fajrdrako: ([Buffy])
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Buffy 3x11 - Gingerbread

~ ~ ~

The episode starts when Joan walks in on Buffy's vampire patrol one dark night. I didn't like this for a number of reasons - another moment that makes Joyce look a bit of an idiot, or at least, a mother-stereotype gone wrong.

But that should have warned me that this was another fairy-tale episode which, on the whole, is the thing Joss Whedon does worst.

  1. Despite my distaste for the situation, I liked it that Joyce recognized Mr. Saunderson from the bank, and shouted, "Good, honey! Kill him!"

  2. But Joyce doesn't come off too well in any of this episode, does she? Ignoring Buffy's expertise, disregarding her feelings, falling prey to evil magic, and generally failing to impress me.

  3. Despite all that, this isn't what bothered me most about the episode. I thought it was glaringly obvious from the first scene after the murdered children were discovered, that they had no names or identities, and that this was - to say the least - highly suspicious. That no one questioned this immediately broke my suspension of disbelief at the outset.

    So if Hansel and Gretel could control minds so completely, why'd they bother with the whole killing kids charade? A game? Something just for thrills? Because if they'd done it over and over - why not just take over the town and eat people?

    Usually I rather like the magic in Buffy, but this time I just couldn't make enough sense of it - in terms of characterization.

  4. Nor did I understand why murdering two children was a crime so much worse than others seen in Sunnydale. Are we to believe that vampires don't eat children? We know that's not true.

  5. I liked it when Joyce suggested, in front of Willow, that the killer might be "A cult. Like witches."

  6. I liked Willow's conversation with her mother about her hair. No wonder Willow has so much personal freedom.

  7. Joyce might, however, have a career in front of her as a demagogue.

  8. Xander tries to plead innocence in the matter of making out with Willow, and Buffy is not impressed: "You *are* guilty. You got illicitsmoochies , gonna have to pay the price." Go, Buffy! I've much less trouble with what Willow and Xander did than I have with his shrugging off of responsibility. This doesn't give Cordelia any excuse to be so bitchy, of course, but then - she tends to be that way. I am disappointed in Cordelia.

  9. Snyder: "This is a glorious day for principals everywhere. No pathetic whining about students' rights. Just a long row of lockers and a man with a key." Why do I get such a kick out of Snyder's nastiness, and just get annoyed by Cordelia's now?

  10. Xander reaches a low point:
    Willow: I have stuff in my locker. Henbane, hellebore, mandrake root.
    Xander: Excuse me. Playboys. Can we turn the sympathy this way?
    How stupid is he? Why does he think they'd care about his Playboys?

  11. Another good Snyder line: "I love the smell of desperate librarian in the morning."

  12. I like Angel's line: "People are talking. People are even talking to *me*." I often wonder about his lifestyle. Presumably he stays in his crypt all day, or his apartment. But at night/ Does he just patrol Sunnydale for vampires and evildoers? Does he stalk Buffy? Does he read? There are hints that he does. Does he watch TV, like Faith? There are hints that he doesn't. I got the impression in the beginning of series 1 that he tracks vampires down, uses detective skills, rather like in Angel only without the part about people coming to him for help.

  13. I like the conversation Angel and Buffy have about the dyke and the dam. I like the way it emphasizes the differences in their relative ages and sophistication. Angel is not mature, but he's lived long enough to learn things.

  14. Angel even mentions the parents of the dead kids to Buffy. Except they don't have parents and no one has even noticed. I don't understand that. Are Buffy and Angel under the spell, too? And if they are, or were, what made it possible for them to throw off the spell when no one else could? Usually this kind of thing doesn't bother me, but it's all too thin here, there's no substance to hold the plot together.

  15. So they're going to burn Willow. I liked this plot better in Firefly.

  16. Good Cordelia line to Giles: "How many times have you been knocked out, anyway? I swear, one of these times, you're gonna wake up in a coma." Didn't like his response, though. But her conclusion was wonderful: "Now, let's be clear. The brain damage happened *before* I hit you."

  17. Good Xander line: "Why should you guys have all the fun? We wanna be part of the hate."

  18. Loved Buffy's line: "You will all be turned into vermin. And some of you will be fish! Yeah, you in the back will be fish!"

  19. Another great Buffy line: "Mom, dead people are talking to you. Do the math!" (Not that Buffy hasn't had dead people talking to her, some of them worth listening to....)

  20. For some reason the best interactions in this episode are between Giles and Cordelia. "God, you really were the little youthful offender, weren't you?" I don't think Giles is cringing, though. I don't think he's even ashamed. He has regrets - we've seen some of them - but not about that.

  21. I thought Hansel and Gretel were attractive and I liked them as villains until they morphed into a single monster. Any respect I had for the story evaporated then. Have I made it clear that I mostly don't like demons? and this is the dimmest, dumbest demon of them all?

  22. Good Willow line, about her mother: "She remembered the part where I said I was dating a musician."

  23. So this is where Amy turned into a rat. I'd totally forgotten the circumstances.

  24. So they buy Amy a wheel. Those things are cool. My budgies love them.



Date: 2008-06-25 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparklebutch.livejournal.com
why'd they bother

I think they fed on the love, the caring, or something. Or the fear and terror and persecution of people hunting other people. There was something I vaguely remember there about the emotion being important.

a crime so much worse

Again I think that the emotion inspired had something to do with the thing itself.

(To be honest, I'm just happy someone is saying "witch hunting is a bad thing", considering how many people don't, note my latest post on ij)


"I love the smell of desperate librarian in the morning."

And taken out of context, what a GOOD line for a fic...


I thought Hansel and Gretel were attractive and I liked them as villains until they morphed into a single monster.

That just proves my point about the demon craving love, caring, sympathy. People love little children, worry about them; they don't care about big ugly monster.

Date: 2008-06-25 02:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I think they fed on the love, the caring, or something.

The horror and the hysteria, perhaps? Centred on them? That makes sense.

the fear and terror and persecution of people hunting other people

That makes sense, and they clearly wanted that.

I'm just happy someone is saying "witch hunting is a bad thing", considering how many people don't, note my latest post on ij)

Yeah. I was horrified by the book-burning, too.

"I love the smell of desperate librarian in the morning."

And taken out of context, what a GOOD line for a fic...


I love it. Note to self: use it.


Date: 2008-06-25 02:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rustydog.livejournal.com
I think Joyce comes off as kind of a stooge in situations like this (where everybody knows the truth except her) because that's the perspective the story/show is being told from: a teenager's. A lot of teenagers do think their parents have no clue about how things "really are" and about their lives, and Joss has taken this and made it a literal part of the show, with Joyce, like most of the adults in the town, literally not having a clue about the monsters. As an allegory I guess it's fairly heavy, but that's kind of the style of the show, monsters = ordinary teen problems. I enjoy that simple kind of allegorical storytelling sometimes, but I can see how it could get irritating, too. Especially if you sympathize with Joyce. (Which I do now that I'm older!)

I loved the scenes with Willow and her mom - they're the main thing I think of when I think of this episode. Hee.

Date: 2008-06-25 02:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I think Joyce comes off as kind of a stooge in situations like this (where everybody knows the truth except her) because that's the perspective the story/show is being told from: a teenager's.

Yes. Many of the things I don't like about the show can be attributed to that. I'm thankful they're past the high school stage; but when others defend stupid actions on the part of the protagonists by saying "they're very young" I find myself thinking: "So why am I watching a show about kids, anyway?"

The answer of course is: Because it's well written, and because I do like so many things about it.

And I wouldn't want to be ageist!

If I had watched this as a teen, I think I would have been blissfully in love with it. (Instead of the shows I was actually blissfully in love with at the time.)

Date: 2008-06-27 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rustydog.livejournal.com
I have begun to wonder how I would respond to this show if I started watching it now, instead of at the time I did. (I wasn't a teenager, but close enough that I didn't feel anything close to "fully-formed." Not that I am now, mind you, but I do feel like an adult in a lot of ways, finally. *g*)

Date: 2008-06-27 08:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I figure I'll never be fully-formed or entirely adult (heaven forbid!), but at the same time - there are interests and attitudes you have when older that you don't have when young. Buffy focusses rather closely on the attitudes of its young protagonists. That's okay - there are plenty of shows about adults.

But sometimes I get impatient with the immaturity of some of the situations.

Date: 2008-06-28 11:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rustydog.livejournal.com
I was glad the show ran seven seasons - it's interesting to see the kids having to handle more mature situations eventually. There's only so far I'm inherently interested in the "school dance" (or whatever) anymore - interested because it affects the characters I care about, but not because I actually still find a homecoming dance personally compelling. :)

Date: 2008-06-25 03:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] teaphile.livejournal.com
Why do I get such a kick out of Snyder's nastiness, and just get annoyed by Cordelia's now?

Because he luxuriates in it, whereas Cordelia is merely defensive?

Date: 2008-06-25 11:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Yes, that's probably the difference.

Besides... I wanted Cordelia to be a friend to the other protagonists, so it hurts more to see her attack them. I always liked Snyder as a gadfly and antagonist.

Date: 2008-06-25 11:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] teaphile.livejournal.com
Yes, but I do like the vulnerability it gives her. She's lost everything that has always made her Cordelia Chase, and that's how it's manifesting, as anger rather than more obvious self-pity.

Date: 2008-06-25 12:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
I'm not sure whether self-pity is my least favourite character trait a person can have, or crabbiness. I see both in her!

Cordelia is not a coward, though, and that's worst of all.

Date: 2008-06-25 07:49 pm (UTC)
gillo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] gillo
But Joyce doesn't come off too well in any of this episode, does she? Ignoring Buffy's expertise, disregarding her feelings, falling prey to evil magic, and generally failing to impress me.


Joyce sees being a Slayer as a perversion - her reaction to it mirrors that of many parents to unorthodox choices made by their children - in our world it might be about sexuality, appearance, choice of friends, career path - in Sunnydale it is the occult. She's under the influence of the demon, yes, but that sort of parental campaign to "rescue" a child from a cult, or lifestyle, is hardly unheard-of. Clunky metaphor, possibly, but it does explore inappropriate parental responses quite well.

Nor did I understand why murdering two children was a crime so much worse than others seen in Sunnydale. Are we to believe that vampires don't eat children? We know that's not true.


The death of a child is intrinsically worse, and allows the sort of emotional response the demon was able to feed on and amplify.

I liked Willow's conversation with her mother about her hair. No wonder Willow has so much personal freedom.


Willow and Xander both have inadequate parents, in very different ways.

Another good Snyder line: "I love the smell of desperate librarian in the morning."


Nice "Apocalypse Now" reference. There will be another, eventually.

Snyder's sheer glee in his petty vindictiveness is superb. The actor is excellent, I feel.

Presumably he stays in his crypt all day, or his apartment. But at night/ Does he just patrol Sunnydale for vampires and evildoers? Does he stalk Buffy? Does he read? There are hints that he does. Does he watch TV, like Faith? There are hints that he doesn't. I got the impression in the beginning of series 1 that he tracks vampires down, uses detective skills, rather like in Angel only without the part about people coming to him for help.


I think he mostly works on perfecting his brooding skills.

Another great Buffy line: "Mom, dead people are talking to you. Do the math!" (Not that Buffy hasn't had dead people talking to her, some of them worth listening to....)


Hell, she's had sex with dead people...

So this is where Amy turned into a rat. I'd totally forgotten the circumstances.


Amy's ratness is a recurring issue for some while.

So they buy Amy a wheel. Those things are cool. My budgies love them.


When she's finally restored, she does express something of an aversion to them.

Date: 2008-06-26 12:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
Clunky metaphor, possibly, but it does explore inappropriate parental responses quite well.

I can't argue with any of that, but I don't like it and I would like to see Joyce do better.

Nice "Apocalypse Now" reference. There will be another, eventually.

Mmm?

Hell, she's had sex with dead people...

Maybe not quite a mother's worst nightmare, but somewhere right up there.

When she's finally restored, she does express something of an aversion to them.

Where else is a poor rat supposed to run?

Date: 2008-06-26 03:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparklebutch.livejournal.com
Where else is a poor rat supposed to run?

In the free and wild.




I think you need to restate your spoiler policy. Somewhere visible.

Date: 2008-06-26 03:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fajrdrako.livejournal.com
In the free and wild.

I tend to assume that Willow doesn't keep Amy locked up, but Amy sees the value of having a home-cage and regular feeding.

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