Fannish migration and pimping...

[fajrdrako]

catalenamara's interesting post on fandoms today made me want to answer her questions in a post of my own. I'd love to hear and see other people's answers, too.

On writing this, and thinking about it, it clarified a little of what fandom is for me. It's falling in love with a book, show, or movie, and then finding other people to share my enthusiasm with. The enthusiasm was there from the beginning; the fandom was a bonus. In some cases, before the Net, I was a fandom of one. It's more fun when you've hundreds of people to share you passion - especially when it comes to slash fandoms - but that isn't the impetus.

Have you ever followed friends/favorite authors into a fandom without ever having seen/read the source material?

No, of course not. I can't even imagine wanting to. I have watched shows on the recommendations of my friends. Sometimes it takes - Professionals, Horatio Hornblower, Doctor Who. Usually it doesn't - all the other shows out there.

But I'm not sure what the question means: I'm not sure how to divorce a fandom from its show. I've never 'been a fan' of something I didn't watch or read. I suppose there are gradations of this - I call myself an X-Men fan, though I don't think the movies live up to the quality of the comics. But this doesn't mean I don't watch the movies, it just means they aren't what made me a fan.

Have you ever really enjoyed the source material, read the work of specific authors into a fandom, and yet have no interest in the fandom as a whole?

Uh... no. Not really. I have trouble even getting my head around the question. Have I ever... read only one author in a fandom? No. I suppose I only read Harry Potter when I'm betaing for friends, or when something has been brought to my attention, but that has nothing much to do with the fandom. It isn't my fandom and I don't consider myself in it even if I dabble - and there are are all sorts of reasong for dabbling, from curiosity to affection for a certain character or pairing, or even, in some cases, I suppose, horrified and incredulous fascination. Don't usually spent time on that last, though.
For instance, calatenamara mentions: Digression: if you want a truly kickass WONDERFUL crossover, here’s an awesome Supernatural/Harry Potter crossover: Old Country by Astolat. I'm sure it's wonderful and I might like it if I read it, but the idea of it gives me the shudders: you'd have to bribe me or torture me to get me to read it. (It might be possible to pique my curiosity, but I can't think how.)

Q. Have you ever been strenuously pimped by your friends into another fandom and immediately fell in love with the source material.

Yes, several times. The Professionals and Doctor Who being cases in point. Though I suppose it depends on your definition of "immediately". I've never become hooked on a fandom on only one viewing of something. It took three or four episodes of two series of Doctor Who to do it. Probably about the same for Pros.

Books, I fall for harder and faster and longer: Halfway through The Fellowship of the Ring I was doomed - it happened in Bree, of course, with the introduction of Strider. Three pages into The Game of Kings, when the pig got drunk. But these, I found on my own, though my father had vaguely recommended The Lord of the Rings to me as something he thought I'd like, though he hadn't read it himself, and a less fannish man I' can't imagine.

Have you ever gotten into a TV show/movie before your friends and busily pimped the source material to them in the hopes that a fandom would ensue?

I like to think I don't pimp. Ever. Some say I do. But, yes. Dunnett novels, for example. Stingray.

Q. Have you ever gotten into a TV show/movie and tried to pimp it to your friends only to find out that they’d just gotten into it as well and were about to pimp right back?

No. Can't think of any case where that's happened.

No, wait a minute. On my first meeting Guy Gavriel Kay, in the course of our conversation, he asked me if I'd ever heard of Dorothy Dunnett. I was speechless for a second. He proceeded to recommend the books to me. I recovered and explained and a delightful conversation ensued. And then, of course, we re-encountered each other in various ways in the course of burgeoning Dunnett fandom.

Q: Have you ever been part of a mass migration into another fandom?

No. On the whole, I am late to find fandoms, and slow to evolve from one to the next. When I do switch, it tends to be self-directed and in a totally unpredictable direction. (Doctor Who? I'd have bet good money I'd never be into that one. Not in a million years. Hah!)

What I have found generally is that, rather than follow friends to another fandom, when I move from one fandom to another I get a whole new set of friends that is almost entirely different. And though I remain friends with those in previous fandoms, and these people mean a lot fo me (tip of the hat here to msmoat and acampbell), we tend to be in touch much less. There is overlap - especially if I factor in slash friends from the early K/S days - but not as much as you might expect. In some ways, fandom is a small world. In other ways, it's a big one.

Comments

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>But I'm not sure what the question means: I'm not sure how to divorce a fandom from its show. I've never 'been a fan' of something I didn't watch or read.

Neither have I. But I knew so many people back in the 80s who were reading Pros fic without ever having seen the show (or else they'd only seen a handful of those bad camera copies.) I just couldn't go there; I need to see, and love the show, before I could enjoy the fic.

There was one woman at Friscon panel years ago who was enthusing about Sentinel fic, then went on to state she disliked the show and had only ever seen one episode. That was a statement I just couldn't wrap my brain around. I don't have enough fannish time the way it is (smile); I can't imagine spending any of it on reading fic from a show I disliked or had never seen.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I knew so many people back in the 80s who were reading Pros fic without ever having seen the show (or else they'd only seen a handful of those bad camera copies.) I just couldn't go there; I need to see, and love the show, before I could enjoy the fic.

Yes. A love of the show gave me a love of the fic; it doesn't work the other way round, and reading fic about characters I don't know isn't particularly interesting. There are exceptions - for instance, it was a Smallville story I read by Jane St. Clair (already a favourite fic writer) that gave me my first taste of Smallville. But I would never have read another Smallville fic if I hadn't loved the show.

who was enthusing about Sentinel fic, then went on to state she disliked the show and had only ever seen one episode.

Wow. It just goes to show - we all have our own way of approching fandom, and there are probably as many ways as there are fans.

I don't have enough fannish time the way it is (smile);

Well, yes! Isn't that the truth!

I can't imagine spending any of it on reading fic from a show I disliked or had never seen.

Yes. If I am intrigued by the sound of a fandom, I'll check out the show - I would never start with the fic, and if I tried to, I'd never continue.

There's a sort of second level of fannishness that I don't ever get into, but a lot of people do. Merlin, for example, is like that with me now: I like the show, a lot. I'd probably like the fic and I might get around to reading it. But I don't care enough to seek it out, while I'm still starved for any Torchwood fic or anything to do with Torchwood and I will grab at passing droplets of TW fannishness like a starving man in a desert. And I only count that level of personal obsession as fannishness: things I can't get enough of, things that make me smile to think of them, things I want to write about. There aren't many of those, and the other stuff doesn't matter.

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>Yes. A love of the show gave me a love of the fic; it doesn't work the other way round, and reading fic about characters I don't know isn't particularly interesting. There are exceptions - for instance, it was a Smallville story I read by Jane St. Clair (already a favourite fic writer) that gave me my first taste of Smallville. But I would never have read another Smallville fic if I hadn't loved the show.

Exactly – I’m always willing to read a story by a favorite author. But if I don’t love the show, I won’t read any more in that fandom. If I do love the show, though, it’s so wonderful to dive into the fic, and experience our shared creative worlds. (Jane St. Clair rocks; I love her work.)

>>>who was enthusing about Sentinel fic, then went on to state she disliked the show and had only ever seen one episode.

>>>Wow. It just goes to show - we all have our own way of approching fandom, and there are probably as many ways as there are fans.

Yes, definitely, which is why I decided to write this response after I read the original post. I don’t like being catalogued or shoehorned into someone else’s definition of what fandom is all about.

Thinking about her post, it occurred to me that I have met a few fans over the years who always maintain an ironic distance between them and their fandom(s) source material. I’ve never quite got what that’s all about. Myself, if I enjoy something I want to jump right in and enjoy it. My approach certainly doesn’t rule out intellectual analysis, nor does it mean I’m uncritical about the source material. Every show has episodes (or whole seasons) that suck; many them “jump the shark” at some point in time or other; a lot of them have problematic issues of many kinds.

But I just don’t get the ironic distance. Is it a coverup for vulnerability? Or are there a lot of fans out there who aren’t into the source material but are into the fannish community to the point where they will travel from fandom to fandom just because that’s where “everyone” is.

>>> There's a sort of second level of fannishness that I don't ever get into, but a lot of people do. Merlin, for example, is like that with me now: I like the show, a lot. I'd probably like the fic and I might get around to reading it.

To my knowledge, Merlin hasn’t aired in the US yet. But with all this chatter about it I’m curious enough to give it a try.

>>>>But I don't care enough to seek it out, while I'm still starved for any Torchwood fic or anything to do with Torchwood and I will grab at passing droplets of TW fannishness like a starving man in a desert. And I only count that level of personal obsession as fannishness: things I can't get enough of, things that make me smile to think of them, things I want to write about. There aren't many of those, and the other stuff doesn't matter.

Oh yes! I love that fannish stage where I’ll seize everything regarding my core fandoms. It’s so energizing, truly like being in love. That’s when I want *everything* - the fic, the meta, the long discussions at room parties, conventions and via email or telephone, the pics, the trivia. Everything.

Then there is that other level, where I like the show, and will read fic if it shows up on a friend’s rec list or crack_van, but I won’t go actively searching for it. For example, I just found a couple of Buffy/Spike recs on crack_van; that’s a pairing I like a *lot* but never go seeking fic. But if it falls into my mailbox, as it were, with interesting recs, then I’ll read these stories, and maybe go looking for more by the same author.

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>>I suppose I only read Harry Potter when I'm betaing for friends, or when something has been brought to my attention, but that has nothing much to do with the fandom. It isn't my fandom and I don't consider myself in it even if I dabble...

That describes my non-involvement with Harry Potter. I have a couple of good friends who write HP fic. I love their writing and I read their stories. They were excellent, and if they write more HP, I'll read their stories. But HP isn't my fandom; I won't go looking for any fic on my own.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's exactly my relationship with Harry Potter. Not my fandom, but there are fics and vids and the like that I've loved.

[catalenamara.livejournal.com]

>>>On my first meeting Guy Gavriel Kay, in the course of our conversation, he asked me if I'd ever heard of Dorothy Dunnett. I was speechless for a second. He proceeded to recommend the books to me. I recovered and explained and a delightful conversation ensued. And then, of course, we re-encountered each other in various ways in the course of burgeoning Dunnett fandom.

How very cool!

>>>(Doctor Who? I'd have bet good money I'd never be into that one. Not in a million years. Hah!)

LOL! I hear you on that. I'd seen a handful of the older Dr Who episodes, mostly Pertwee and Baker, but the show and concept didn't grab me. Then came Eccleston and Tennant, and - wow! I was there!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

How very cool!

It really was - and how seldom that happens in life. "She's my favourite author!" - "Mine too!" - and that for me is the essence of fandom. Sharing the thrill.

I'd seen a handful of the older Dr Who episodes, mostly Pertwee and Baker, but the show and concept didn't grab me.

Yes. I was bored. I still am, when I go back and try to look at the old episodes, even though I respect them a lot more now, and may well watchmore. It's the new ones - the style, the perspective, the writing, the characters - that's what got me. I hope it works as well for me with Steven Moffatt in charge, and there's no reason it shouldn't - but I won't know till I see it, because there is no predicting.

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

Have you ever really enjoyed the source material, read the work of specific authors into a fandom, and yet have no interest in the fandom as a whole?

That's my reaction to Harry Potter too, though there are overtones of personal philosophy (in my case) that would sound strange to you. It doesn't help that (AFAIK) most HP fen are teenage boys and girls. I *never* liked being a teenager and have discovered little in common with most people that age.

Have you ever gotten into a TV show/movie before your friends and busily pimped the source material to them in the hopes that a fandom would ensue?

My dear, you have been talking about Dorothy Dunnett for about as far back as I have known you. This has not made me a fan of same ... yet. I *do* intend to read these books. But there are only 24 hours in a day and 168 hours in a week; I'm finding that too much of it is wasted on work and various forms of health maintenance (aka sleep).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That's my reaction to Harry Potter too, though there are overtones of personal philosophy (in my case) that would sound strange to you

Like what? You've made me curious! I promise not to argue if you tell me.

It doesn't help that (AFAIK) most HP fen are teenage boys and girls.

Are they? I have no idea what the statistics are, but the only HP fans I know tend to be in the 30-60 year old group, just because that's the age my friends tend to be and I don't really know any HP fans outisde my own circle. Not that I don't have younger and older friends, of course.... I find that in general, fandom transcends age. Which is one of the things I love about it.

One hears a lot on the media about kids who are into Harry Potter but the teens I know don't like it, and the people I know who are fans, are much older than that.

I *never* liked being a teenager and have discovered little in common with most people that age.

I didn't much like being a teen, it's a horrible time, and when I was a teen there were a lot of teens I knew and didn't like. But I think it's agist to condemn an age group - teens are no better or worse than people of any age, and I do love reading about teens. Miles Vorkosigan was a teen in the first few Bujold novels. Gen is a teen in the first few Attolia novels. I also have a taste for coming-of-age novels, and the protagonists there are often teens. So... yeah, I gues I like novels about teens! What I have in common with them, is that they are discovering what life is all about. As Are younger people, and older people, and everyone else of any age.

My dear, you have been talking about Dorothy Dunnett for about as far back as I have known you. This has not made me a fan of same ...

Ah-hah! The proof of the pudding! I wonder if you'd have read them by now if your sister weren't a fan. [heh]

But there are only 24 hours in a day and 168 hours in a week; I'm finding that too much of it is wasted on work and various forms of health maintenance (aka sleep).

Oh, so true. So pathetically true. Especially when it's so time-consuming and difficult to get around these days.

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

[overtones of personal philosophy] Like what? You've made me curious!

I'll talk more generally about Root Ground philosophy later (though I will admit that "Root Ground" has a lot in common with the Buddhist concept of "Basic Path"). The point here is that I don't feel comfortable with "magic" or with protraying "technology" as "magic." There is nothing obscure or occult about basic knowledge of any kind, and portraying it as such bothers the **** [generic four-letter word] out of my Rationalist beliefs. [It's a reflection of that, I suspect, that I view any acceptable Higher Power to be not just Ens Realissimum but Ens Rationissimum or 'Ultimate Mind' as well.] Rationalism is very deeply part of my philosophy. I also don't care much for astrology, numerology, and other such stuporstitions (beliefs that strip from you the power of logical thought and criticism), for much the same reason.

OTOH, I look at myself in a mirror and wonder how much I sound like Ms. Umbridge to others. [I am also reminded of my sister here, for reasons that should be obvious.]

it's agist to condemn an age group.

Point taken. I didn't mean to condemn all teens, just that I sometimes doubt I have much in common with them. I *do* enjoy some coming-of-age novels, though I find some of them far too emotional or psychological. I will admit I do not know many HP fans, but I suspect many of the people I deal with outside of work (in the pagan/wicca groups) *are* fen of same.

I wonder if you'd have read [the Dunnett books] by now if your sister weren't a fan.

I have been more generally biased in favor of future (over historical) fiction for a *long* time; if anything, I am trying to switch to a better appreciation of historical fiction nowadays. The key word remains "yet."

I find I am feeling very grumpy about lack of time lately. The bus strike and other such sillinesses are costing me time -- and old age [with a loss of brain function] is getting Too Close for my peace of mind. :-(

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm the freak here: I was reading Highlander slash for at least a couple of months before I actually started watching the show (other than the occasional bit witnessed while visiting my parents).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What did you think of it? Was it the characters, or the situation, or the individual writers you liked? What drew you to it?

Even though I was a devoted Highlander fan for years, I never read much of the fic. I'm not sure why. Still haven't. (Recommendations woudl be welcome - !)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I've been pimping Torchwood to people I know and it's paying off. Sometimes I find out they secretly fanboi, which is great.

Recently a friend of my husband's was here visiting and mentioned that he liked Doctor Who, so I showed him the first ep of TW and he insisted on watching two more. Excellent. *cackle*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, excellent! I approve heartily.

And yes, though I wouldn't say I was exactly pimping, or not on purpose, I do tend to invite people over to see things I like. I showed Merlin to maaboroshi and maaseru, and they loved it. I invited some friends from the local SF crowd - I have a new arthurian show I think you'd enjoy." And they did. I've had all sorts of Torchwood parties with great success - though I think Beulah is the only one I've managed to hook on The Sarah Jane Adventures.

[elebridith]

Have you ever followed friends/favorite authors into a fandom without ever having seen/read the source material?
I read SPN fics before I saw one episode, because there were so many crossovers to Angel/Buffy and some of them by authors I liked, but I don't consider myself an SPN fan, so no real following here.

Have you ever really enjoyed the source material, read the work of specific authors into a fandom, and yet have no interest in the fandom as a whole?
Harry Potter seems the common thing here *g* Love the books, read stories if my friends write them, but don't want to be in the fandom.

Q. Have you ever been strenuously pimped by your friends into another fandom and immediately fell in love with the source material.
I rarely discover fandoms by myself, so yes, practically every time.

Have you ever gotten into a TV show/movie before your friends and busily pimped the source material to them in the hopes that a fandom would ensue?
The guy who brought me into Buffy/Angel didn't know Doctor Who! Enter me with the DVD box. *g* I have no clue if he's fandom active, but I know he likes it.

Q. Have you ever gotten into a TV show/movie and tried to pimp it to your friends only to find out that they’d just gotten into it as well and were about to pimp right back?
*thinks* No. Ditto the mass migration. If I have a fandom, I may stay dormant for a while, but usually it wakes up every other time.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I read SPN fics before I saw one episode, because there were so many crossovers to Angel/Buffy and some of them by authors I liked, but I don't consider myself an SPN fan, so no real following here.

Yes. Crossovers are an interesting case. One writes crossovers when one loves both sources. The reader may not even know one of the sources, but still is tempted into reading because of the fandom they know. Sometimes it works really well. It at least expands fannish horizons.

And yet, desperate as I am for Torchwood fic, I'm likely to skip the crossovers with fandoms I'm not into. Unless I have nothing at all left to read, which, the way TW fans are writing (what a prolific lot!), won't be for a long time.

Harry Potter seems the common thing here *g*

Yes. It is just so very famous. A sort of special case of fandom, just as it's a special case of literature. The only analogous fandom I can think of would be Lord of the Rings, which has had a following since the 1960s and has been expanding ever since.

The guy who brought me into Buffy/Angel didn't know Doctor Who!

Hee! People tried so long and hard to get me into Buffy - and it just didn't take, though I didn't hate the show. It just didn't have a lot of appeal. It wasn't until Buster sent me a set of the DVDs that I started watching with care. I still don't feel fannish about it. In fact, I feel fairly critical - but I'm also enjoying it immensely, and enjoying commenting on it.

Firefly, on the other hand, I adored passionately from the first episode I saw.

[elebridith]

I like to read crossovers that make sense somehow. SPN and Buffy/Angel totally makes sense, whereas Potter and LOTR does not. For me at least. Even if they both have wizards. Ok, small step back - I hold the view that *anything* can be done by a good writer, so I'm not saying it's impossible. I just don't look for it. But crossovers can definitely expand your horizons! But agreed - I'd have to think very hard if I should find a universe to cross TW with...

I think it's hard to define if and how deep you are in "fandom" for something. Are you if you love the show, but don't read fanfiction? Where's the line? I consider myself a TW fan, I read fanfic but I don't show up actively in comms, discussing things and such. You enjoy watching and discussing Buffy, but I guess you're not actively searching for fanfic. Is that already fandom? I'd say yes, because I don't restrict it to fanfic. You like something, you share it with others. That's the basic definition and I think that's how you put it at the beginning of your post.
And then you stumble over the scary elite fans. *g* Oh dear... :-)

[gillo]

People tried so long and hard to get me into Buffy - and it just didn't take, though I didn't hate the show. It just didn't have a lot of appeal. It wasn't until Buster sent me a set of the DVDs that I started watching with care. I still don't feel fannish about it. In fact, I feel fairly critical - but I'm also enjoying it immensely, and enjoying commenting on it.

::coughs:: More please?

Is this a fandom friends have dragged you into despite yourself?

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

You fell at Bree? You cheap whore. You wouldn't catch me giving it up that easy. They didn't get me until the Night on Weathertop. (Which is what, the very next chapter or something?)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You fell at Bree? You cheap whore.

Yes. Guilty as charged. My secret is out. I put up no shred of resistence. Wanton and brazen.

They didn't get me until the Night on Weathertop. (Which is what, the very next chapter or something?)

What restraint!

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

What restraint!

Damn right.

[topgeargirl2.livejournal.com]

At the moment I could never get into Twilight. I don't understand the hype surrounding it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have paid so little attention to Twilight I don't know a lot about it, but my understanding is that it's a book and a movie mostly of interest to young teen girls. Not being a young teen girl, I assume it's just not for my demographic, any more than things written for young teen boys, and there's simply no reason I might be interested.

That being said, a thirteen year old of my acquaintance recently told me "It's boring - nothing happens."

I suspect I might like the romanticism, but I'm not tempted to find out.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, intriguing! About to post on my journal. Not only do I have a long opinion, lots of old-school fans of various fandoms are readers and will have their own stories of migrations to tell.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Good! And I find it an interesting question: what makes a fan a fan? and, do all fans see their role/nature/identity in the same way? I suspect not, but I suspect there's significant overlap, and variations, and it's all interesting.