Doctor Who: a question about Journey's End...

[fajrdrako]

Something in the plot of 'Journey's End' I didn't understand. At the end, Rose and the human Doctor are in Bad Wolf Bay being banished going back through the threshold between universes as the universes are separating and the gates are closing. The human Doctor went because Rose was going, right?

Why did Rose have to go back? She wasn't originally from that universe, but this one. Now that she'd got back through the impenetratable barrier, couldn't she just stay?

Comments

[neadods.livejournal.com]

She could. But it looked like her mother would come with her, abandoning Pete and the baby back in the other 'verse. So the easiest thing to do is shove them all back there and leave the family intact.

The darker theory I've heard is that the Doctor didn't know what to do with the clone or an obsessed Rose, and shoved them both where he didn't have to think about them.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I can see the family sticking together, though I'm not sure why Jackie would chose Rose instead of Pete and Tony. Mickey, who was life family, chose to leave.

I can see that it was convenient for the Doctor to have them both leave; and it isn't necessarily dark, either. The Doctor has always been protective of Rose, and knows his lifestyle is dangerous for her - he might well feel that she is safer and better off in the other universe, with a version of himself to love her and give her a good life, and her family around her. It's like... getting Rose vicariously.

Moreover, after the accusations of Davros and the situation he has just been through, I think the Doctor is feeling full of self-blame and quite possibly feels he doesn't deserve Rose. That he would only harm her morally even if she survived physically.

[boji.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking a lot about the arc this season - as I'm writing review/meta - and what comes to mind is that for the Doctor survives (of his family and friendships) across time space and eternity is his memories of them. What is precious to him is memory & consciousness. Not a corporeal, linear existence.

Which is why he saves River Song in Cal's dreamworld. And why the tragedy of Donna's fate is as great as it is.

After all it's the memory of Rose that haunts and once he's had the initial joy of seeing her again she seems to step off that pedestal and take her place among the other children of time - to use Davros' words.

We've had at least two 'dreamworld's this series (Cal's and Donna's in Turn Left and he's been dismissive of parallel universes from the moment he first visited one with Rose, so I'm left thinking that his main universe is the one that 'counts' in some indefinable way and the rest are as intangible to him as CAL's database world.

The Doctor gives Rose, what he gives River a fairy tale ending, although the younger woman has her prince and the elder her family. It's what Donna almost had and sacrificed - twice. It's what the Doctor runs from, and really it's what I think he doesn't want. His line of not doing domestic isn't something that I attribute to Nine and PTSD from the timewar.

I think that Rose is obsessed with the Doctor romantically - yes - but although he loves her deeply I don't think that's a romantic love. They can stand on as many beaches as they wish I still don't get that vibe. And, as he obviously isn't human - and is outright revolted at the idea of being human - he evidently doesn't see how his love is misread until it's too late.

Clone!Ten? Well, he's an aberration who wasn't supposed to exist and, having two selves in one universe could easily cause problems, so yes it's easier to park him elsewhere. I also think that the idea of traveling with, or in anyway watching his mirror self age and then die would drive the Doctor literally insane. So, I think his dropping off of himself is as telling as leaving Rose back in her new-found reality.

What jarred for me is that he wasn't furious when she admitted building a dimension canon and trying to jump from parallel world to parallel world. It occurred to me that his joy that she was so clever - and daring - was a tad out of a character. I think that the timelord aspect of the Doctor would have to be very uncomfortable with anyone ripping holes in space and time to get to him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

as I'm writing review/meta

Excellent. I look forward to that. I truly enjoy your meta.

What is precious to him is memory & consciousness. Not a corporeal, linear existence.

Because he doesn't have a linear existence? Or because he never fully shares his linear existence?

Which is why he saves River Song in Cal's dreamworld. And why the tragedy of Donna's fate is as great as it is.

Makes sense, of a sort. It's a coherent picture, if a skewed one.

After all it's the memory of Rose that haunts and once he's had the initial joy of seeing her again she seems to step off that pedestal and take her place among the other children of time - to use Davros' words.

And, also to use Davros' word, among the Doctor's weapons. Leading me to speculate that the Doctor feels he has a contaminating or corruptive influence on those who love him, further leading to his alienation, and to keeping those who love him not only at arm's length but far away in time and space. Sometimes banished to different universes (like Rose) or different times (like Jack). Back in 'Rose', Rose was an innocent in many ways. She isn't any longer.

his main universe is the one that 'counts' in some indefinable way and the rest are as intangible to him as CAL's database world.

Yes, as if it's more his reality than the others.

His line of not doing domestic isn't something that I attribute to Nine and PTSD from the timewar.

I think it has many factors. The 'running' theme goes way back.

I think that the timelord aspect of the Doctor would have to be very uncomfortable with anyone ripping holes in space and time to get to him.

Given what we know of his reactions, this seems to me as provocative and reckless an act on Rose's part as saving her father in "Father's Day" which infuriated him for both its carelessness and its selfishness. I think in this case he was more casual about the effects because the Daleks were destroying all the universes, and Rose's actions helped to prevent that; and because it was reparied in the end; and because it's a different kettle of fish when the focus of her reckless feelings is himself, not her father.

It seems to me that he wanted to see her again because, in doing so, he was able to break the emotional tie he had with her. I'm not sure how or why but that's how I'd interpret what happened.

Thanks for the interesting comments. I fear I'm too tired to do justice to them now, but you've given me more things to think about.

[fruitbat813.livejournal.com]

Her mother is there, her father (in a sense), her little brother, she does have a life there working for Torchwood and she´s officially dead in our world. She probaböy assumed she could stay in the TARDIS but since the Doctor wasn´t going to let her and given the choice, I guess she´d probably pick the parallel world as a permanent home. Strictly speaking, I don´t think she had to stay there but it´s simply where the Doctor dropped her off in the end along with her mother so that was that.

Basically, I guess you could say the Doctor kind of tricked her because I don´t think he wants to be able to go back and visit. He was planning to leave the human Doctor with Rose and seeing the two of them together is just way too painful. This way, all temptation for him is removed. With Rose out of reach the door on that chapter of his life is now forever closed.

That´s my take on it anyway.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

She probaböy assumed she could stay in the TARDIS but since the Doctor wasn´t going to let her and given the choice, I guess she´d probably pick the parallel world as a permanent home.

Yes. I think a lot of his distress over what had happened to her was that she was unhappy with what had happened - he had left her in tears. Twice. This way, she has a good chance at happiness - maybe not the happiness she wanted, but something worthwhile.

I guess you could say the Doctor kind of tricked her because I don´t think he wants to be able to go back and visit.

Good point. This isn't just closure, but finality. And he is a Trickster God.

With Rose out of reach the door on that chapter of his life is now forever closed.

This gives me some inchoate thoughts about his relationship with River Song. About which we know so little.