Torchwood: a few more Sleeper comments...

[fajrdrako]

I watched Torchwood 2.02 "Sleeper" again this evening while doing yoga.

1. I love, totally love, the scene between Jack and Gwen at the end. "Keep doing what we do."



2. I love the ongoing joke of a Torchwood team member making an absolute statement and immediately being proved wrong. "No one knows Torchwood like I do," says Ianto - but Beth does. "There's no way to get in touch with Jack," says Toshiko, and then Jack radios them. I loved that, too - so retro-technology, so World War II in style. Go Jack.



3. "Oh yeah? Factor that into your plans."



4. The Torchwood Team shooting Beth reminded me forcibly of the Torchwood Team shooting Lisa in "Cyberwoman", for similar reasons. The killing of a dangerous alien who had once had a normal human life.



5. I loved it that Jack touched Gwen's shoulder as she was grieving over Beth's body.



6. Jack should wear blue shirts all the time.



7. I ponder the exchange:

   Beth: Your bedside manner's rubbish.
   Gwen: His manners in bed...are atrocious. Well, uh, at least that's what I've heard.
   Ianto: Oh they are. I remember this one time...
   Jack: (Clears throat forcefully).

   Of course I don't know what they are thinking there: has Ianto been sharing the secrets of Jack's bed with Gwen? Seems a little hard to believe. A guess: Gwen is teasing Jack. Ianto ups the stakes by teasing Jack by half-outing himself. Ianto seems somewhat hyper these days. That doesn't look so much like a revelation of truth as a sort of pointed irony. But what does it mean?
   
   There's another irony in it, that just before seeing this episode I'd read laurab1's story "A little bit older, but not so worldly wise", which starts with the sentence, "Jack Harkness, if you took all four of us to bed with you, you’d still be a gentleman about it," Gwen had told him... and frankly, I believe it. Not that Jack couldn't be outrageous and barbaric in bed if he wanted to be; it's hard to imagine him being gentlemanly, for example, with Captain John. But Jack is by nature considerate, so I generally speaking agree with laurab1's assessment - it's a bit of a shock to see Gwen and Ianto contradicting it. It's as if this episode wanted to show the other sides of Jack - he's usually tender-hearted, so we get to see his harsh side here.¹




8. Jack: With a dashing hero like me in the lead, how can we fail?
   Ianto: He is dashing.

   I love that, of course, but I'm not sure how to interpret the glance Jack and Gwen then exchange. Are they simply afraid they're not on time? Is it something to do with whether she thinks he's dashing? Does he regret that she sees through his façade, or regret that she doesn't?



9. I like the way Tosh dresses in this one. It's sort of... prim and proper. In a very sexy way. How does she do that?


~ ~ ~

¹ Did I say I was going to be brief here? I guess I lied.

Comments

[raissad.livejournal.com]

Thanks for transcribing the dialogue in #7. I watched and rewatched that bit and just couldn't make out Ianto's last line.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes - sometimes lines become clear on second viewing, sometimes not. I'm having even worse difficulties with the French versions because I'm a little less familiar with with language. A dropped voice on a vowel can completely throw me off a whole sentence, especially if there's an unfamiliar word to confuse me.

Too bad we can't get instant transcripts of everything. For discussion purposes.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

"There's no way to get in touch with Jack," says Toshiko, and then Jack radios them.

I laughed at that. I do get Tosh, though; I mean, we've become so accustomed to the modern conveniences, that when we lose them we get all flustered and forget that there were other ways to communicate, once upon a time.

It took reading someone else's post to get the full meaning of the "bed manners" conversation. Gwen's Welsh accent occasionally trips me up.

it's a bit of a shock to see Gwen and Ianto contradicting it. It's as if this episode wanted to show the other sides of Jack - he's usually tender-hearted, so we get to see his harsh side here.

Yeah, a bit. I can't help wondering if they don't mean something more simple like... he eats in bed and gets crumbs all over? I don't know.

And we definitely do get to see his harsher side in this episode. I wasn't surprised by this at all, and I've been expecting to see a darker side of Jack since last week's peek into his backstory. But I know a bunch of people were rather shocked and thought it was out of character for him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I do get Tosh, though; I mean, we've become so accustomed to the modern conveniences, that when we lose them we get all flustered and forget that there were other ways to communicate

I like it that they thought of tin cans and bits of string, but didn't think of radio waves. And it would be so natural for Jack. I like the way he straddles both high- and low-tech, with his experience.

It took reading someone else's post to get the full meaning of the "bed manners" conversation.

Do you understand what they were thinking any better than I do?

I can't help wondering if they don't mean something more simple like... he eats in bed and gets crumbs all over?

Hee. Cute idea. Seems to me it's an odd passage in a mostly well-written episode because rather than making it clear what the interaction is, it makes it... odd. If it's just a joke, I don't quite get it.

I know a bunch of people were rather shocked and thought it was out of character for him.

We've seen bits of it before. I think he's has a long and hard life and in times like this, it shows. The lighthearted Jack isn't all there is - and I think he's had to fight to keep both sides of himself in balance.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

If it's just a joke, I don't quite get it.

Obviously Ianto should have been allowed to complete his thought!

I can't imagine, though, that Jack is anything but a considerate lover. (Ianto wouldn't stick around if he weren't!) I think it's more a jab at Jack than an actual criticism of anything he has or hasn't done. Gwen attempts to make a bad joke/pun, gets carried away, and ends up causing Ianto to-- as you so nicely put it-- up the stakes.

But I do wonder if Ianto even intended to finish the thought. He must have known that Jack would cut him off, and he isn't actually the most forthcoming anyway...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ianto should have been allowed to complete his thought!

Can't help wishing - then we'd have known what it would have been.

I can't imagine, though, that Jack is anything but a considerate lover.

Given what we've seen of him, yes, definitely. Of course he would also be creative, experimental, mischeivous and amusing - but definitely considerate.

I think it's more a jab at Jack than an actual criticism

I agree, especially since the original comment was from Gwen, who (though she no doubt wishes otherwise) doesn't have first-hand knowledge of Jack in bed. Whether or how she has second-hand knowledge is ... debatable.

[cionaudha.livejournal.com]

creative, experimental, mischeivous and amusing - but definitely considerate

I wish I had his phone number. ;-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wish I had his phone number. ;-)

Don't we all.

The Doctor and Martha have it. Lucky them.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

2) Does that happen anywhere else?

7 and 8) Oooh, way to see beyond the clever, and do a close reading of all those looks and body language!

'Hyper' is the right word for Ianto. Maybe he's been drinking too much coffee ...I've seen ppl at torch_wood speculating that Ianto's chirpyness or hyperness or whatever is intended to make his eventual breakdown all the more unexpected or poignant or whatever.

9) I am slowly but surely coming to like Tosh. She doesn't have everyone else's drama, which in RL would make her the most desirable to me as a friend. I'll still like her after something disillusions me about Ianto, or I'm disappointed by the writing or something.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Does that happen anywhere else?

Not that I've noticed. I think it's a James Moran touch.

'Hyper' is the right word for Ianto. Maybe he's been drinking too much coffee ...

This teaboy is wired.

I've seen ppl at torch_wood speculating that Ianto's chirpyness or hyperness or whatever is intended to make his eventual breakdown all the more unexpected

They think he's going to have a breakdown? Why?

She doesn't have everyone else's drama, which in RL would make her the most desirable to me as a friend.

Sometimes I adore Tosh and sometimes she irritates me and mostly I just like her and wish she'd do more. She's doing more this year, so I'm happy. I find Tosh sometimes very sexy indeed. Other times... too weak and indecisive. Definitely a character I enjoy and I'm working on a few Tosh stories.

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

They think he's going to have a breakdown? Why?

It's a spoiler from JB's autobiography. It's here (http://community.livejournal.com/jackxianto/473849.html), linked just in case someone doesn't want to know.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Ah. I hadn't come across that yet. How very interesting.

And yes, it would fit what we've seen.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

Re: breakdown. They think he has PTSD, or something like that. I really didn't see a breakdown coming on in Sleeper, and Last Man shows Ianto as being on a more even keel than ever before.

And we'll talk about Tosh in Last man elsewhere I'm sure : D

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

we'll talk about Tosh in Last man elsewhere I'm sure

I look forward to it. Haven't seen "Last Man" yet - probably tonight.

I like it that Ianto is getting better lines. Whatever happens with him - should be interesting.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

"Whatever happens with him - should be interesting."

Whatever kind of sex he has with Jack - should be interesting ; )

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Whatever kind of sex he has with Jack - should be interesting ; )

Of course. Stopwatch or no stopwatch.

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

I think we need to think what Ianto would consider atrocious manners in bed. Maybe Jack wears socks to bed, doesn't care about wet spots or leaves used condoms lying around (that last one would certainly get to Ianto.)

I also saw it as Ianto staking claim at Jack. "You people may speculate with Jack's sex life but I'm the one who knows" Ianto may think that Jack's bedside manner is just fine but who is going to contradict him.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think we need to think what Ianto would consider atrocious manners in bed.

The mind boggles.

I also saw it as Ianto staking claim at Jack. "You people may speculate with Jack's sex life but I'm the one who knows"

My current conclusion is that this was half of it. I think he had two motives:

(1) A message to Jack: "I have power in this relationship too. Don't underestimate me."

(2) A message to the others: "I've slept with Jack, he's mine."

[mitzi007.livejournal.com]

It will be interesting to see how Jack/Ianto relationship turns out if Ianto really is as possessive as he sometimes seems. If we learned anything from the Lisa debacle it is that he takes commitment veeery seriously.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It will be interesting to see how Jack/Ianto relationship turns out if Ianto really is as possessive as he sometimes seems.

Poor Ianto: If he feels possessive, he's going to have difficulties with Jack. Because even if Jack never touches another soul, he's not a man to hide his appreciation of people on any level.

If we learned anything from the Lisa debacle it is that he takes commitment veeery seriously.

I think Jack does too, but Jack is neither monogamous nor conventional. Ianto knows that; but of course, falling in love isn't a conscious or rational process.

[beccaelizabeth]

"There's no way to get in touch with Jack," says Toshiko
She's not actually wrong - with the equipment they know he has they can't contact him, but he gets new equipment and can contact them.
But they do look wrong, yeah.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Either way, I think it's a cute scene.

[jo02]

5. After the amount of drippy moralizing Gwen did in this episode I chose to interpret Jack's touching her shoulder to mean "come on, get up, there's work to do" instead of "geez, yes, I sympathize so much, since you've been such a paragon of humanity these last couple of days."

8. They didn't share a glance after Jack's comment about being a dashing hero. He was trying to lighten the atmosphere - like his comment last week about messing with that level of perfection - and he glanced over to see how Gwen took it. But as usual she was too busy being the snooty holder of the moral high ground to join in his lame joke. I was SO glad a few minutes later when Jack mowed down the guy/alien sleeper in the TT-SUV, as much for my own enjoyment as to see the predictable look of outrage on Gwen's face.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I can see that you don't much like Gwen! So much of it is in the interpretation, and I don't see her as being either snooty or paragonish.

Yes, his touch could have meant "get up" as well, and it could have meant both "get up, there's work to do" and "I sympathize because I'm grieving over Beth, too".

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

This episode made me so happy in so very many ways...The fact that Ianto got to have fun dialouge being in the top 2 of reasons....

That bit about the phones not working, so using my own version the next time the system goes down at work lol.

And as for that look between jack/gwen after the dashing line, I took it to show that even JACK doubted himself a bit there, and Gwen saw it...the others didn't beleive him, but probably thought he beleived in himself, but she was looking him in the face and he couldn't block it.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The fact that Ianto got to have fun dialogue being in the top 2 of reasons....

Yes, that was absolutely delightful.

I took it to show that even JACK doubted himself a bit there, and Gwen saw it...the others didn't beleive him, but probably thought he beleived in himself

Yes, I would agree with that interpretation. For one thing, it was very like Gwen does herself, smiling cheerily and saying, "It's going to be all right," when she fears it isn't. This was Jack's version of the same thing, and she knew it, and Jack knew that she knew it. Which is okay. I like that.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

As for the exchange you ponder, about Jack's manners in bed... seems to me that Gwen is merely trying to get a rise out of him; seems to me that this bit of hers is nothing except a way to exploit an "entry point" in the ongoing/evolving interactional situation. And it also seems to me that Ianto speaks up maybe in part to regain his "dibs" from Gwen, whom he has no idea whether she's been there or is just talking, and in part to just tease Jack into doing exactly what he then does: put a stop to it before they take too much more of his dignity away from him. Just a thought.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

seems to me that Gwen is merely trying to get a rise out of him

Yes. It's a bit of a tease - misplaced, tactless, and a little too revealing, because it betrays the interest Gwen has in Jack's sex life. But then - Ianto's chiming in is a little too near the bone (or maybe close to the heart!) and Jack quashes the conversation.

I'd love to know whether Gwen knows Jack is sleeping with Ianto - I hear that Eve Myles has said she does, but on the show, I see no sign of it. I'd like a reaction of some sort: teasing, or acceptance, or jealousy.

Maybe I'll get it, maybe not. It's fun to speculate!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Gwen is just so utterly cool about such things! I think of how she told Toshiko that "love suited you," totally accepting (or, maybe, totally disregarding) the twist on the situation that other people may have keyed on first. One more reason Gwen is nearly perfect!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Your words are music to my ears, especially since someone on one of my mailing lists was picking on Gwen today - I forget why. Silly people! Gwen is lovely, and loving, and smart. And she has stopped lying to Rhys.

And I really should finish off that Jack/Gwen/Rhys threesome story I started. Oh for more time to write!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Hee. Your reply is music to mine.

More time to write... could you make use of a device that (let me see how I can describe it) -- you write with a pen on a pad, or on any piece of paper, and what you write is transferred to electronic storage for the next time you get to your computer. The pad is one device -- you write on notebook paper on it, with the special pen, and together they transmit your writing to the software; in the other, the pen itself is the only thing needed, as you can write on anything at all and it still saves the writing to software. I was asking, are you interested in either? Would that help you out with "no time to write," or are these not helpful mechanical aids but just intriguing toys that you wouldn't have a use for? Trying to get an idea of ... well, never mind, but both are rather inexpensive, and I do love ThinkGeek and XtremeGeek, such lovely fun catalogs with such unexpected ideas in them!

Gwen is an icon. Sheez, shome people are so silly <[g]. Mindblind, I'd even say! heh.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I don't think electronics are going to help withe the 'time to write' thing. The medium doesn't matter; I can write on the computer, or with a pen in a notebook, or however: the basic pattern of ideas and words flowing (or lurching) from the brain is the important thing, and that isn't going to change with different technology. (Though using a computer is easer than pen-and-paper, on the whole.) No, the time is needed for thought and concentration and recording the words - and the speed of that doesn't change.

I can understand why not everyone sees Gwen as sympathetic and loveable, but - she is. Jack knows it! You do! I do!

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

I like the way Tosh dresses in this one. It's sort of... prim and proper. In a very sexy way. How does she do that?

Oh, god, she does it by being Tosh. And so few people could pull it off!

I love seeing the Torchwood Declassified segments in the DVDs, as for one thing it is utterly delightful to see the actors being themselves -- sometimes subtle, sometimes vast differences then become clear between the actors and the characters they play. Eve Myles has a totally different accent, Burn Gorman assumes a new personality like a suit of flashy clothes, Naoko Mori loses her self-assurance and becomes brilliant in a fascinatingly almost-brittle way, like beautiful ice formations. Delightful.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

she does it by being Tosh

Wonderful to see, isn't it?

I love seeing the Torchwood Declassified segments in the DVDs

I haven't looked at them yet. I will! I think I saw most of it when they originally aired, but of course I don't know if they've added new stuff - and forgotten a good bit of it all, anyway. Treats in store!

Yes, I like the way you can tell, sometimes at a glance, when you're looking at the actor, or the actor playing the character. And John Barrowman - it's often as if he goes from being a mature-ish 40 year old (Jack) to an overgrown 12-year-old (himself) in the blink of an eye!

I love it that technology has us at a point where we can watch these things.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

And John Barrowman - it's often as if he goes from being a mature-ish 40 year old (Jack) to an overgrown 12-year-old (himself) in the blink of an eye!

Yes, exactly it! As in when he is talking about Greeks Bearing Gifts, and it not being that big a deal that Toshiko gets an alien girlfriend, because (to paraphrase) everybody likes a little flirt, a little attention, a little this-n-that, no? Done with a cute little toss of his head and the most amazing smile flashing all over his face, starting with his eyes. Utterly adorable.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it not being that big a deal that Toshiko gets an alien girlfriend, because (to paraphrase) everybody likes a little flirt, a little attention, a little this-n-that, no?

Aww, so cute, and so true.