinlein any more. I think we need the balance.

Date: 2007-03-21 05:12 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
I don't know of anyone who reads either of them. I haven't either. Rand sounds vile from what I've read about her work. Sort of icon of selfishness.

Date: 2007-03-21 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Sort of icon of selfishness.

She presented her works as such - that's the soundbite version. She believed in the virute of genius, self-motivation, capitalism and a passion for goals. Not so much in love for her fellow man. It isn't as stupid as her detractors portray, and isn't as smart as her promoters think. She's very against altruism and charity; she lost my sympathy entirely when my favourite of her heroes raped the female lead. All the more so when she decided she liked it. Even when I was reading this at fifteen, that offended my sense of feminism.

Basically it's a philosophy of elitism that strikes me as being unrealistic.

I know a lot of young people who learned good messages from her books and I personally rather enjoyed her characterization and writing style. I'd don't know if I'd go so far as to recommend these books to anyone - there are far better world-views around - but I more or less approve of the books as being thought-provoking and interesting.

(Though occasionally you have to skip monologues that last for pages.)

Date: 2007-03-21 05:45 pm (UTC)
ext_120533: Deseine's terracotta bust of Max Robespierre (Default)
From: [identity profile] silverwhistle.livejournal.com
Pro-capitalism, anti-altruism. Sounds pretty evil to me.

Date: 2007-03-21 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Many think so. Somewhat twisted, I think, and not feasible for a society even if it works for an individual - and even in the framework of the books, it only works for that individual if the person is a genius.

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