Buffy the Vampire Slayer (2x22) - Becoming, pt. 2

[fajrdrako]

Buffy (2x22) - Becoming, pt. 2

~ ~ ~

Plots thickening. This is a good one. Joss Whedon seems to be setting his stride; though there have been good episodes since the beginning of season 2 - and even before -

I didn't anticipate the ending here, but I like it.

1. So the cops drag Buffy away and she escapes them.
   
   
2. So Willow is unconscious, and the Angel-curse is uncast.
   
   
3. I like Cordelia's line: "I ran. I think I made it through three counties before I realized nobody was chasing me. Not too brave."
   
   
4. Good Angel line: "The last time I tortured somebody, they didn't even have chainsaws."
   
   
5. "Smoochies" is a new word for me with this show. (Compared to other forms of the word like smooch, smooching, etc.) It sounded right when Willow used it. But Whistler? Is he supposed to talk like Willow?
   
   
6. Whistler says, "You gotta be ready." I look around for Captain Jack Harkness.
   
   
7. Lovely line from Buffy to Spike: "Let me clear this up for you. We're mortal enemies. We don't get time-outs."
   
   
8. And then with every word out of Spike's mouth I love him more.

   Spike: I told you. I want to stop Angel. I want to save the world. [I note, with pleasure, that Spike calls Angel "Angel" not "Angelus".]
   Buffy: Okay. You do remember that you're a vampire, right?
   Spike: We like to talk big. Vampires do. 'I'm going to destroy the world.' That's just tough guy talk. Strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got... dog racing, Manchester United. And you've got people. Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision. With a real passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester Bloody Square.

   "Happy Meals with legs." Cracks me up. Spike is my hero.
   
   
9. And then Spike's climactic line: "I want Dru back." Joss Whedon has a sense of romance second to none.
   
   
10. Unlike me, Buffy is not impressed. "The whole earth may be sucked into Hell, and you want my help 'cause your girlfriend's a big ho? Well, let me take this opportunity to *not* care." Oh, Buffy, Buffy.
    
    
11. It still gets better:

    Buffy: I hate you.
    Spike: And I'm all you've got.

12. Does Xander really call Willow every night to talk about his day? Every night? No wonder Cordelia thinks he's uncommitted to her. So when he says, "I love you," does he mean, "I love you more than Cordelia or Buffy," or does he mean, "I love you as a dear friend I've known forever and odn't want to die." I suppose time will tell. And Oz's appearance cuts short any current revelations that might or might not happen. Interesting use of ambiguity in all these relationships. (By "all" I mean Willow, Xander, Cordelia and Oz, in their various combinations.)
    
    
13. Good (typical) Willow/Oz dialogue:

    Willow: My head... feels big. Is it big?
    Oz: No. It's head size.

14. A rock band with Spike? That is lame. That is as lame as Buffy has ever managed. Even Xander couldn't manage an excuse as lame as that.
    
    
15. So then Joyce actually sees Buffy kill a vampire and Buffy confesses: "I'm a vampire slayer." No wonder Joyce looks a little stunned. Shoplifter? Poor student? Murderer? Now - vampire slayer?
    
    
16. I like Willow's line, "I know my name and who's President and how many fingers."
    
    
17. One of the saddest lines is when Buffy says of Giles: "I just wish he was here to tell me what to do."
    
    
18. Joyce and Spike sit side by side in the living room, feeling awkward. Best Scene Ever. In the history of television, maybe.

    Joyce: Have we met?
    Spike: You hit me with an ax one time. Remember? 'Get the hell away from my daughter.'
    Joyce: Oh.

19. Then Spike and Buffy come to an impasse in negotiations:

    Buffy: Forget about Drusilla. She doesn't walk.
    Spike: There's no deal without Dru.
    Buffy: She killed Kendra.... I can't believe I invited you into my house.
    Spike: ... This deal works for me one way. Full stop. Me and Dru for Angel.

20. And Joyce's worst moment yet (despite a history of clueless moments): "I mean, have you tried not being a Slayer?" To close to the classic 'coming out as gay' scenario, or even (from X-Men), "have you tried not being a mutant?" Lamer even than Buffy's "in a band" line.
    
    
21. And Buffy is a little peeved with Joyce, too: "You thought I was guilty? Jeez, feeling the love in this room!" And Buffy's bottom line: "Cops can't fight demons. I have to do it."
    
    
22. So then they fight and Joyce says one stupid thing after another, ending with an ultimatum. "You walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back!" Uh-oh. She's going to be sorry she said that.
    
    
23. Willow thinks she can still do the curse. Well - of course she can!
    
    
24. Resolve face: I like it.
    
    
25. Willow tells Oz that Cordelia will fill him in on what's going on. I would not trust Cordelia to tell anyone what is going on. It's not that she has a problem having a grasp of reality. It's that her priorities are not other people's priorities. He'll get a rant about make-up and vampire clothes. (Mind you, next to Cordelia, Spike and Dru have the best sense of style in the show.)
    
    
26. Giles is being tortured by Angel. (Bad vampire mode.)

    Angel: You know, I can stop the pain. You've been very brave... but it's over... Now let me make it stop.
    Giles: Please!
    Angelus: Just tell me what I need to know.
    Giles: In order... to be worthy...
    Angel: Yeah?
    Giles: You must perform the ritual... in a tutu. Pillock!

    This reminds me of Mal Reynolds being tortured by Niska. Hero-stuff. (I do love Giles in heroic mode.)
    
    
27. Angel calls Spike "sit 'n' spin". That is very, very funny.
    
    
28. Spike, also in fine form: "I don't fancy spending the next month trying to get librarian out of the carpet."
    
    
29. Then Snyder expells Buffy. And isn't he enjoying this! I chuckle. ("Demon, demon, bet you're a demon," I mutter inanely to myself. Do you think it's possible this show is getting to me?)
    
    
30. So clever Drusilla gets past Giles' defenses by channelling Jenny. Oooh boy, this is not good. No jokes about tutus this time. I like the way Drusilla seems to like kissing Giles. "I was in the moment." Well. Can't blame her.
    
    
31. Whistler, with a bottle of beer, says: "You know, raiding an Englishman's fridge is like dating a nun. You're never gonna get the good stuff." Huh? Is he talking about beer? British beer is great. It's one thing the British do really, really well. Pub culture and all. Ah, well, what does a demon know about good beer?
    
    
32. Another good bit of good, sad dialogue:

    Whistler: The faster you kill Angel, the easier it's gonna be on you.
    Buffy: Don't worry about me.
    Whistler: It's all on the line here, kid.
    Buffy: I can deal. I got nothing left to lose.

    But Whistler says she has something else to lose - what?
    
    
33. And a bit of not-quite-the-whole-truth on Xander's part:

    Xander: Willow. She told me to tell you...
    Buffy: Tell me what?
    Xander: Kick his ass.

    I love the way different characters have different goals. Does Xander fear that when Buffy finds out what he's not telling her, she'll hate him? I guess he's willing to face that.
    
    
34. Nice Cordelia line: "Stinky herbs are a go."
    
    
35. Good SPike line to Drusilla: "I don't want to hurt you, baby. Doesn't mean I won't."
    
    
36. Great Xander-Giles dialogue:

    Giles: You're not real.
    Xander: Sure, I'm real.
    Giles: It's a trick. They get inside my head, make me see things I want.
    Xander: Then why would they make you see me?
    Giles: You're right. Let's go.

    What I like best is that it's a straightforward and innocent question on Xander's part.
    
    
37. Willow gets spooky. Is she being possessed by the old gypsy woman? or is she doing this on her own?
    
    
38. So Angel recovers his soul and Buffy stabs him. Woo. Quite a scene.
    
    
39. It looks as if the only person sucked into hell by Acathla is Angel.
    
    
40. So Buffy leaves Sunnydale. Well: not much there for her - kicked out by Joyce, expelled by Snyder, she's just killed her boyfriend, and vampires don't come out (much) in summer.

Comments

[gillo]

I didn't anticipate the ending here, but I like it.

Can you now conceive - and admire - the enormous restraint your fans have been showing over this?

Whistler says, "You gotta be ready." I look around for Captain Jack Harkness.

We may have mentioned RTD's

Buffy

mania?

"Happy Meals with legs." Cracks me up. Spike is my hero.

One of my favourite Spike speeches ever. A ManU fan from London. Gloryboys, all of them.

Unlike me, Buffy is not impressed. "The whole earth may be sucked into Hell, and you want my help 'cause your girlfriend's a big ho? Well, let me take this opportunity to *not* care." Oh, Buffy, Buffy.

She's still young and inexperienced.

Interesting use of ambiguity in all these relationships. (By "all" I mean Willow, Xander, Cordelia and Oz, in their various combinations.)

Very true. ::bites tongue::

Joyce and Spike sit side by side in the living room, feeling awkward. Best Scene Ever. In the history of television, maybe.

Joyce:

Have we met?

Spike:

You hit me with an ax one time. Remember? 'Get the hell away from my daughter.'
Joyce: Oh.

It's truly wonderful, but Joss can and will do even better.

So then they fight and Joyce says one stupid thing after another, ending with an ultimatum. "You walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back!" Uh-oh. She's going to be sorry she said that.

Very sorry. She still has so much to process now though.

Angel calls Spike "sit 'n' spin". That is very, very funny.

Angelus is much funnier than Angel.

("Demon, demon, bet you're a demon," I mutter inanely to myself. Do you think it's possible this show is getting to me?)

If it hasn't by now there's no hope for you.

"You know, raiding an Englishman's fridge is like dating a nun. You're never gonna get the good stuff." Huh? Is he talking about beer? British beer is great. It's one thing the British do really, really well. Pub culture and all. Ah, well, what does a demon know about good beer?

But we never keep our beer in the fridge. That would be sacrilege. The good stuff is at cellar temperature.

Good SPike line to Drusilla: "I don't want to hurt you, baby. Doesn't mean I won't."

Oh yes. I love him in that scene.

So Angel recovers his soul and Buffy stabs him. Woo. Quite a scene.

I had a room-full of sobbing teenagers the first time they showed this.

I totally deny I was doing the same.

So Buffy leaves Sunnydale. Well: not much there for her - kicked out by Joyce, expelled by Snyder, she's just killed her boyfriend, and vampires don't come out (much) in summer.

Yup. End of series, right? (Only five more seasons...)

You perhaps may understand why many of us count this pair of episodes amongst our top ten? I do hope you are going to move straight on.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Can you now conceive - and admire - the enormous restraint your fans have been showing over this?

Oh yes.

We may have mentioned RTD's Buffy mania?

You have, but it isn't as if you need to. It's mentioned often enough in multiple episodes of Torchwood and Doctor Who. I love a show that steals from the greats.

A ManU fan from London. Gloryboys, all of them.

I worship the ground that vampire walks on.

It's truly wonderful, but Joss can and will do even better.

Really?

Wow.

Okay. I look forward to that.

Incredulously. (Better? Really?)

But we never keep our beer in the fridge. That would be sacrilege. The good stuff is at cellar temperature.

Point. So what, then, was he looking for?

I totally deny I was doing the same.

Denial is pointless. Never excuse, never explain.

You perhaps may understand why many of us count this pair of episodes amongst our top ten?

Yes.

I do hope you are going to move straight on.

I'm doing so.

[gillo]

It's mentioned often enough in multiple episodes of Torchwood and Doctor Who. I love a show that steals from the greats.

RTD purloins with style.

I worship the ground that vampire walks on.

As do many of us. So, you don't ship Buffy4Angel4Evah?

Really?

Wow.

Okay. I look forward to that.

Incredulously. (Better? Really?)

I'd put this pair in my top ten, but at least four, possibly five are ahead of them. (None of which you've seen yet.)

Point. So what, then, was he looking for?

Like many Americans he probably assumes good beer comes icy cold. In cans.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

RTD purloins with style.

The Eroica of the television profession.

So, you don't ship Buffy4Angel4Evah?

Who, me? I'm the person who loved both Mulder/Skinner and Mulder/Krycek. I'm the person who ships Captain Jack Harkness with every passing man, woman and alien. I'm the person who - no, let's not get into the sailslash.

Let's just say I'm flexible when it comes to shipping.

Truly, one of the first Buffy scenes I ever actually saw (as opposed to 'heard about') was a Buffy/Spike sex scene. Impressive. Or at least... made an impression. And, remember, I couldn't stand David Boreanaz at that point, and my aversion to him was one of the reasons I wasn't actually watching that show. So the notion that Buffy could prefer Angel to Spike was downright inconceivable to me. Was the girl nuts?

(Most possibly.)

But of course I really can't comment on this because it's all part of that stuff-about-to-come that I'm trying to forget I ever saw or knew about. Selective memory. Usually I can sort of... block it. It isn't as if I knew much about what was really going on in the stories anyway, back then.

I'd put this pair in my top ten, but at least four, possibly five are ahead of them.

All from Buffy?

Like many Americans he probably assumes good beer comes icy cold. In cans.

Gross.

[gillo]

I'm the person who ships Captain Jack Harkness with every passing man, woman and alien. I'm the person who - no, let's not get into the sailslash.

Let's just say I'm flexible when it comes to shipping.

So you ship Captain Jack with a ship?

I'm boring - Spuffy is always my ship of choice.

But of course I really can't comment on this because it's all part of that stuff-about-to-come that I'm trying to forget I ever saw or knew about. Selective memory. Usually I can sort of... block it. It isn't as if I knew much about what was really going on in the stories anyway, back then.

No. Don't you regret the wasted years?

Me: I'd put this pair in my top ten, but at least four, possibly five are ahead of them.

You: All from Buffy?

Yes indeed. Two episodes from S4, two from S5, one at least from S6, with two more close contenders. One I love from S7 too, though possibly not quite up to this pair.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So you ship Captain Jack with a ship?

Only if you consider the TARDIS a ship.

Spuffy is always my ship of choice.

That's Spike/Buffy, right?

Don't you regret the wasted years?

Not in the least. It's fun to discover it all now.

[gillo]

Only if you consider the TARDIS a ship.

I suppose it is in a way.

That's Spike/Buffy, right?

Yes, just as Buffy/Angel is Bangel. Back in the day there were serious shipper wars over this, apparently.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Back in the day there were serious shipper wars over this, apparently.

I can believe it. This kind of schism always makes me think of X-Files - I couldn't believe how the Mulder/Skinner folk and the Mulder/Krycek folk couldn't get along.

[jackarono.livejournal.com]

Xander: Willow. She told me to tell you...
Buffy: Tell me what?
Xander: Kick his ass.

Now wait until Season 7, when this comes back. Joss Whedon forgets nothing, and he uses this against Xander when Xander faces the same dilemma as Buffy.

Joss is god.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I will keep all those things in mind.

[judymoe.livejournal.com]

Ack, spoiler alert!!!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Is it? Don't worry, it makes so little sense out of context like that that I didn't even understand it.

[beccaelizabeth]

the torture thing is one of the things that bugs me once I notice a pattern. If a hero is being tortured they do heroic quipping. If a villain is being tortured by a hero, they do telling them accurate information pretty much right away. Torture doesn't work... for bad guys. For good guys it works.
This would be only as dumb as the good guys always winning, except it then feeds into cultural myths about torture that, much to my great disbelief, feed into actual politics. And actions.

otoh, the best bit:



Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No
hope. Take all that away... and what's left?
Buffy: Me.


Power :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the torture thing. At one time I would have said I never enjoyed a torture scene; then I saw "War Stories" in Firefly. Which proves your point, pretty much.

Yeah: that's great, great dialogue.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

But Whistler says she has something else to lose - what?

Herself. Which is why you get her response to Angelus when she stops his sword with her bare hands. "Me."

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Right! Great bit of dialogue there.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Not sure you realize this, but "Sit 'n' Spin" is an actual kid's toy. Go to Hasbro.com and do a search for it to see it. Angelus is dissing Spike on so many levels!

I have a friend who very angrily stopped watching the show (for a while, anyway) because she was an absolute wreck after this episode with the emotional wrench of the death of Angel, only to find out he was getting his own show next season so there was no way he was really dead. She felt it cheapened the whole thing and made fools of the fans who took the death of the character seriously. I noticed this reaction again with the recent rumors I've heard that Rose Tyler might return to Doctor Who: the episode where she was parted from him was so heart-wrenching that people feel her return would cheapen the emotional impact.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Re 'Sit 'n' Spin' - I'd heard of it I think, but I wasn't sure what it was. (Yes, I've had a look on Google now.) It sounds like a kind of washing machine!

And yes, Angel is bad, bad to the bone and I love it.

I have a friend who very angrily stopped watching the show (for a while, anyway) because she was an absolute wreck after this episode with the emotional wrench of the death of Angel

Sort of like the people who stop reading the Dunnett novels in protest when they think Lymond has been killed. And we all say: "Don't stop! Don't stop there!"

She felt it cheapened the whole thing and made fools of the fans who took the death of the character seriously.

Understandable, I suppose, but I take it she hadn't been trained on years of Marvel comics. Death is mutable in fiction. Especially in a story about demons, vampires, magic and heroes.

I noticed this reaction again with the recent rumors I've heard that Rose Tyler might return to Doctor Who: the episode where she was parted from him was so heart-wrenching that people feel her return would cheapen the emotional impact.

I confess that this was my first reaction, too. It seemed wrong, wrong, wrong - especially since I so loved "Doomsday" and thought it was the perfect ending.

But. I then decided I should have more faith in them than that. Not that they are guaranteed to do stories I like - obviously not, since I didn't like "The Last of the Time Lords" - but that's totally beside the point. They do things in ways I don't expect, and often do it better than I ever could have imagined. So - no judging it before it happens. At least, not from me.

[filkferengi]

When Star Trek 2 came out, my mom was all upset, because she had heard Spock died. I told her, "Trust the writers." There're obviously some [notable] exceptions, but it's been kind of an article of faith with me ever since.

Also, speaking of power, I'm reading this whole discussion while playing Ase's playlist of power ballads performed by women:
http://ase.livejournal.com/411532.html

:)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

"Trust the writers."

Yes - that tends to be my credo. Or perhaps it goes in stages:

1. I check out a show, see if I like it. If it bores me, that's it.
2. If it catches my interest, I give it the attention it deserves - suspend my disbelief, trust the writers.
3. They can even mess up and do things I don't like, and I'll give them a chance to get back on track and do things I do like.
4. The fatal thing is not to do things I don't like (like killing off a character or presenting a bad episode), the fatal flaw to bore me.

In other things... it would simply depend how they do what they do. Turn Lex Luthor bad on Smallville, they lost me. Kill Spock in Star Trek - no problem; it turned out all right in the end.

Of course, all my favourite characters in comics have died at least once.

I bet this goes to 2 parts...

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

This is one of my very favourite episodes ever.

So the cops drag Buffy away and she escapes them

That's actually my only quibble with it that I can think of - why were the cops at the library?

So Willow is unconscious, and the Angel-curse is uncast

No, wait, I have another quibble - why isn't Willow hooked up to any monitoring equipment? I love that scene though for the way Xander is so relieved to see Cordelia and the way we get the dawning realisation that Giles is in deep trouble.

Another scene I like is Joyce and the cops. Partly because I'm pretty sure the speaking detective is the same one from Ted but mostly because I like how Joyce reacts. She doesn't believe Buffy did it but she is worried and I like it.

Whistler says, "You gotta be ready." I look around for Captain Jack Harkness

Hee. I am fond of Buffy's line about pulling out his ribcage and wearing it as a hat. I like how she tells him off for not fighting evil himself as well. But the one I really like is: "In the end, you're always by yourself. You're all you got -- That's the point." because the moment with the sword later.

Lovely line from Buffy to Spike: "Let me clear this up for you. We're mortal enemies. We don't get time-outs."

Heh. Man, I love this scene.

And then with every word out of Spike's mouth I love him more

Oh yeah. I adore his little smile on "I want to save the world". It's a fantastic bit of plotting character-wise as well - Spike is so angry at Angel that he has (a) been very patient and waited for the right opportunity despite provocation, and (b) is willing for that opportunity to be teaming up with someone who wants to kill him. Just making Buffy the offer takes some balls considering he's spent quite a bit of time trying to kill her. And Buffy is able to put aside that as well to work with him. Just marvellous.

I like as well how during his speech you can see Buffy being drawn in - she starts off a couple of feet away and gradually moves closer as he talks.

Buffy: I hate you.
Spike: And I'm all you've got.

And by that point the deal is already made. They hit each other for saying what they don't want to hear, but it doesn't go to a fight again. I like how they walk off side by side, giving each other the wary looks. Oh, and Buffy clearing her throat to stop him killing the cop always makes me smile - Spike just looks so discomfitted by it, like he's thinking "whoops, okay new rules".

Does Xander really call Willow every night to talk about his day? Every night?

That always strikes me as such a teenage girl thing to do. It's also very sweet. I love that scene - and I do tend to take it as Xander loving Willow as family and best friend, not "in love" love.

A rock band with Spike? That is lame. That is as lame as Buffy has ever managed. Even Xander couldn't manage an excuse as lame as that.

I love it. And Spike's totally deadpan "well, I sing" to Joyce after he slips up with the triangle remark (and considering his punk ethos, that was a big slip). I also noticed this time the whole exchange of meaningful looks Buffy and Spike have going on. Interesting since they normally interact by homicide attempts.

Buffy confesses: "I'm a vampire slayer." No wonder Joyce looks a little stunned.

Okay this is the look I really noticed - before Buffy confesses, she looks at Spike. It's this look of shared knowledge and Spike isn't mocking her and being amused by the situation, he's serious. I like as well how that they worked together to kill that vamp spy so easily just before.

One of the saddest lines is when Buffy says of Giles: "I just wish he was here to tell me what to do."

Yeah. Though on rewatches, what really gets me is "I know I'm never gonna get Angel back the way he was and, you know, it makes it easier." Waaaah!

I always wonder if Buffy ever told the rest just who her backup was. I think she doesn't here because they would think she was insane for even considering it!

Re: I bet this goes to 2 parts...

[flautopiccolo.livejournal.com]

[That's actually my only quibble with it that I can think of - why were the cops at the library?]

My guess was that Principal Snyder called them in. Though that begs the question as to how Snyder happened to notice there was a body in the library.

Re: I bet this goes to 2 parts...

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Though that begs the question as to how Snyder happened to notice there was a body in the library.

That was my thinking too. Maybe he heard a commotion and investigated in between the vampires leaving and Buffy arriving?

Re: I bet this goes to 2 parts...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This is one of my very favourite episodes ever.

I can imagine. It's Just So Good.

why were the cops at the library?

Somebody sent them? I'm sure if I think hard enough I can find a rationale.

why isn't Willow hooked up to any monitoring equipment?

I don't trust those Sunnydale doctors. They consort with demons.

I love that scene though for the way Xander is so relieved to see Cordelia and the way we get the dawning realisation that Giles is in deep trouble.

Loved it.

I'm pretty sure the speaking detective is the same one from Ted

Oh - good catch!

She doesn't believe Buffy did it but she is worried and I like it.

Yes, and that goes well with the later line where Buffy is hurt that Joyce might even consider her guilty, while Joyce didn't mean it like that and we know she had faith in Buffy.

"In the end, you're always by yourself. You're all you got -- That's the point." because the moment with the sword later.

Some beautiful writing there. I like lines that mean more later than they do when said.

I adore his little smile on "I want to save the world".

His delivery is just perfect.

ust making Buffy the offer takes some balls considering he's spent quite a bit of time trying to kill her. And Buffy is able to put aside that as well to work with him. Just marvellous.

The psychological set-up is just perfect. Spike's strategy, Buffy's understanding of the situation - it all fits so perfectly. And Spike's motives.

I like as well how during his speech you can see Buffy being drawn in - she starts off a couple of feet away and gradually moves closer as he talks.

As a viewer, I felt much the same.

Buffy clearing her throat to stop him killing the cop always makes me smile - Spike just looks so discomfitted by it, like he's thinking "whoops, okay new rules".

I was thinking: New ally, new situation. Just as Spike adjusted to Angel, he can adjust to Buffy. Without compromising himself.

I do tend to take it as Xander loving Willow as family and best friend, not "in love" love.

I'm reserving judgement. But I do note that if Xander is spending that much time and energy talking to Willow, it's time/energy he's not spending with Cordelia. There are so many things that make his relationship with Cordelia look... ephemeral, if not half-baked.

I also noticed this time the whole exchange of meaningful looks Buffy and Spike have going on. Interesting since they normally interact by homicide attempts.

LOL. So true! But they slip very easily into real communication. This is interesting in that we've seldom seen Spike interact with non-vampires before this point. (Except for lunch.)

I think she doesn't here because they would think she was insane for even considering it!

And quite right, too, especially when she was the person who previously trusted Angel too much. But Buffy knows that sometimes an insane act is necessary to be effective, and she's willing to take that step.

I love it!

Re: I bet this goes to 2 parts...

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

I don't trust those Sunnydale doctors. They consort with demons.

Heeee!

Some beautiful writing there. I like lines that mean more later than they do when said

Yeah. It's fun because sometimes it takes a second watch to catch all the implications and that's always cool.

His delivery is just perfect.

I sometimes think James Marsters is god. (Though his hair was doing some weird bouffant thing here).

New ally, new situation. Just as Spike adjusted to Angel, he can adjust to Buffy

Spike is nothing if not adaptable. But I would say that he does compromise, and that is part of how he adapts - after all, he doesn't kill that cop.

But they slip very easily into real communication

Communication is also one of Spike's gifts. I think it's interesting from Buffy's side as well as we've never seen her interacting with an enemy in a way that isn't about trying to kill them either. In fact, Spike and Buffy's situations are extremely similar and it says something about both of their abilities to adapt and take a gamble that they make it work.

Re: I bet this goes to 2 parts...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's fun because sometimes it takes a second watch to catch all the implications and that's always cool.

What's really cool is that some of these episodes have as much emotional impact on second (or third) viewing as first.

his hair was doing some weird bouffant thing here

His hair is cute.

I would say that he does compromise, and that is part of how he adapts - after all, he doesn't kill that cop.

When he has motivation, he compromises - judiciously. He knows what he's doing.

t's interesting from Buffy's side as well as we've never seen her interacting with an enemy in a way that isn't about trying to kill them either.

Good point, except for Angel, who is a special case - and even with him, she's talking about killing/not killing him each time they interact.

Spike and Buffy's situations are extremely similar and it says something about both of their abilities to adapt and take a gamble that they make it work.

I love them both.

...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Joyce and Spike sit side by side in the living room, feeling awkward

That cracks me up. I love the one where they don't speak even more for they way Spike is looking everywhere but Joyce. Though the line about the axe is marvellous, and Joyce's reply of "oh. So... do you live here in town?" is priceless.

Then Spike and Buffy come to an impasse in negotiations

I love the negotiations for how Joyce keeps interrupting and Spike eventually takes Buffy's arm (and she lets him) and tugs her away slightly to get on with the important stuff and the way Buffy is trying to be the Slayer and deal with her mother's freaking at the same time. Poor Joyce - Buffy really does have bigger things going on than explaining to her.

I also adore Spike's pride at Drusilla killing Kendra - and then how Buffy just gives him a look and he gets that he's made a gaffe and stops gloating instantly. Clash of worldviews.

And Joyce's worst moment yet (despite a history of clueless moments): "I mean, have you tried not being a Slayer?" To close to the classic 'coming out as gay' scenario

It's close to the coming out scenario very much on purpose. She even talks about Buffy not having a strong father figure. According to the script site I use, there was originally a scene between Joyce and Buffy in part one where Buffy tells her she's going to study with Willow, Joyce says she hopes they don't just talk about boys and Buffy's reply is "Oh, we don't like boys. I mean, while we're studying. We like boys. Some boys. . ."

So then they fight and Joyce says one stupid thing after another

Yeah, but... I feel bad for her. It is a lot to suddenly drop and Buffy really doesn't take the time to explain. She is very short with her, which is also understandable, but telling her mother to "just have another drink" was not the best way to handle it. Buffy's speech about how it never stops always gets me though.

"You walk out of this house, don't even think about coming back!" Uh-oh. She's going to be sorry she said that

I think she's sorry as soon as she says it. I love the way Buffy just walks off quietly after it. She doesn't yell back, doesn't slam the door, she just leaves. Because she has to.

Willow thinks she can still do the curse

And right at that moment I realised how it would end and spent the rest of the episode in denial going "oh, please, no".

Willow tells Oz that Cordelia will fill him in on what's going on

I use Oz's line about "this is making the kind of sense that's not" a lot in RL. And Willow's resolve face is adorable.

Giles: You must perform the ritual... in a tutu. Pillock!

Go Giles! I like his range of British insults as well. It's interesting how much they can get away with just because people in the US don't say the same things - they can use wanker, bloody and sodding later on.

And here we see Spike keep his word to Buffy. He saves Giles from the chainsaw - okay, he also gets the ritual details out of Giles, but hard to avoid that at this point - and then talks Angel out of killing him afterwards. And Angel is grateful Spike is watching his back... *glee*

Whistler, with a bottle of beer, says: "You know, raiding an Englishman's fridge is like dating a nun. You're never gonna get the good stuff."

I figure this is because Giles doesn't keep the good stuff in the fridge, and Whistler just doesn't realise.

But Whistler says she has something else to lose - what?

I always think of it as something like... hm, I'm not sure how to put it. Her last bit of innocence? Only that's not really right - but having to kill the man she loves, not the monster with his face, is what does it. She has to make that deliberate decision to break her own heart, and while before she knew that Angel losing his soul was at least an accident even if she did blame herself, now that comfort is taken away because she chooses to kill him herself and send him to hell. Gah. Does that make sense? I disagree with tzikeh about it being her losing herself because that bit with the sword is about finding herself and her strength to me.

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I love the one where they don't speak even more for they way Spike is looking everywhere but Joyce.

It is just so perfect.

Spike eventually takes Buffy's arm (and she lets him)

Good moment.

Buffy really does have bigger things going on than explaining to her.

"Have to go kill my boyfriend. Home soon."

Buffy just gives him a look and he gets that he's made a gaffe and stops gloating instantly. Clash of worldviews.

I love the way Spike can adapt without compromising himself. It's very like he did with Angel - didn't oppose him directly, but worked with him. To a point. Spike is so good at strategy.

Joyce says she hopes they don't just talk about boys and Buffy's reply is "Oh, we don't like boys. I mean, while we're studying. We like boys. Some boys. . ."

LOL.

Buffy's speech about how it never stops always gets me though.

Yes. It's great. And the whole situation with Joyce - she could only find out in a crisis situation, but a crisis situation is the worst opportunity for real explanation. And this is so much more of a crisis than most - a climactic crisis.

She doesn't yell back, doesn't slam the door, she just leaves. Because she has to.

It is, in its way, a solution. Walk out and the 'mother' problem is solved.

at that moment I realised how it would end and spent the rest of the episode in denial going "oh, please, no".

I had no idea, but I was nail-biting and worrying.

Willow's resolve face is adorable.

It certainly is.

It's interesting how much they can get away with just because people in the US don't say the same things - they can use wanker, bloody and sodding later on.

I love that. I don't think it works quite as well the other way round, though - American language doesn't sound as 'safe' in British films.

Angel is grateful Spike is watching his back... *glee*

I loved that. It all fits together perfectly.

Giles doesn't keep the good stuff in the fridge, and Whistler just doesn't realise.

Sounds likely.

having to kill the man she loves, not the monster with his face, is what does it.

Do you think Whistler care foresee that? It's certainly a case of throwing the protagonist into the worst case scenario, finding the thing that would be worst for her. But it's also a coming-of-age thing. She does the worst thing possible and it almost destroys her, but it doesn't. I'll have to think more about what it does do - maybe will talk about it when I post about "Anne".

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Do you think Whistler care foresee that?

Hm. Interesting question. He does seem to have some foreknowledge - he's clear that the faster she kills Angel the easier it will be for Buffy. He also obviously knew that Acathla and Angel's fates were linked and he talks about how nobody saw Buffy coming. And that's an interesting comment seeing as the reason Buffy didn't get found until after she'd become the Slayer was because the Council didn't see her coming either... and we know she flunked the written on prophecies. Maybe Buffy is a wild card in the tarot pack. And now that she's thrown the original course of the future (Angel defeating Acathla) into disarray, Whistler can see other possibilities coming down the pipe.

It's certainly a case of throwing the protagonist into the worst case scenario, finding the thing that would be worst for her

Isn't that how Lois McMaster Bujold plots as well?

it's also a coming-of-age thing. She does the worst thing possible and it almost destroys her, but it doesn't. I'll have to think more about what it does do - maybe will talk about it when I post about "Anne"

Yes, very definitely a coming-of-age. What it does... is hard to discuss at this point for me because (as it should) it affects her a long way forward. But I'll be interested to see your take on the immediate effects in the "Anne" post.

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

he talks about how nobody saw Buffy coming

A mini-theme that I find delightful but don't know how to interpret. All the hints that Buffy isn't like other Slayers. She doesn't go by the book (which she didn't even know about), they didn't know about her from birth, she has trouble accepting her destiny, and no one really know what to make of her - except maybe Giles.

we know she flunked the written on prophecies

She did? Heh. When was that mentioned?

Maybe Buffy is a wild card in the tarot pack

I like that. I like it that she is special/different, particularly since there isn't just one Slayer.

Isn't that how Lois McMaster Bujold plots as well?

Yes - figure out the worst possible thing for the character and do it. To good effect.

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

It's close to the coming out scenario very much on purpose. She even talks about Buffy not having a strong father figure.

I loved that scene. And remember, it happened years before "have you tried not being a mutant?".

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it happened years before "have you tried not being a mutant?".

It might happen years before that exact phrase from the X-Men movie, but the scenario and theme had been happening in X-Men for a good decade before that. Buffy takes a fair amount from comics.

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

Oops, yeah, I was just thinking of the film.

Yeah, he's a big comics fan. And wrote for X-Men?

Re: ...maybe even 3 (sorry)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

he's a big comics fan. And wrote for X-Men?

He's been writing The Astonishing X-Men for the past few years, though I think his tenure on the title has ended now.

yup, it's 3

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

And a bit of not-quite-the-whole-truth on Xander's part

I have mixed feelings here. Because I do think it is good Buffy didn't know Willow was trying again. It would have lessened her focus, she might even have lost because she wouldn't have been going all out to kill Angel and I don't think her final decision would have been made any easier by having to face the possibility of it for longer. But I do not for one second believe Xander was thinking about making it easier for her when he didn't tell her. His goal is for Angel to die, and that's it, and it makes me angry at him.

Good SPike line to Drusilla: "I don't want to hurt you, baby. Doesn't mean I won't."

Oh yeah. Preceded by one of my very favourite moments, when Angel asks Buffy "do you really think you can take us all on?", she says "No I don't" and Spike rises up behind him and takes him out with an iron bar. Go Spike!

Willow gets spooky. Is she being possessed by the old gypsy woman? or is she doing this on her own?

No idea. But I love the scene, and Oz and Cordelia's reactions.

The moment when Spike looks back and sees Buffy cornered and on the ground is cool as well, because there's this moment where he looks genuinely worried that she's going to die - and then he shrugs it off, remembers his goal is to get Dru back and leaves.

And possibly my very favourite moment in this ep (and a good contender for favourite moment ever):

Angel: Take all that away and what's left?
Buffy: Me.

Gives me shivers. Because that's her rising up and becoming.

So Angel recovers his soul and Buffy stabs him. Woo. Quite a scene

And every time I watch I tell myself I won't cry this time, and every time I get all teary eyed when Buffy tells him to close his eyes and her face twists up as she kisses him for the last time. And then when she just crumbles into sobs afterwards I'm sniffing right along with her.

And that Sarah McLachlan song just kills me whenever I hear it now because I associate it so strongly with this episode.

I like the conversation the rest have outside the school, waiting for Buffy to turn up. Willow is so hopeful, seeing the most optimistic outcome, Xander is clearly feeling the guilt over his lie, and Giles is just worried. I always find Willow's line "Yeah. She'll be here in a while." really sad.

Ditto for the last shot of the sign:

"Now leaving Sunnydale.
Come back soon."

Oh, did you watch to the end of the credits to see the Grr Argh monster? If you didn't, you should. :-)

Re: yup, it's 3

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I do think it is good Buffy didn't know Willow was trying again.

I would think that would have given her hope that Angel could be redeemed or recalled, and at that point, she can't afford hope. And if she'd had expectations - would she have had the fortitude to kill Angel?

His goal is for Angel to die, and that's it, and it makes me angry at him.

Me too, for various reasons. Lying to a friend is not good. Revenge for its own sake is not good. And if it's hatred inspired by jealousy - also not good.

ngel asks Buffy "do you really think you can take us all on?", she says "No I don't" and Spike rises up behind him and takes him out with an iron bar. Go Spike!

Such a wonderful moment.

The moment when Spike looks back and sees Buffy cornered and on the ground is cool as well

I like the way Spike thinks (and feels) on several levels at once. He has his own agenda, but he also has a great deal of awareness.

that's her rising up and becoming.

Uh-huh. Knowing what she has to do. What she has to be. What the cost is. Not hesitating.

I love the way that scene turns everything upside down and Angel-the-predator becomes Angel-the-victim. Or maybe it's "Angel the sacrifice".

I always find Willow's line "Yeah. She'll be here in a while." really sad.

You know they wait for her, and expect her, and go on waiting. They're even waiting when school starts again. And Buffy doesn't come.

did you watch to the end of the credits to see the Grr Argh monster? If you didn't, you should. :-)

Yes, I did. And I loved it. But I don't now remember what it was! I'll have to look again.

Re: yup, it's 3

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

at that point, she can't afford hope. And if she'd had expectations - would she have had the fortitude to kill Angel?

Precisely. Though for me I think it would have been the other way around - she wouldn't have got the chance to find out if she could kill him, because instead of going all out, she would have been holding back to try and delay like she did in the graveyard. And Angel would have killed her. Or maybe not - maybe knowing Acathla was waking would have been enough of a push. But I think she would still have been divided in her mind and that she couldn't afford that in this fight.

Lying to a friend is not good. Revenge for its own sake is not good. And if it's hatred inspired by jealousy - also not good.

Yes, angry for all those reasons. Xander does have his good points, he does, I know he does. It's just in this episode (and some others later) I have real trouble remembering what they are!

He has his own agenda, but he also has a great deal of awareness.

Yes. And that perceptiveness is something that appears a lot with Spike. He's very aware of the goals and emotions of others - possibly because he is aware of his own emotions and open about it.

Or maybe it's "Angel the sacrifice".

Oooh. That is a good thought. I like it.

Yes, I did. And I loved it. But I don't now remember what it was!

He says "Oh, I need a huuug". Such a relief to get a giggle after the trauma of the episode!

There's one or two others where they change what the monster dude says, and it's always funny.

Re: yup, it's 3

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think she would still have been divided in her mind and that she couldn't afford that in this fight.

It would have been a different dilemma, but still a dilemma.

Xander does have his good points, he does, I know he does. It's just in this episode (and some others later) I have real trouble remembering what they are!

Definitely a problematic character. Interesting for that reason. As the series continues, the aspects I dislike about Xander are slowly but surely outnumbering the facets of him that I like. Which is not to say I hate the character, but he is not admirable. He has some unconscionable weaknesses.

He's very aware of the goals and emotions of others - possibly because he is aware of his own emotions and open about it.

It makes him very endearing. (And the sort of opposite of Xander, who is generally clueless about feelings, or unable to express them.)

"Oh, I need a huuug"

yes - brilliant!

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

This pair is very good. And I love Willow's spell. I usually do.

I like the way Drusilla seems to like kissing Giles. "I was in the moment."

Poor Rupert's expression behind her when her words, and their significance sink in.

Poor boy. I hate the use of torture in general and I'm glad that we actually don't know what went on. But Rupert's reactions all along are very IC. And Spike saves his life - which I'm not sure Rupert is aware of and I don't recall him ever getting credit for it.

BTW, I can't imagine what Spike did to knock Dru out. Can't be choking. She doesn't breathe.


Whistler says she has something else to lose - what?
Herself. That's what she has to use facing Angelus at the final stage. What Angelus says ties so closely in with the next 301 (on which I've just commented).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I love Willow's spell. I usually do.

I sometimes fear that Willow can be her own worst enemy but I love her style.

Poor Rupert's expression behind her when her words, and their significance sink in.

The whole thing is awful for him -not just because of the torture. Essentially, he is outwitted in a way he can't fight.

Spike saves his life - which I'm not sure Rupert is aware of and I don't recall him ever getting credit for it.

I thought Giles was not aware of Spike's role, least of all Spike's motives or strategy. Does Buffy ever tell Giles about it? I would understand why not, if she didn't.

I can't imagine what Spike did to knock Dru out. Can't be choking. She doesn't breathe.

Hmm. Good question. Perhaps he had a potion which overcame her? I'm sure he would know her weaknesses.

Herself.

I'll have to think about that. My thought was that she actually found herself - she found the strength to do what she had to do at a colossal cost. But that's maybe just playing with the semantics.

[ceruleancat.livejournal.com]

[Poor Rupert] - nods emphatically.

[I thought Giles was not aware of Spike's role, least of all Spike's motives or strategy. Does Buffy ever tell Giles about it? I would understand why not, if she didn't.]

But the only one who can tell what role he played while Rupert was being tortured is Spike himself, and I can't see when he might have. At least I don't recall anything along those lines.

[My thought was that she actually found herself] - To some extent, but a. she didn't include that among the assets she had to lose while talking to Whistler, and after, it was exactly what she wanted to lose.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the only one who can tell what role he played while Rupert was being tortured is Spike himself,

Yes, and he didn't, at least as far as I've watched - certainly he didn't let Giles know his role at the time. I was thinking that Buffy might have, long after it all happened, told Giles about her deal with Spike - but I don't know that she did. And I really think, under the circumstances, it's more likely she didn't. She had a hard enough time (and took long enough) to tell them that Angel got his soul back before she killed him.