Why are all the men straight on Battlestar Galactica?

[fajrdrako]

graycastle mentioned the issue of sexual orientation on Battlestar Galactica, and my ears perked up. Now, as it happens, I think Battlestar Galactica is one of the best-written things on television, despite a few blind spots. Yes, it's dark - not as dark as, say, George R.R. Martin, but for television, it's remarkably grim. And it deals with heavy psychological issues without simplification or easy answers. But it has been remarkable that of the however-many human survivors, none are gay or bi. A few of the Cylons are lesbian, and there was a brief same-sex kiss between the vicious Commander Cain and the Cylon spy on her ship, whom she later tortures badly.¹ So on Galactica there are no gay men, and the only lesbians are villians. Which is itself a loaded point - villains in this show are not the stereotyped baddies of other shows.

So when graycastle raised the question, I asked if anyone connected to the show had addressed the issue - I was thinking of Ron D. Moore. heyiya pointed me towards this article, in which Mary McDonnell, one of the stars on the show, addresses the issue a little. And in an interesting fashion.

Regarding the show’s portrayal of gender, Mary had lamented that, “at the starting gate, there was a chance to blow it apart, and there was a retreat”; though she added that, “I state this all as part of a positive process.”What, not world with no gay characters is a 'positive process'? Surely not.

This theme recurred when the issue of sexuality was broached. Speaking frankly about the climate in the writers’ room, Mary speculated that, as a group of primarily young straight men, “there isn’t necessarily a burning desire on [the writers’] parts to allow, particularly, lesbianism a full throttle on their show, because they are afraid.”

Afraid of what? Advertisers? Producers? Protraying otherness? What?

But it strikes me as odd that she refers to the 'gay issue' as the 'lesbian issue', probably just because she is thinking entirely in terms of her own character, Laura Roslin. And some of the women on this show are incredibly hot. But as a fan of m/m slash relationships, I wasn't just thinking about the women.

But I think that's the bottom line there - the writers are young, straight males, with no interest at all in LGBT issues and a fear of the topic. Pity.

That is, they tend to take baby steps toward novel and progressive perspectives and then get scared and pull back.

At Brown, she paraphrased, “I would love to see us open up to the diversity of our sexuality as human beings.” (The actual published quote reads: “I know something that keeps being asked of Galactica is the sexuality issue. We haven’t really gone near that at all, and that would be kind of interesting. There’s so much to understand about procreation, sexuality.”) It was emphasized in the discussion, furthermore, that the heterosexual couples onscreen aren’t necessarily normative.

What does that mean? if they aren't normative, what are they?

Religion is one of BSG’s most fascinating and provocative themes

And also, in my opinion, its most boring. I'll stop quoting now!


That answer is disappointing, but not really surprising. I'd hoped, I suppose, that Ron Moore and his cohort of brilliant writers were just itching to cover oreintationally-diverse themes, but the producers wouldn't let them. But no. No shifting blame. They're just a bunch of scared straight guys.

Faugh.

~ ~ ~

¹ Eventually, that spy is saved, more or less, by a man who loves her. Hmm.

Comments

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

perhaps they bio-engineered it out of humanity? i'd wouldn't mind that. oh, I mean, not as a premise for a story, I would definitely mind it if people would actually try to do that. I remember reading 1 story were like 99.99% of people were straight, it was a lonely world for gay people. But the whole background of how something like that could happen and how it would have it effects on society's ideas in generations to come. would perhaps people try to reintroduce the genetic diversity?

[trialia]

Just a random rec, you might enjoy Lois McMaster Bujold's book "Ethan of Athos" if you haven't read it already. :)

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

*thnx* I've read it :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

perhaps they bio-engineered it out of humanity? i'd wouldn't mind that.

That at least would be an explanation for the absence of GLBT characters on the show. But no, they don't practice any kind of biological engineering on the show - no hint of it, rather the contrary.

Come to think of it, I'd like to see more racial diversity on the show, too.

[vands88.livejournal.com]

Wow. You know I never thought about that before, but it is rather strange that there have been no gay relationships on BSG. Surely, someone on Galactica must be that way inclined or at least bi. It would make a great storyline for one of the regular characters to be questioning their sexuality and to see how it is handled by other characters and the military.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You know I never thought about that before, but it is rather strange that there have been no gay relationships on BSG. Surely, someone on Galactica must be that way inclined or at least bi.

It seems odd to me - a strangely unrealistic, given how convincing the rest of the background is, and how convincing the characters are.

It would make a great storyline for one of the regular characters to be questioning their sexuality

There was a time when Lee Adama was going through a promiscuous phase and I would hoping one of his girlfriends would be a boyfriend. No such luck.

They haven't even established a prejudice against gays in that society - nothing, it's just a non-subject.

[trialia]

I've never seen Kat as anything other than lesbian, FWIW - she doesn't hit any of the "het!girldar" chords with me. *shrugs* The others, who really knows... except Cain and Gina, of course. Six always seems fairly unconcerned about gender in her relationships, to me... I loved the Caprica/Baltar/D'Anna triangle.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that Kat is probably lesbian too, but if she is, they should tell us so. You can't count it as a show having GLBT characters if we just have to guess.

That's why I like the way Torchwood handles it so much. No guessing.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Well, I had noticed that all of the female human-form Cylons are pretty amazingly bangin' hot, and the male Cylons tend to run from ordinary-looking to downright character-actor-ugly, so I wasn't the least bit surprised to find out that the writers room was full of young straight males. They have their priorities, after all!

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

Indeed!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You think the men in BSG are often unattractive? Lee Adama is among the most gorgeous of the gorgeous, IMHO, and the guy playing Helo is nice to look at. I've ha a crush on Edward James Olmos for decades and I think he has aged rather well. (Compared to, say, Harrison Ford or Mel Gibson, both of whom I used to find attractive but don't now.) And we have Gaeta and any random scene of the soldier-pilots - I think there's plenty of male eye-candy here.

A nice bonus, that there are attractive women, too.

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

I'm not teenygozer but I think that the *Cylon* men are really unappealing. Not to mention severly outnumbered by the drop dead gorgeous Cylon women. I think that the one Cylon who was courting Kara (very creepyly) is supposed to be ruggedly handsome but... he does nothing for me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm not teenygozer but I think that the *Cylon* men are really unappealing.

Yes, I'll agree with that - though I don't actually remember now who all the Cylons are. Anders is a Cylon, isn't he? He's utterly gorgeous. And Callum Keith Rennie is attractive enough in many roles, though so scary here I can barely look at him. Of the ones we've known to be Cylons... no, they aren't the most preposessing of the males. It's the humans I had my eye on.

The Cylon women, on the other hand, are very beautiful. I can't think of any unattractive women in the show, as a matter of fact. Fat? Ugly? Old? Guess they were all killed when Caprica blew up.

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

I didn't remember that Anders is a Cylon. It has been quite a while since I saw that episode. But one good-looking male vs. every female being gorgeous? Bah.

Is Rennie the priest? I think he's butt ugly. Sorry, but no eye-candy there.

"I can't think of any unattractive women in the show, as a matter of fact. Fat? Ugly? Old? Guess they were all killed when Caprica blew up."

Yup. Well, Roslin is old by TV standards. I was actually surprised by that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

one good-looking male vs. every female being gorgeous? Bah.

Bad odds.

Roslin is old by TV standards. I was actually surprised by that.

I suppose that's a point!

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

I didn't say the men in BSG weren't attractive! I pointed out that the human-male Cylons we are used to in BSG are simply not as attractive as the female versions, who have been model-gorgeous. It's as if someone decided the females MUST be sexually attractive, whereas that level of good looks are not as important for a male toaster. And, yeah: if your show runner & writers are all young, straight males, that's going to be their priority.

#3 is played by Lucy Lawless, 'nuff said. ::pants::

#5 is played by a guy who looks like your basic thin-lipped, ad-marketing weasel.

#6 is played by Tricia Helfer, an ex-model who is inhumanly gorgeous.

#8 is played by Grace Park, another ex-model who is nothing if not babe-licious.

The Leoben model is played by CKR, a character actor who is a perennial fan-favorite -- and yes, we all adore him -- but looks like he was rode hard & put away wet on his best day.

The Cavil model is played by Dean Stockwell, an elderly curmudgeon who could only be found attractive by someone who thinks Andy Rooney is hot. Or possibly a nostalgic fan of Quantum Leap.

The Simon model was for most of the series perhaps the best-looking of the male Cylons, but he's not model-gorgeous, he's merely got average guy good looks.

We had the final five revealed at the last moments of the last ep, let's see how they stack up:

The Tigh model: yet another elderly curmudgeon. *sigh*

The Tyrol model: cute, I'll grant you: certainly not model-gorgeous. Another average guy.

The Anders model: AND WE HAVE A WINNER! Arguably our first-and-only male Cylon worthy of being called model-gorgeous. SHOW US YOUR SIX-PACK, CUTIE!

The Foster model: ...and we have another babe of a female Cylon! I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of the actress in a bikini at conventions.

How much you wanna bet the last Cylon of the Twelve is a certain gorgeous, sexy character we all know and love, for the fanboys to lust after?

I think that if they'd hired a few more Tom Welling-types to play male Cylons and had a few of the female Cylons played by average-Jane, older character actresses, thus balancing out everyone's level of sexual attractiveness across the board, I'd be less annoyed with the writers.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I pointed out that the human-male Cylons we are used to in BSG are simply not as attractive as the female versions

I'd actually never noticed, but you're quite right: including a marked difference in the perceived age level. (I'm not sure how age works with Cylons.)

And, yeah: if your show runner & writers are all young, straight males, that's going to be their priority.

True, though I don't know how much influence the writers have in the casting. Of course, if they keep writing about pretty young women, we'll get pretty young women cast in those roles.

Persually I swoon a the sight of Grace Park.

Callum Keith Rennie is not at his best or most gorgeous on this show.

Dean Stockwell, an elderly curmudgeon who could only be found attractive by someone who thinks Andy Rooney is hot.

LOL. I find him weasely too. Maybe it's this role.

The Tigh model: yet another elderly curmudgeon. *sigh*

There are times I thought the Adama/Tigh relationship approached the potentially slashy. Sadly, being an unattractive, unpleasant old drunk, Tigh's character didn't incline me to think along those lines.

The Anders model: AND WE HAVE A WINNER!

One out of... yes. Sigh.

How much you wanna bet the last Cylon of the Twelve is a certain gorgeous, sexy character we all know and love, for the fanboys to lust after?

Who are you thinking of?

I think that if they'd hired a few more Tom Welling-types to play male Cylons and had a few of the female Cylons played by average-Jane, older character actresses, thus balancing out everyone's level of sexual attractiveness across the board, I'd be less annoyed with the writers.

You've convinced me.

Cylons are sexy if they're female, simply creepy and scary if they're male. Except Anders.

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Who are you thinking of?

I think it's Kara Thrace! I've thought she was a Cylon since I saw that the Eye of Jupiter in the Temple was the same as the painting she'd done on the wall of her Caprican apartment years earlier, before the war. I remembered the painting instantly when we were first shown the Temple and screamed, "OMIGOD, STARBUCK PAINTED THAT!!!"

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think it's Kara Thrace! I've thought she was a Cylon since I saw that the Eye of Jupiter in the Temple was the same as the painting she'd done on the wall of her Caprican apartment years earlier, before the war.

It might be. I tend to think she's too obvious - but who knows?

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... You know, now that I think about it, I suspect we're having a bit of a disconnect re: the definition of a level of purely physical, objective attractiveness, or "eye-candy". I'm a long-time fan of EJO, ever since he walked in and took over every scene he was in on Miami Vice -- but he has never been at the level of model-goodlookingness that I am referring to, even if he didn't have that horrendously acne-scarred skin of his. He is an attractive Alpha-male of an actor, and he commands the screen and MAKES you want him, yes: but he will never be called in for an underwear ad. He is not eye-candy.

Tom Welling, who is an ex-model, is at the same level of attractiveness as Tricia Helfer. They are eye-candy. That's what I'm talkin' about!

Yes, I am much more shallow than you. ::hangs head in repentance::

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I suspect we're having a bit of a disconnect re: the definition of a level of purely physical, objective attractiveness, or "eye-candy".

I see what you mean. Though I adore him as Adama, even in his Miami Vice days it was his character and charisma I went for, rather than his looks. In fact, the prettiest one on that show was Tubbs, who was dead boring and had no personality at all.

Tom Welling, who is an ex-model, is at the same level of attractiveness as Tricia Helfer. They are eye-candy. That's what I'm talkin' about!

Yes, and you're quite right. Regular features, photogenic looks.

I am much more shallow than you. ::hangs head in repentance::

It isn't so much shallowness as what you go for - where your visceral reactions lead you. I like character and prettiness (especially in men) doesn't appeal so much. Even when I was very young, I didn't like the young male actors so much. Some exceptions. Always exceptions!

[trialia]

It did do my head in that Cain/Gina wound up being such a messed-up, stereotypical-evil-lesbians-in-SF dynamic as it did. It's interesting to write, but from an objective and not character-focused perspective of the lesbian I am, it pissed me off. :-P

I do like that Mary's interested in exploring it in the show, though - she always did strike me as open to playing a lesbian character if she were asked to, which is a pleasant thing to find (and fangirlable to me) in an actress so well-known and talented as she is. Even if she is, unfortunately, heterosexual, and I'm pretty sure she is, since she's married. Sigh!

[teenygozer.livejournal.com]

It did do my head in that Cain/Gina wound up being such a messed-up, stereotypical-evil-lesbians-in-SF dynamic as it did. It's interesting to write, but from an objective and not character-focused perspective of the lesbian I am, it pissed me off. :-P

I remember many years ago when I watched/loved ST: DS9, we were all a-twitter that there was going to be a gay character on the show... only to find that it was, once again, Ebil Lesbians In Space. The gay or bi characters were all the evil versions of the female characters in the Mirror Universe, which would tend to lead the viewer into believing that the writers wanted to associate gayness with evilness.

Everything old is new again, a whole new set of (young, male) writers seem to think they're on the cutting edge with this hoary crap-writing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

when I watched/loved ST: DS9, we were all a-twitter that there was going to be a gay character on the show... only to find that it was, once again, Ebil Lesbians In Space.

I remember both enjoying and being annoyed by the sexual-orientation games they played in he Mirror Universe - where evil mirror-characters don't have to be straight. I'd long since stopped watching the show by then, despite having a crush on Major Kyra.

which would tend to lead the viewer into believing that the writers wanted to associate gayness with evilness.

No doubt. In a sort of titillating way.

a whole new set of (young, male) writers seem to think they're on the cutting edge with this hoary crap-writing.

For me, the problem is not so much that - it's that the writing in Battlestar Galactica isn't crap at all, it's often brilliant and it's loads above most writing on television. So it's a case where even the very good stuff is trashing orientation issues and giving us nothing - a glaring lack when the rest of their depictions of an interesting, complex, dark and endangered society is very, very convincing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It did do my head in that Cain/Gina wound up being such a messed-up, stereotypical-evil-lesbians-in-SF dynamic as it did.

Yes - as their only token-gay-couple, if you think of it like that, it was annoying that they were so messed-up; especially since we didn't see relationship before the crisis, no more than just to establish it.

Even if she is, unfortunately, heterosexual, and I'm pretty sure she is, since she's married.

Given my own orientation of bi, I'd say to you for that: shame for stereotyping and assuming! Lots of bisexual people marry.

I think most actors and actresses don't have much problem with portraying people of different orientations. That's not the level of the entertainment business where there is a problem.

[trialia]

Given my own orientation of bi, I'd say to you for that: shame for stereotyping and assuming! Lots of bisexual people marry.
Yes, okay, all right, I'm sorry. I know that, I have friends who are bi and married. It's just my impression that Mary is not - that she's just het and quite open-minded - so I should have made that clearer.

Unfortunately, I've come across quite a few actors and actresses who won't play against their orientation in anything (don't ask me to name names, I can't remember)... so I don't take it as read that they will. If they do, great! But.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

okay, all right, I'm sorry. I know that,

Yeah, I know you know. I was teasing a little. And pointing out.

And I think you're probably quite right, that Mary is het and smart and open-minded.

Some actors and actors won't play gay characters, yes, but most of the ones I've read about or know will, without much hesitation. So no, you can't 'take it as read' either way. Bit it's been my experience that there are more gay, bi, gay-friendly and bi-friendly people in show business than in any other profession.

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

I note for the record that MM is just speculating.

Has anyone asked the writers?

I don't know why but the behavior of the humans on BSG reminds me of an old thread on one of the comics newsgroups where somone proved that Wonder Woman could not possibly be a lesbian because her culture came straight from Classical Greece and since people only a century ago were extremely hostile to the idea of gays, people in Greece three thousand years ago must have been much, much more hostile.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

*startled dog so much by laughing with a mouthful of coffee that he started barking*

Come to think of it, "barking" is the best word for that!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So true, so very true!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I note for the record that MM is just speculating.

Yes. And she is considering the subject from her own unique perspective - i.e., that of the point of view of Laura Roslin and her role in the story.

Has anyone asked the writers?

I'm sure they have and I'd love to know what their reply was. If you ever find any interviews or other information, please pass it on! I do suspect they did not say, it's because I'm a straight guy and I don't want to touch the subject. Among other considerations, it's been my experience that straight guys don't feel the need to avoid the subject of beautiful lesbians, generally speaking.

I don't know why but the behavior of the humans on BSG reminds me of an old thread on one of the comics newsgroups where somone proved that Wonder Woman could not possibly be a lesbian because her culture came straight from Classical Greece and since people only a century ago were extremely hostile to the idea of gays, people in Greece three thousand years ago must have been much, much more hostile.

LOL - yes, that explains everything! All that ancient Greek homophobia remains in the cuture. After all, worshippers of Zeus and Apollo wouldn't want any of "that sort of thing" going on, now would they?

[james-nicoll.livejournal.com]

Have you had the pleasure of seeing the Spartans in 300 condemn the Athenians for their boy-hungry ways?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Have you had the pleasure of seeing the Spartans in 300 condemn the Athenians for their boy-hungry ways?

Yes. That was a chuckle.

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

Well, if the culture of the colonies came from the Antiquty, as the names of their gods seem to imply, and *not* from the current-day Western world, as the rest of their culture heavily implies, the writers would have to come up with a reason why gay- or bisexuality would be a cultural problem. Just because it's a problem for some of the people in the our world doesn't mean it has to be in an imaginary world. I'd love, love, love to see bis and gays whose sexuality is just as matter-of-fact as is it to the heteros.

Then again, abortion is pretty much a problem only in religious Western countries and yet it was also put into the show. (It really kicked me out the Suspension of Disbelief and so it stands in my mind as one of the low points of the show.)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the writers would have to come up with a reason why gay- or bisexuality would be a cultural problem.

While, in fact, they seem to think they don't have to mention it at all.

I'd love, love, love to see bis and gays whose sexuality is just as matter-of-fact as is it to the heteros.

I can only say: for that, I watch Torchwood and even Doctor Who. Battlestar Galactica just isn't doing that, and isn't going to do that, thought there's no good reason why not.

Then again, abortion is pretty much a problem only in religious Western countries and yet it was also put into the show.

I don't even remember that!

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

"I don't even remember that!"

"Feminist" Roslin made abortion illegal. Which, by the way, I see as counterproductive to trying to increase the number or humans. Sigh...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

"Feminist" Roslin made abortion illegal.

Sounds vaguely familiar... if draconian.

Not my favourite moment!

Why do you call Roslin feminist? Is she supposed to be feminist? I don't recall this being mentioned.

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

"Why do you call Roslin feminist?"

It's in the same episode. She mentions that she has been fighting all her life for women to be able to have control of their own bodies.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

She mentions that she has been fighting all her life for women to be able to have control of their own bodies.

And then... legislates against abortion? The phrase "turncoat" comes to mind!

[bright-lilim.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

[mollydot.livejournal.com]

It's because of the "special circumstances" and the "survival of the human race".

But in case we empathised too much with the woman who wanted an abortion at the beginning of the episode, she did get one cos Doc Cottle said the ruling hadn't gone through yet (yay Doc Cottle).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Doc Cottle is wonderful! One of my favourite characters.

[yinkawills.livejournal.com]

>But it has been remarkable that of the however-many human survivors, none are gay or bi.<
Yup. Noticed the lack of gay/bi people.

Just as I noticed that amongst the main characters, Black people were scarce. There's Lee's wife, and-occasionally- a male Cylon. We're there as background or a sometime guest star of the week. Par for the course in North American SciFi shows. But my annoyance at that has been offset by the fact that finally, we're seeing a SciFi show which has Hispanic people prominent amongst the main cast and subsidiary cast members. And thats so rare,that I cant do my usual moaning about how/if people who look like me are featured.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Just as I noticed that amongst the main characters, Black people were scarce.

So very true! I'm not usually into the count-heads style of TV watching, whether for gender issues, racial issues, or sexual orientation issues - but sometimes it seems so unbalanced as to be strange. Battlestar Galactica is pretty good on a male/female ratio - and the women aren't just decorative, they have real personalities - but there should be more diversity. It also, now that I think of it, seems a bit odd that everyone is of the same religion.

I'm glad that Boomer was Asian, and she had a fairly prominent role until series 3 or so, but... on the whole... the balance is off on too many angles.

It's a pity, because otherwise the show is good. But it doesn't even represent our reality, let alone the reality of a potential future it tries to depict.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

I always thought Gaeda was gay, and that was part of why he reacted to Baltar the way he had before and after the betrayal. on New Caprica.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always thought Gaeda was gay

I've heard people say so, but I don't think it was ever mentioned on the show, so I wouldn't take it as canon. Not without confirmation.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Over the years I've got fed up of TV, films, & c that go on about they've been inclusive and put in gay character/s, but they're nearly always male. It's probably because of the legal restrictions there were on male homosexuality, but that's where most of the dramatic interest gets focussed. And as a non-heterosexual woman, it's not a great interest of mine, except in terms of comparing the historical/social experience of gay men with that of gay women.

The Curse of the Invisible Lesbian has tended to be a far more prevalent problem in popular culture, outside of porn/erotica aimed at male voyeurism (equivalent of slash). But even appearing in 'villain' roles is better than being invisible. Some of us always loved the glamorous 'bad girls'.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well - I have to admit that I love the glamorous bad girls in Battlestar Galactica, though 'glamorous' maybe isn't the best word for Caine ... powerful, though. Which leads one to wonder what sort of statements they are making about power? I think it would be foolish to over-politicize it all: but it would be nice to see futuristic science fiction handling gender issues and orientation issues better.