Buffy the Vampire Slayer (3x02) - Dead Man's Party

[fajrdrako]

Buffy (3x02) - Dead Man's Party

~ ~ ~

So Buffy is back home but life changed meanwhile, as it does.

This is the spooky mask episode, and even at the end, I was left wondering why Joyce would want such an ugly thing on her bedroom wall - it would give me nightmares. The cat was scary, too. This episode - more creepy than most! (Not really in a good way.)

I like it when Buffy dreams of Angel, though.

1. I notice this is by Marti Noxon, one of the producers, whom someone mentioned here recently. What's the scoop on Marti Noxon? Good writer or bad? I wasn't impressed with the plot here, though obviously many Buffy episodes have dorky plots but still manage to be exceptionally good television. (Good trick. Comes of good style and characters, of course.)
   
   
2. I love Buffy's comment on the mask: "It's angry at the room, Mom. It wants the room to suffer." Eeee! That frightened me right off.
   
   
3. Joyce is not very good at doing "normal". Under the circumstances.
   
   
4. I like Xander's appearance, where Buffy says, "Didn't anyone ever warn you about playing with pointy sticks? It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye."
   
   
5. Cordelia uses a code-name. Cute.
   
   
6. They're all so awkward with Buffy. Things aren't the same. Giles is the best. He's the only one realizing that it isn't easy for her to come back.
   
   
7. I like it that Buffy calls Snyder "his ulgliness".
   
   
8. Snyder always cracks me up but I particularly love his gleeful refusal to let Buffy come back to school: "I have not only the right, but also a nearly physical sensation of pleasure at the thought of keeping her out of school. I'd describe myself as tingly." Such a perv!
   
   
9. I also like the line, "she may live up to the not-a-murderer requirement for enrollment."
   
   
10. What are field hockey knees?
    
    
11. New adult characters like Pat appearing always make me feel suspicious.
    
    
12. The dead cat is creepy. The risen-from-the-dead cat is even creepier. And the glowy-eyed mask creepier still.
    
    
13. Joyce says, "Buffy, you made some bad choices. You just might have to live with some consequences." What choices does she mean? Being a slayer? Loving Angel? Running away? I get the impression here that Joyce really doesn't understand what's happening with Buffy at all.
    
    
14. "Hellmouth Petting Zoo." - That, I like.
    
    
15. Oz likes the undead/dead cat? Oz is strange.
    
    
16. Xander shows himself not only to have not much sensitivity or judgement, but to be downright mean:

    Xander: And what'll we talk about at a gathering anyway? 'So, Buffy, did you meet any nice pimps on your travels? And oh, by the by, thanks for ruining our lives for the past three months.'
    Willow: Xander . . .
    Xander: You know what I mean. She doesn't want to talk about it, we don't want to talk about it, so why don't we just shut up and dance?

    
    This seems particularly cruel when you consider his contribution to the circumstances that led to Buffy's running away.
    
    
17. I have a bit of a problem with the whole party idea. It might well be that Xander and Cordelia are rude/tactless enough to think they can set up a big party (with a band, yet) at someone else's house, but Willow usually has more tact, and the fact that Joyce would allow it - well, I find it all a little beyond the pale and contrived for the sake of plot. Which is not to say that I don't believe that people don't do things equally stupid - but for it to all go that far is a little much. Especially with these people. Willow might be getting in a dig of revenge, but I don't think she's that devious.
    
    
18. "Shindig" - heh. Shades of Firefly again. Guess Whedon likes the word.
    
    
19. Giles says, "Now things can get back to normal." So ironic I wonder if he's being sarcastic. But... I think not. Giles has his own standards of normality.
    
    
20. I like Buffy's line, "It seems like people I didn't even know missed me." And then someone's remark: "Heard it was for some chick that just got out of rehab."
    
    
21. So Buffy almost leaves again. And she and Willow discuss the situation. And Willow is wrapped up in her own problems - proving actually that she really does have no idea what Buffy went through. (Well, no, because Buffy hasn't told them.) But Willow's moment of self-pity seems unfair to me; she knows enough to know that what she's been experiencing isn't so bad. Getting used to having a boyfriend isn't much like getting used to having killed one's lover. All the worse when they accuse her of 'punishing' Joyce by leaving.
    
    
22. Joyce hasn't figured out that she can't just handle Buffy by issuing ultimatums? She doesn't learn, does she? (This all reminds me how awful it is to be a teenager.)
    
    
23. Joyce: "And I've had schnapps." Heh. Reminds me of Buffy's rude comment in "Becoming, part 2" that Joyce should just go on drinking.
    
    
24. Seems to me that in general, Buffy isn't the one who should be doing the apologizing. But she does.
    
    
25. And finally someone defends Buffy:

    Cordelia: Time out, Xander. Put yourself in Buffy's shoes for just a minute. Okay? I'm Buffy, freak of nature, right? Naturally I pick a freak for a boyfriend, and then he turns into Mr. Killing Spree, which is pretty much my fault--
    Buffy: Cordy! Get outta my shoes!

26. Wonderful timing on Willow's line: "Talking about it isn't helping. We might as well try some violence." Then the zombies attack. "I was being sarcastic!"
    
    
27. Zombies, zombies everywhere. Have I mentioned that I don't like zombie stores? Well, maybe Shaun of the Dead, but only because it's funny. Definitely not other zombie stories, including this and including the Marvel zombies.
    
    
28. So Pat becomes the Demon Mobani. Dangerous things, book clubs.
    
    
29. Giles puts a little pressure on Snyder to get Buffy back. Go, Giles! Wonderful.
    
    
30. So Willow really is pursuing her witchcraft training. Too bad she wasn't more up on the anti- zombie spells at the beginning of this episode. I'm just a little mad at Willow for being hard on Buffy.
    
    
31. So they insult each other. Cute.
    

Comments

rambly

[beccaelizabeth]

Xander shows himself not only to have not much sensitivity or judgement, but to be downright mean:

Xander: And what'll we talk about at a gathering anyway? 'So, Buffy, did you meet any nice pimps on your travels? And oh, by the by, thanks for ruining our lives for the past three months.'
Willow: Xander . . .
Xander: You know what I mean. She doesn't want to talk about it, we don't want to talk about it, so why don't we just shut up and dance?


This seems particularly cruel when you consider his contribution to the circumstances that led to Buffy's running away.

I haven't watched this one for a while, but just re-reading the 'thanks for ruining our lives' bit... I think Xander's reactions make sense if and only if one sees Buffy as having an actual duty, like... if she was their parent and she walked out and left them to cope on their own then that would be a Very Bad Thing even if she had a whole bunch of reasons for it. If slaying is a job, an extra thing she chooses to do, and the Hellmouth remains hellmouthy whether she's there or not and that's just the way the world is, Buffy's absence didn't ruin their lives. If Slaying is something one can reasonably expect her to do and her not-doing is a big minus point then her running away ruins their lives. Like, say a mum walked out on her kid because they were too ill and she couldn't cope. Understandable if you want to look from her point of view, but there's these strong social standards that say she should just deal, that not-dealing is a Bad Thing. So Buffy has things that make her walk on being a Slayer, looking after Sunnydale. Everyone reacts like this was a Bad Thing. Like her Slayer duties could be reasonably expected minimum standards.

Which is freaky weird. Her being away doesn't ruin anyone's life, it just makes them responsible for it without the Slayer. And seeing as they're all her age, if it's reasonable for her to do it, it's reasonable for them.

Except for the mystical powers thing. Great power, great responsibility... great condemnation if you try and choose a life that would be reasonable for anyone else yet doesn't use that power. Cause then the others are left trying to do a job they aren't suited for even when all added together. Slayers: strength of more than three, skill of many lifetimes, not so much replaceable by part timers. So if that life was too tough for a Slayer it's many times too tough for 3 not-Slayers. But they're doing it anyway, so there's just a teensy bit of resentment that she wasn't. Like she could do it so much easier it's no fair when she don't do it.

BtVS keeps being about 'women's work' and attitudes to women and caring and stuff. So sometimes showing the attitudes unreasonable be part of the point. She wasn't there looking after them... and was that okay?

Re: rambly

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

Except for the mystical powers thing. Great power, great responsibility... great condemnation if you try and choose a life that would be reasonable for anyone else yet doesn't use that power.

I think that's the crux of it exactly in terms of slayer-ness, but for me Xander and Willow's reactions have less to do with it sucking trying to play slayer themselves. I think they were really, genuinely hurt by having someone they thought of as a close friend, someone they'd literally faced death with, running off without word one to them. They were just left in the dark and abandoned because Buffy didn't want to talk about it. Not saying that isn't understandable. I wouldn't've wanted to talk about it or face anyone either. But they had no way of knowing what was happening, which had to be pretty scary and frustrating in and of itself.

Re: rambly

[beccaelizabeth]

*nods*

Re: rambly

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think Xander's reactions make sense if and only if one sees Buffy as having an actual duty, like... if she was their parent and she walked out and left them to cope on their own then that would be a Very Bad Thing

I interpreted that as... before he met Buffy, Xander was insecure and lonely, with only Willow to hang out with - the shy girl who didn't have other friends. Then he met Buffy, he fell in love with her, he learned about exciting and extraordinary things that most people don't learn about, he got to do his share of vampire-hunting in support of Buffy. And I think that helped him get self-confidence and personal strength. But he was still dependent on Buffy being at the centre of this new world he lived in.

So Buffy leaves, and he feels let down - but I can't help thinking that it's still the broken-hearted boy who loved Buffy and wanted her who is dictating his thinking - his anger is as much because she preferred Angel as because she left. Only now he has, the feels, a legitimate reason for anger, that he can express.

Her being away doesn't ruin anyone's life, it just makes them responsible for it without the Slayer.

Yes. Or it leaves them the option of taking whatever responsibility they wish. She is the one constrained to this by her duty as Slayer - they have the option of being there, or not. And there have been times when each and every one of them has not been there, for one reason or another.

But they're doing it anyway, so there's just a teensy bit of resentment that she wasn't. Like she could do it so much easier it's no fair when she don't do it.

People do that. It isn't really admirable, but it's understandable. Someone who always wanted to be a musician sees someone of incredibly musical talent who doesn't care and isn't using that talent - I've seen resentment as a result. And this situation has moral implications.

She wasn't there looking after them... and was that okay?

To my mind, it was okay, because even if she has an unshakeable destiny as Slayer, that does not involve also taking care of her friends, or living for their sake.

This is especially true at this point, where each has a boy- or girlfriend, and their lives seemed to be pretty stable.

Re: rambly

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

So Buffy leaves, and he feels let down - but I can't help thinking that it's still the broken-hearted boy who loved Buffy and wanted her who is dictating his thinking - his anger is as much because she preferred Angel as because she left. Only now he has, the feels, a legitimate reason for anger, that he can express.

I just think he has an unpleasant side.

Re: rambly

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I just think he has an unpleasant side.

So he does.

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

While I agree that Buffy has a right to be upset, I'm going to say that her friend do too. They've helped her through all this bizarre stuff that would've sent most people screaming for the hills... and she leaves town without a word to any of them. They have as much right to feel hurt and abandoned as she had right to be heartbroken over what happened with Angel. Still, was running away from home a particularly responsible way to handle it? Not so much. As far as how things did go down with Angel? Gonna have to say the blame is with him on that one. He's the one who knew about the curse and was thinking with the wrong head - which got them all into the whole scenario in the first place. heh After living a couple centuries, he's a big enough boy to shoulder some of the blame too. Basically? No one was faultless and everyone had a right to their own pain. It's part of what makes this episode so uncomfortable and one that I don't watch often despite really loving some of the one-liners and such in it.

So that's my rant on that :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

They've helped her through all this bizarre stuff that would've sent most people screaming for the hills... and she leaves town without a word to any of them.

Admittedly. She could at least have left a note saying "gotta go, bye". I wonder if they feared she had killed herself.... Because their reaction reminded me of the reaction I often see people show to suicides: anger because it hurt them, disregarding the inconceivable (and almost certainly unexplained) pain the person must have been in. Yes, it works both ways: lots of distress. But my sympathies are with Buffy because I think her friends were judging her harshly, because they were hurt by her departure.

hey have as much right to feel hurt and abandoned as she had right to be heartbroken over what happened with Angel.

Oh, yes, every right - just as I have a right not to like it!

After living a couple centuries, he's a big enough boy to shoulder some of the blame too.

Or maybe a lot of it. But again, in her excess of love, Buffy can't quite see it that way. She can't blame Angel for what she did to him - and I think she long since forgave Angel for what he did to her. And tried to do to her.

No one was faultless and everyone had a right to their own pain.

I agree, but I also think that Buffy's friends should have been stronger and kinder.

It's part of what makes this episode so uncomfortable and one that I don't watch often despite really loving some of the one-liners and such in it.

I don't know what I'll think when/if I come to watch it again. Interesting thought!

I enjoyed your comments. Thanks!

[star-momma.livejournal.com]

No, I think you've got a point. I understand the harshness, but I do think that at times it verged on the out of character. Overall, despite some cleverness, this is one of the weaker episodes of the show for me because it's odd and uncomfortable (which, admittedly, it probably SHOULD be) and just doesn't feel altogether right somehow.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I understand the harshness, but I do think that at times it verged on the out of character.

We see the same character behaving better at other points, for various reasons. And I have no problems with people acting consistently with their feelings, or inconsistently as their feelings change. I just... like to think of Buffy's friends as her support group, and at this point they're asking more of her than she is able to give.

this is one of the weaker episodes of the show for me because it's odd and uncomfortable (which, admittedly, it probably SHOULD be)

Yes, exactly. We've seen "Anne" with its own brand of awkward uncomfortableness, and we think things will be okay again when Buffy goes home. But things aren't 'okay' because everyone has feelings that are mixed up in the situation. And everyone has expectations of Buffy that she sometimes can, sometimes can't fulfill.

I'd like them to be always supportive, but life's not really like that, and no one is perfect.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

I love this episode. They do a fairly banal plot in a fun way and there's excellent Rupert scenes that highlight how that his Ripper side is fully incroporated in his character, although he doesn't seem to let it out much. I absolutely LOVE the scene in the car and the scene with Snyder at the end.

[I was left wondering why Joyce would want such an ugly thing on her bedroom wall]
To highlight that she has zero sensitivity and zero taste.

[They're all so awkward with Buffy. Things aren't the same. Giles is the best. He's the only one realizing that it isn't easy for her to come back.]

he's not the only one realizing. He's the only one sufficiently in control of his own reactions to be considerate to the other.

[New adult characters like Pat appearing always make me feel suspicious.]

The poor woman was an innocent victim. I wonder what anyone bothered to tell her family and contacts, if at all, after she vanished.


[But Willow's moment of self-pity seems unfair to me. .... Seems to me that in general, Buffy isn't the one who should be doing the apologizing. But she does.]

Go back to end of Becoming 2. things haven't changed much since then. They know the world didn't end, but they don't know what happened. They don't know she killed Angel. They don't even know that Angel's soul was restored. She didn't even update her watcher. All they know is she vanished, could have been dead - and they never heard from her again until this ep. She didn't even leave any of them a note like she left Joyce (which I'm sure did not include details of the night's battle). And all the fears and worries translate into anger and hurt when she returns so casually. It's the betrayal of trust (again) that's the issue here, I think. Yes they're all being self-centered in their hurt (except for Giles), but Buffy is no exception to that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

there's excellent Rupert scenes that highlight how that his Ripper side is fully incroporated in his character

I'm a sucker for any Giles scenes, of course, but there are modes in which I prefer him - the scenes that show him as more than a librarian/researcher, the scenes that show his commitment to his calling and his heroism, his caring for Buffy and his mixed feelings about his past.

she has zero sensitivity and zero taste.

Point.

And the glowing red eyes... I'm sure she loses a few aesthetic points for not noticing. One wonders what her shop is like, and whether Whedon is making a subtly acerbic critique of the California art scene.

He's the only one sufficiently in control of his own reactions to be considerate to the other.

True, and I love him for it.

They don't know she killed Angel.

I wondered how much they had guessed about that. From their point of view, I suppose Angel and Buffy both just disappear, and they might think the spell worked and they ran off together. Or they were both swallowed into hell with Acathla (albeit not the rest of the world). Or any variation of the theme.

I wonder what anyone bothered to tell her family and contacts, if at all, after she vanished.

yet another Sunnydale missing person.

[gillo]

I notice this is by Marti Noxon, one of the producers, whom someone mentioned here recently. What's the scoop on Marti Noxon? Good writer or bad? I wasn't impressed with the plot here, though obviously many Buffy episodes have dorky plots but still manage to be exceptionally good television. (Good trick. Comes of good style and characters, of course.)

Marti became one of the most trusted of the Mutant Enemy team and when Joss was working 36 hours a day with

Firefly, Angel

and

Buffy

airing simultaneously, Marti became

Buffy

showrunner. Some people have issues with what happened on her watch. I don't. Telling you more would be a humungous spoiler.

Joyce is not very good at doing "normal". Under the circumstances.

Not sure any mother would be. And what constitutes "normal" when your daughter is a Slayer?

I like Xander's appearance, where Buffy says, "Didn't anyone ever warn you about playing with pointy sticks? It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye."

Ouch. I'd forgotten that line was in this episode.

What are field hockey knees?

Presumably covered in scabs and scars? Or muddy and bruised? Less than attractive, anyway.

So Buffy almost leaves again. And she and Willow discuss the situation. And Willow is wrapped up in her own problems - proving actually that she really does have no idea what Buffy went through. (Well, no, because Buffy hasn't told them.) But Willow's moment of self-pity seems unfair to me; she knows enough to know that what she's been experiencing isn't so bad. Getting used to having a boyfriend isn't much like getting used to having killed one's lover. All the worse when they accuse her of 'punishing' Joyce by leaving.

They are all floundering in self-pity and acute embarrassment. They are seventeen and don't know how adults handle such things (Joyce and Giles demonstrating the "pretend it's not a problem mode - not so helpful) - and none of them is in full possession of the data. Like in real life.

Joyce says, "Buffy, you made some bad choices. You just might have to live with some consequences." What choices does she mean? Being a slayer? Loving Angel? Running away? I get the impression here that Joyce really doesn't understand what's happening with Buffy at all.

Well, no. Parents rarely do "get" what is so central to their children's lives.

Seems to me that in general, Buffy isn't the one who should be doing the apologizing. But she does.

Hmm. She bailed out on them without a word of explanation. She does have something to apologise for.

So Pat becomes the Demon Mobani. Dangerous things, book clubs.

Serves her right - I took against her from the start.

Giles puts a little pressure on Snyder to get Buffy back. Go, Giles! Wonderful.

When is he not?

So Willow really is pursuing her witchcraft training. Too bad she wasn't more up on the anti- zombie spells at the beginning of this episode. I'm just a little mad at Willow for being hard on Buffy.

Has anyone told her that her spell worked? Or said "thanks" for (from her POV) saving the world?

So they insult each other. Cute.

I love that bit. Real friends do that.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Has anyone told her that her spell worked? Or said "thanks" for (from her POV) saving the world?

As far as their all concerned, her spell didn't work, because if she had restored Angel's soul, Buffy and Angel would be back in town. As they never came back, they can only assume Angel remained Angelus and Buffy killed him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

And Buffy doesn't tell them anything different.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Some people have issues with what happened on her watch. I don't.

Thanks - this pretty much gives me an idea why people talk about her oddly sometimes. We'll see what I think.

They are all floundering in self-pity and acute embarrassment.... Like in real life.

Indeed.

[What are field hockey knees?] Presumably covered in scabs and scars? Or muddy and bruised? Less than attractive, anyway.

This reminds me of a reference in one of the Dunnett novels to "hockey legs" which I never really understood, either. Perhaps it means "muscular"?

She bailed out on them without a word of explanation. She does have something to apologise for.

It goes both ways, but she does say she's sorry.... And doesn't really know how to explain. I think they want the explanation more than the apology, but that's a lot to ask.

Has anyone told her that her spell worked?

As far as I know, no. Buffy isn't talking. Angel isn't around. Who else would know?

[marys-scribbles.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to butt in here and say Joyce does get better. I'm a season or so ahead of you in rewatching and I keep thinking I don't remember Joyce being so ... bad. It does make me cringe a bit wondering what sort of Mum I will be when mine get to be that age.

I'm here because Adam told me to link you to my 3.20 notes when you get there. So thought I'd lurk to keep up with your progress. Must say I'm enjoying your recaps though.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

wanted to butt in here and say Joyce does get better.

Good!

It does make me cringe a bit wondering what sort of Mum I will be when mine get to be that age.

No parent is perfect! And no parent is deficient in all the same ways. But it does seem sometimes, since she seems to be reasonably intelligent and well-meaning, that Joyce messes up an awful lot.

I'm here because Adam told me to link you to my 3.20 notes when you get there.

Oh - cool. Wonderful!

So thought I'd lurk to keep up with your progress.

Excellent! Welcome to my LJ! Pull up a seat, make yourself comfortable...

Must say I'm enjoying your recaps though.

Thank you - I'm glad. I'm sure in a lot of ways they seem totally clueless! But it's such fun to do.

[marys-scribbles.livejournal.com]

I'm here because Adam told me to link you to my 3.20 notes when you get there.

I meant 2.20 ... sorry.

I'm sure in a lot of ways they seem totally clueless!

But see, that's the fun. To see things with a fresh eye. I'm glad you're doing this because I wasn't so ... verbal with my reactions when Adam pimped to me. So thanks for doing this.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you're doing this because I wasn't so ... verbal with my reactions when Adam pimped to me. So thanks for doing this.

It's a bit of an effort and I'm not sure how long I can keep up - especially at the rate I'm going - but it's fun and rewarding, too. Sort of doubles the fun of watching, to talk about it like this.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

If my best friend disappeared after going into what I knew would be a violent fight with weapons, and then when she showed up again it turned out that she just *ran away*, after I'd spent three months wondering where the hell she was or if she were even alive, and then I found out she'd just left town and become a waitress without calling me, or telling me, or telling *someone* that she was alive and okay and just needed time away for a while, I would be pretty fucking pissed off. That's the *first* instinct. It doesn't mean they won't be sympathetic and kind and understanding shortly thereafter. You can't expect them to skip right to "oh, we love you Buffy; we understand", because they haven't been given anything *to* understand. I'd have spent three months worrying and alternating between panic and near-mourning, not to mention the vampires. I think their reactions were perfectly natural.

I think it definitely should be Buffy doing the apologizing. She took off with no thought for anyone but herself, and she had several months to get it together enough to at least make a phone call. Willow isn't the self-pitying one - Buffy is.

As for Marti Noxon, she's fine up until her scripts become All About Her And Her Problems And OMG I'M SO IMPORTANT THE SHOW SHOULD BE ABOUT ME!

And someone spoiled you hugely in a comment for something pretty important so I'm gonna walk away again for a while. *g*

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

As for Marti Noxon, she's fine up until her scripts become All About Her And Her Problems And OMG I'M SO IMPORTANT THE SHOW SHOULD BE ABOUT ME!

Exactly!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Okay, I am prepared.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah - it's a hard situation for everyone, especially with Buffy unable or unwilling to explain.

Buffy did apologize, but she didn't explain, and I think they really wanted more from her.

Thanks for the head's up on Marti Noxon.

As for the spoiler - I don't think I even noticed. Probably didn't understand.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

I will withhold my Noxon opinions until you finish the series :D Remind us then, ok? Cause there's a lot of background, but I honestly think that you're better off watching WITHOUT it first.

#8 - Armin Shimerman just SHINES as Synder

#10 - girls who play field hockey get scabs, scars, etc from all those sticks banging into them :D

#13 - Joyce persists in viewing all of Buffy's actions through a "normal" lens. Angel's a bad choice. Hell, Spike as whatever is a bad choice. Really, anything except being a good student, and "normal" is a bad choice. She just doesn't get it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I will withhold my Noxon opinions until you finish the series :D Remind us then, ok?

Okay. I can wait. Sorting out my own opinion as I go!

Armin Shimerman just SHINES as Synder

He certainly does!

Joyce persists in viewing all of Buffy's actions through a "normal" lens.

Can't really blame her.

Angel's a bad choice.

That would be true whatever the viewpoint - !

Spike as whatever is a bad choice.

Bad to the bone. In an entertaining sort of way.

She just doesn't get it.

Maybe she'll learn with experience?

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Marti Noxon's nickname is "Suicide Girl", for reals.

One should never leave one's precious show in the hands of anyone who is nicknamed "Suicide Girl." Ever.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Marti Noxon's nickname is "Suicide Girl", for reals.

Who calls her that? Fans?

One should never leave one's precious show in the hands of anyone who is nicknamed "Suicide Girl." Ever.

If Whedon was happy with her - ? Well, you never know with writers.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Joss' nickname for her was and is "Suicide Girl."

There are TWO ways the words "to joss" or "to get jossed" are used in fandom.

1) To have your fanfiction story screwed up by canon.

Eg.: My story about Sheppard's military father got jossed by "Outcast."

2) When a crappy script is revitalized and made good by a rewrite, usually by Joss Whedon.

Eg., as written on the BAPS chat list back in 6th season. 'Sides' are early versions of a script that are released for the casting of non-cast member characters in the scene:

I read the sides of (spoilery name of episode) and was surprised at how bad the two Spike scenes were, compared to what we saw on the screen. I wasn't surprised to hear from someone on-set that Joss stopped by after spending the day on the Firefly set and rewrote the scenes when James complained that Spike was written wildly out of character. The Spike/Buffy scenes were the only good scenes in the whole episode, you could tell that someone jossed the script.

I was on a huge (2,000+ member) list, the Bloody Awful Poet Society (BAPS) list, which had a number of people who worked in the business on it. It was pretty much assumed by all that no script got past Joss un-rewritten, until he began to drift away from the show in 6th season to play with his new toy, Firefly, finally handing BtVS over to lesser talents after the musical (though he was off the set during filming, Tabula Rasa is still partly his work, which is why it's a good and clever script.) Until then, nobody realized just how *meh* a good number of the BtVS writers were, especially Marti: how rough their ideas and constructs and dialogue could be until polished by Joss. But there *are* lots of fans who adore all the episodes, including ones I find shockingly poorly-written and ill-conceived, so you will of course make up your mind for yourself when you see them.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Joss' nickname for her was and is "Suicide Girl."

Got it.

There seems to be a wide range of reaction among fans to individual episodes, which I take to mean a good basic worth in both characters and theme - individual bad episodes don't really do much harm. (That's my reaction so far, anyway.) Though we all know I would not have persisted through first season had I not been assured by friends that better was coming.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

this is by Marti Noxon, one of the producers, whom someone mentioned here recently. What's the scoop on Marti Noxon?

I only really notice she's written one when Angel turns up half-naked and in chains - then I go "who wrote this? Oh, right, Marti."

I'm not sure how fair some of the fan reaction to her is. She seems to get blamed a lot for stuff people don't like later on - and the show has changed a lot by the end. There are still some excellent episodes though.

Giles is the best. He's the only one realizing that it isn't easy for her to come back.

The scene I like best in this is when Giles goes off to make the tea and just has a moment where he cracks and lets his feelings out in the privacy of his kitchen. And then he takes the cups back through and gets on with things.

Everyone else is trying too hard to be normal and not making it, that's part of what makes it awkward. And repressing the not so nice feelings at the same time.

I particularly love his gleeful refusal to let Buffy come back to school: "I have not only the right, but also a nearly physical sensation of pleasure at the thought of keeping her out of school. I'd describe myself as tingly." Such a perv!

Snyder's lines are beautiful.

New adult characters like Pat appearing always make me feel suspicious

I suspect it is very wrong of me and Pat was a perfectly nice lady, but my immediate reaction is "interfering busybody". Pretty much hated her on sight.

What choices does she mean? Being a slayer? Loving Angel? Running away? I get the impression here that Joyce really doesn't understand what's happening with Buffy at all.

I think she means running away and probably Angel too. I doubt Joyce has any idea what really happened with him at all, and so of course can't appreciate that Buffy is already living with the worst consequence.

Oz likes the undead/dead cat? Oz is strange

Oz appreciates the bizarre.

Xander shows himself not only to have not much sensitivity or judgement, but to be downright mean [...] This seems particularly cruel when you consider his contribution to the circumstances that led to Buffy's running away.

Yeah, this is another episode where I don't like him much. I personally think that they must all have worked out by this point that she had to kill Angel - what else would push her to run away like that? Perhaps there is some guilt mixed in with Xander's resentment for his lie and that makes it worse.

It might well be that Xander and Cordelia are rude/tactless enough to think they can set up a big party (with a band, yet) at someone else's house, but Willow usually has more tact, and the fact that Joyce would allow it - well, I find it all a little beyond the pale

Yup, and yup. Joyce should have thrown them out and the way they acted was the height of rudeness. I think it is just a way of avoiding talking to Buffy for Willow rather than revenge.

Seems to me that in general, Buffy isn't the one who should be doing the apologizing. But she does

I hate all that bit where they attack her like that. And I think Xander's remark about "most girls don't hop a Greyhound over boy trouble!" is the most insensitive comment of the lot, given he knows exactly how unlike normal "boy trouble" things were. I have to admit I have more sympathy for Buffy in this than for the others, though I can see why they are angry at her.

I do like the end where Buffy and Willow are sitting insulting each other in the cafe.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I only really notice she's written one when Angel turns up half-naked and in chains

Oh. I approve.

I always think of that as "an X-Men moment". (Hmm, by chance, there's a character named Angel in X-Men, and guess what? He's often half-naked and in chains.)

The scene I like best in this is when Giles goes off to make the tea and just has a moment where he cracks and lets his feelings out in the privacy of his kitchen. And then he takes the cups back through and gets on with things.

That was so perfect. Giles is not only brave and clever, he's got heart but he doesn't wear it on his sleeve. He handles situations well. And he cares.

Pretty much hated her on sight.

Me too. I have no problem with people like that in real life. But in context - in this episode - she seemed creepy. I'm not sure why.

I personally think that they must all have worked out by this point that she had to kill Angel - what else would push her to run away like that?

And it isn't a hard guess. It was, more or less, what she set out to do, if they couldn't save him first. Did they think it would be easy for her, or not have consequences? Even if they expected her to be stronger emotionally (fair enough, though they have some good idea how much she's committed to Angel), they shouldn't be wondering why she's so upset. Angel is gone.

I think Xander's remark about "most girls don't hop a Greyhound over boy trouble!" is the most insensitive comment of the lot, given he knows exactly how unlike normal "boy trouble" things were.

And sometimes girls do hop a Greyhound over boy trouble. Xander is being particularly obtuse here. I understand his anger, but I don't think it's justified.

I do like the end where Buffy and Willow are sitting insulting each other in the cafe.

Another lovely scene. I like the way we know it's all right then.