Torchwood: "Meat" - Torchwood as some kind of weird cult...

[fajrdrako]

As far as I'm concerned, Catherine Treganna continues to write the very best episodes of Torchwood. Meat was superb.

Might as well itemize:

1. Ianto, my wonderful Ianto: your coat, your sarkiness, your cleverness, your fighting skills, your quick-thinking when looking down the barrel of an outlaw gun. I am so very happy with Ianto. He's worthy to join U.N.C.L.E. or something. I think Jack has been giving him fighting lessons. Oh to be a fly on that wall.



2. Best moment. Jack: "No. We're going to save it... It's an alien. It needs our protection."



3. The pterodactyl! We saw him again! Flying around the Hub as if he owned it. (He does.) O happy day.



4. Rhys challenges Gwen on her lies. She tells him the truth. And then at the end she doesn't Retcon him. How I loved that.
   
   Even better: I had thought she would throw away the Retcon pill, but not tell Jack she hadn't given it to him. And she didn't do that. She confronted Jack. And she made him change his mind. Perfect.
   
   Frankly, I really loved Rhys here - from the first scene where he's singing with the radio. to the end when he's so excited to know about aliens.
   
   Loved the whole scene where Gwen was lying to Rhys and he knew it and so followed her. Loved it that he improvised what he was doing so well. Loved it that Rhys and Gwen confronted each other - "The tall bloke in the coat, are you fucking him or what?" Loved the way they talked over each other: it seemed so real.
   
   Loved it also that Gwen quoted Jack. "The things I have seen."
   
   Loved her comment on the Invisible Lift, that's it "too complicated to explain". As if she could explain a Gallifreyan chameleon circuit.



5. Jack: Do I show off?
   Ianto: Just a bit.



6. I loved it that the alien was sympathetic and tragic, though I hope one of these days we get an alien with a happy ending. I loved the way Owen set up his 'mercy killing' and the way Jack and the others comforted it as it died.



7. I liked Rhys's office assistant, and the scene where Jack flirts with her.



8. Jack's vest. Call me shallow. I like it.



9. Gwen: Have you ever eaten alien meat? Did you like it?
   Jack: He seemed to enjoy it.
   
   Made Gwen laugh. So cute.



10. "This is quite homoerotic." And Rhys's later line to Jack: "You're not gay, by any chance, you?" I wonder what Jack replied. I really liked the way they got along - even when they didn't.
    
    And the UST between Gwen and Jack - not just continuing but escalating. Jack even seemed jealous - "Mr Cave Man." Tut tut. I might be said to be loving this.
    
    One quibble: this completely destroyed the continuity basis for a story I'm currently working on. Time to... revise? scrap it? start again? make it AU? - Revise, I think. The premise of the story is intact, just the circumstances.



11. "Guess who'll have to look after it in the meantime." Ianto has a fine grasp of reality. And: "I'll stock up on plankton."



12. The only thing I didn't like in the episode - Continuing hinting at a possible Owen/Toshiko relationship. Either Owen is being obtuse, or he's trying to let her down kindly. I hope it's the latter.



13. No Jack/Ianto snogging, but there were a few compensations.

Comments

[tigress35.livejournal.com]

When did Rhys ask if Jack was gay? I totally missed that!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It was when they were talking in the truck, after Rhys joked that he wished Gwen had been uglier. "You're not gay, by any chance, you?"

Adorable.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If you want to look for it - it's around minute 28.

[goss.livejournal.com]

I really liked the way they got along - even when they didn't.

Yeah, I really liked that too, didn't expect it all.

Completely enjoyed seeing so much of Rhys and Gwen in this ep, and them both being smart and brave and honorable. Neither character acted stupidly, and TPTB didn't draw out the whole 'secrets and lies' drama, like some other shows which I shall not name.

Although, I did think Jack gazing longingly after Gwen, especially now, when he's got an Ianto (who is obviously in love with him) *right there*, was a bit much. And Tosh is making me uneasy as well, I will totally start disliking Owen if she gets hurt by him.

Why can't they all just be one big, happy, incestious family? That way no one would get hurt. Is that too much to ask? :b

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Completely enjoyed seeing so much of Rhys and Gwen in this ep, and them both being smart and brave and honorable.

It was particularly nice seeing Rhys being brave and thinking fast - even when angry. I'm not sure I agree that Gwen wasn't stupid at all, seems to me she should have noticed Rhys beyond the police lines in the very beginning, or realized he was following her later - especially when he was using his own car. But it isn't a big lapse, and I love the way it played out.

TPTB didn't draw out the whole 'secrets and lies' drama, like some other shows which I shall not name.

Now you've gone and made me curious. C'mon, fess up, what show are you thinking of? Smallville?

I did think Jack gazing longingly after Gwen, especially now, when he's got an Ianto (who is obviously in love with him) *right there*, was a bit much.

The problem there for me was not Jack's attraction to Gwen, which I like, it was that they didn't deal with his relationship with Ianto at all. For one thing, Ianto was witnessing all this same as we were. He's perceptive enough. What does he think? Is he irritated, jealous, accepting, what? I really wish we'd seen some intimate Jack/Ianto interaction - Ianto comforting Jack because of the Gwen situation would have been ideal, in my opinion, but any kind of sense of connection between they would have been good.

Tosh is making me uneasy as well, I will totally start disliking Owen if she gets hurt by him

I disliked Owen for a good half of last series (off and on) and though I think at present he's trying to be kind to her, I hate the theme and wish they'd just ditch it.

Why can't they all just be one big, happy, incestious family?

Yes, please. That's one reason I like the Jack/Gwen/Rhys thing so much - Rhys isn't left out of it. (Surely I am not the only one who found the Jack/Rhys interaction very slashy? Jack even commented on it.)

That way no one would get hurt.

And Jack would be so very happy.

[http://users.livejournal.com/twistedlogic_/]

I absolutely love Catherine Treganna as well. Yes, she has recycled her lover-from-the-past-plot one too many times (even though it was still a beautiful episode), but I tend to forgive her because she writes Ianto ever so well (seriously, has he been watching The Bourne Identity?), and she shows us glimpses of the old cheekybastardWho!Jack.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

she has recycled her lover-from-the-past-plot one too many times

Ah, but I certainly wouldn't want to do without "Captain Jack Harkness" and with Diane hadn't come to the present we wouldn't have had all that great character development with Owen. Yes, she did it twice, but there was no lover from the past here!

she writes Ianto ever so well

Her Ianto is beautiful. I'd like more of that.

has he been watching The Bourne Identity?

Quite possibly! If so, I approve!

she shows us glimpses of the old cheekybastardWho!Jack

Yes - but changed just enough that it's in keeping with the Torchwood Jack. I think she gets him right. Better than most.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

I liked Tosh's reaction when she realized the thing was sentient - inquisitive, in an academic way.

Re: Tosh/Owen, did you see the preview for the next episode (which promises to be *seriously* intense)?

Ianto's dialog is mainly on-liners, alas. But for an archivist, he's pretty good at kicking ass.

Rhys did so, so well! Also: threesome ahoy? It would be totally fucked up ... Anyway, I think understand better why Gwen wants to marry Rhys, why it actually isn't a bad idea. Because he finds out all this stuff, and they're ok with each other (or so it seems) very quickly. A strong bedrock of trust. And I can't *believe* Jack is letting her get away with that. But as both he and Rhys have observed, she's stubborn. Still. *shakes head* It's one thing to be a tight-knit team, but it's another to get co-dependent. Jack isn't the best person for the job, and the job isn't necessarily the best thing for him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I liked Tosh's reaction when she realized the thing was sentient - inquisitive, in an academic way.

I liked that, too. And Jack was all caught up in the caring.

Tosh/Owen, did you see the preview for the next episode (which promises to be *seriously* intense)?

Yes. Should be very interesting.

for an archivist, he's pretty good at kicking ass.

Very true. Loved the line, "Pray you don't die," when he zapped the guy in the head with the taser.

Rhys did so, so well! Also: threesome ahoy?

Dare I hope? I've been writing a Jack/Gwen/Rhys threesome that I haven't yet finished, and dammit, this story threw my continuity right off, but all my story needs is extra tweaking.

I really like the Gwen/Rhys relationship and I hope nothing damages that. My guess is that canonically nothing sexual will happen between Jack and Gwen (or Jack and Rhys) but this is the one show on air where I can't even be sure of that.

Jack isn't the best person for the job, and the job isn't necessarily the best thing for him.

Good point, in some ways; but he needs to focus on something much bigger than himself, and he needs a vehicle through which to be champion of Earth. Torchwood gives him that. I'm glad he doesn't make it more militaristic - even though he has the soldier's background, I think he's more comfortable with disorganization.

[msilverstar]

I really liked this ep as well, all of them were so strong, esp. wonderful Rhys! Your list is my list. :-)

But I'm pretty sure the pterodactyl is not male, because Myfanwy is a female name. (Surprising what I remember of Welsh culture, 30 years later. I did check with a web search though.)

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

It is female.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Glad you approve and agree!

I know "Myfanwy" is a female name, but they haven't used it yet on the show - unless I've missed something. I supposed it's so close to canon that it hardly matters, though. I'll try to stop thinking of the Pterodactyl as male. I'll try really hard.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yup, great episode!
Re: Owen and Tosh – weren't there previously hints of something unrequited there before, in series 1? Was it in Countrycide?

I want more pterodactyl scenes!

I thought it was amusing to see Owen removing the meat from the pizza, once they realised that alien meat had been flooding the market!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Owen and Tosh – weren't there previously hints of something unrequited there before, in series 1?

Yes, it was mentioned a few times - mostly in "Greeks Bearing Gifts", I think, when we saw that Tosh had photos of Owen around her house and on her fridge. Also in "Countrycide", when she said he was her last kiss (at Christmas) and Owen was shocked becuase it was ages before.

I want more pterodactyl scenes too. Such a beautiful creature! I loved the lines:

Rhys: I thought they were extinct.
Jack: They are, in this timeline.

If things can cross timelines coming through the Rift - which is to say, if the pterodactyl comes from a parallel world in which pterodactyls exist in our time, rather than from our distant past - doesn't that imply there could be crossover between Jack's world and Rose's world? Hmm?

Not that I'm advocating that, but can't help thinking about it!

amusing to see Owen removing the meat from the pizza

A lovely touch.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

it was amusing to see Owen removing the meat from the pizza

And Ianto eating it as-is. Cuz he's a hardass.

[damalan.livejournal.com]

I want to like this episode. I like your analysis. And some of it was excellent. Kai Owen shone, and his arguments with Eve Myles was fantastic - they felt authentic.

And yet... and yet... The whole felt less than the sum of its parts. The emotional tenor of some of the characters just didn't feel quite right. The Tosh/Owen scene really didn't feel like it should follow on from last week. John Barrowman was great in places, and in others was awful.

Don't get me wrong - I really enjoyed parts of it. Maybe it's because it followed on from three excellent episodes. But when others whose opinions I respect are so clear how much they enjoyed it, I am left wondering: what did I miss?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It would be surprising if we all liked the same episodes for the same reasons. Didn't you even like action!Ianto in this one? This one hit me emotionally in a way "To The Last Man" never did, maybe because I felt much more concern and interest for the poor alien creature than I did for Tommy - and I'm not even sure why. No real problems with last week - but I feel no urge to watch it again, and I've already watched "Meat" twice.

Maybe it's just the way we react to the writing style.

I did have another problem with this one, though, that I forgot to mention - and which you might understand. It's that there was no follow-up on the Jack/Ianto relationship that we got such a nice glimpse of last week. I am starved for more of that - and I think if I'd come in cold on this episode, I wouldn't have had any idea they were lovers. With the focus on Jack/Gwen and Jack/Rhys, Jack/Ianto got pretty much ignored - even though Ianto was, himself, a joy and a delight.

Put another way: I thought the emotional tenor of the charactes was perfect except for a dimension being missing - that which would, could, and should be supplied by Ianto - and it's a fairly important dimension.

The Tosh/Owen scene really didn't feel like it should follow on from last week.

I just wish they'd cut out the Tosh/Owen stuff altogether. I'd like Tosh with just about anyone else! (Note to self: finish that Tosh/Jack/Ianto story I'm working on, and finish it soon. Before it turns into an ongoing series!)

I am left wondering: what did I miss?

The stuff that wasn't there, perhaps? Like Ianto snogging Jack?

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I thought it was all right. Obviously you say things I didn't.

I did think Rhys was fantastic and the scene where confronted Gwen was excellent. And I have to say if Gwen had retconned him at the end I would possibly have had to divorce myself from the show, I would have hated it that much.

What I really don't quite get is why they had Jack being so rigid on the issue - it just didn't make sense to me.

Jack: "No. We're going to save it...

About bloody time was what I thought there. And we really could use an alien that is both sympathetic and survives at some point.

The Owen and Tosh scene felt off to me - I felt like Tosh was regressing and so that was worrying.

What I really didn't like was Jack rushing to watch Gwen and Rhys on the CCTV and going all teary-eyed. Didn't get it, it felt all wrong and wonky and very unJack-like.

[janne-d.livejournal.com]

*sigh* that should be "you saw things I didn't".

Stupid typo.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes. - I was very relieved that Gwen didn't Retcon Rhys. And even more relieved that Jack accepted this.

What did you think Jack was being rigid about? I'm not sure what you mean. He didn't seem any more rigid than usual to me.

About bloody time was what I thought there.

Yes! Exactly! Jack, you're a hero - so good to see you acting like one.

we really could use an alien that is both sympathetic and survives at some point.

I would totally love that. We get some in the books - which is maybe why I like the books so much. There are good aliens and bad aliens, and the good aliens, who become friends, often survive. I really like that.

Also, I don't want this to be the death-of-the-week show. Thank goodness Captain John Hart survived. Otherwise it would be.

The Owen and Tosh scene felt off to me - I felt like Tosh was regressing and so that was worrying.

I couldn't agree more. I wish they'd just drop the Tosh/Owen scenes altogether. They're like awkward teenagers together, no good will come of it, and I don't want to see it. Two possibilities: Tosh gets what she wants (Owen) and I'm heartbroken; or she fails to get him, and she's heartbroken. Faugh. Make it stop.

We've never seen a jealous or envious Jack before, and I think it should have been a little more subtle, but since I love the Jack/Gwen/Rhys theme, I was enjoying every second of it.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

I actually shed tears for the poor creature. But, I'm also one of those people that never quite recovered from that spate of sadistic Disney Animal films (Bambi, Where The Red Fern Grows, Old Yeller, etc). I liked all the stuff you liked. But, I couldn't stand the Weakly-Plotted-Dumbass-Hostage-Situation-So-We'll-Have-A-Show thing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I did love the creature. It made such sad noises.

Don't know what you mean about 'hostage situation' - ?

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

So did I, though I have been known to cook Disney Casserole (venison, duck and rabbit).

The whole meat thing, though, came over to me (Swansea born) as "Normal for NorfolkMerthyr"

[takhys]

A few of my IRC friends and I decided that Ianto has been taking night courses in 'Badassery', 'Witty Dialogue', and 'Making Your Workplace Work For You!'.

I adored Tofu the Spacewhale (as we named her), but my favourite part of the episode was the fight between Gwen and Rhys -- that was just so well done.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ianto has been taking night courses in 'Badassery', 'Witty Dialogue', and 'Making Your Workplace Work For You!'.

All of that - and he's learned his lessons well. Good courses they have there in Cardiff! Now all he needs is "how to handle your immortal lover from the future and not let him get away".

Tofu the Spacewhale

Good name. I like it.

my favourite part of the episode was the fight between Gwen and Rhys -- that was just so well done.

My goodness yes. Well written, and well acted by both. I loved the way it went. So tense - so convincing!

[magika83.livejournal.com]

5. My favourite quote from the episode.

7. Agree.

8. Me too! I wouldn't mind seeing it more often, Jack looks even hotter than usual in it.

11. I adore Ianto's dry comments. I also loved Owen's "We could always hide behind it."

12. I can't decide what I think about this. I don't like that it makes Tosh look like a little school girl, and although Owen wasn't quite as mean to her in season 1, saying she could do the work instead when she offered to stay up with him wasn't very nice. On the other hand, if done properly, they might be good for each other. I just can't see Owen in a long-term relationship with anyone, and I'm afraid Tosh would only end up getting hurt. And I don't want that.

There are some additional comments in my LJ.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My favourite quote from the episode.

One of my favourite quotes from the whole series. So beautifully delivered, too.

Ruth was quite adorable. I loved the way both she and Gwen brought Rhys a danish.

I also loved Owen's "We could always hide behind it."

Owen had some lovely moments. I liked him this episode - I'm not often really able to say that.

I don't like that it makes Tosh look like a little school girl

That's what I hate most about it, but it has other problems for me. One is that I really love Tosh and really don't love Owen and - it become a problematic pairing. I don't enjoy their scenes together and the idea that they might get more scenes together, and get closer, is depressing. More than that - if she's hankering after him, she isn't getting someone more interesting.

saying she could do the work instead when she offered to stay up with him wasn't very nice

Well, it's typical Owen. Remember him tricking Gwen into taking his shift at the hospital in "Sleeper" - offering her a cup of coffee then making her pay for it? He may have been chivalrous with Diane because he wanted to impress her, but Owen doesn't generally treat people well.

I just can't see Owen in a long-term relationship with anyone, and I'm afraid Tosh would only end up getting hurt.

She's either be hurt because of the way he'd treat her, or she'd be diminished by trying too hard to please him.