Torchwood flotsam and jetsam...

[fajrdrako]

A few ideas about Torchwood that I haven't had time to post yet.

1. Is Gwen bisexual? I'd always thought the answer to this was "probably", but I've upgraded that to "certainly" on the following evidence:
   
   We all notice her enthusiasm with the sex alien in "Day One". Okay, we argue to ourselves, that could just be because of the alien pheromones, it may not indicate anything about orientation.
   
   But it does. The sex alien's pheromones only work on people who would be normally attracted to women - note how it doesn't work with the 100% gay male at the sperm clinic.
   
   So: Gwen is bi, and I'm happy to have sorted that detail conclusively (and happily) in my mind.



2. What is Jack thinking at the end of 'Meat'? I ask this because I've heard fans say they think he was mooning over Gwen and her kiss with Rhys. I don't think that's it at all. I think he's worried because there's a civilian out there now, who has seen the interior of the Hub, and who knows more about Torchwood than Jack is comfortable with - dnagerous for them, and for Rhys.



3. "Is the Time Agency keeping tabs on Jack? Or is it just Captain John?" Two things perplexed me in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang": What was the connection between Blowfish and Captain John? And how did Blowfish know so much about the people in Torchwood?
   
   No, "plot hole" is not an answer.
   
   Obviously Captain John new Blowfish, and expected to meet up with him - that was why Blowfish had the pyramid, and it way why Captain John had to get access to his body in the Hub, to use th pyramid thing.
   
   Captain John knew exactly where and when to find Jack, and even says so: he thought he was "lucky to have ended up here". I would guess he was not just looking for the diamond that didn't exist, he was looking for Jack, with the hope of persuading Jack to hook up with him - that he may have somehow manipulated the Time Vortex/Rift/time travel mechanism so that the woman who was his lover/victim would send her gadget to Jack's time. How would he trace Jack's time? Presumably through Jack's wristband - it's Vortex Manipulator may be disabled, but parts of it work. It's active. I always assume that Jack uses it to scan for alien tech still, as he did in "The Empty Child".
   
   So: Captain John researched Jack and his companions. He sent Blowfish through for groundwork. He followed to set up his meeting with Jack.
   
   Crafty, that Captain John.



4. Jack's love for Ianto. I've been seeing various instances of parallel structure or plotting in several episodes - examples where Jack's love for Ianto echoes a more overt situation between other characters. An example would be in "Meat", where Ianto and Rhys are being held hostage, while Gwen and Jack are being threatened by the villains' holding guns to their lovers' heads.
   
   An example I was pondering before is in "Cyberwoman". The juxtaposition of the kiss Jack gives the unconscious Ianto, and the kiss between Gwen and Owen, is obvious. But there is a much greater parallel: while Jack is demanding that Ianto kill the woman he loves to end the Cyberwoman threat, he is also threatening to kill Ianto - the man he loves. Jack isn't asking an employee to do anything he isn't prepared to do himself. And yet he is as reluctant to kill Ianto as Ianto is to kill Lisa, even knowning what's at stake. Ianto has put Jack into an almost-impossible position.
   
   As it happens, the whole Torchwood team kills Lisa, Ianto lives and is forgiven, and life goes on until "They Keep Killing Suzie", at which point they become lovers.



5. I am still baffled by the timeline: how much time passes between episodes?

Cross-posted to my LJ and torch_wood

Comments

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

#2 - my take is the same as yours. I'm amazed so many people are taking it as romantic jealousy!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I do think that Jack is attracted to Gwen (and vice versa), but I don't think this is a major issue, as some fans do. I'd say that the main thrust of "Meat" was a quite different message: that Gwen loves Rhys, and Rhys no longer feels jealous of Jack.

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

My theory about #2 is that while Jack is somewhat attracted to Gwen, he is even more attracted to the idea of Gwen. Gwen is for him this ultimate fantasy of normal and ordinary life that he can never achieve. A fantasy that he probably spent a lot of time cultivating in Valiant.

So when anything disrupts this fantasy he becomes upset. I think for all his urging Gwen to go home to Rhys all through S1 he never really thought about Rhys as a real person. Rhys was this abstract ordinary boyfriend that he never had to take in account because he knew from experience that Gwen always chose Torchwood (and Jack) first. Jack wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to live through Gwen and at same time have her at his disposal.

And then suddenly Rhys was there in Torchwood, in Jack's turf, and this time Gwen was choosing him first. Jack didn't know how to react. When Gwen threatened to leave Torchwood, he realized he might lose her and at the same time his fantasy. Hence the fight with Gwen.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'm not sure Jack really wants a 'normal' life, though he does seem to wish he could be mortal again.

I would agree, though, that he fantasizes about Gwen - and probably did so on the Valiant.

I think that if you are right about Jack's view of Gwen's relationship, then the events of "Meat" laid those demons to rest.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

I want to know if John was being honest about the Time Agency being gone.

I like your take on the parallels between Gwen/Rhys and Jack/Ianto. While I agree that Jack's more concerned about Rhys knowing about Torchwood than jealous of him for being with Gwen, I think what he's most jealous of is their relationship. Not WITH her, per se, but just having a relationship like that with someone. He's still getting there with Ianto.

MHOYMMV

and other acronyms as required...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I want to know if John was being honest about the Time Agency being gone.

My first thought was that Captain John was being dishonest about everything.

But he wasn't. He was at least partially telling the truth when he said he wanted Jack back, and he was telling the truth when he mentioned Gray.

Do you think he's unhappy about his relationship with Ianto in some way? I find it hard to believe that it isn't satisfying him: he's good at saying what he wants, and it seems to me that Ianto would do his best to be exactly whatever Jack wanted or needed.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

I find it hard to believe that it isn't satisfying him: he's good at saying what he wants, and it seems to me that Ianto would do his best to be exactly whatever Jack wanted or needed.

Yes, but Gwen is very open and independent, where Ianto is very closed and dependent. Building a relationship with Ianto is going to take longer. I'm not convinced that Ianto is entirely comfortable around Jack yet. He may even be holding back from Jack out of a certain shyness; love strikes some people that way, when they're not sure of the other person.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He may even be holding back from Jack out of a certain shyness; love strikes some people that way, when they're not sure of the other person.

That's a good point. Ianto loves Jack, but doesn't know how to handle him. Gwen is rather good at handling him - at least at making her desires and intentions known, and challenging Jack as necessary.

[beccaelizabeth]

note how it doesn't work with the 100% gay male at the sperm clinic.
untrue - he ends up a little pile of dust too

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, but he said he didn't want the sex alien. I still think my logic holds.

[elebridith]

And how can you be sure that pile of dust *was* the gay one? Not that like there was much to indentify:-) Carys could have just thrown him out of the room and order the next one in.
Re: 2: I've seen the discussion going on about Gwen/Jack - what's your opinion about it? Does Jack want to have an affair with Gwen? How would that fit in with him wanting her a normal life outside? "Go home, eat lasagne, kiss your boyfriend" And how does Ianto fit in there? I'd like to hear your opinion, since I've not seen the eps myself and there are too many Gwen haters out there to get a clear image...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

And how can you be sure that pile of dust *was* the gay one? Not that like there was much to indentify:-)

Yup. Gay-boy might have (wisely) run for the hills before Torchwood turned up.

Re: 2: I've seen the discussion going on about Gwen/Jack - what's your opinion about it?

That fans have strong opinions about their preferred relationships.

Does Jack want to have an affair with Gwen?

I think Jack has been attracted to Gwen since the first time he saw her. I think she very much wants to have sex with him. I think he won't touch her because of Rhys - he has a great deal of respect for 21st century customs and morals, and he truly wants her to be happy.

How would that fit in with him wanting her a normal life outside? "Go home, eat lasagne, kiss your boyfriend"

He's happy to see her happy with Rhys. Doesn't mean he doesn't like her, love her, or want to have sex with her anyway. It does mean he isn't like Owen - he's not going to seduce her for the fun of it. He approves her choice of Rhys.

how does Ianto fit in there?

He loves Ianto. I have no doubt. Not an exclusive love, but a warm and deep and affectionate love. Loving one person doesn't mean Jack can't love another simultaneously - he's comfortably polyamorous and wouldn't even understand why anyone would think it strange. (Quaint categories.) I think he loves the Doctor most of all, but that has nothing to do with his love for Ianto. Just as loving the Doctor doesn't mean he loved Rose any less.

I'd like to hear your opinion, since I've not seen the eps myself and there are too many Gwen haters out there to get a clear image...

A lot of people just dislike Gwen, and would be disappointed to think Jack loves her to any significant degree. Other people, whether they like Gwen, love her, or hate her, feel that if Jack is attracted to Gwen he is being emotionally unfaithful to Ianto - and that's their preferred relationships, sometimes just because they love Ianto, sometimes because it's slash as opposed to het.

I too prefer slash in general. And I'm very fond of both Gwen and Ianto. If I were to choose between them - well, until last episode, I think I'd have said I preferred Gwen because she has a strong character and Ianto seems so young and unformed, but he really was fun in "Meat" and seemed both more competent and more mature. So they're equalized a bit in my estimation.

My favourite relationship for Jack is Jack/Doctor, by far. So I'd most want to see him with the Doctor, not Ianto. I find him potentially sexy with any of the Torchwood team. I like the Jack/Gwen sparks, I adore the Jack/Ianto sweetness and playfulness - and all the Jack/Ianto fic. I would love to see Jack get sexy with Tosh, and as for Owen - well, I'd be happy if I never saw Owen have sex with anyone ever again (he'd shoot me for that!) but if he's to have sex with anyone, I'd probably only be interested if it were with Jack. I'd also like to see a romance (or sex) between Jack and Cathy Swanson.

I really like the point that the writers have consistently made with Jack - that a person can love more than one person deeply and truly, at the same time.

And I wouldn't mind in the least if Jack were to have a sexual relationship with both Ianto and Gwen.

So it sounds maybe as if I would like any pairing for Jack, but that's not true. It depends how it's done. I live in fear that Ianto will make him 'settle down' and become monogamous and domesticated, which would disappoint me terribly - would make the character of Jack more 21st-century-style 'ordinary' than he has ever been.

Not much danger of that, I think. I hope.

[elebridith]

I think he won't touch her because of Rhys - he has a great deal of respect for 21st century customs and morals, and he truly wants her to be happy.
Yup. Exactly what I think after finishing season one. Glad that has not changed apparently!:-)
comfortably polyamorous *lol*!!!! Great description! Would make a good icon line:-) I would hate it if Jack would ditch Ianto completely for Gwen - I admit I love the Jack/Ianto thing. I wouldn't mind a threesome, on the other hand I'm quite fond of Rhys, and at the moment I can't see how they could do that without hurting him very deeply. Oh well. We just have to trust the Powers That Be, I guess.
Ooooh, and Jack/Doctor! Yesssss... hard decision which would be my favourite pairing. I postpone that one!:-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I think after finishing season one. Glad that has not changed apparently!:-)

No, I don't think so. I don't know if it will change.

*lol*!!!! Great description! Would make a good icon line:

Yeah... I should probably try making some icons. Except I'm a writer, not an artist.

I would hate it if Jack would ditch Ianto completely for Gwen - I admit I love the Jack/Ianto thing.

I do too - and I'd hate to see Jack ditch anything. I don't think he would, or will. He has a very constant heart.

hard decision which would be my favourite pairing. I postpone that one!

There are a lot of good possibilities. I happen to have an outstanding favorite, but it doesn't mean I don't like the others.