Loneliness...

[fajrdrako]

Loneliness is the poverty of self; solitude is the richness of self. - May Sarton

I have a lot of trouble with these concepts. I'm an intoverted person who loves doing solitary things; I'm also a person who craves company. How to find a balance? I wish I knew.

And loneliness, of course, is a much more complex thing than just being alone or not being alone.

Comments

[threeringedmoon.livejournal.com]

I think solitude is having the choice.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think it would be nice to have that choice.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Did you mean May Sarton?

I am off-every-chart-introverted by every test I've ever taken. It's real work for me to be social in realtime. Thank gods for the Internet, is what I say.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes - May Sarton, that's who I meant. (Blush.)

Thank gods for the Internet, is what I say.

For slightly different reasons - I second that motion!

[josanpq.livejournal.com]

Then there's aloneness, which gives one the reputation of being antisocial or just plain weird -- which is not the same as loneliness, or solitude.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Hi! You may want to look for a book called Party of One.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What's that about?

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

It's by someone who enjoys going out for dinner alone, and to movies alone, and doing various things alone, and who has a great deal of insight into the current American culture's -- well, basically the pathologizing of the person who enjoys solitude, enjoys being by herself. For instance, when a news story uses the word "loner," is it usually about someone they want you to consider to be well-adjusted in society?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

when a news story uses the word "loner," is it usually about someone they want you to consider to be well-adjusted in society?

Well, sometimes. Depends on context. I think your culture pathologizes the notion of the 'loner' somewhat, but also extolls it - the lone cowboy, the isolated private eye, all sorts of archetypes. Like so many things, it's confused. But I'd say that 'the loner' in US culture is a positive and heroic archetype in a way it has never been in other cultures that I'm familiar with.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. True, also: all the examples you mention are in the book, before the author goes on to talk about the much-more-common pathologized "loner" image.

You're saying that other cultures don't have "noble lone hero" images? No Superman, no Daredevil?

Anyway, even though there is that deep-rooted American "heroic loner" ideal, any time I hear someone say that someone else is a loner, it's just about always to point out that there's something wrong with that person. As you say -- it's confused. Very interesting, yes, very.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You're saying that other cultures don't have "noble lone hero" images?

Can you think of one?

No Superman, no Daredevil?

They seem very, very American to me, in many ways. But not loners either. Daredevil is sometimes a loner, but he has a close supporting cast. Superman is not a loner: he's always associated with certain others, like Lois Lane, Lex Luthor, Jimmy Olson.

It depends what parameters you're using. They have 'noble hero' images but I can't think of any that are associated with a loner image as part of the literary package. Um... the Wandering Jew? He isn't a hero, exactly.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Well... not off the top of my head. Wait, yes. Beowulf. And Tannheuser. And several others in Teutonic myth. And Theseus, and several in Greek myth. But in current culture?...nah.

I have always been captivated by the Wandering Jew character. And, yes, maybe this character has persisted so strongly just because the idea of a total loner is considered to be so unusual...?

It depends what parameters you're using. They have 'noble hero' images but I can't think of any that are associated with a loner image as part of the literary package.

Ah, but a person/hero can be a loner and still have associated characters. Superman has Jimmy and Lois, but does he tell them everything about himself? Does he sit and talk about the issues in his soul with them? Ah, no. Yes, depends on the parameters. Hm. This is quite intriguing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Beowulf

Beowulf wasn't a loner. He was the leader of the Geats, allied with Hrothgar. He didn't come alone, but in a boatload of men - sepcifically, his men. A war-leader is not a loner. I don't know about Tannheuser. Theseus? He married Ariadne, didn't he?

In any case, loner heroes are rare in my experience - except in American culture.

Yes, the Wandering Jew is fascinating.

a person/hero can be a loner and still have associated characters

That isn't the kind of hero I was thinking of. That's a different topic. The kind of loner I'm thinking of is the one without spouse, sidekick, ally or followers - who may form a strong connection in the course of the story, but who must leave at the end. (Or perhaps people die. Or perhaps he dies.)

By your definition (semi-loner?) I think of Batman as the classic example. Very complete in himself, very introverted and self-contained, and yet he has a whole support system of people he deeply loves - Commissioner Gordon, whoever happens to be Robin, Alfred, Oracle, and so on.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Beowulf wasn't a loner. ... In any case, loner heroes are rare in my experience - except in American culture.

I was thinking of how Beowulf could, at the last, trust only his own prowess and his own concil. "Loner" behavior/attitude, that.

But the thing is, you've brought a fascinating concept to my mind. Two aspects to it. Is this why Doctor Who always has to have a Companion? ...And, is this why Captain Jack Harkness is supposedly an American? (I'm thinking of his famous stances atop tall buildings, being remote and unreadable.)

Oh, and speaking of Firefly characters... which we were... when will someone write the Doctor/Companion story featuring Inarra, hm?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I was thinking of how Beowulf could, at the last, trust only his own prowess and his own concil. "Loner" behavior/attitude, that.

But in terms of archetypes, he was a leader - leader of the Geats, best of the Geats, champion of the Geats, and so on. Indivisible from his men, even though he does great acts of prowess singlehandedly. You can't take Beowulf out of that company of men without radically changing him.

Is this why Doctor Who always has to have a Companion?

I'd say 'yes', but that's probably oversimplifying. The point is made over and over (at least in the New Who) that the Doctor needs a companion, that he suffers badly from loneliness, he doesn't like or want to be alone - and this is overshadowed by a fear/implication that, as the last Time Lord, he is always alone, always seeking a companionship he won't really find - except he does find it, over and over, in different ways. So. Typical of Doctor Who to be centred on a psychological paradox.

And, is this why Captain Jack Harkness is supposedly an American? (I'm thinking of his famous stances atop tall buildings, being remote and unreadable.)

I think making Captain Jack a putative American (which of course he isn't really) is to give him a bit of the mystique of the outsider coupled with a cover story - if he acts a little strange, people who don't look too closely can think it's because he's American and not question further.

And it's also (thematically) the superhero/cowboy thing, which Captain Jack plays on rather heavily. In one of the books there's even a line about his coat billowing behind him like a superhero's cloak.

when will someone write the Doctor/Companion story featuring Inarra, hm?

I suspect it's been done, but I haven't actually read any Firefly/Doctor Who crossovers except the one I wrote. (Which was of course really a Torchwood crossover, being about Captain Jack, though it was pre-Torchwood.) But I know there are a lot of such crossovers out there. Did you ever see the series of pictures someone did comparing the shows? It was hilarious, and clever, and true.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, that too.

And there's being alone as a philosophical or spiritual statement, or as a lifestyle choice. I know someone who went to live alone in a remote log cabin in the Yukon. By choice. I wouldn't do that! But it was a great choice for her.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

I am the same way - very introverted and love my time alone, but I also miss people. My biggest problem is getting myself to get OUT to see people; once I do, I rarely regret it. The problem is that I can be just as happy alone. :) And also that I interact with people so much on my job, it's hard for me to want to do it sometimes on my time off (even though I know it is a different kind of social interaction).

I do hope eventually we can break the stereotypes of 'loneliness' when it comes to being on your own. We all experience periods of loneliness, whether alone or not, but it seems those who choose to be single (or rather, on their own), even only for periods of their life, are pitied for it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

very introverted and love my time alone, but I also miss people

Yes, that's the way of it.

it seems those who choose to be single (or rather, on their own), even only for periods of their life, are pitied for it.

I don't feel pitied. At the same time, I don't feel that I chose to live alone or be single - it's just the way things turned out. In some ways this is probably good for me; in others, not.

So my option is to make the best of it, and I do. But I have mixed feelings.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you don't feel pitied. I have felt so, or at least I've felt that people assumed I was lonely simply because I was alone.

I have chosen to be alone at times, and to be single. I know we don't always choose that.

I think there's mixed feelings to be had at all perspectives of life, living alone or living w/ another person, don't you think? Loneliness can obviously be found in any living arrangement.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've felt that people assumed I was lonely simply because I was alone.

I suspect that by the time you're my age, people assume that the lifestyle you have is the one you want. And that's at least partially true, but it's also a matter of what life hands you.

Loneliness can obviously be found in any living arrangement.

And frankly, loneliness, even the most painful and bitterest loneliness, is preferable to a bad relationship.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I feel that some of it comes down to the way a person puts a deeply significant insight into words... different people can of course be moved differently by extremely similar circumstances/experiences.

Here's a related thought: is intimacy between two people something that precludes or forbids either of them having full privacy? Of course not. It is just as intimate to sit in one room while your loved one is busy in another, feeling the companionable closeness, as it is to relax side by side watching a movie without saying a word, no? And it is all too possible to sit in one room while your partner is busy in another, and forgets that you are even in the house with them... this is loneliness. The other is solitude. At least, that's one thought on it.

Yes, loneliness is much more complex than just being alone or not being alone. You have said to me that loneliness is the worst thing in the world, and I'd basically agree; however, I've found something just as horrible: being denied solitude.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Raising the question of 'intimacy' is a whole different issue.

Most people can find balances between solitude and being denied solitude, and a lot of it depends on choice, and duration.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I've found the one thing that consistently ended many of my relationships was 'being denied solitude.' At least, I felt my solitude was being threatened. Being introverted mean I gain energy from being alone; this is sometimes difficult in a relationship, esp. with someone who doesn't operate this way.

This pattern has led me to wonder if I favor solitude so much that intimate relationships by definition are not a long term choice for me. I dunno.

So I suppose I risk the possibility of loneliness. At least alone, I can chose to go out and see people, as opposed to living w/ someone where I feel I can not get away.

This might change w/ age and lifestyle change.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

This pattern has led me to wonder if I favor solitude so much that intimate relationships by definition are not a long term choice for me.

I've wondered that too. But... on the whole... my problem has been the opposite. Obviously I am adaptable.

[colliemommie.livejournal.com]

I'm lucky to have found someone who also needs x amount of "alone time" to be happy and grounded. We've found that sometimes just sitting in the same room satisfies this need; other times we need more physical distance. But I sympathize with how difficult it can be to try and have a relationship with someone who sees solitude, not as a requirement for mental health, but as an avoidance.

I don't know if living alone necessarily puts you at a greater risk for loneliness. Most of the lonely people I know live with others...loneliness often seems to be a result of not feeling listened to or understood, a lack of connection, rather than a lack of proximity.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't know if living alone necessarily puts you at a greater risk for loneliness. Most of the lonely people I know live with others...

This is very true, and something I often have to remind myself about.

loneliness often seems to be a result of not feeling listened to or understood, a lack of connection

Or not being valued.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I mentioned intimacy because the two concepts are connected in my mind, thanks to previous discussions that made deep impressions... well, actually, it was one discussion, it was in a class full of people half my age, and the idea that "intimacy" could continue when people also were allowed full solitude was a new concept for some of them, and some others of us had our hands full defending the idea. So, the two are connected in my mind, interestingly enough.

Ah, I wish for some solitude right now!...both rooms, the outer "chat at will" one and the back "quiet room" one, are occupied by talkers. Feh. and I have only half an hour or so to spend here, but my concentration is already blown.

Back to the notions in question.... Don't you think that some people are afraid of solitude? I think it is something that each of us has to learn to value, each in our own time. Myself, I valued it when I was four!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Don't you think that some people are afraid of solitude?

I think it's the old different-strokes-for-different-folks things. Some people are afraid of solitude, some people are afraid of crowds, and every variation in between. I think it's very individual. Fear of solitude is probably more common than than not, seeing that if we are left alone in babyhood, we die without tending. So a need for others is innate and inescapable when we are young.

I valued it when I was four!

Yes, but you are extraordinary and unusual that way. You have to learn to cope with people - most people have to learn to cope without them.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Fear of solitude is probably more common than than not, seeing that if we are left alone in babyhood, we die without tending. So a need for others is innate and inescapable when we are young.

Ah. You link the concepts of needing not to have one's physical caring neglected, and needing to be allowed to be alone in one's own skull... on the other hand, I was pretty much going from the given that childhood neglect had not happened. Of course, the perception of neglect or abandonment can be key in how an individual later is able to deal with true solitude, I guess. Wow, this could become one sticky topic very fast!

You have to learn to cope with people - most people have to learn to cope without them.

I think I had an overload of people at a young age and am still trying to discharge all that in-taken energy [g]. But you make a good point about people having to learn to cope without other people. This seems very true. Some of us, on the other hand, have had a lifelong chore of finding out how to arrange that other people don't intrude on us when we want some peace and quiet! When I was an undergraduate, I found (to my total annoyance and chagrin) that the quickest way to get even more people talking at me at once was to tell several of them that I wanted to be left alone, please. Gad, such an irony.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You link the concepts of needing not to have one's physical caring neglected, and needing to be allowed to be alone in one's own skull...

Yes. I think these things are significantly linked. One's needs are not only physical.

I think the only way to be left alone is not to say you want to be left alone - just find somewhere you won't be found.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

One's needs are not only physical.

Yes. But at that point, people start to vary... everyone needs air, water, and food, but even with the last of those, people vary a great deal -- and so it is with contact with other humans. I know it might be perceived that I don't want a lot of human contact; however, the truth is that I experience more in a moment than NT people do, and so I can get filled up much faster. I think I need as much human contact as anyone else... it's just that I perceive things in concentrate form, instead of dilute! Gad. silly metaphor. Thinking orange juice, here.

I think the only way to be left alone is not to say you want to be left alone - just find somewhere you won't be found.

Ah! I was an expert at that, as a kid. And my older sister kept hunting me out and then telling on me for wanting to be by myself! She clearly thought it was not a proper kind of behavior.

Yeah. Just go, and find the place, and appreciate the solitude. Because that's simplest.

"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." Emerson

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I kind of like your orange juice metaphor. It made me thirsty.

"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."

Good quote. But then - I usually like Emerson.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I kind of like your orange juice metaphor. It made me thirsty.

You're brilliant and delightful. And you made me laugh. I loved that.

Emerson ... ah, such a subversive! One of the people I think of when I call myself (which I rarely do) an American.

I'm thinking of getting a bumper sticker for my car: Always Question "Authority." Think that will get me any more chats with cops, hm?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

One of the people I think of when I call myself (which I rarely do) an American.

There are many Americans I love and admire, and Emerson is one. Walt Whitman, too. I don't like 19th century American prose writers but there are some terrific poets.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I don't like 19th century American prose writers but there are some terrific poets.

I have been getting reacquainted with the prose writers of that era; Hawthorne has always intrigued me, as he comes across so non-linear in all his fiction ("The Lime-burner" is amazingly bizarre). Most of the prose of that era preoccupies itself with a cause of some sort, and as I've gotten more knowledge of the culture of the times, I've gotten more into the prose. I like that era of American history better than just about any other... except the 1920s, 30s, and 40s.

I know what I can put into Apaplexy. I just got a list of the top ten "offensive" books, as listed by amount of protest by bigots-- I mean, concerned adults regarding what's in children's libraries. I could do a page with that, eh?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like that era of American history better than just about any other... except the 1920s, 30s, and 40s.

Hee! Yes, I like those eras too. But literature... the first American novelist I like, I think, was Hemingway. Or Chandler, perhaps?

I just got a list of the top ten "offensive" books, as listed by amount of protest by bigots-- I mean, concerned adults regarding what's in children's libraries. I could do a page with that, eh?

That would be good. Make us all cringe! Though Joseph might like it.