Doctor Who: The Fires of Pompeii (4x02)
Apr. 12th, 2008 08:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
fajrdrakoI really liked James Moran's script for the series 2 Torchwood episode, "Sleeper". I hesitated to have high hopes for something similarly good with Doctor Who - but there were some bits that were exceptionally satisfying, that put that little chill up my back such as Doctor Who does at its best.
- There is something about seeing characters whose body parts - especially their arms - were turning to stone that gets to me. Because having one's body 'turning to stone' is often the way scleroderma is described - a disease I acquired in childhood. My left arm was affected rather like Evelina's - though I'm happy to say it never turned into real stone, or turned grey, or gave me the curse of prophecy. It just seems weird to see something happening to characters in a fantasy that echoes what happened to me.
- I loved it that the Prophecies referred to a future that wasn't going to happen - that was circumvented by the acts of the Doctor and the events of the episode. That really set up the sense of a turning point.
- Interesting that Donna thought she could evacuate the city - even if they would listen to her, doesn't she know the old dictum I learned in Superman comics of my childhood, that you can't change the past? But this set up an interesting exploration of what and who the Doctor can save and what and who he cannot. Of course, even when he does 'save' a situation, it can be a disaster - such as the events of "The Long Game" leading to a new Dalek invasion.
Moreover, why should anyone believe her?
Donna's attempts to help the Pompeians seemed both naive and brave. - There are moments when I don't like Donna and moments when I like her very much indeed. But she makes me miss Martha and even Rose.
- I loved the visual image of the priestesses putting their hands over their eyes with the eyes painted on their hands.
- When the Doctor called it "Volcano Day" I felt a pang of memory for Captain Jack, pulling off his con jobs in Pompeii as "Volcano Day" approaches. He must have just left. Is it true that the Romans did not have the world "volcanus" before Pomepeii erupted? They certainly had the concept; there are all sorts of volcanoes in the Mediterranean. The Greeks called it ηφαίστειο or ifaisteio - I bet the Etruscans had a word for it, too. It always bothers me etymologically when dictionaries act as if language began with Latin.
- I loved the visual effect of circuitry mixed up with Roman marbles.
- Attempts to explain the TARDIS' translation techniques were fun. I loved it that Doctor kept using Latin phrases and everyone kept thinking he was talking Celtic.
- Caecilius reminded me a little of Falco's father in the Lindsey Davis novels. He and his family didn't ring very true as ancient Romans, and where were the family slaves? But the anachronisms made for a certain amusement.
- Loved the oracles' references to Gallifrey, the Time Lord, the thing on Donna's back (what?), and the ominous "she is returning".
- Medusa Cascade? Should I understand that? There was a significant Medusa theme in The Sarah Jane Adventures> episode "The Eye of the Gorgon".
- I liked the Doctor more than I did in "Partners in Crime", I think, though it's still missing something I have come to expect and look for - probably because his rapport with Donna is quite unlike that with Rose or Martha or Astrid. I'm not complaining; I know I just have to live with it.
- I liked it Caecilius made the Doctor and Donna his household gods - yet another example of the deification of of our heroes.
I realize as I talk about it that I am more or less expecting not to particularly like series 4 - I'm already missing aspects of Doctor Who that existed in the past few years and are gone now. I'm like some sort of old fogey viewer, and really, it's only my fourth series. But in the first and second episodes of Doctor Who last year, I was just so excited about Martha and how much I loved her. It's quite a contrast in my reactions.
Part of it is that I am assured that the aspect I like most in the show - developing affection between Doctor and companion - cannot and will not happen; it's guaranteed to be static. So all I have left is the development of revelations about the Doctor's character and psychology. Is that enough to hold my interest? If it continues to be as well written as this episode from James Moran, yes, probably it is.
But I still have the sense of "my show" slipping away.
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no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 01:45 am (UTC)Series Four arc
Russell T. Davies hinted in Doctor Who Magazine that the next arc word for Doctor Who was something said by The Master in the final two episodes of Series 3 - The Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords. [11] He has since stated that there is no specific arc word, but each episode of series four will have an element of the arc theme, which will carry through to the finale.
Indeed, the Medusa Cascade is mentioned again in the second episode "The Fires of Pompeii".
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Date: 2008-04-13 01:51 am (UTC)This is both fascinating and perplexing. I have to admit I really have no idea what he's talking about - but it will be fun to find out. A developing theme that is not exemplified by a code word... something cumulative. Ah well. It will be fun to look for themes, and to look at themes. Developing themes is one of the things this show does very, very well.
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Date: 2008-04-13 01:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 01:58 am (UTC)There's a sense of thematic complexity to the idea that I love.
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Date: 2008-04-13 03:03 am (UTC)- some fans have taken this as a reference to Planet of the Spiders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_the_Spiders), the 3rd Doctor's final appearance. Um, the spiders in question controlled people while sitting on their backs. Something to do with the Rackoss, maybe?
Overall, excellent episode, very fun (even if the villains were sort of underwhelming). And the whole "Positions!" bit with the Roman family reminded me of Mary Poppins. ♥
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Date: 2008-04-13 03:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 03:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 03:12 am (UTC)Woo, interesting. And plausible. Maybe some of those spider-babies survived the events of "The Runaway Bride"?
very fun (even if the villains were sort of underwhelming)
Yeah. They made me think of 1960s comics, some visuals of Jack Kirby drawings, but I can't quite place it. Some of the Mole Man's acolytes, maybe?
And the whole "Positions!" bit with the Roman family reminded me of Mary Poppins. ♥
I never even thought of that - but of course! I'd forgotten that entirely. Cute.
Season / Series arc
Date: 2008-04-13 05:01 am (UTC)Someone above mentioned the Master talking about the Medusa Cascade, so that's covered. "She is returning" I'm going to assume refers to Rose, and "there is something on your back" I'm going to assume we'll find out later this season.
I also think much of what Donna referred to on the rooftop in 4x1 is going to have meaning this season -- the things she went and checked out while looking for the Doctor.
Re: Season / Series arc
Date: 2008-04-13 03:02 pm (UTC)Very good point! Losing a planet - an inhabited planet at that - can't be an everyday occurrance.
So either they're the same planet, or something's stealing planets.
Well - there are other possibilities, though those are two biggies. A planetary Rift in space and time? Formation of a new dimension with old races, either deliberate or otherwise? The consequence of something the Doctor did when he inadvertently changed history somewhere down the line?
I wonder if Torchwood 4 is with them!
I also think much of what Donna referred to on the rooftop in 4x1 is going to have meaning this season -- the things she went and checked out while looking for the Doctor.
I would like to think so.
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Date: 2008-04-13 08:33 am (UTC)There were one or two nice Celtic in-jokes too - "There's lovely" is a very South Wales phrase. Though Donna's Latin accent was so vile that anyone could have been excused for not understanding. One lovely touch is that the family - Caecilius etc - were named after the family in the Cambridge Latin course, which is the most widely-used textbook in schools which still teach Latin. In the text-book the family lives in Pompeii too!
There were deliberate references to
Caecilius reminded me a little of Falco's father in the Lindsey Davis novels. He and his family didn't ring very true as ancient Romans, and where were the family slaves? But the anachronisms made for a certain amusement.
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Date: 2008-04-13 02:04 pm (UTC)Is it? I missed that one entirely.
hough Donna's Latin accent was so vile that anyone could have been excused for not understanding.
True!
One lovely touch is that the family - Caecilius etc - were named after the family in the Cambridge Latin course, which is the most widely-used textbook in schools which still teach Latin.
Oh, that's perfect! I haven't seen the Cambridge Latin course, though I'm told it's good. I learned Latin with "Latin for Canadian Schools" - would have to scour my brain for the names of the recurring characters. I do have my text book around somewhere.
Apparently RTD was very enthusiastic about having Astérix-style jokes and references in it too. Not sure I wholly approve, because of the risk of trivialising the storyline
Good point: I'm not sure whether the comedy and the action fit well together. Except for some lovely moments of intensity, it had a light tone that didn't lead one to take it seriously - all the worse because of the lava men and circuitry/TARIS 'art'; again I had the feel that this was being plotted for the kids, not the adults of the audience.
But the anachronisms made for a certain amusement.
Overall, the story was fun.
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Date: 2008-04-13 03:26 pm (UTC)Yes - that was one of the Romans translating backwards from something the Doc said in Latin. The other one was when the Doc said "Ipso facto" and Caecilius took a moment to translate in his head, and said "...Look you..." - another Welsh phrase.
Well - there are other possibilities, though those are two biggies. A planetary Rift in space and time?
Possibly, since that's what The Master was referring to at The Medusa Cascade -- that The Doctor had sealed The Rift there.
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Date: 2008-04-13 03:31 pm (UTC)I find that most endearing.
That's what The Master was referring to at The Medusa Cascade -- that The Doctor had sealed The Rift there.
Yes. And 'cascade' is an interesting word to use there - implying something that, once set in motion, continues or accelerates its effect. Makes me think of the Doctor flipping the cards so they fly all over the place, back in "Rose".
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Date: 2008-04-13 10:26 pm (UTC)Is it? I missed that one entirely.
There were two or three Welsh accent asides after Latin tags - there was another after the Doctor said "status quo" too.
My younger daughter watched it with me this afternoon and got quite excited when she realised Quintus filius Caecilii est!
again I had the feel that this was being plotted for the kids, not the adults of the audience.
Yes, I felt that too. Apart from Donna's insistence that these were real people who were going to die there was rather a lot of flippancy, I felt.
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Date: 2008-04-14 12:44 am (UTC)I watched it this afternoon with a friend who'd used that text, and she recognized the family right off.
Apart from Donna's insistence that these were real people who were going to die there was rather a lot of flippancy, I felt.
Yes. Of course I liked the serious bits, but so much of it was light in tone - shooting the Lava Men with a water pistol, for example.
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Date: 2008-04-13 03:50 pm (UTC)it had a light tone that didn't lead one to take it seriously
I have the feeling I wasn't watching the same episode as you! I came away thinking "wow, that got seriously dark". I can't describe any episode where our heroes choose to kill 20,000 people (albeit to save the world) and the main character walks past a family cowering in fear and begging for help and then leaves them to die as being light in tone.
I loved it that the Prophecies referred to a future that wasn't going to happen - that was circumvented by the acts of the Doctor and the events of the episode
Ah, but the prophecy in the Sybilline books turned out to be correct. The blue box came and there was destruction. I thought that was neat.
Is it true that the Romans did not have the world "volcanus" before Pomepeii erupted? They certainly had the concept; there are all sorts of volcanoes in the Mediterranean.
I think that was bogus. From what I remember, the Pompeiians knew perfectly well Vesuvius was a volcano, they just didn't think an eruption would happen to them. Whether they had a specific word for volcano I don't know, but I find it hard to believe there wouldn't be one.
his rapport with Donna is quite unlike that with Rose or Martha or Astrid
I'm finding that one of the most interesting things so far. I think it's because of how they all met the Doctor. Donna saw a much darker and more alien being from the start and so probably has a more realistic idea of what she is choosing in going with him. Rose got a stranger who saved her life and intrigued her with a larger mystery and excitement, Martha got a flirt who charmed and kissed her and neither of them got to see him as the ruthless non-human until later on. Astrid got a hero who promised to save them and never got to see anything else. Donna is starting off on a completely different footing from all of them.
I am assured that the aspect I like most in the show - developing affection between Doctor and companion - cannot and will not happen; it's guaranteed to be static
Well they've said Donna won't fall in love with the Doctor (which personally I think is a good thing), but that doesn't preclude them developing affection and connection.
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Date: 2008-04-13 04:17 pm (UTC)I had a very similar series of conversations about "Partners in Crime" when I said it was 'light in tone'. 'Light in tone' is maybe not the right phase but I can't think of a better one. Yes, the subject matter was dark, the material was serious, and the life/death discussions were fascinating, but I still think the overall tone of the episode was light - the family of Caecilius being like a family out of a sitcom, the villains being like Jack Kirby Lava Men, and the number of linguistic (and other jokes) being greater by far than the serious moral/philosophical considerations.
Needless to say, I love it that they'd touched on dark subjects and I wish they'd done so more - I'd have liked a darker tone whether the material were lighter or not.
Keep in mind too that I watched it right after watching Battlestar Galactica. Comparitively, it barely registers as 'dark' in tone even though the subject matter - death of a population - was really quite similar.
Repeating your comment - I can't describe any episode where our heroes choose to kill 20,000 people (albeit to save the world) and the main character walks past a family cowering in fear and begging for help and then leaves them to die as being light in tone. - I can see that as the basis of a silly black comedy, and still being light in tone. A Monty Python theme, perhaps? It wasn't a silly black comedy here, it was a serious theme in a story whose underpinnings were both frivolous and serious. For me, the balance isn't quite right at the moment - possibly because I can only take Ten seriously about half the time.
but the prophecy in the Sybilline books turned out to be correct. The blue box came and there was destruction. I thought that was neat.
I thought so too.
From what I remember, the Pompeiians knew perfectly well Vesuvius was a volcano, they just didn't think an eruption would happen to them.
Yes, that was what I thought, too. (Vesuvius had, after all, erupted before.) Loved the reference to San Francisco. People do take chances because, when you look carefully, there aren't really many 'safe' places and we cope as best we can with the dangers and potential dangers.
Donna saw a much darker and more alien being from the start and so probably has a more realistic idea of what she is choosing in going with him.
That, I like. I'm doing my best to adjust to the changes but I can't help thinking "it isn't the same".
they've said Donna won't fall in love with the Doctor (which personally I think is a good thing), but that doesn't preclude them developing affection and connection.
I don't know what to expect or hope; I find the ... how to express this; I find the lack of open-endedness of the relationship depressing. Not that I want Donna to fall in love with the Doctor, more that I don't want it all to be pre-determined, and I don't like the idea that 'love' is pre-defined along certain lines. Considering that I'm having trouble relating to Donna at all, the one thing that I have loved about the show - affection and trust between Doctor and companion that is not defined in any conventional way - seems to be precluded.
Let me put it another way: I find it hard to believe that Donna can or will develop into the kind of world-saving hero that Rose became and that Martha was. The fact that she was willing to die for the Pompeians was wonderful, of course, and that's a good place to start. As is her sense of curiosity and wonder. Donna has already made great strides since "The Runaway Bride", in which she seemed to have little real curiosity at all, so I shouldn't be too depressed about this.
I really shouldn't. But I find I've sort of ... lost some of the faith I had somewhere over the past two episodes. Maybe it's just my sore foot having its effect.
no subject
Date: 2008-04-13 07:33 pm (UTC)As with HRG and Claire, affection as commonly defined in these stories is not in the cards. HRG and Claire could be together that way if they were willing to ignore the technical incest and adultery issues, just as the Doctor and his Companions could be more open with each other, but for the psychological hurdles they face. But that's okay, because the love is still there, still necessary, still karmic, still forever.
Btw, Check these out...
Doctor Who: The Commentaries
The Doctor Who cast and crew discuss episode 2 of the TV series, The Fires of Pompeii. Episode 2 of 13.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/listenagain/sunday/
DT visits Pompeii:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hLnP28ycmZg
no subject
Date: 2008-04-14 01:20 am (UTC)Hmm... okay.
Like HRG, the Doctor is also the height of morally gray in a universe that routinely hands people shit along with diamonds. The Companions, like Claire, react to the shit the way they do, because they want diamonds. The Doctor, like HRG, takes and occasionally makes the shit, because he wants diamonds for them, too.
So far, I really like the analogy.
the Doctor and his Companions could be more open with each other, but for the psychological hurdles they face. But that's okay, because the love is still there, still necessary, still karmic, still forever.
If that is true, I'd be very happy with it. But it's not the impression I got from the original statements. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Thank you so much for the commentaries links!
no subject
Date: 2008-04-14 01:33 am (UTC)Perhaps, I used the wrong analogy. Perhaps, my mistake was using an analogy at all. Perhaps, this is one of those Classic Who vs. New Who conundrums that I should just let go of. I'll let you know if I come up with a better/different way of expressing the issue.
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Date: 2008-04-14 01:39 am (UTC)Yes. I'm content to take it as it comes - whatever 'it' may be - and see what I think. Perhaps I shouldn't pay so much attention to the commentaries I hear.
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Date: 2008-04-14 01:56 am (UTC)I sometimes think we'd be better off once the holodeck is invented. Then, we could pay for universes and fans could all do what they wanted. Then, there would be no more dissonance.
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Date: 2008-04-14 06:21 pm (UTC)One must. With RTD more than most, because he does change his mind with a fair regularity. And he tends to overstate... I think he is a master at pr, and of course his commentaries are meant to fan enthusiasm, curiosity, anticipation and controversy about his show. So... entertaining but not always reliable.
they don't always mesh with the show going on in my head.
That also is true. Sometimes they say "we did this, for this reason" and I think: "No, they didn't. Weren't they paying attention to their own story?"
I sometimes think we'd be better off once the holodeck is invented. Then, we could pay for universes and fans could all do what they wanted.
Wouldn't that be fun? Meanwhile, we have fanfic to read and write and play with.
ans could all do what they wanted. Then, there would be no more dissonance.
Utopian thought, there - ! I bet people would still find a way to get ship wars.
DW Confidential -- Pompeii
Date: 2008-04-19 10:39 pm (UTC)http://www.veoh.com/search.html?type=&searchId=5167607479326559232&search=Doctor+Who+Confidential+Season+4+Episode+2
Re: DW Confidential -- Pompeii
Date: 2008-04-19 11:45 pm (UTC)DW Site Updated
Date: 2008-04-14 08:47 pm (UTC)http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/
Re: DW Site Updated
Date: 2008-04-15 12:50 am (UTC)I'm glad they're showing video I can watch again.