Torchwood: interesting review...

[fajrdrako]

I was just reading an extremely good review of Torchwood by Diane Werts on newsday.com which is not only favourable, but unusually insightful. For instance, it says of Captain Jack:

..."Torchwood" isn't broody about it. It's earthy and playful, and Jack's no-boundaries lust actually moves his every relationship beyond the physical to a distinctly spiritual connection. ...His lust is for life itself - and death, too - which means he doesn't rule anything out.

Seems to me that's a perception some viewers miss, but for me it's the prime attraction of the show.

And amazingly, Werts even likes Gwen Cooper as much as I do:

Gwen ... in particular radiates intelligence, and empathy, and curiosity, about what's out there and what lies inside Jack.

Comments

Lust for Death

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

That is a great review. The "um... enthusiasm" gives her away as a fangirl though! :-D

I think that if Jack didn't have vast appetites, his immortality would kill his soul.

His remark in KKBB about coming back to life each time "like being hauled across broken glass" was striking. Does it hurt him, losing his death over and over? And yet that radiant beautiful smile when Gwen woke him with a kiss in "End of Days"; the weak but triumphant laugh.

Re: Lust for Death

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The "um... enthusiasm" gives her away as a fangirl though!

It does - which is probably one of the reasons I loved it. One fangirl relating to another.

I think that if Jack didn't have vast appetites, his immortality would kill his soul.

Maybe. Or maybe in some ways (that he doesn't even realize)the immortality enhances his soul - makes him not just able to endure what others can't, but making the life he lives richer. Having just seen Blade Runner again, I was musing on issues of short and long lives. And the whole subject reminds me of Death's comment in The Sandman: "You get what everyone gets. A lifetime."

His remark in KKBB about coming back to life each time "like being hauled across broken glass" was striking.

Each time we've seen him revive from death, it seems to be somewhat painful, though briefly so. Presumably the Master, being sadistic, made it as painful as he could. Presumably the whole process isn't particulary easy. Jack has said there is nothing after death; but there are numerous ways of taking that, including that the death/rebirth process is something he can't remember when he revives.

that radiant beautiful smile when Gwen woke him with a kiss in "End of Days"; the weak but triumphant laugh.

I saw that as a bit of a turning point - Jack's realization that he really does love life and is glad to be back, and to be awakened by someone he cares about. (Trying to find a way to phrase that which doesn't sound like overt Jack/Gwen shipping.)

Re: Lust for Death

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

(Trying to find a way to phrase that which doesn't sound like overt Jack/Gwen shipping.)

I ship Jack/Everybody. :-D He's a lotta man.

Wait: the Master was killing him in addition to the torture? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

the death/rebirth process is something he can't remember when he revives

Quite possibly. I can't remember going under during various surgeries, and waking up is horrible, disorienting, painful; and there's just a black timeless void in between.

I wonder if he fears pain. I wonder if he still fears death.

Re: Lust for Death

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I ship Jack/Everybody. :-D He's a lotta man.

Yes - exactly! And while I have a strong preference for Jack/Doctor, I love Jack/Ianto, Jack/Jack... as you say, Jack/everyone! Including the canonical Jack/acrobats and Jack/executioners. What fun it all is.

I wonder if he fears pain.

He clearly doesn't like it, but I would guess that he learned not to fear pain back when he was a young soldier.

I wonder if he still fears death.

I think he mastered that fear practically before our eyes in Doctor Who: "I was much better off as a coward." But he faced death with aplomb (and a hypervodka) in "The Doctor Dances", so maybe he'd already dealt with that problem.

So what do I think Jack most fears? Interesting question! Losing those he loves, maybe.

Re: Lust for Death

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

And awww, Jack/Estelle. I love that story.

Losing those he loves, maybe.

The one inevitable thing for him. Yesssss. With the Doctor phoneboxing through time Jack can get close to "ever after" with him, but everyone else is a heartbeat and gone.

He fears his solitary fate too, going back to his final conversation with John Elliot.

I think he mastered that fear practically before our eyes in Doctor Who: "I was much better off as a coward." But he faced death with aplomb (and a hypervodka) in "The Doctor Dances", so maybe he'd already dealt with that problem.

But I wonder how much of his aplomb was just that: his native charm and cool covering his fear. I took his "cowardice" to be moral, not physical.

Re: Lust for Death

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack/Estelle. I love that story.

So do I. She was lovely.

With the Doctor phoneboxing through time Jack can get close to "ever after" with him, but everyone else is a heartbeat and gone.

Yes - at least with the Doctor, there's a certain element of duration.

But I wonder how much of his aplomb was just that: his native charm and cool covering his fear. I took his "cowardice" to be moral, not physical.

Yes, though it's interesting to look at different ways of interpreting the situation and his attitude to it. There's an interesting deleted conversation from "Captain Jack Harkness" in which the other Captain Jack says to our Jack that a person can't really be courageous without the possibility of death.

I think too that one can conquer one's fears but they come back - over and over. Jack may think he's over his fear of abandonment or pain or whatever - and may have done so - it doesn't mean it won't come back at the next opportunity.

Re: Lust for Death

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

deleted conversation from "Captain Jack Harkness" in which the other Captain Jack says to our Jack that a person can't really be courageous without the possibility of death.

Ouch. That had to hurt. Is that on the DVD?

I think too that one can conquer one's fears but they come back - over and over. Jack may think he's over his fear of abandonment or pain or whatever - and may have done so - it doesn't mean it won't come back at the next opportunity.

It does seem we're to have a glimpse of some kind of horrible pain this season, according to the preview-- him covering his eyes in the movie theater.

Re: Lust for Death

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ouch. That had to hurt.

Jack being Jack, his reaction isn't overt, but you can just imagine the unseen flinch. Another notch out of his carefully-recaptured self-esteem.

Is that on the DVD?

I believe so, though I haven't had a chance to explore the extras yet. I saw it on YouTube, I think.

It does seem we're to have a glimpse of some kind of horrible pain this season, according to the preview-- him covering his eyes in the movie theater.

I wonder....

Re: Lust for Death

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

a person can't really be courageous without the possibility of death

It just now occurs to me that this might be a large factor in his mama-bear protectiveness of his team: they risk All, every time. He can't. That climactic scene in "Countrycide" comes to mind-- his homicidal rage at seeing his team violated.


carefully-recaptured self-esteem

Jack doesn't seem like a guy with self-esteem problems. Or is that his strategy? Cover over the vulnerable bits with bluster? Is he ashamed of the man he was? Is he skeptical of the man he is?

At some point he's wounded Tosh, Gwen, and Ianto terribly; I wonder if he feels ...I don't know. Like I would feel if I killed the lovers of my coworkers. Even if the killing is justified, would their forgiveness be enough? Could I ever be their equal again?

Re: Lust for Death

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It just now occurs to me that this might be a large factor in his mama-bear protectiveness of his team: they risk All, every time.

Yes. They must seem very vulnerable to him.

That climactic scene in "Countrycide" comes to mind-- his homicidal rage at seeing his team violated.

That, and soldier's trained instincts.

Also... I think Jack wants to be a Champion of Earth, to borrow the Doctor's terminology. A protector. A threat to his Team is a threat to people of Earth in microcosm. He's fighting for all of Earth, even when it's Welsh cannibals or sex aliens or whatever, that he is fighting in any given instance. Hence his determination and ruthlessness in "Sleeper".

Jack doesn't seem like a guy with self-esteem problems.

I think he has huge self-esteem issues. He's a con man: he can always appear on top of things. But he's fully aware of his own mistakes, both moral and practical. I think there's a huge part of him which feels he's 'wrong', he's the guy who almost destroyed humanity with nanogenes sixty-six years ago, he's the one who was abandoned on the game station because even though he'd given his life to fight the enemy, he wasn't, on some level, good enough for the Doctor. Which is why he has to keep trying to be good enough, over and over.

Is he ashamed of the man he was?

I'm sure he is. Look at his conversation with Gwen in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" about being the man he is now, and the past should be left in the past. He's desperately trying th leave his own past behind him, especially the shady bits.

I would argue that nothing we have seen of him is all that bad, or is likely to be. But he's clearly done some things he hates and which he feels aren't up to the standards he wants to have - the standards he learned from the Doctor.

Is he skeptical of the man he is?

I think he has fears of failure - partly a fear that he isn't good enough for the job he has to do, partly a fear that the task will be too much for him or anyone - again, reasons to try harder.

At some point he's wounded Tosh, Gwen, and Ianto terribly

What are you thinking of here - in terms of wounding Gwen? He wounded Tosh by killing Mary, and wounded Ianto by killing Lisa - and I suppose, wounded Ianto again by leaving him with the Doctor. How has he wounded Gwen?

Even if the killing is justified, would their forgiveness be enough?

He offers forgiveness... I'm not sure if he thinks he deserves to receive it.

Re: Lust for Death

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Hence his determination and ruthlessness in "Sleeper"

Haven't seen that yet. We live in the past, here in the US. ;-)


the shady bits

The reference to his career as torturer...

Wounding Gwen: The rage she felt when he refused to open the rift to save Rhys, leading her to mutiny. Whether or not she was right to hold him responsible, that's pretty serious.

I think he would like to be forgiven. I'm pretty sure that making Gwen watch his sacrifice to Abbadon was meant to win her forgiveness (the kiss that brought him back to life, and the "thank you").

Ianto seems dangerous, still. What will it take to earn his forgiveness? Jack does seem to be aware of just how carefully he has to tread. He can't screw this up.

Re: Lust for Death

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

I think that icon is the best variation on the theme that I've seen so far!

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

Also?

Hi! I'm enjoying fangirling with you. :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Me too - isn't it fun?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Repositioning your last message... I hope this works! but don't see why it shouldn't.

the Jack/Gwen gun lesson

Lord, that nearly killed me dead, that was so hot. Pulling her back against his body, tracing down her arm... gah.

Breathing against her ear. Smiling as he held her. Her tension. Woo. Hot all the way.

Mushy stuff yay! An embrace, a silent moment of being really together.

Though I thought Ianto was in himself superb in "Meat", I really wanted to see some intimacy between him and Jack. And if there was so much as a glance that wasn't job-related, I missed it. Jack's attention was on Gwen, and then on the alien. Couldn't he spare a caress for Ianto? In passing?

Anything that shows them as more than just fuck-buddies.

I think we have bits that have shown (enough to be sure) how much Ianto loves Jack. But Jack's love for Ianto - ? There's as much that denies it by implication, as supports it. I believe that Jack loves Ianto, just not excusively. And I want to see more of it.

Yeah, that was a really blatant directorial choice there. There was a certain desperation in Jack's actions there that was nice to see

Which reminds me of the point I didn't make - another reason I want to suppose Jack loves Ianto already in "Cyberwoman". It's a bit of parallel structure. (And remind me to post this properly once I've thought it through.)

Two of the main thematic points of "Cyberwoman" were that (a) Jack was threatening to kill Ianto and (b) he was demanding that Ianto should kill Lisa. I think this was essentially the same pattern: in order to save the world, someone had to kill the person they loved, Lisa in Ianto's case, Ianto in Jack's case. Jack doesn't ask of his Team something he wouldn't do himself.

And as it happened, they killed Lisa, Ianto didn't have to do it himself, and Jack didn't have to kill Ianto.

Since I think Jack makes major decisions with his heart not his head, I think this was why he didn't fire Ianto, but kept him at Torchwood. Because he wanted him. And because he loved him, and wanted him to heal.

Granted, he was working against the clock, but the vehemence of that kiss was a revelation. "STAY WITH ME."

Yes.

You know, now you mention, I'd love for Jack to give Owen a flirt, just to see Owen flip out. :-D

I think Owen would love it. It's my belief that Owen has a thing for Jack which he's been hiding forever. That his rivalry with Ianto includes jealousy because it's Ianto that Jack likes enough to have sex with. That his misbehaviour through most of series 1 involved a certain amount of 'acting out' to get Jack's attention. That his lack of interest in Toshiko is related to this. That a lot of his promiscuity was to overcompensate for not getting Jack's sexual attention. That his taunt about Ianto wanting to be Jack's 'part-time shag' was because that's what Owen wants himself.

Note that Owen was the one who was sure Jack was gay in "Day One", and cared about the subject enough to express his curiosity.

And no, I can't prove any of this, there's nothing overt in the text - but I'm happy to believe the world of Torchwood and its employees revolves around Jack, emotionally speaking.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

pattern: in order to save the world, someone had to kill the person they loved, Lisa in Ianto's case, Ianto in Jack's case

Good catch! That plays to Jack's frenzy of rage near the end; when Ianto accuses him of monstrosity and Jack screams back that he did what he had to do. He was way beyond angry. Jack? Not a screamer.

Ianto's "show some fucking mercy" was about the last straw for Jack there. Ianto had no idea how much mercy Jack was already showing him.

Another moment that may fit into your proofs: the bar brawl. "This is for Ianto!" It stands out as a non-sequitur, unless as a knight fighting in his Lady's name. I forget which episode that is.

Oh, Owen. :-D I'm not sure I agree with you there, but it's nothing I can put my finger on. "You're a sick man, Harkness." Heh. I notice that they all let Jack get away with a non-answer! I myself am curious who his last pre-Ianto snog was. (Snog is such a great word. I love the British.)

Alas, I haven't seen "Meat" yet. I'll be downloading it tonight.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That plays to Jack's frenzy of rage near the end; when Ianto accuses him of monstrosity and Jack screams back that he did what he had to do. He was way beyond angry. Jack? Not a screamer.

Not usually, but this was pushing all his buttons. His love for Ianto, his desire for Ianto to be happy - he would have liked to be able to restore Lisa to Ianto, human as she had been, but he knew it was impossible. He had to hurt Ianto one way or another - and he hated it. It was heartbreaking for him. But he knew it was a situation Ianto has set up, and the universe was in jeopardy.

Ianto had no idea how much mercy Jack was already showing him.

Uh-huh. And no idea how terrible he felt about it all.

"This is for Ianto!" It stands out as a non-sequitur, unless as a knight fighting in his Lady's name. I forget which episode that is.

It's from "They Keep Killing Suzie", which is setting up their sexual relationship. It isn't entirely a non sequitur - the link is in Jack's next comment, "stun gun", which he is using, and which is the kind of wordplay Ianto was doing earlier. Jack is playing Ianto's word game. And yes, he's definitely thinking of him, and I like your thought that it's a gesture of honour to him.

I notice that they all let Jack get away with a non-answer!

And then Ianto distracted them by making them feel guilty. Even though he, technically, lied.

(Snog is such a great word. I love the British.)

Yes. I love "shag" too. So... playful.

I haven't seen "Meat" yet.

I'll be interested to hear what you think. Fans seem divided on it. I loved it, which has sparked some (proverbial) "lively debate".

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

And then Ianto distracted them by making them feel guilty. Even though he, technically, lied.

How did he lie?

Oh, Ianto's bitter, bitter smile: "you forgot". Which, while poignant, comes from a deeply selfish place of grief: Ianto, I doubt they're ever going to forget nearly being killed by your old girlfriend. He's so very young, and in this episode so bleedingly raw. (Which, uh, I guess fits evilly with the Theme of the Week.)

The eye-wrestling with Jack immediately after, which Ianto loses. Jack is, what? Warning him off the subject? Questioning his stability or loyalty? Angry that he made the team feel like shit? All of the above?

Oh, I'm easy: I love every episode. :-) My only goal is to be entertained and to love Jack. (And Ianto. And Gwen. And Owen. And Tosh.)

What's Jack doing in your new icon? I can't make it out.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

How did he lie?

Ianto's last kiss was with Jack, not Lisa. He was unconscious and taken by surprise, so it was only technically a lie. But still - it was not full disclosure on his part.

comes from a deeply selfish place of grief: Ianto, I doubt they're ever going to forget nearly being killed by your old girlfriend.

Nobody's forgotten anything and he's making them squirm because he's still hurting. Which might partly explain the long look that passes between him and Jack.

He's so very young, and in this episode so bleedingly raw.

Very much so.

Jack is, what? Warning him off the subject? Questioning his stability or loyalty? Angry that he made the team feel like shit? All of the above?

I don't think he's questioning his stability or loyalty, not at that point. Reproach, I think, because reminding them all of Lisa at that point really isn't a particularly good thing - and neither is playing on pity. He's also offering support - "you're hurting, we're here to help, so fight the pain and get over it" - and also a reminder: "You and I both remember that I kissed you, but you aren't admitting that. What do you think about it?"

My only goal is to be entertained and to love Jack. (And Ianto. And Gwen. And Owen. And Tosh.)

Yeah. Me too.

What's Jack doing in your new icon? I can't make it out.

I changed all my icons... have to remember which it is. Hmm. I think it's the one from "Greeks Bearing Gifts" where Jack comes in holding the Nasty Alien Prisoner Transporter Device which he will soon use on Mary to destroy her.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

I have to watch these in sequence again, but I wonder if "Countrycide" isn't the turning point in Ianto's feelings for Jack.

Ianto was risking everything (though it seems his life was worth very little to him at that point); devoted foot-soldier? a bid to prove his worth? or suicidal? I can read it any of these ways, but I tend to see a bit of suicidal nihilism.

God, he was so out of his depth. He found a degree of physical courage that he probably never suspected he had, but then... his face when the mask came off-- such mortal terror, face red and blotched with extreme emotion. :-(

I hurt for him then. But I think Ianto found, in extremis, that his soul still craved life.

And who has more life than Jack?

Jack who kissed him back into being.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wonder if "Countrycide" isn't the turning point in Ianto's feelings for Jack.

I think it might be. Ianto was pushed to the edge - and came through heroically. But he msut have thought he was done for. Then Jack rescued him heroically.

Yes, there is a hint of suicidal nihilism to Ianto at several points - as when he realizes the hopelessness of the situation in "Cyberwoman" - but I think Ianto is quite capable of reaching extemes of emotion in two directions - maybe not quite at once, but in close succession.

I think Ianto found, in extremis, that his soul still craved life.

I think so, too. There's nothing like facing death to make you sort out priorities. I think he discovered that his work still mattered to him, and that Jack did.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

OMG, just saw "Meat". FANTASTIC!

Though I thought Ianto was in himself superb in "Meat", I really wanted to see some intimacy between him and Jack. And if there was so much as a glance that wasn't job-related, I missed it. Jack's attention was on Gwen, and then on the alien. Couldn't he spare a caress for Ianto? In passing?

Okay, I saw (or imagined) more J/I allusion than you.

--Ianto's smirk at "we're all sad and single".

--Ianto gazes up at Jack --was that a hint of a smile?-- at Owen's scoffing about relationships with "people who know what we do", since "we're the only ones who work here."

--After Rhys is shot, and Ianto frees himself to fight the guy for the gun, Jack goes batshit. "NOOOO!!!!"

In general, I loved this episode. I loved Jack finally sympathizing with an alien creature. I loved poor Tosh trying so hard with Owen. I loved Owen, period. Who is this new, chastened Owen? I love him! I always love it when Gwen kicks Jack's ass, and so does Jack. Loved Jack's remark about eating alien meat. :-D And not to be too shallow, I loved Ianto in a crisp white shirt, waistcoat, and overcoat. ROWR.

Again we see that Ianto just can't put on the "game face" when it comes to mortal danger. I was rewatching "Countrycide" earlier; I had forgotten that scene in the creepy basement where Ianto twits Tosh over "that face you all have", like the danger doesn't matter.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

OMG, just saw "Meat". FANTASTIC!

It is, isn't it? An instant favourite. Loved it.

On second viewing, I saw more Jack/Ianto interaction and implication than I saw at first. Including all the things you mention.

I loved Jack finally sympathizing with an alien creature.

I think he must be very open-minded about aliens. He's known some terrible ones, and some extremely good ones. He can't pre-judge them: he has to protect Earth against the bad ones - and then sometimes protect the good ones against Earth.

Who is this new, chastened Owen? I love him!

Maybe he's a Skrull and the real Owen is on some distant planet...

Though really, I like to think that Owen is the result of Captain Jack's loving treatment and good example.

I always love it when Gwen kicks Jack's ass, and so does Jack.

Oh, absolutely!

Loved Jack's remark about eating alien meat.

I loved that, and I loved the way they each enjoyed it - Jack enjoying a good memory (or two) and enjoying a little sexual tease with Gwen; Gwen getting a kick out of it herself.

I loved Ianto in a crisp white shirt, waistcoat, and overcoat. ROWR.


Absolutely! Now I loved Ianto in casual clothes in "Countrycide", but this spiffy high-end Ianto completely enthralls me. More of this, please!

Again we see that Ianto just can't put on the "game face" when it comes to mortal danger.

I loved the way, towards the end of the episode, he was efficient and decisive - the opposite of his waffling and hesitation with Blowfish only a few episodes ago.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

towards the end of the episode, he was efficient and decisive

PRAY THEY SURVIVE. If I hadn't already been Ianto's girl, he would have won me there. Holy hell, Ianto-- *speechless*

opposite of his waffling and hesitation with Blowfish

Well, to be fair, he had to decide to KILL Blowfish. It's less of a moral quandary to stun a guy. Though this is the same guy who shot his coworker. I don't know.

Someone posted a comment that she was a little upset with Jack for taking over Ianto's decision about Blowfish; robbing Ianto of his potency. Although the business of "who shot Blowfish" was merely an amusing dramatic device, it does bear thinking about.

On second viewing, I saw more Jack/Ianto interaction and implication than I saw at first.

Such as?

I'm hoping to watch it again tonight, and have more useful things to say about it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If I hadn't already been Ianto's girl, he would have won me there. Holy hell, Ianto-- *speechless*

I've always had degrees of mixed feelings about Ianto, but I totally loved him here.

he had to decide to KILL Blowfish. It's less of a moral quandary to stun a guy

True, and unlike Jack, Ianto has never been a soldier.

Someone posted a comment that she was a little upset with Jack for taking over Ianto's decision about Blowfish; robbing Ianto of his potency.

I would argue that by hesitating, Ianto had already made a decision - hesitation was a decision and by not shooting Blowfish at once Ianto left the field open.

it does bear thinking about.

I am still somewhat disgusted with Ianto for hesitating there - for letting Blowfish get to him. Incompetence. Ianto has been in Torchwood long enough to know better, to be able to make life and death decisions - decisions of killing or not killing.

Jack/Ianto interaction: A few glanges and even smiles I'd missed the first time. And, even more, a certain smoothness in working together.

I'm hoping to watch it again tonight, and have more useful things to say about it.

Excellent - I'm hoping to watch it while doing exercises tomorrow.