World Enough and Time

I started Heinlein at some point in my early teens with The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, loved it, and read his subsequent books with glee. I don't know about the details of his philosophies but I loved his attitude. Still do. I think The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was my favourite. I liked "The Sayings of Lazarus Long" too. I wasn't terribly impressed with his writing style, but there was a lot in the content to admire.

I think I already had the social and political attitudes in my head when I read Heinlein (mostly from Shelley!) but it was nice to get all that positive reinforcement.

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cupati.livejournal.com

But then a pessimist says, "The way the world is, I have no choice to expect it to be bad"... I am a pessimist through no choice of my own.

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I bet you wouldn't deny, then, that optimists have more fun - because they can.

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cupati.livejournal.com

Yes, but there's no point in saying not to become a pessimist.

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Well perhaps there could be a point for some people, who are hovering in-between and do have a choice about it? (Been there, done that, and Heinlein's helped a lot in such a moment)

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I like the idea the Heinlein has helped you. I suspect he helped me, too, even if just as a sort of encouraagement and positive reinforcement.

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Well, it's not going to make anyone change their temperament or style just by saying it, but that doesn't mean it can't be said. One can say anything. It won't necessarily make a difference to the listener; it might make a difference to the speaker.

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PURRR... RAH.... Thank you and good morning! :)

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From Heinlein's The Man Who Sold the Moon:

The whole principle [of censorship] is wrong. It's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't have steak.

And this one made me think of Captain Jack Harkness: ¹

Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily.

I found this treasure-trove of Heinlein quotations at http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Heinlein.

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Well of course it will make you think of Captain Jack... And I don't think he really confuses the two concepts. But I think we've sort of grazed by the comparison between Jack and Woody before... I think. (Right before we got to the discussion of similarities between Jack and Lestat, if I recall correctly)

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It makes sense that I (or we) would be drawn to characters and materials with similar philosophies. It's delightful when they come together like that.

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But I think my favourite remains, "The more you love, the more you can love — and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just."

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I think that has a nice applicability to Captain Jack, too. It's beautiful!

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That is... something I read at a time when I was down, and really insecure, and actually very out-of-character jealous, and it just made me realise I didn't have to feel hurt.

But yep, it surely applies to Jack in an entirely different way.

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It's too bad more people don't learn that lesson. I'm really quite thankful I read Heinlein at a young age - it gave me a useful perspective. I think too many people read the likes of Ayn Rand - more people should read Heinlein instead.

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Heh. Interestingly enough, I like Ayn Rand too. At least the two books I've read - Anthem and the Fountainhead. A lot less... anti-depressive, true, and quite propaganda-directed, but there were things that really rang loud bells for me.

(Oh... if you do NOT like Ayn Rand, you might enjoy Terry Goodkind considerably less than otherwise... just a warning)

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Oh, I didn't say I didn't like Ayn Rand - I read all her books with a certain enthusiasm, though I didn't relate to her philosophy in the way I did Heinlein's. I liked the way everyone in her books thought for themelves and probably their confidence-in-the-face-of-society attitude did me a lot of good. I didn't like the way the villains were generally written so they resembled me! It's a bad sign when the only characters you can identify with in a book are the horrible losers. Now, that's depressing.

My comment was mostly because it's my impression that a lot of teens read Rand and not so many read Heinlein any more. I think we need the balance.

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I don't know of anyone who reads either of them. I haven't either. Rand sounds vile from what I've read about her work. Sort of icon of selfishness.

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Sort of icon of selfishness.

She presented her works as such - that's the soundbite version. She believed in the virute of genius, self-motivation, capitalism and a passion for goals. Not so much in love for her fellow man. It isn't as stupid as her detractors portray, and isn't as smart as her promoters think. She's very against altruism and charity; she lost my sympathy entirely when my favourite of her heroes raped the female lead. All the more so when she decided she liked it. Even when I was reading this at fifteen, that offended my sense of feminism.

Basically it's a philosophy of elitism that strikes me as being unrealistic.

I know a lot of young people who learned good messages from her books and I personally rather enjoyed her characterization and writing style. I'd don't know if I'd go so far as to recommend these books to anyone - there are far better world-views around - but I more or less approve of the books as being thought-provoking and interesting.

(Though occasionally you have to skip monologues that last for pages.)

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Pro-capitalism, anti-altruism. Sounds pretty evil to me.

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Many think so. Somewhat twisted, I think, and not feasible for a society even if it works for an individual - and even in the framework of the books, it only works for that individual if the person is a genius.

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duncanmac.livejournal.com

Been there, done that ... and still didn't get the T-shirt.

It's still true anyway. :-)

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There are lots of good T-shirts in this world. You'll find one!

(It will probably have a pun on it, and I'll go running in the other direction.)

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I think most of us pessimists start off as optimists, but there's a limit to the amount of times you can be kicked down and come back smiling, unless you're also a masochist.

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I don't think it's possible to be depressed and to be an optimist, so if events have made a person depressed, that would follow. Depressed people (including myself, when I was depressed) always see the reasons for their depression, and it's a kind of opaque self-justification. It isn't that it's not a valid reaction, but it's not an objective one, either.

I am normally, by temperament, an optimist, but depression inverted my personality and made me a pessimist for a number of years. I hated it.

Optimism and pessimism have very little to do with rationality or real situations. Neither aspect is irrational: just that they're a matter of gut reaction, which is spontaneous and subconscious.

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Optimism and pessimism have very little to do with rationality or real situations. Neither aspect is irrational: just that they're a matter of gut reaction, which is spontaneous and subconscious.

I'm inclined to disagree. I think it's about learned responses. I was convinced for years that my life could only get better. I did well at university, and was full of confidence that the world was at my feet. As the years passed, and the rejection letters mounted up, I could no longer believe that in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise. Every time my hopes were built up over a job application, they would be dashed. You stop hoping when you realise that it only gets you hurt more.

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I think it's about learned responses.

I had a sense you were going to say that - ! And I of course have no way to prove my case, one way or the other.

If it is a matter of learned responses, then, does one person learn one set of responses, and another learn a different set, from essentially the same experiences?

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Because some people don't know any better. They fail to learn from experiences.

If someone holds to a world-view, despite experiences that prove it to be wrong or at any rate cast serious doubt on its validity, they are either deluded or stupid.

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some people don't know any better. They fail to learn from experiences

I'd say that people learn different things from different or similar experiences. Some learn that optimism keeps them going. Wouldn't you rather feel better if you could?

The world-view can be one way or another - it has nothing to do with temperament, which is established by neuro-chemistry - and can of course be changed, and often is. Hence my descent into depression. Recovering from depression was not a matter of changing my circumstances, it was a matter of changing my neuro-chemistry with pills and regaining physical health. My circumstances haven't changed much at all. What has changed is my ability to cope with them.

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Wouldn't you rather feel better if you could?

Not if it meant putting on blinkers, living in a fool's paradise of unrealistic hopes that would never be met, and ignoring the wider socio-economic/cultural climate. I have seen the economic and social fabric of this country torn up and twisted into something ugly since 1980. Had I been 15, 20 years older than I am, I could probably have got the sort of job and life I expected, and now be nearing retirement. But I would still have had to cope with the dumbing-down of teaching, of the rise of a cheap celebrity culture that devalues learning and genuine achievement. Some of my older friends who are in academic teaching are now looking forward to retirement because they are disillusioned with what higher education has become. Museums, too - I've told you what's happened there.

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I agree with all your comments about how rotten the world is, but I don't think that is a matter of temperament one way or the other, though the line between disillusionment and depression is a fine one.

As you know, I think it's important to have a sense of reality - to see truth as it is, good or bad.

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