Battlestar Galactica: Sine Qua Non...

[fajrdrako]

What is the title of this episode referring to?

This is maybe the first episode of Battlestar Galactica that I really didn't much like, except that Lee Adama was beautiful. The characters I have loved in this show just aren't themselves any more, except perhaps for Lee. It was no joy to see Boomer as an assassin, or Lumpkin as delusional, or Starbuck as sidelined, or Tigh and Adama fighting, and many of the characters I have liked just not there.

What happened to the phenomenal oomph that Starbuck and Lumpkin (for example) used to have?

I don't even understand the theme of Lee becoming President, though it was obvious that he was the perfect choice long before it came to it. (Ignoring the thousands of people in the fleet that we don't know.) I thought the point was to make it all properly democratic because Zarek would never be acceptable to the military (i.e., Adama) as President. But Adama has resigned and taken off, and we went straight from Lee saying "President? No way!" to being sworn into office. Wasn't there - an election? Procedure? Anything? The willingness is all?

Normally, even in the less interesting episodes, I have my love and respect for Adama to keep me going. But that didn't work here.

Comments

[dewline.livejournal.com]

Bill Adama's decision here has been getting foreshadowed for a good while, I thought. Lampkin's invocation of "Sine qua non" crystallized what those arguments between Adama and Roslin from "He That Believeth..."(which kicked off this season) were leading up to, if memory serves me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right, none of this was out of the blue. But I still don't like it - and don't like the way it was set up.

On the plus side, I like Roslin now and didn't used to. But she wasn't in this episode.

The meaning of the title...

[dewline.livejournal.com]

...is explained by Lampkin in that conversation between Bill Adama and Romo Lampkin: everyone on all sides of this particular fight has something that they cannot afford to lose; if they do lose it, they'd consider it grounds to give up and die. For Bill Adama, it's Laura Roslin. For Lampkin, it almost ended up being that cat and the pre-Fall life and family Lance represented. For Lee, civil society in general.

Re: The meaning of the title...

[trialia]

*nod* Roughly what I thought after watching it, though I got the Bill/Laura reference before I ever saw the thing...

Re: The meaning of the title...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That all makes sense but... Maybe I wish they'd focussed more on one character and built up the emotional stakes some more. Lumpkin and his cat dead just seemed silly to me - along the lines of dead parrots on Monty Python. And the Roslin/Adama relationship is one of my least favourites on the show, so that didn't impress me either.

Lee and civil society? That, I like. But it isn't very personal or powerful, not like him fighting in the ring with Kara or bringing the Pegasus to help New Caprica.

[trialia]

The first time I heard this episode title, I knew there would be major Roslin/Adama 'ship in it. "Sine qua non" = "without which, nothing" and the two of them have become so integral to each other by this time, from where I'm watching, that it had to have something to do with that.

Honestly, I can't comprehend dislike of this episode. I can understand why someone could be neutral about it... but given how much I adored it, dislike is really not something I understand in this case. I think because for once, I am very much biased toward it. One thing I really didn't get was all the people complaining about Laura not being physically present - the woman was all OVER this episode, whether present in person or not. There wasn't really any missing that, or so I had thought...

You should look at Bear McCreary's post about this ep; it's fascinating.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it had to have something to do with that.

And so it was, at least partly. Or perhaps: without a leader, the fleet couldn't survive?

I'm glad you liked it! It's just... my favourite characters have been relegated to minor roles and I miss their former relationships. I am coming to like Roslin (though she wasn't in it) but I want to see more fire in Adama and more wildness in Kara.

I don't see how Roslin was all over it - could you explain? I thought that she was pretty much forgotten by everyone but us and Adama!

You should look at Bear McCreary's post about this ep

Where is it?

[trialia]

Yep. Well, the fleet has a leader, or two, just not the leaders it did have. I think they'll get on okay so long as Saul and Lee can coordinate well enough, as far as that's concerned. I'm just wondering whether this may mean that Laura's no longer the dying leader, but we'll see, I guess.

Ah, well. I fell in love with the character of Laura Roslin right from the mini-series, so as I say, I am a little biased that way. And I could see the fire in Adama; I thought it was just concentrated, focused determination. A fire that burns steadily without going out instead of flaring and dying. I liked that.

Really? The score had traces of 'Roslin and Adama' in repetition almost throughout, and I didn't overlook that - I love the piece even by itself. What I saw was that several of the people who talked to Bill about the situation, officially or otherwise, knew that he wasn't giving up, that he wouldn't admit she was dead, and knew why whether he'd admit to it or not. Saul knew: they fought over their attitudes to the separate situations with Caprica and Laura. Lampkin knew there was something, I'm sure - I saw him trying to lead Bill into admitting it, but he wasn't going to, not to him. Lee knew but didn't realise how much... The appointment of a new interim President shows they're treating it as if she is definitely coming back, because even the Quorum and Tom Zarek know that Adama wouldn't give her up without looking, whether or not they'd found a burnt-out basestar where she should have been. This episode really was, from my point of view, all about the interpersonal relationships in the fleet - not only about Roslin and Adama, but that did make a large part of it - and I think that's why I loved it so much, because that's how I write. Everyone relates or doesn't relate to other people in some way, and that's how I define my view of people in the real world.. does that make sense?

http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/ :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think they'll get on okay so long as Saul and Lee can coordinate well enough

I don't yet have much of a feel for the relationship between Saul and Lee; this is something to look forward to. I used to love the relationship between Kara and Saul, when they interacted a lot and were at loggerheads.

I'm just wondering whether this may mean that Laura's no longer the dying leader

Good point! Either Lee or Tigh could be in that role. Or someone else.

I fell in love with the character of Laura Roslin right from the mini-series, so as I say, I am a little biased that way.

I took against her (and didn't much like her politics!) and it has taken me all this time to come to like her. Mostly I disliked her visions and the religoius side of her character - that's the thing I least like about the show. That, and the search for Earth, which strikes me as ... irrelevant, but is so important to her. I gather it's a holdover from the original YV show? I liked it so much more in the E.C. Tubb novels!

The score had traces of 'Roslin and Adama' in repetition almost throughout

Ah - I didn't notice. I'm not very musical. But I love the music in this show, and the way they use it. I have to remind myself to pay attention to it before I notice it, though - unless someone mentions it to me - and I guess I forgot last night.

the people who talked to Bill about the situation, officially or otherwise, knew that he wasn't giving up, that he wouldn't admit she was dead

Yes, but that was about him, not about her. Which I suppose is a variation of the same thing, from a different viewpoint.

all about the interpersonal relationships in the fleet - not only about Roslin and Adama, but that did make a large part of it - and I think that's why I loved it so much, because that's how I write.

I do that too. It's just that the relationships that interest me weren't there - Lee/Kara or Helo/Boomer, in terms of romance, or various others in terms of non-romance.

Thanks for the link! I will have a look.

[trialia]

I don't yet have much of a feel for the relationship between Saul and Lee; this is something to look forward to.
I'm looking forward to that, too. Normally when the two of them have interacted Bill has been something of a buffer, whether present or not, but now that he can't be-- I want to watch what happens.

Good point! Either Lee or Tigh could be in that role. Or someone else.
Exactly. It's going to be something to think about over hiatus, I think.

took against her (and didn't much like her politics!) and it has taken me all this time to come to like her. Mostly I disliked her visions and the religious side of her character - that's the thing I least like about the show.
She reminds me of my mother in certain aspects of her personality, and I'd just lost her before the mini-series aired, so that warmed me to her from the outset, I think. As for the religion-- I am Unitarian, so I'm pretty open-minded as far as that goes, and from an objective point of view I am fascinated by the way that the BSG writers set monotheism and polytheism as opposite sides of the same coin but with the dominance set as the opposite angle to what it is in our world.

That, and the search for Earth, which strikes me as ... irrelevant, but is so important to her.
What else did she have to live for, in the beginning? That she could see?

I gather it's a holdover from the original YV show? I liked it so much more in the E.C. Tubb novels!
Not a clue, I've never seen either.

Ah - I didn't notice. I'm not very musical. But I love the music in this show, and the way they use it. I have to remind myself to pay attention to it before I notice it, though - unless someone mentions it to me - and I guess I forgot last night.
Fair enough! I pay attention to the underscore of everything I watch because music is very important to me; I'm in a choir and though I struggle to actually read music, thinking about it helps me to express it better.

Yes, but that was about him, not about her. Which I suppose is a variation of the same thing, from a different viewpoint.
Exactly. It was about Bill and Laura, and they are so important to each other in canon by this time that that really could be described as the same thing if you look at it that way.

It's just that the relationships that interest me weren't there - Lee/Kara or Helo/Boomer, in terms of romance, or various others in terms of non-romance.
Whereas they pretty much all interest me, however much I rave about the Roslin/Adama 'ship. *G*

Enjoy!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Normally when the two of them have interacted Bill has been something of a buffer

Yes. I would expect that Lee and Saul, given their very different temperaments, wouldn't get along together well, though Lee is and was respectful of his authority. But at the same time, Lee would be well aware of Saul as his father's longtime friend and would respect him as such, maybe with a sort of "Uncle Saul" kind of attitude. And they both respect Adama's legacy. (If I may use the word with Adama still alive, merely absent.)

that warmed me to her from the outset, I think

My goodness, yes, that would make a difference.

I am fascinated by the way that the BSG writers set monotheism and polytheism as opposite sides of the same coin but with the dominance set as the opposite angle to what it is in our world.

I like it that they did that. I don't like it when it becomes part of the plot.

What else did she have to live for, in the beginning? That she could see?

The living survivors.

E.C. Tubb?

[dewline.livejournal.com]

When was that author connected to BSG? Space: 1999, I knew about.

Re: E.C. Tubb?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

E.C. Tubb had no connection to Battlestar Galactica that I know of. But he had a long series of novels (which I loved) about a hero-adventurer named Earl Dumarest who was wandering the planets looking for Earth, which was where he'd been born. He never found it.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Color me neutral to the ep.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Neutral is a good way to be!

The best thing about it was Lee's general gorgeousness. He hasn't looked that good in a long time. The worst thing for me was Kara - such a non-character this time.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

This is wild.

I'm still trying not to skip ahead, in the Season Three DVDs, to the episode where we find out the four are Cylons... and now this!

Ai. Thank you.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This is wild.

Which part? Any of it? All of it?

Yes. Wild!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Which part? Any of it? All of it?

Yup.

Imagine changing your characters so drastically. Think of other tv shows -- no real change, for the most part. (That could be part of why I liked ER so much: characters underwent real-life sorts of changes, and you never knew who would be next.) I am thrilled by all of it. The fact that it even exists is thrilling. And I am thrilling in the anticipation that someday I will watch these episodes. The anticipation may be as much fun as the event itself!

Kinda like thinking about sex, huh? With someone worth waiting for. Yup. Kinda just like that. All the energy is fun.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Think of other tv shows -- no real change, for the most part.

That may have been true in the past, but everything I'm watching now seems to have change in the main characters as part of the theme. Which is why I'm watching. I love it when that happens. Change in circumstances, in attitude, in the growth of the character - all these things.

And yes, the anticipation of change is great too.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Agreed, agreed. But I have to point out: you watch only the good shows. For the most part, tv is stocked with bland, mostly mindless crap that offers no thought-related engagement at all.

Then there are: Veronica Mars, Lost, Heroes, Battlestar Galactica, and all the other ones you watch that I've never even seen yet, but want to. Clearly: you have your grip on all the good stuff!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

For the most part, tv is stocked with bland, mostly mindless crap that offers no thought-related engagement at all.

Maybe, but the point is there is good TV. It happens to be all I watch - and I pay rather a lot for the privilege. But it's worth it.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I remember now that I already replied to this, back then. But still fun to get another look at that icon.

I'm up to the Algae Planet episode. I loved Dualla going to rescue Starbuck; Dee having to pilot the raptor, and making a beginner's mess of it, and Starbuck the practical soldier saying, "You're doing fine." That episode got INTENSE. For many reasons. I think that one was when Helo sent Athena back to the Resurrection Ship... ugh. And to think that Tahmoh Penikett had been hired as a day player, back in the pilot. Look at him now! The scene he had with Roslin and Adama was amazing. I know you don't care for Roslin (nor do I, much), but one has to admit: something about being in that scene multiplied everyone's acting focus.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

All the actors have certain scenes or episodes in which they truly shine. Some of them are that way most of the time - Olmos, for example. Others are better sometimes than others, depending on the writing and who they're acting with.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I was just noticing that, recently... where was... oh! Right. A couple weeks ago, I was at my dad's house doing some stuff for him, and later that night the movie The Lost World came on. The follow-up movie to Jurassic Park...? Well, I loved the first one; I loathed this one. Jeff Goldblum was the main character, and one of the interesting bits was that he had several children by several different women. One of the children showed up. A little girl with strongly African skin tone and facial features. I liked it at first sight -- made the Goldblum character out to be a totally non-mainstream person. However, there was not one wafting scent of chemistry between the adult actor and the child actor! They said their lines, they played their scenes, and I was amazed that I had no interest in them at all. It was sad. Actually, that entire movie had that problem. Only two or three interesting, well-acted characters in all of it. And the rest all got eaten by dinosaurs! Not for me, thank you.

Agreed about BG. It's a bad day when Adama's scenes don't move me, for instance. And a good one when Roslin's do!

Listening to the commentary on "Unfinished Business" -- alas, Ron Moore is very interested in both Tigh, and the Adama/Roslin relationship. Feh. Give me more Starbuck and Athena and Apollo and Helo!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

there was not one wafting scent of chemistry between the adult actor and the child actor! They said their lines, they played their scenes, and I was amazed that I had no interest in them at all.

Aww. That's so disappointing. Especially when the situation is so interesting.

It's a bad day when Adama's scenes don't move me, for instance. And a good one when Roslin's do!

I agree absolutely!

alas, Ron Moore is very interested in both Tigh, and the Adama/Roslin relationship. Feh. Give me more Starbuck and Athena and Apollo and Helo!

And I agree with that, too. Tigh has his interesting times but in the last season he has made no sense to me at all. This has, sadly, made me much less interested in the story. The premise may end up making a lot of sense, but I just don't get it and that has killed all the suspense for me, and a lot of my interest.

Helo will be in Dollhouse, did you know? The actor. Whose name I suddenly forgot. Yeah, Tahmoh Penikett. No wonder I have trouble remembering it, I can barely spell it. (Note to self: remember it for next time.)

As for Starbuck, Athena, Helo and Lee - yes! Can't get enough. More, please.

(Telling myself not to rant over certain characterizations in the current season.)

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

That without which not seems an awfully good reason as well to suspect that Laura might be the final cylon. If she is Adama's sine qua non, then what would he do if he found out that she was a cylon... Hard to believe he could reject her even at that point. At which point the reconciliation will start from the top down.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If she is Adama's sine qua non, then what would he do if he found out that she was a cylon... Hard to believe he could reject her even at that point.

I am reminded of the scene a few episodes back in which the Chief was considering telling Cally he was a Cylon and she reacted to violently he didn't tell her.

Strange for Adama if/when he discovers that both Roslin and Tigh are Cylons. But I agree with you: his love and respect for Roslin might be just the bridge to reconcile the Cylons and humans, especially if the discovery of Earth is part of it.