Torchwood: Exit Wounds (2x13)

[fajrdrako]

I can't write much but I at least want to say something about Torchwood now rather than later.

I watched Torchwood at 7 a.m. yesterday, staying awake through the whole thing despite the painkillers I'm taking for my broken foot. They make it hard to stay awake for a whole hour at a time. The interesting story helped.

About which I can think of many things to say, the first being: aieeeaii. "Aieeeaii" in a good way.

Two significant aspects are things I thought I'd never see on TV. They totally floored me they were so unexpected and brilliant. But First, the part I thought was odd, and this was maybe because of the pain pills and my less-than-normal powers of concentration or following a story, but it felt as if it started out as one story and then became another completely different story.

The story it looked as if it would be: confrontation between Captain Jack Harkness and his old lover/enemy, Captain John Hart, holding Cardiff hostage in their battle. (A straight parallel with the Doctor/Master situation in "The Last of the Time Lords".)

The story it became: Grey's vendetta against Captain Jack, with the Torchwood Team heroically saving Cardiff and paying the necessary prices.

Captain John really didn't have anything much to do with it at all. Which in a way was a pity, because he's such a good character, but in a way... it's good because it leaves him free for later stories. Oh, I hope!

What I most loved? Penance. I was floored. Because in any other story we'd be thinking and saying, "what happened to Grey wasn't Jack's fault", and I was thinking that, weren't you? But Jack saw right through all that as a smokescreen: it didn't matter whether it was his fault or not, that wasn't the point, the point was taking responsibility, and he took it without hesitation. Two thousand years of penance. An act of expiation all the more remarkable in its spiritual extremity.

And yes, we've seen Jack paying for his various sins over and over. The sin of almost killing mankind in "The Empty Child". The sin of being a con man. The sin of his friend's torture and death, the sin of letting go of Grey's hand, and so on. The redemption theme. And Jack has paid the price over and over: dying for the Doctor in "The Parting of the Ways", dying for mankind in "End of Days", and so on. Just as the Doctor in Doctor Who series one had his own redemption story: he killed his own race (and symbolically his past) in order to destroy the Daleks, and then offered his race, himself, Jack, mankind and the future as sacrifice in "The Parting of the Ways".

I love redemption themes.

This totally took me by surprise: that Jack's triumph came not by fighting Grey, but capitulating to him, forgiving him, loving him, and essentially putting another 'mercy killing' to Torchwood's credit.

As heroic figures go, Jack's is not so much the obvious contemporary superhero or action hero - he's a medieval martyr. It has nothing to do with justice or even atonement, because the wrongdoing was not his own - but in a mystical sense, there was a spiritual price to pay.

So: who'd've thought Jack could outdo his messiah resurrection act from last season? But he did. Wow.

I am so impressed. It's just a whole different level of emotional perception and thought than I've ever seen on any TV show - even Doctor Who. And all part of a plot that was a bit of a mess, or at least confusing, or maybe that was just because of my pain pills....

The other thing I loved: that it ends with Jack holding, loving, both Gwen and Ianto. Appeals so much to the romantic in me.

...So maybe PC Andy and Rhys will actually join Torchwood now there are places vacant? Though what they seem to need are a technical genius and a superlative doctor. I could choose Martha for the second role.

Dare I hope that Captain John will return to Torchwood, since he seems to be in no hurry to leave the present time? and he still loves Jack? I am now completely confused by his story: was what we saw in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" all an act set up by Grey? Is John really crazy and homicidal? The events in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" make perfect sense if you assume Grey was forcing John to do everything he did and John was trying to sabotage Grey - even to the point of John trying to kill Jack as another mercy killing to keep him out of Grey's vengeful hands, and in saving the Torchwood Team when he could have killed them.

I am not convinced. It could be that John was crazy and on drugs, and was cured somewhere along the way. It could be that I missed some story point. I'd like to know. As it was, his departure was somewhat ... anticlimatic. And enigmatic. I couldn't read Jack's attitude to him at the end: anger? forgiveness? mistrust? indifference? Whatever it is or was, it's clear John is not, like Gwen and Ianto, in the charmed circle of those Jack loves.

I thought there was no structure to this story, and not much coherence, but it was powerful - and so much better put together than "End of Days". How many times has Jack lived through 1941 now?

Whose exit wounds does the title refer to?

Oh, dear, I should say something about Toshiko and Owen. I'm not sure what to say. I liked their deaths. Toshiko brave (physically, emotionally and spiritually), Owen redeeming himself with both kindness and courage. I'm glad Owen is gone, frankly, because I don't know where I'd want them to go with the character. In series 1, I didn't like him, but he had fascinating character development and was always interesting. In series 2, though I sometimes liked him and sometimes hated him, his character was all over the place - from mild-mannered dweeb to smart-ass to dead guy to heartbroken fiancé and respectable doctor - never settling on one thing.

Gwen: superb. At her best, or at least, the way I like her best. Glimpses of what she could be. Loved it when she asked Rhys to marry her again. And loved Rhys... He used to be the perfect boyfriend. Now he's the perfect husband.


I love it that they're not doing the obvious.

Comments

[jwaneeta.livejournal.com]

As heroic figures go, Jack's is not so much the obvious contemporary superhero or action hero - he's a medieval martyr. It has nothing to do with justice or even atonement, because the wrongdoing was not his own - but in a mystical sense, there was a spiritual price to pay.


I loved that. I'm still bemused/ticked off about... other things, but I love that Jack's heroic mold is so unique and lofty, especially since, superficially, he's just another door-kicking action guy.

And I love that Jack's superpower is forgiveness. That's something they introduce right at the starting gun in S1, abd they've been loyal to that theme. It puts clear blue water between Jack and pretty much everybody else in the world-saving game, including the Doctor. I forgive you, I forgive you... it's, like, his prasad. And this time he got to ask for forgiveness in addition to offering it to all and sundry, so that was nifty.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm still bemused/ticked off about... other things

Hee - and will I find out if/when I go to your LJ? Damn, I hate this being too enfeebled to sit up reading things - I'm dying to leap into the middle of Torchwood discussions and just can't. Ah well. I'm sure it won't all go away in the next few days.

I love that Jack's heroic mold is so unique and lofty, especially since, superficially, he's just another door-kicking action guy.

And he's played up that way in the publicity: action hero with guns, gets to kiss the guys and the girls and act tough - has a shady con-man past, besides the omnisexuality angle. And then he's a sort of demi-saint, a spiritual superman.

I love that Jack's superpower is forgiveness.

I do too - what a terrific variation on the paradigms. And they just sort of sneak it in. One minute he's a smart-ass with a gun fighting Zombies and the next - destroying all the clichés.

it's, like, his prasad.

Yes, exactly! And he's still saving the 21st century from whatever's changing, but he's something else as well.

this time he got to ask for forgiveness in addition to offering it to all and sundry, so that was nifty.

Yes. I loved that.

[abrakadabrah.livejournal.com]

So: who'd've thought Jack could outdo his messiah resurrection act from last season? But he did. Wow.

I am so impressed. It's just a whole different level of emotional perception and thought than I've ever seen on any TV show - even Doctor Who.

Just wait til you get to late seasons BTVS. Redemption themes plus platonic symbolism - it's like nothing that's ever been on tv. You're going to love it.

I figured for sure that they left open Captain John for him to reappear next year - seems a cinch, also the bit about Rhys and Andy, though, as you say, they'll need some other kind of staff as well. Though Torchwood does seem to strentch people's abilities more than other jobs so that they sprout talents they didn't know were in them.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

ust wait til you get to late seasons BTVS. Redemption themes plus platonic symbolism -

Very cool. I look forward to that.

I figured for sure that they left open Captain John for him to reappear next year -

Yes. Good. Excellent. They also left his storyline wide open. Even his characterization.

also the bit about Rhys and Andy

They've been good from the beginning, but I didn't expect the wonderful rivalry and banter between them. This is a treat.

[liliaeth]

As heroic figures go, Jack's is not so much the obvious contemporary superhero or action hero - he's a medieval martyr. It has nothing to do with justice or even atonement, because the wrongdoing was not his own - but in a mystical sense, there was a spiritual price to pay.

So: who'd've thought Jack could outdo his messiah resurrection act from last season? But he did. Wow.

I agree, and one more thing, it sets him up for becmoing the wise creature that the Face of Boe was. It's like he's growing into the wise one, kinda like a Gandalf figure, instead of going the hero's journey. If that makes any sense. As if we've already seen him grow into the hero and now he's going beyond that, which is a rare thing in contemporary television.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

one more thing, it sets him up for becmoing the wise creature that the Face of Boe was.

Yes. The Face of Boe is odd - didn't have much of a personality in series 1, but wasn't forgotten, either. Was treated as - what, a joke, an icon? And then in series 3, was more and more of a wise/warm figure or mythic proportions, a truth-sayer and 'friend'. Interesting metamorphosis of nuance.

It's like he's growing into the wise one, kinda like a Gandalf figure, instead of going the hero's journey.

True, isn't it? Especially since Gandalf was an almost-not-quite human figure, put on Earth, killed and fell to earth again - lots of levels in his symbology. Perhaps a mage's journey, rather than a hero's journey?

As if we've already seen him grow into the hero and now he's going beyond that, which is a rare thing in contemporary television.

We've seen his origins as less-than-hero (i.e., con man, drunk) and just about ever level on the ladder towards sainthood - but sainthood seems too simple a term, because its meaning is wrong. For one thing, a saint is traditionally a person that god uses for a purpose, and there is no god in Jack's world, unless you are using the Doctor's symbology here as the Lonely God, and Jack as his servant. Which sort of works - surprisingly well.

What an amazing character.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Oh phew, you liked it. There seem to be many people out there who didn't, and I've seen a few comments that loathed the martyr/messianic Jack. It's nice to read someone who liked that bit.

I'm not sure how I think about it myself as I don't make that kind of parallel until someone else points it out - I'm usually trying to think out how it would work. But your explanation of the penance concept makes it make more sense to me and I like the idea of Jack having medieval attitudes in a way despite being from so far in the future. I admit I think the tactically sound ending would have been to kill Gray, but I can also see why Jack can't.

My explanation for how it worked is that Jack really didn't die that often. I figure once he'd used up all the air available, there would be none to get to his brain when he revived so he probably wouldn't regain consciousness after the first one or two. So he spent the two thousand years hanging around in the dark on the other side, and it's entirely possible time passed differently there - that's the only way I can explain why he didn't go utterly insane!

I liked how they twisted the expectation so that it wasn't John driving the action like everyone had assumed it would be. I think that in KKBB, John was acting on his own volition though - I've been trying to remember if we ever saw his right wrist in that, but even so I think he was genuinely messed up and out of control and following his own selfish ends in it. My own theory is that John rescued Gray before KKBB, lapped up playing the hero for a bit and then they split up while John was pursuing his own goals (presumably Gray was looking for Jack). John met up with Gray again after KKBB, probably so he could gloat about having one up on Jack still, then let slip he'd run into Jack - at which point Gray went postal and John realised he was in very deep shit and had to reevaluate some things, like how far he would really go and how he did feel about Jack.

Jack's attitude to John at the end is interesting. I think he probably still doesn't want him around but I think he is grateful and likely trusts him a little more - just not enough to want him to stay. They've definitely left it open for a return though, and that is cool.

All I have to say about Toshiko and Owen is that I cried my eyes out and between them Naoko and Burn broke my heart. *sniff* I was expecting one of them to die, but I never thought they'd have the nerve to kill them both off at once so it was a real shock.

part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh phew, you liked it.

I certainly did. Liked it much more than "End of Days", for example, though there were things about "End of Days" that I liked very much.

There seem to be many people out there who didn't

I wondered if that would be the case. I suspect the Tosh and Owen lovers (or the Tosh/Owen lovers) didn't like what happened with them. I am a Tosh lover, and was not unhappy with her fate. But it does make me want to write some Tosh-based fic - or at least finish the stories I'm already working on.

I've seen a few comments that loathed the martyr/messianic Jack.

I totally adored that. In "End of Days" it didn't work as well for me - it seemed more of a joke or a game - admittedly the kind of game I like to play, but what's the fun if the people writing it don't take it seriously? In this case, I thought they really were getting the point, and making a point, and it's one seldom made in literature of our century. So I loved it.

But your explanation of the penance concept makes it make more sense to me and I like the idea of Jack having medieval attitudes in a way despite being from so far in the future.

We really don't know much about the 51st century and I like it that our view of it is so sketchy. What we know about it doesn't add up, but of course it doesn't - if we only knew a handful of facts about 2008, how would we make sense even of our own countries, let alone the whole planet, or a universe full of planets? But traditionally the ideas of 'what the future will be like' in science fiction is to either make it 'futuristic' with space ships and high-tech stuff and very science-based (like Star Trek or Doctor Who) or to make it like us, or like us at some point in our history - Planet of the Apes included. Anyway, it seems to me that this approach is both psychologically and historically plausible, and makes for some really interestingly original storytelling.

Anyway, I'm big on love and forgiveness as concepts too.

I admit I think the tactically sound ending would have been to kill Gray, but I can also see why Jack can't.

Well - there was a sort of symbolic death there, I thought. Which leaves the field open.

Re: part 1

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

I am a Tosh lover, and was not unhappy with her fate

Me either. I always think I'm going to hate it when someone is killed off that I like, but usually in the shows I watch they do the death well enough that I don't - I feel gutted, but I can still enjoy the show and the drama. The only time I can think of that I really hated and was so furious about was in Highlander: Endgame, and that was because it felt like a betrayal of the character in the way it happened.

I thought Tosh had an amazing death, and Owen too. So though it hurts, I don't hate it.

We really don't know much about the 51st century

True, and I also like that. Though Jack's attitude may also be as a result of the things he has lived through as much as his cultural upbringing. Interesting now that his tarot card was so clearly a knight in armour.

Re: part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always think I'm going to hate it when someone is killed off that I like, but usually in the shows I watch they do the death well enough that I don't - I feel gutted, but I can still enjoy the show and the drama.

Yes. And it has seemed likely to me for some time that Tosh was slated to die this year - I'm not sure exactly why I thought that; maybe a sense that they didn't know where to go with the character. If it was up to me she'd have got her own show with a title something like "The Adventures of Toshiko, Hot Bi Alien Catcher" but I could tell they weren't thinking along those lines.

The only time I can think of that I really hated and was so furious about was in Highlander: Endgame, and that was because it felt like a betrayal of the character in the way it happened.

I don't remember much about what happened in Highlander: Endgame. I don't even remember who died. Was it Connor Macleod?

The TV death that I felt was an abominable betrayal of both character and show was that of Krycek in X-Files.

I thought Tosh had an amazing death, and Owen too. So though it hurts, I don't hate it.

I agree. I love the scene where he was railing against death.

Though Jack's attitude may also be as a result of the things he has lived through as much as his cultural upbringing.

He certainly does seem to be a 'think for yourself' kind of guy, even though he has modelled so much of his attitude on that of the Doctor - but always, always in his own way. I'm sure he has picked up all sorts of things - widsom, philosophy, patience - in his time travelling. More than he even realizes, I think.

Interesting now that his tarot card was so clearly a knight in armour.

Oh, yes - how true! I hadn't made that connection, but it's true, and I love it.

part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it's entirely possible time passed differently there - that's the only way I can explain why he didn't go utterly insane!

You make it sound kind of like the Phantom Zone. Which works in context, too. Yes, I was wondering how the waking/breathing thing would (or wouldn't) work. Reminded me of a story I once read where an Immortal from Highlander, probably Methos, was kept underwater for a long time. He couldn't die but he couldn't breathe or live, either.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of spiritual exercises for sense deprivation - monks meditating silently in the dark for long periods of time, that sort of thing. Time is relative. Certain spiritual exercises, they say, transcend time. Just another way of looking at it.

Either way, the point is that by embracing the torment, Jack overcame it.

Your explanation of what happened with Captain John makes a lot of sense, and fits what we've seen - at least as far as I remember.

John realised he was in very deep shit and had to reevaluate some things, like how far he would really go and how he did feel about Jack.

There's an idea I like - and I hesitate to call it an implication, because that would mean they meant me to think it, but it's a possibility - that John kicked the drug'n'murder habit after "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" when he saw how Jack had grown and how he had a good life and was reminded how much he loved him. Making Jack the inspiration for the changes in John, parallel perhaps to the machinations of Grey trying to manipulate John to harm Jack.

I think he probably still doesn't want him around but I think he is grateful and likely trusts him a little more - just not enough to want him to stay.

Maybe Jack thinks that John is finding his own path and will come back when he's ready. Maybe he thinks Torchwood (meaning Gwen and Ianto) aren't ready for John. For various reasons I'm sure it'd be awkward for him to have Ianto and his ex both on the premises together - though it might be fun to see. But as it stands, John is problematic for him, and I think it's a mark of trust at least that he thinks the problem of John can be shelved for a bit while he sorts out other things.

They've definitely left it open for a return though, and that is cool.


I would dance in joy if I could.

All I have to say about Toshiko and Owen is that I cried my eyes out and between them Naoko and Burn broke my heart.

Their acting was wonderful. Good dialogue, too. I had wondered if they would kill both but I didn't really expect it. I thought maybe Toshiko would die and Owen would become alive again. But... no.

Re: part 2

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

You make it sound kind of like the Phantom Zone

What's that then? I like the spiritual exercise idea, and the idea that by choosing his fate and embracing it Jack is less adversely affected by it. I've seen that suggested other places as well.

that John kicked the drug'n'murder habit after "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" when he saw how Jack had grown and how he had a good life and was reminded how much he loved him. Making Jack the inspiration for the changes in John,

Ooh. I like that idea. And it fits with the idea of Jack is to John as the Doctor is to Jack, rather than John being Jack's Master parallel. And as jadesfire2808 points out below, we don't know how much time has passed for John between KKBB and EW.

Re: part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The Phantom Zone is a concept from 1960s DC comics. It was invented (or created or discovered) by the high-tech aliens of the planet Krypton, where Superman came from. They had a ray that zapped criminals into the Phantom Zone for a specified amount of time, like a prison sentence. When there, the prisoners could see out to our world - the world of reality - but they had no bodies or forms, couldn't be seen, couldn't interact with the material world at all. They could interact with each other - seeing and hearing each other, anyway.

In DC comics it was a place of punishment, usually, though not always.

I like the spiritual exercise idea, and the idea that by choosing his fate and embracing it Jack is less adversely affected by it.

I like that too.

And it fits with the idea of Jack is to John as the Doctor is to Jack, rather than John being Jack's Master parallel.

Exactly: preferable in all ways. It even leads me to the conclusion that perhaps Jack, not knowing what John is like now, is simply leaving him freedom to find himself and prove himself. Not judging at all.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm so glad that someone else saw the same things that I did. The whole thing utterly floored me, making my husband ask "why do you watch these things" and me waving my hands and going "because it's good", then going in search of more tissues.

As heroic figures go, Jack's is not so much the obvious contemporary superhero or action hero - he's a medieval martyr.
I utterly love this. One of the most common complaints about this episode has been 'how does Jack come out of it sane?' which I have to admit I hadn't even thought of. Because he chose what happened to him, he went into it willingly. People will do truly extraordinary things for what they believe, and I don't see this as any different. Not that it didn't hurt like hell, in every sense, but that was the point. And it's not as though he was exactly unscathed beforehand - just on your list, that's an extraordinary set of circumstances to live through, and who knows what happened to him before that. This was bad. There's a niggling feeling in the back of my brain that it might not actually be the worst.

Of course, I still have no idea how his greatcoat survived the centuries, but I'm going with 'it's Jack!' which has always worked as an explanation up til now...

I'm absolutely with you on wanting to see more of Captain John, and I kind of like the idea that he was working for Gray, right from the beginning. The mercy-killing would definitely make sense, because he does seem to have genuine love for Jack. On the other hand, although 11 episodes pass in time for us, the whole 'working vortex manipulator' thing means that who knows how much time has passed for John, in his terms. Could be that he'd found Gray already, but that Gray only started using him after Jack rejected him. Or something like that.

I think I might need one of your pain pills to make better sense of this! Torchwood is definitely scoring high points for character, not so much for plot.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The whole thing utterly floored me

Me too, absolutely. When Jack said "penance" I think I whimpered aloud.

making my husband ask "why do you watch these things" and me waving my hands and going "because it's good", then going in search of more tissues.

Yes, exactly!

One of the most common complaints about this episode has been 'how does Jack come out of it sane?' which I have to admit I hadn't even thought of.

Those are people who've lived all their lives with Freudian thought and modern western rationalism. They don't apply other modes of thinking - medieval, eastern mysticism, whatever. This is a totally different level. It's irrational, but that's why it's so powerful.

Because he chose what happened to him, he went into it willingly.

Yes. He understood what was going on better than anyone, including Grey.

People will do truly extraordinary things for what they believe, and I don't see this as any different.

I agree. Jack was really... putting his selfhood and his ego aside, because that wasn't what mattered. He's had trouble enough living as an immortal, and this was another way of dealing with it.

This was bad. There's a niggling feeling in the back of my brain that it might not actually be the worst.

I think the year on the Valiant might have been worse for him because the Doctor and Martha were endangered, and he was helpless.

I still have no idea how his greatcoat survived the centuries, but I'm going with 'it's Jack!' which has always worked as an explanation up til now...

51st century fabric, which lasts for millennia, including repairs from Sleeper stab-wounds. How did he manage to get a 51st century coat, you ask? Maybe he stashed one somewhere when he was a con man, that he was able to pick up during the 20th century. I can imagine him doing that.

Alternately, the mystical properties that preserve intact the bodies of certain saints and their clothes over centuries might have been in play here.

I'm absolutely with you on wanting to see more of Captain John, and I kind of like the idea that he was working for Gray, right from the beginning.

Off the top of my head, I like the idea, and it explains some of the oddities in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang", including John's vacillating anger. I must watch "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" again with this in mind.

although 11 episodes pass in time for us, the whole 'working vortex manipulator' thing means that who knows how much time has passed for John, in his terms.

It could be days or years. It could be anything.

I think I might need one of your pain pills to make better sense of this!

If only it worked that way!

Torchwood is definitely scoring high points for character, not so much for plot.

Amazing concepts and characters, not so much on clarity.

Now that I think of it, I see lots of medieval concepts creeping in trhoughout series 2 - like the Tarot cards' symbolism, the church where Death was based, and other things I might have missed...

I loved it that they had a scene on the Castle ramparts.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

The religious and mystical themes in Torchwood aren't exactly subtle, any more than they are in Doctor Who. I hadn't thought of the medieval themes either, but yes, definitely. My tarot research got side-tracked, but I do keep meaning to go back and look into that properly. And I love idea of Jack's mystic powers preserving the coat :)

It's irrational, but that's why it's so powerful.
It reminds me of taking tutorials on ancient religion with someone who could absolutely not get her head around the idea that maybe they did what they did because they believed it. So much of this season, and sci fi in general, has been about the incredible things that people are capable of, the indomitability of the human spirit, if you like, (Tommy, all of them in Adam, Owen, the mother in 'Adrift', the team in 'Fragments'), that this really felt like the climax of it.

I love janne_d's explanation above of John's actions - makes sense of what we've seen. It was good to see them not giving clear cut answers for once - we're still left with some vagueness over how Jack feels about John, and I loved the ambiguity and pain of the goodbye.

There was some part of me that wanted Jack to have killed Gray, although I absolutely understood why he didn't. Jack's carrying enough guilt as it is, but he's carrying it - it doesn't stop him moving forwards, he just keeps going, as he says to Gwen that they will. I love the way he's allowed to acknowledge what he feels and then get on with his life. Good grief, if we weren't all in love with the character before...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The religious and mystical themes in Torchwood aren't exactly subtle, any more than they are in Doctor Who.

No, not subtle. And there are so many ways they could be doing it that I would hate, but they seem to have managed to hit the right note for my sensibilities every time. Incredible.

I love idea of Jack's mystic powers preserving the coat :)

It works both ways: if Jack has mystical powers that help preserve his coat, then perhaps it too has mystical powers that help to preserve him. We already know the coat has more mundane mystical powers (if that phrase isn't an oxymoron) - it defines his style and his personality, it preserves memories he cherishes, it projects a heroic image. It isn't hard for me to think of it as a sort of symbolic outward projection of his soul.

taking tutorials on ancient religion with someone who could absolutely not get her head around the idea that maybe they did what they did because they believed it.

Blink. What is difficult about the concept? - don't most people follow religions because they believe in them?

So much of this season, and sci fi in general, has been about the incredible things that people are capable of, the indomitability of the human spirit,

Yes, just about every episode. Beth, too.

we're still left with some vagueness over how Jack feels about John, and I loved the ambiguity and pain of the goodbye.

I loved that too. And I loved it's uncharacteristic seriousness - no banter, no passion, but all the more feeling because of that. Jack with no place in his heart for John, and John with no place to go at all. And yet I felt it was a huge step forward for him. Don't know if they will play it that way in future - they've left themselves open for anything.

I also liked it that for the moment they've given Jack a sort of point of focus in physical and emotional time and space - Jack has Gwen and Ianto and Torchwood so that even if the Time Vortex is gathering storms all around him, he is a stable point in a stable place.

There was some part of me that wanted Jack to have killed Gray

I actually wanted and expected that, but have no problem that he didn't kill him - I think his reasoning was right, that killing him might have tied up a loose end but would be another weight on the side of 'wrongness' and so it was better to keep him alive.

Good grief, if we weren't all in love with the character before...

It seems impossible that he should keep getting better and better, but there you have it.

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

Blink. What is difficult about the concept? - don't most people follow religions because they believe in them?
Apparently we're allowed to nowadays (although we're a bit odd and probably doing so under social pressure) but the Romans and Greeks and early Christians didn't. It was an...interesting...term of tutorials.

Jack with no place in his heart for John, and John with no place to go at all.
I love this - that's just how it felt. John was sort of lost, but I loved that he didn't try to get Jack to let him stay. That felt like his penance, in a way, to walk away from Jack at that point.

For me, that last shot of the three of them felt wrong for the pacing of the episode over all, but staniding on its own, it was perfect. I was really nervous about S2, but I'm actually starting to look forward to S3!

Edited to correct my ancient history...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It was an...interesting...term of tutorials.

It sounds that way!

John was sort of lost, but I loved that he didn't try to get Jack to let him stay. That felt like his penance, in a way, to walk away from Jack at that point.

It was the thing that was most painful for him to do, and also the right thing. I'm sure he wanted to beg Jack to keep him and Jack might have let him stay out of compassion, but it would have been the wrong thing for them both, and selfish on John's part, and John knew it.

That felt like his penance, in a way, to walk away from Jack at that point.

I think he understands that he has to earn Jack's trust and respect, and this was the way to do it.

I'm actually starting to look forward to S3!

I'm scared to even speculate what directions they might be taking. I'm scared to look at what other fans are saying, too - there's lots of opportunities here for the shipping factions to take up arms against each other just because Jack is happy with both Gwen and Ianto (in their respective ways).

Interesting thing that without the challenge and anger upholding her, Gwen wasn't sure she could carry on because of the sorrow - while last year, when Jack abandoned them, she took over admirably, upheld by desperation and anger. And hope, too, I suppose.

[jwaneeta.livejournal.com]

Those are people who've lived all their lives with Freudian thought and modern western rationalism. They don't apply other modes of thinking - medieval, eastern mysticism, whatever. This is a totally different level. It's irrational, but that's why it's so powerful.

Yes, well put! I was in a cloistered monastery for a while, and before and after spent a lot of time studying Western mysticism (and some Eastern) and this is precisely the thing. To transcend self -- to repudiate and deny self, even -- is to achieve liberation. Modern thought makes such a god of the ego that to most people the idea is incomprehensible and downright repulsive, like it's some life-denying, morbid dead end of misery... but in practice it's not like that at all.

Mysticism is almost a mirror opposite of modern thought. In mysticism the everyday self, the mere phenomenal ego, is false, limiting, almost a prison. To transend it is to find truth and freedom, they say, and happy the individual who, through force of will or dint of circumstance (like Jack) is brought to a place where self is abandoned and left behind. It's agony, yes, but it's not an agony with no purpose or end.

And the main paradox of mysticism is passivity. In a world where everyone has to guard their precious honor, never let themselves get stomped on, rise above the competition... this looks like just plain lunacy. But in mysticsim true strength is demonstrated not by besting other people but by defeating the raging imperatives of the ego: to suffer without wrath in service of a higher goal, for instance. Jack was never stronger than when he was lying helpless in that open grave, refusing to give into anger and hatred.

Heh, the cool thing about Jack being a demi-saint is that in addition to his selflessness he's got another saintly quality: profound humilty. Yes, he bullshits about his great looks, etc., but underneath the preening bluster is another Jack: the Jack who doesn't think of himself as a hero and who would die laughing if somebody called him a saint.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

this is precisely the thing. To transcend self -- to repudiate and deny self, even -- is to achieve liberation.

Yes. The modern concept of the self is based on 'know thyself', that freedom and enlightenment are found in understanding what makes us tick. The mystical alternative is to believe that we are fluid souls who find fulfillment in denying and bypassing the self - or discovering that there is in fact no 'self' to find.

In yoga terms - the physical world is the illusion, Maya, that really doesn't exist. In most modern scientific paradigms of the universe, the physical reality is what does exist, the mystical is the illusion.

In terms of what happened to Jack: it's interesting to think that sense deprivation and solitary confinement are destructive tortures to the one kind of thought, and tools for liberation and enlightenment for the other. So Jack took the tools Grey was using to torture him, and made it his own conceptual path to survival through surrender.

I find it just incredible that this should be used as a plot point in a 2008 TV show. With an action hero. And it's... it's totally credible because Torchwood doesn't have a closed world view. It's wide open.

<>Jack was never stronger than when he was lying helpless in that open grave, refusing to give into anger and hatred.

Absolutely. Though I think he was pretty strong when he tossed the gun aside and said to the Dalek, "I kinda figured that." Again, he was operating totally without thought of his own ego.

he bullshits about his great looks, etc., but underneath the preening bluster is another Jack: the Jack who doesn't think of himself as a hero and who would die laughing if somebody called him a saint.

Yes, he is only too aware of his own limitations - and not really aware of his own strengths, though he uses them instinctually. (E.g., moments of forgiveness and love, or understanding.)

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Somewhere in the ep, Jack mentioned that they originally partnered psycho John with Jack, because Jack was the only one who could get through to/control John. I think what happened in this ep. was the fruits of that dynamic. But, I was left with the same questions re: John's initial motivation in KKBB in relation to this.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Somewhere in the ep, Jack mentioned that they originally partnered psycho John with Jack, because Jack was the only one who could get through to/control John.

Implying that Captain John was a troublemaker from the beginning. So how did he get into the Time Agency? Seems to me that Captain John might have manipulated events so that he could be Jack's partner - pushing the right buttons with regards to both Jack and whoever was in control of the Time Agency.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Now I see why you didn't want to answer, on the phone earlier today, when I asked if Toshiko was one of those who'd died... ah.

Whose exit wounds does the title refer to?

I can see this as a linguistic trick. As in, Captain John's "exit wounds" Captain Jack, for many reasons related to the things you pointed out as being still unexplained by this episode (and the entire season) about their connection and relationship.

I can also see it as a clear use of the term as it is medically used: when a person has been struck by a projectile which does not then come to rest within that person's body, the projectile causes an exit wound as it leaves that person's body. More than one projectile, more than one exit wound. Two team members lost... and Jack has two more exit wounds in his psyche.

Just a thought.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I see why you didn't want to answer, on the phone earlier today, when I asked if Toshiko was one of those who'd died...

Yes. Condolences! I think I need to write at least one Gwen/Toshiko story.

As in, Captain John's "exit wounds" Captain Jack

But the story really wasn't about Captain John much at all, though he was in it. To make any sense at all in terms of the story, the 'exit wounds' would have to be either Jack's or Grey's.... or perhaps a reference to Tosh and Owen as collateral damage?

I'll have to think about that.

Two team members lost... and Jack has two more exit wounds in his psyche.

Yes, and in different senses at different times, he 'lost' Grey in various ways. That might fit.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

I'm really interested in this penance theme. I'd never ever thought about the Doctor Who related stuff so much as a concern that Jack is being punished for being Jack. As if being so good-looking and charming is somehow a crime. Or his sexuality. I reallyreally wonder if RTD thinks that needs punishing on some level as well. As if having someone be that happily omni doesn't fit into his personal canon of behaviour. (If I really wanted to get weird I'd say he was being punished for the het side of the equation which has been so blatantly curtailed in this series.)

Total love for Owen's redemption, not that I thought he needed it and pleasepleaseplease bring back Capt. John.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm really interested in this penance theme.

Me too.

Jack is being punished for being Jack. As if being so good-looking and charming is somehow a crime.

Well, people do often resent or envy the beautiful and charming.

I don't think Russell T. Davies is anti-omnisexual or anti-polyamory, though I can't necessarily prove it. I think the point is that Jack doesn't deserve the punishment he receives - and that he's blamed for a lot of things that aren't his fault, and he accepts the blame for various reasons.

pleasepleaseplease bring back Capt. John.

Oh, yes! And the sooner the better.

[karaokegal.livejournal.com]

that he's blamed for a lot of things that aren't his fault, and he accepts the blame for various reasons.

Which would re-assert the Jack is Christ theme from Series One and the "Last Retcon" scene in Adam.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Which would re-assert the Jack is Christ theme from Series One and the "Last Retcon" scene in Adam.

Yes, absolutely. It's very consistent.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

And the penance was made 2,000 years ago.... not exactly a subtle choice by Rusty.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

not exactly a subtle choice by Rusty.

I don't think Davies and the word "subtle" belong in the same sentence. He can be devious, he can be circumspect, but I think "subtle" is low on his list of priorities.

[(Anonymous)]

I love your reviews, but this time I have one small doubt. If John had just taken him back to 27AD, then all that followed with Gray would have been right. But, Jack had seen the explosions in Cardiff. I think if lots of people are in peril, then I think you should try and save everyone and forgive them, not just Gray. In reality, Tosh and Owen might not be dead, if he'd taken a different path. He does have a wondrous gift of forgiveness, but this time I'm not so sure.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think if lots of people are in peril, then I think you should try and save everyone and forgive them, not just Gray.

I agree, and this bothered me a lot in "The Last of the Time Lords" when the Doctor took it on himself to forgive the Master for the death of millions - all those innocent people on earth who were killed or enslaved at the Master's whim. I think I understand it better now. At least with Jack, it's easy for me to see that the forgiveness was not for Grey's crimes, but for his personal hatred. The rest was another issue which Jack can't redress or address.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

not for Grey's crimes, but for his personal hatred

That's how I took it. It was intimate, personal, and inward.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, and Jack was apologizing for his role, not for the rest of it.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

the point was taking responsibility, and he took it without hesitation. Two thousand years of penance. An act of expiation all the more remarkable in its spiritual extremity.

Are you done yet? With the making me cry?

My immediate bawling was for Owen and Tosh, but later, after thinking about it, my tears were for the beauty of Jack's sacrifice. A sacrifice that only he could ever make.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Are you done yet? With the making me cry?

Probably not! After all, I plan to write more about Jack. But... probably happy stuff before unhappy stuff.

My immediate bawling was for Owen and Tosh

Oh, yes, that was... quite something.

later, after thinking about it, my tears were for the beauty of Jack's sacrifice.

Yes. And the... I can't say 'casual'... the matter-of-fact way he made it. No self pity, it was just the thing to be done and he did it because it was what he felt was owed.

It was so perfect.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

the matter-of-fact way he made it. No self pity, it was just the thing to be done and he did it because it was what he felt was owed.

Yes, as Captain John noticed. "You didn't struggle."

What was that 2,000 years like? I hope he was dead for most of it. Surely he must have been, or how would he remember anyone but Grey?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Since I don't know anyone who has been buried alive for 2,000 years there's no precedent as to 'what it was like'. Lonely, I imagine. Dark. I think of it as a sort of personal challenge to confront the darkness and those inner demons - a sort of prolonged meditation in which death and rebirth were part of the ongoing cycle, like an exercise in yoga: overcoming pain, and ego, and fear. (But not love.)

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

See, now I'm worried about Ianto again. This will be the third Jack he's known. Who might this one be, after utterly dark millennia? How can Jack possibly tell Ianto anything about it without scaring the crap out of him?

I know that Ianto has a huge heart, but he's also fearful. And does a guy who's been in a prolonged meditation of death and rebirth, overcoming pain, ego, and fear jump back into a relationship? I mean, for Ianto it was only hours.

*bites nails*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Who might this one be, after utterly dark millennia? How can Jack possibly tell Ianto anything about it without scaring the crap out of him?

As I read it: what Ianto needs from Jack (and what Jack needs from Ianto) is love and trust, not understanding. I think they are very healing for each other. And my interpretation is that... Jack's experinces in the Year That Never Was (not to mention the century and half before that, after the Game Station) were hard on him, but he has done a lot of healing and recovery and has returned strengthened.

This time, Ianto didn't need to do without him - didn't feel abandoned because he didn't know Jack had been gone till he was back. So there isn't the same sort of healing necessary there, either.

So I think their relationship will be better for this - both more able to express their own personalities with each other, and closer.

I don't think Jack will ever be able to talk about his experiences when buries, because transcendental/meditative experiences really can't be expressed in language.

So I feel happier and more confident about their relationship than I ever have.

Mind you, the relationship I care about and worry about is that between Jack and the Doctor. Will that ever heal? Well, yes, I think it will, and we've seen the aftermath - but i'm not sure how or why or when.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

You really are trying to make me all wibbly today. :-)

Okay, you've made me happy and eased my mind. You're more perceptive of people than I am, so I tend to go with your instincts and not mine.

Looks like Jack and the Doctor are getting together again, yes? What would you like to see happen?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You really are trying to make me all wibbly today. :-)

My love of the Jack/Ianto relationship is at a new all-time high.

You're more perceptive of people than I am, so I tend to go with your instincts and not mine.

I can't really predict what will happen in series 3 (though I am confident there will be a series 3), but I do feel I have a deep understanding of Captain Jack - subjective though it is!

looks like Jack and the Doctor are getting together again, yes? What would you like to see happen?

Some acknowledgment on the Doctor's part of Jack's worth, or of his growth. Perhaps of the validity of Torchwood.

Mostly I would like the Doctor to be glad to see Jack.