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fajrdrakoI thought this article by Noah Berlatsky was fun, even if it's at least as much over-the-top in tone as it accuses Torchwood as being. There were lines I liked, like:
Torchwood isn't so much a TV series as a fangirl’s wet dream.... which made me laugh, and don't I love it that it is!
Like many reviewers, especially male reviewers, he takes the approach that the norm in TV has always been 'stories for men' and that there is something remarkable in writing stories which are geared to appeal to women - even though many TV shows have been doing this kind of thing surreptitiously for years. And then there are the shows who try so earnestly not to do it. TV production is a funny thing. And I suspect he's be surprised to think that I think his perceptions are - not sexist, but a little clueless in that he is surprised by things women would have told him all along, had he been listening.
And though he seems to distance himself from the fanfic community (male or female) I thought his comments in reply to comments indicated an uncommon knowledge of the subject. And the line about Bush/Bin Laden slash was a stretch, hmm?
In Torchwood, though, pretty much everyone is bi, and so the fear of feminizing emotional display is suspended. I'm not sure I understand the cause and effect he's getting at here, but I think he restates it at the end of the same paragraph: engaging in anal sex frees Jack from having to act like he’s got a pole up his ass. In between he pretty much states a lot of the many reasons I love Captain Jack Harkness:
A mysterious time traveler with a tragic past, Captain Jack would be all broodingly taciturn and repressed in any other show. Here he’s flamboyant, flirting outrageously with middle-aged secretaries, babbling about his fetish for office spaces, and impulsively resurrecting a team member because he can’t bear to see him go. He cries when he’s sad, hugs those he loves, and giggles when someone says something funny. And, in the second season at least, he’s in a stable, caring, and supportive relationship with his adorably dry teammate Ianto Jones (Gareth David-Lloyd.)Another interesting comment: the prize [for idiotic subplots] has to go to Owen Harper (Burn Gorman), who, late in the second season, acquires a never-before-mentioned dead fiancee. I've never seen fans pick up on this much, and though I love "Fragments", I've still been unable to reconcile Owen's backstory as given there with the rest of Torchwood established reality. It's like a return and revision of the alternate-Owen created by Adam, but not the real Owen at all.
It's also very American in tone and content, and Torchwood, despite the fact that it borrows ideas shamelessly from American TV shows, is not an American show.
At the risk of sounding sexist, I'd like to see a similar article written by a female critic.
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no subject
Date: 2008-10-30 05:06 pm (UTC)Oh my god WORD. That backstory made me roll my eyes so hard. I mean, it does fit in nicely with how Owen lost his shit after Diane left - I didn't quite buy that before, but if he's got grief for a fiancee he never properly dealt with, then it makes a lot of sense. But other than that, it's silly and doesn't fit. If I'd come across it in fanfic, I would have lunged for the back button so fast I'd leave mousetracks on the browser.
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Date: 2008-10-30 05:17 pm (UTC)It doesn't fit the backstory they'd already given or hinted at, no. And though it doesn't necessarily contradict most of the facts we alredy had, it's so radically out of character for Owen that it still fails to account for how and why he could change so much. Massive doses of retcon? Skrull impostor?
When it aired I loved it for the surprise factor, but it just doesn't seem to fit into the same continuity as all the rest of Owen's story.
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Date: 2008-10-30 05:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-30 06:55 pm (UTC)So I felt. For our smart-mouthed, video-game addicted, sloppy, stroppy first season Owen (who avoids emotional commitment) to fall unexpectedly in love with Diane and not know how to handle it made perfect sense to me. To have a backstory in which he'a successful and respectable doctor, and a loving fiancee - well. It means he was a bad boy nonconformist as a teen and as a medical student, who mended his ways and became a model doctor/fiance for Katie's sake, and then changed back again? This doesn't work: it's too many changes, and really feels like a retcon. (In the true on-Torchwood meaning of the word.) Multiple personality disorder?
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Date: 2008-11-01 09:51 pm (UTC)there's no way in hell they planned that for his character from the beginning
same as with jack and gray - that was completely made up post series 1 (and WAY after the jack we met in DW) - they could have gone in a different direction, giving jack some past trauma, having to do with his missing 2 years? and the 'adam' episode could have been the catalyst for his remembering this (instead of being a pretty useless episode that really kinda pissed me off)
am i ranting? sorry
toshiko's story was the only one that made sense to me (even given the info we got on her from mary in GBG - that could have been fabricated by torchwood)
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Date: 2008-11-02 12:17 pm (UTC)Yes. Very definitely. And how much it fits depends on how much I squint. My problems with it aren't so much logical as psychological. I can't see how a person with the root personality we see in "Fragments" could become the Owen we got to know in series 1. Not that he couldn't become cynical or bitter, but that he couldn't change his personal style - he's still be the same person, just the same person with a different attitude.
same as with jack and gray
The problem with that storyline is that it was clumsily written. For me, the worse problem with it was that the kid they chose to play Jack in "Adam" wasn't a good actor, and didn't resemble Jack.
instead of being a pretty useless episode that really kinda pissed me off
Really? It was one of my favourites of the season. Not that I liked the visions of Jack's past, but I liked the rest.
am i ranting? sorry
No, no, feel free. I have my rant triggers too.
toshiko's story was the only one that made sense to me
I liked that part. I liked Ianto's too. I liked Owen's, but it didn't make a lot of sense. Jack's was all right, but I'd have liked to see him less (apparently) passive for a century.
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Date: 2008-11-02 12:28 pm (UTC)exACTly - the owen we came to know in series 1 you'd never imagine him wearing a suit and being all professional(not to mention the webcontent that was put up for him, basically saying he was NOT professional at all) and then we're supposed to just accept that he radically reverted to a 16-yr-old after joining torchwood?
jack's backstory, i think, was just not well thought-out - it didn't mech with what we already 'knew' about jack
if he'd been suffering from this horrible guilt of losing his brother at such a young age(and blaming himself) he must have been really REALLY good at repressing it
i still wish they'd explored his missing 2 years instead, but apparently RTD 'forgot' about that
and i liked ianto's story, too, it fit well with his character and GDL's added crying moment as he walks away was brilliant
the only problem with it is that it was sort of just a 'fun, little romp with a pterodactyl and rolling on the floor with jack' and it really didn't give us much further insight or background info on ianto
it DID however reveal more about jack - like he wasn't so tight-lipped about 51st century pheromones or eating dinosaurs(meaning he *could* have been expecting ianto to think he was just joking, but you never know)
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Date: 2008-11-02 12:45 pm (UTC)Right. And there's no fudge factor to fit into the equation. I like the Owen of first series better, though I complained about him at the time. Interesting character, interesting departure from all the 'doctor' stereotypes I could think of. And very much a man who is too clever for his own good. He seemed to lose intelligence in series 2, I thought.
And though to rail at fate and be depressed by the horrible death of a lover is plausible enough, it isn't rare or different. Everyone whose lover dies suddenly and prematurely goes through that. It's only virtue was in being unexpected and surprising, and it was only surprising because it was it was unsupported by canon.
jack's backstory, i think, was just not well thought-out - it didn't mech with what we already 'knew' about jack
I found Grey to be the least interesting part of it, especially when Grey's story wasn't very well written or, IMHO, well acted. I do like the notion that Jack became a soldier at a young age because warmongering aliens attacked his home.
And the kid wasn't pretty enough to be the Face of Boe.
if he'd been suffering from this horrible guilt of losing his brother at such a young age(and blaming himself) he must have been really REALLY good at repressing it
Yes.
and i liked ianto's story, too, it fit well with his character and GDL's added crying moment as he walks away was brilliant
Charming, plausible, and touching. Yes. Yes. We got a few details about Ianto and got more of a sense of where he came from, psychologically; but still nothing about family, background, education, where he lives, and so on. I don't mind that they're teasing us, I'm just impatient to know!
it DID however reveal more about jack - like he wasn't so tight-lipped about 51st century pheromones or eating dinosaurs
Maybe he was testing Ianto, or maybe it was because he knew Ianto knew more about him than the others, because of having been in Torchwood One. It's clear in series 1 that the other team members didn't know his age, or his past, and in "Small Worlds" he even lies to Gwen about it, to keep his secrets.
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Date: 2008-11-02 01:04 pm (UTC)the only excuse i can make for "Gray's" performance is that he bacme Michael Myers after being tortured by aliens and therefor had no emotions to show - i was not sympathetic to his character at all, but JB did a good job of looking haunted and sad ad remorseful when being buried alive
or maybe it was because he knew Ianto knew more about him than the others, because of having been in Torchwood One
was ALWAYS my personal canon that ianto knew way more about jack than he let on (more even than jack thought ianto knew) - was, in part, the basis for my fic that i'm still working on
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Date: 2008-11-02 01:21 pm (UTC)Not entirely. I didn't like Owen in series 1, but I found him increasingly interesting, even fascination, the high point probably being "Combat". I came to have a reluctant respect for him. Series 2 ended that entirely; I thought he had a different personality every few episodes, and I hated his scenes with Tosh. I was glad when he died, even though those scenes were heartbreaking.
i was not sympathetic to his character at all, but JB did a good job of looking haunted and sad ad remorseful when being buried alive
Yes. Grey was just badly written, in my opinion. I didn't feel bad for him because he hadn't been set up as a personality.
was ALWAYS my personal canon that ianto knew way more about jack than he let on (more even than jack thought ianto knew)
I like that idea, and it fits what we see.
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Date: 2008-11-02 01:27 pm (UTC)gwen is possibly the most consistent character in that she pisses me off on a regular basis and yet i still like her(even when i'm hating her, i like her)
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Date: 2008-11-02 01:35 pm (UTC)Well, that's it - I didn't like him at all, but he was interesting and entertaining. He wasn't either in series 2. I'm not sure what he was but throughout all of series 2 his personality never coalesced into something I believed in. And frankly, I resented him for the "woebegone unloved Tosh" theme that I disliked.
I agree with you about Gwen, but I don't find her inconsistent at all. I'd say she and Ianto have the most consistent characterization.
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Date: 2008-11-02 01:41 pm (UTC)ianto is stoic, but he has... breakdown moments that go into the extreme - which is very normal for a personality like his, but also unpredictable
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Date: 2008-11-02 05:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-02 06:10 pm (UTC)that's why we spend so much time thinking about him, it's all about his personality O_o
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Date: 2008-11-03 12:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-11-01 10:28 am (UTC)Same thing goes to Tosh, I guess. I mean, oh, the drama. Did she REALLY had to go through all the UNIT imprison thing? Really? Isn't it just an overkill? Too much des ex machina, I'd say.
Fragments
Date: 2008-11-02 01:27 pm (UTC)I haven't heard the audiobook; I believe they cut things. One of these days I'll listen to it.
I liked Tosh's story, though I was shocked at the human rights abuses of UNIT. I think they're setting something up there.
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Date: 2008-10-30 07:04 pm (UTC)Huh?
I never thought that Torchwood was particularly aimed at a female audience. Neither would my Dad. It's male/female/gay/straight/bi-friendly.
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Date: 2008-10-30 07:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-30 07:44 pm (UTC)I know plenty of guys who like the show; one straight friend declares loudly, "I'm not gay, but Captain Jack even makes *me* wet!"
Finally, I've certainly sounded off about Owen's bizarre backstory, He actually has about three backstories (S1 implied, "Adam" and "Fragments"), but then there are at least 3 or 6 different versions of *Owen,* too, rather depending on who was writing him any given day. I don't think they ever really knew what to do with the character, which is too bad, since they ended up essentially wasting Burn Gorman's considerable talent. think what he could have done with a consistently well-written Owen!
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Date: 2008-10-30 07:51 pm (UTC)I agree. I didn't dislike it, but... it wasn't one of the better episodes of series 2. Basically it was crack!fic on the screen. I would say "Journey's End" had the worst writing (and the worst plot) of series 2. Not crack, just badly conceived and not fixed in the scripting.
I know plenty of guys who like the show; one straight friend declares loudly, "I'm not gay, but Captain Jack even makes *me* wet!"
I approve. Everbody's got their limits!
then there are at least 3 or 6 different versions of *Owen,* too, rather depending on who was writing him any given day
So very true! So I fall back on my non-explanation of "multiple personality disorder". Some of his story arcs worked in themselves, but there was very little coherent character continuity, especially in series 2. I came to miss the snarky and abrasive Owen we'd first met, who was at least consistent.
And yes, it wasn't fair to Burn Gorman, who really proved how good he was with every different take on Owen. None of it was his fault.
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Date: 2008-10-30 10:46 pm (UTC)That line was first said by a female critic a few weeks ago.
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Date: 2008-10-31 11:06 am (UTC)Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 01:31 pm (UTC)I thought I was pretty clear in the review that there have been lots of TV shows for women; what's new about Torchwood (from my perspective) is the use of slash to cater to that demographic.
For what it's worth; I'm not part of the fanfic community, but I have friends and close relations who are, and I respect it. And yes, I'd be interested in seeing more mainstream articles about fanfic by women, too.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 03:02 pm (UTC)Nice to see you here! That review was fun.
However, that line (about the pole and the ass, and Jack) is definitely mine.
Good. I'm glad you spoke up; I hate it when I misjudge people.
what's new about Torchwood (from my perspective) is the use of slash to cater to that demographic.
Yes, and aren't we glad that it does! My confusion, I suppose came from the "we've always known what we want" perspective: the novelty is that they're giving it to us, and not in the veiled or ambiguous way we got it in other shows.
For what it's worth; I'm not part of the fanfic community, but I have friends and close relations who are, and I respect it.
I find that as time goes by, more and more peple outside the community are saying that, and nothing could make me happier. When I started writing fanfic it was highly disreputable, and slash was beyond the pale. Now it is increasingly accepted, tolerated, and even encouraged by outsiders. Fic writers become bestselling professional writers. It's a beautiful new world.
I'd be interested in seeing more mainstream articles about fanfic by women, too.
I think it will happen. There's a habit of secrecy to overcome: talking about the 'guilty pleasure' in the broad light of public forums can be intimidating. Or liberating.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 07:15 pm (UTC)I'm uneasy about the article, but then anything about "catering to women" makes me uneasy. There have been some spectacular cock-ups made in the name of "catering to women".
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 07:30 pm (UTC)True, but - are you thinking of any particular cock-ups?
The joy of fandom in general, and slash fandom in particular, is that it really is generated by fans for fans. There are men here, and that's great, but the tone of the fandom as a whole is set by women writing for women.
And I think this is one of the reasons it is so misunderstood by the broadcast media (whose tone is set by and for men), who are perplexed by it. And it's a reason that articles like Noah's are a step to translating this eality to the rest of the world.
The question remains as to whether we want to be translated, or publicized, rather than just ignored. A cocoon of secrecy and silence served us well for a long time - but didn't bring us shows like Torchwood where the slash was overt, and I'm not sure a low profile doesn't harm us in the end. Not that I'm advocating either side of the fence here; just musing out loud.
In a world where 'fandom' is often characterized publicly as 'weirdos who live in their mother's basement and wear Spock ears' or 'women with a fetish for gay male sex because they can't cope with real sex themselves' I cherish whatever publicity we can get that has a sense of reality to it.
And there is another aspect of Torchwood fandom, its popularity with the male gay crowd. For reasons both similar and different to its popularity with women, some of which are political. And quite right, too.
I don't mean to imply with any of these comments that straight males don't like Torchwood, just that there are good reasons for it to appeal to other sets of fans.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 07:41 pm (UTC)It's not the "to women" part that bothers me so much as the "catering" part. "Catering" implies throwing a shred to the underfed underdogs. I don't see Torchwood doing that.
To me, Torchwood looks like the natural nest step in the evolution of the sci-fi action series. Since that step was blocked from happening in Hollywood, it happened in Britain instead. And they have both reaped the rewards and garnered the criticism that taking that next step engendered.
Of course, as a gay-friendly woman, I see things differently from other people. But if shows like this had been around 12 years earlier, I probably wouldn't have unplugged my TV.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 09:45 pm (UTC)Good heavens no, and thank goodness for that. Torchwood is what it is and it isn't catering, or pandering, or whatever suspect verb someone might want to pull out of a hat. It's entertaining, that's what it's doing.
Torchwood looks like the natural next step in the evolution of the sci-fi action series.
A step that should have been taken a while back, I'd say. But better late than never.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 07:58 pm (UTC)I've been reading some reactions by Hollywood artists to Torchwood. They all come down to, "This is what we would love to do if we could get away with it." These were all men BTW, men who felt constrained to do work that was less creative. So I have to wonder if the true dichotomy isn't male/female or gay friendly/gay hostile, but creative/noncreative.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 09:43 pm (UTC)As a total outsider and one who can only guess what it's like to be in that culture and subject to its pressures, I can't help thinking, "What's stopping them?" Attitudes of producers? Perceived public reaction? I don't get it. If it's what they want to do, if it's what the viewers want, why not just do it? Do they think it won't sell? Surely all they need is to look at the ratings, and see that they are wrong.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-10-31 10:29 pm (UTC)Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-02 12:35 pm (UTC)How interesting! Do you know what happened? Did they do it?
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-02 05:21 pm (UTC)Still, the intended scene was funny. They have an actor playing David, a scrawny support-staff guy whose last role before this was on BSG playing -- David, a scrawny support-staff guy. He's got the hots for the team's bisexual female security officer who lives at their underground base. (Her bisexuality was mentioned in the pilot but they've had to downplay it in the series.) He shows up at their costume party dressed as Captain Jack. Something like this happens:
"Hey, you're the gay guy from the Torchwood series, Captain Jack."
"He's not gay, he's bisexual!"
"You should have come as David off BSG."
"No way, man! I don't look anything like him. Have you even seen that show?"
Well it cracked both us up, and we haven't seen BSG.
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-02 05:45 pm (UTC)Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-06 05:37 am (UTC)Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-06 08:18 am (UTC)I think I may have to start watching that show now, darn it!
Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-06 12:07 pm (UTC)Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-06 04:36 pm (UTC)Re: Hey, that's my line!
Date: 2008-11-07 12:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-30 11:17 pm (UTC)I find this interesting because it actually tied in perfectly with what I saw in Owen's personality right from the start of s1. For me, he'd clearly had some sort of tragedy in his past that he was still reacting to (and against) strongly; after the big blow-up at the end of s1 and Jack's forgiveness, he seemed to finally settle somewhat and try to move on, only to have the rug pulled out from under him again when he suddenly found himself as zombie!boy. :) The bits we saw in "Adam" tied in nicely as well.
So, I actually found Owen quite consistent in his character arc and "Fragments" completed the jigsaw, but from other comments here, it looks like others got a very different sense of the character. :) Oh well, I'm happy at least!
no subject
Date: 2008-10-31 04:15 am (UTC)So how does Megan fit into his continuity, do you think?
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Date: 2008-10-31 11:15 am (UTC)For this, I'd only count what's on the screen as canon. And on the screen, we see Owen as a very reactive and nihilistic character who finally cracks and then starts a recovery process. It's only then that we start to get the snippets of his past - the emotionally-abusive mother, the tragedy with Katie that brings him to Jack's notice. Within screen canon, Megan (and no doubt others) simply don't exist - they were just narrative conveniences for the authors.
It's up to the viewer/reader/fanfic writer to choose how much they want to incorporate into their worldview, I guess, but tie-in books are pretty low down on the scale for me. I'd actually rate the website content above the books for canonicity as that is at least written around the episodes. So, sorry if you can't make it fit, but screen!Owen is nicely consistent for at least some of us out here! :)
no subject
Date: 2008-10-31 12:54 pm (UTC)That simplifies things a lot. It makes things fit.
I like to incorporate the books into my personal cannon, partly becuase I like the books (even when they play fast and loose with characters).
And dammit, I liked the Megan plot. Don't really want to give it up. I also kind of like the idea of Owen as an obsterperous teen, though I was delighted when, in "Fragments", we learned that Ianto has an arrest in his past and Owen doesn't.
no subject
Date: 2008-10-31 01:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-10-31 02:51 pm (UTC)The books often seem to assume they have no lives; I loved Everyone Says Hello but I was appalled that in all the chaos Gwen never once gave a though to Rhys, which she almost certainly would in the TV show, at least to learn whether he was safe from the alien device, and maybe to tell him to get out of town. Even just a sentence or two to mention she was worrying about him would have made me feel better about it.
But really, now I think of it, what's screwing me up is not so much book canon as my own assumptions and preferences and imagined backstory. I wanted Owen to have been a wastrel teen who made good after he joined Torchwood; I didn't want to abandon that interpretation because I liked it. If I do abandon it, and TV canon makes it possible to do so, things fit.
So I may think it's a cheap example of "we got a better idea", but I still like parts of it. It makes Owen still less of what I want him to be, but I can work with it. Or try to work with it.
Still mulling....