Torchwood and Doctor Who: Another thought...

[fajrdrako]

This one's about values.

A few spoilers for "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang", so I'll

Motives. I was thinking about motives, and the currency that was important to significant characters. This was sparked by the dialogue between Ianto and Captain John when Ianto asked what Captain John was doing this for, and Captain John said sex and glory mean nothing, the only worthwhile thing is money.

So that's what he's after.

Made me wonder what the motivation of others is. For the Doctor, I'd say 'adventure' - learning new things by way of having adventures. He loves to fix the broken situations, but that isn't what he's travelling for: he's travelling to see what's out there.

For Jack? Love. It's all about love. Honour is important to him, but what matters most to him is loving and being loved, both in the personal sense of earning the love of those he values, and the abstract sense of loving the planet he has adopted.

For Gwen? Curiosity leads her on.

Toshiko? Analysis.

Owen? Getting his kicks. No, really, I can't think of better than that.... I'm trying to see another way of looking at it but coming up blank. Owen likes shocking people, he likes winning, he likes success.

Ianto? 'Love' in a specific narrow sense: he needs someone or something to care for and take care of. Torchwood One; Lisa. Torchwood 2; Jack. He has abstract loyalties too (like saving the world) but he's at his best when serving someone personally: bringing Jack coffee, carrying his coat, acting as his valet - he likes to be needed.

Comments

[rivier.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, good thinking!

I'd agree about John: I thnk his character was set up as a functional (and very entertaining) caricature, which means that his motivation has to be pretty linear and uncomplicated. Money or the power and gratification and freedom that money buys, that makes sense.

I agree that Jack seems to be driven by love - both in the physical / carnal and metaphysical / spiritual senses! It's also satisfying to me to think of pre-DW Jack as a (less truly psychopathic) version of John, essentially amoral and focused on pleasure maybe rather than power - and that the impact of the Doctor as a catalyst in his life was to transmute him through love, into a purer man. The Doctor turned Jack's old selfishness completely around, and made him focus all that restless energy on the love of others: John is trapped for the rest of his life in the love of self alone. It'd be tragic, if I didn't think he was such a bastard.

Gwen? Curiosity, maybe, but I think she's also in search of herself and some better feeling of what that is. Remember she started out as this clever but essentially submissive, compliant policewoman, uncomfortable but still prepared to stay wthin the chauvanist working environment, having ambitions for the nice man and the nice family at some point... Her horizons were narrow, and she understood what she was in a narrow world. Now that Jack has opened them into infinity, she's trying to figure out how far she herself can go, I think. So 'curiosity' but on an almost galactic scale!

I think Toshiko craves knowledge, because she sees it as the key to controlling the random and dangerous forces around her. Think about how snippy she was when she heard about Gwen's first kiss with Owen! Or when Jack was keeping her in the dark back in 1943. That was the annoyance of someone who's used to being in command of more of the facts than anyone else. I think it speaks of a certain unworldliness in her, that she values the rational (which she can master) over the impulsive and emotional (which she cannot, yet at any rate). If you think about it, Mary tempted her with the two things Tosh couldn't resist - ultimate knowledge of the thoughts of everyone, and uncomplicated love offered willingly and eagerly. Poor Toshkio!

I like Owen a wee bit more than you, I reckon, so I don't think he's as superficial as you suggest! Like Gwen, I see him as also motivated by a search for self-identity, and I think some of that may even be class-related. Owen comes over to me as someone who's brilliant, but chippy - he's had to fight for every single thing he's ever achieved, academic and career success and status... too much incessant fighting does a lot of damage to a soul! I think Owen's a man searching for what will make him feel secure or at peace with himself, and as of the new season, he's starting to think that thrill-seeking isn't the way to find that security. I think that's why Jack dismissing him from Torchwood was such a blow, because Torchwood is the one place he's started to feel secure within, respected and worthwhile. And if that's right, Jack's forgiveness must have been of enormous value to him - maybe even as catalytic as the Doctor forgiving and saving Jack?

As for Ianto... I agree that it's love, though I don't think it's as much that he's more narrowly-focused than Jack, as that he's just so much younger and less experienced. I'm influenced by things GDL has said in interviews - that Ianto wants to be like Jack, that he looks to him as a mentor: also that he's desperate to prove that he's loyal beyond question, "the good soldier". Maybe what motivates him is simply the desire to 'be good' in some way that's meaningful to those he loves? Ah Ianto, still such a cryptic creature!

part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

set up as a functional (and very entertaining) caricature, which means that his motivation has to be pretty linear and uncomplicated.

That simplifies things, and it's an introduction to the character, anyway. Note that as the episode went on, Captain John became more complex and contradictory, and it's clear that money isn't his only motivator - if it was, he wouldn't have been messing with Captain Jack anyway. He wanted to see him again. In the end, he wanted to stay - not for money but because he did see the value of what Jack had - a home and a team and a purpose. Or maybe just because he really liked Jack, and it isn't the same without him.

The point being, of course, that money is a false value in anyway: in setting it up as his motivation and goal, Captain John was just setting himself up to accelerate his own downward spirals. What would he spend money on? Drugs, sex, power? He couldn't buy Jack back, or turn back time to better days for himself.

It's also satisfying to me to think of pre-DW Jack as a (less truly psychopathic) version of John, essentially amoral and focused on pleasure maybe rather than power -

Jack was never psychopathic, though I'm sure he went through some hard times and bad times. Hedonistic at times, certainly, but from everything we've seen, Jack was from childhood moved by concern for others (e.g., his friend who was tortured) and attempts to make things better (e.g., fight against the 'worst creatures you could imagine'). Even when we meet him as an apparently amoral con man in "The Empty Child", he says he doesn't hurt people - and he means it. Which is one reason that he's so devastated that his actions have such a terrible result - he had no idea what the Chula nanogenes would do; they'd always seemed benign.

So yes, he lied, he cheated, he stole, he tricked - but he didn't hurt people. Sounds to me like a man trying to find standards to cling to, however artificial. Maybe a man looking for the Right Kind of Doctor without even knowing what it is he's looking for.

the impact of the Doctor as a catalyst in his life was to transmute him through love, into a purer man

Yes, absolutely. And Jack knew it and jumped at the chance. With the sense of 'this is what I should be, this is what I want to be'. He was ready to die to save London, and though the Doctor was the one who made it possible for him to have that chance of heroic redemption, I think that it's maybe the choice he would have made even if the Doctor hadn't been part of it - Jack is hedonistic to the core but in no way selfish or (despite his own self-judgement) cowardly. But I can see how he'd think he was.

But the Doctor gave Lack not just love, but a good example and a code and a purpose and a new lease on life, and a resolve to live up to his better values. Turned his life around - and effortlessly forgave Jack's sins of the past.

Part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

John is trapped for the rest of his life in the love of self alone. It'd be tragic, if I didn't think he was such a bastard.

The tragedy is the self-destruction he's engaged in. Self-hate, maybe? But not exclusively self-focussed: I think he still loves, values, and admires Jack, which is why he wanted to stay. So there's room there for redemption, if it isn't too late. Other glimmers of it: he didn't kill the Torchwood team, though he could have.

Galactic curiosity - yes, that's Gwen! I think she's fascinated by the other, bigger concept of the universe which Jack has shown her - and that it's mixed up with her curiosity and fascination with Jack himself. She's curious about everyone, but the scope of Jack's differences are particularly alluring.

Toshiko craves knowledge, but I was trying to differentiate that she doesn't just want information, she wants scientific knowledge - she wants to analyze and use data, to get reproducible results, and to understand things. She's a classic scientist. Gwen, for example, wants knowledge too, but puts it to entirely different uses. I agree about Tosh's use of the rational/irrational - she keeps trying to rationalize the irrational, or avoid it. I hope Toshiko gets more happiness in this series than last.

I don't think he's as superficial as you suggest!

I hope not! You're quite right that I don't like Owen much and don't have him figured out. Your insight is welcome. Good point about his fighting for his achievements, and I think it's clear he has not done this fighting by conforming. I'm surprised they haven't told us yet why he left regular medical practice.

if that's right, Jack's forgiveness must have been of enormous value to him - maybe even as catalytic as the Doctor forgiving and saving Jack?

I'm hoping this is the case! It's certainly the same sort of 'second chance' and Owen has clearly done a lot of thinking, and a lot of trying to reassess and improve himself. Which is great. I may even end up liking him.

I agree that it's love, though I don't think it's as much that he's more narrowly-focused than Jack, as that he's just so much younger and less experienced.

Well, no one is as old as Jack - no one human, anyway. And even at the same age, no one is as experienced as Jack. One of my problems with Ianto is that he seems so very young to me - how old is he supposed to be? I've heard 23, but I'm not sure how canonical that is. In any case, he always seems to me to act as if he were still a teen, and I have to keep reminding me that he isn't. He is sweet and I love him, but he seems immature, unformed, and naive - much more than an intelligent 23-year-old with his experience should be. It seems to me that Ianto really hasn't grown into his own personality yet - which isn't a bad thing, lots of people are slow to find out what they're like - and I love the way he has taken Jack as his mentor and role model. There are a lot of ways in which Jack is good for him.

Ianto is resourceful. It will be interesting to see how he matures.

[puritybrown.livejournal.com]

I actually think Captain John was trying to persuade himself when he said money was the only worthwhile thing. I think he's a shattered, directionless person at that point; nobody builds up a catalogue of addictions like his without wanting to hide from their lives and themselves. He had hoped that he could get Jack back, and maybe find a direction by proxy; even at the end, after being rejected, he's trying to grab on to Jack's coattails and be part of his story -- which doesn't work: you have to have your own story, even if it intersects with other people's.

Jack, I think, was trying to do something similar with the Doctor, which was one reason why he was so distant in the first series; latching on to someone else is a great way of giving yourself the illusion of substance in your life while actually draining your life of all substance. Having finally met the Doctor again, he's come to understand that he had a purpose of his own all along, even as he thought he was dependent on the Doctor. (One of the Doctor's functions is to wake people up out of dreams of dependency; get them to live lives of their own.) So he doesn't let John try hanging around -- mostly because he just plain doesn't want him around, but also because if John is ever to become a decent person, he has to find his own way.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

Word. John lies all the time, and he probably lies to himself. And the whole thing was at least as much about Jack as about money. The way Jack joked about John's addictions maybe minimized them - I can't read between the lines of Jack's jokes in that scene; frustrating - but John is one fucked up man. The way he was chugging the alcohol, that was to quiet his fear, bc you can bet he was terrified, seeing Jack agian, though he'd never admit it to himself. I think John can be seen as a snarkily amusing villain, but it's actually kind of horrible as well.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

the whole thing was at least as much about Jack as about money.

I agree with Jack. I found myself thinking of the line from the Bujold novels - when torturer/rapist Ges Vorrutyer pauses in his ministrations to Cordelia to talk excitedly about Aral Vorkosigan and she thinks, "What is Aral doing at the centre of this one's madness?"

Jack's in John's head, and let's hope it does him some good!

The way Jack joked about John's addictions maybe minimized them - I can't read between the lines of Jack's jokes in that scene

Mostly, I think Jack is fishing for information. And getting it. He's drawing a contrast between John as he was when Jack knew him, and between himself and John. I think the joking is because he's shocked, but doesn't want to lose the upper hand - insofar as he has it. Doesn't want John to see his real reactions.

The way he was chugging the alcohol, that was to quiet his fear, bc you can bet he was terrified,

And you can bet that Jack saw that, too!

I think John can be seen as a snarkily amusing villain, but it's actually kind of horrible as well.

An interesting and frighteningly plausible portrait of someone out of control with no brakes.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

*shudder* Yeah, John and Ges are frighteningly familiar.

Re: Jack's joking. You're right. mygod, but he's a cool customer, to in effect interrogate like that. If Jack actually said something straight out about a drinking problem, then John would deny it. And of course humor is useful to cover up all sorts of dis-ease. Jack's real reactions ... definitely the stuff of some pretty heavy angst fic. Jack keeps a lot in, he's used to being emotionally self-sufficient. And if he's getting together with Ianto, well, he'll end up taking care of Ianto emotionally a lot, I think. If Jack were with Gwen, it would be more balanced - Gwen would force Jack to open up. But Ianto is too young and broken up.

Speaking of which, WHAT was going through their heads when Jack asked Ianto out. Ianto was so remote, and Jack kinda smirked at the end. The one and only time we saw them as a couple, they were just playful ...

Regarding John as a plausible portrait: um, really?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

John and Ges are frighteningly familiar.

yes - not just in terms of personality (insofar as we get to know Ges, which isn't very far) but also in their position in the plot and their relationship to the hero.

mygod, but he's a cool customer, to in effect interrogate like that.

Yes. I think fans often forget that Jack is (still) a con man and, as a con man, has very good skills of appearing as he wants to appear, not as he actually is. There are people with whom Jack is always honest - the Doctor and Rose, after "The Doctor Dances" - and I think it's safe to say that he is honest with the Torchwood team, but not forthcoming - that is, what he says to them is true, but seldom the whole truth. He has kept his secrets and his privacy.

Jack's real reactions ... definitely the stuff of some pretty heavy angst fic.

Oh, yes. There are some amazing scenes... even if you ignore the themes of suicide, there's some wonderful angsty stuff.

Jack keeps a lot in, he's used to being emotionally self-sufficient.

Uh-huh.

And if he's getting together with Ianto, well, he'll end up taking care of Ianto emotionally a lot, I think.

Or at least: teaching him a lot.

If Jack were with Gwen, it would be more balanced - Gwen would force Jack to open up. But Ianto is too young and broken up.

Yes. And his only other sexual relationship was painfully disastrous.

Speaking of which, WHAT was going through their heads when Jack asked Ianto out. Ianto was so remote, and Jack kinda smirked at the end. The one and only time we saw them as a couple, they were just playful ...

Ianto is very... inner-directed and angsty. Yes, he was playful with Jack in "They Keep Killing Suzie" (which was the right approach at the time), but Ianto in general has deep dark pain: when Tosh briefly read his mind in "Greeks Bearing Gifts" he was suffering badly but no one could tell to see it. And we saw his grief when Jack died in "End of Days". I've heard fans refer to Ianto as emo!Ianto....

So presumably he took it hard when Jack disappeared without a word, and focussed his emotions and his energies into his work. And now is angry with Jack for picking him up and putting him down without any explanation. And Jack, who loves and wants Ianto, isn't sure how to play this without hurting Ianto again or offending his 21st century sense of the ways things should be. Being extremely flexible, Jack is feeling his way through this, checking out what approach will comfort and reassure Ianto.

He have no indication of what Jack has told Ianto about himself. Presumably nothing. It would seem that he didn't tell him about the other Captain Jack in 1941, that he didn't tell him he was from the future, that he didn't tell him about the Doctor - the reference to the Doctor in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" is in relation to a conversation he had with Gwen about "looking for the right kind of Doctor". Ianto didn't even know Jack was immortal until he saw him come back from death in "End of Days".

Jack has told Tosh he used to be a con man, and she probably told the others.

a P.S. to waht I just said...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

About the scene in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" where Jack and John are allegedly drinking together: note that Jack opens a bottle (with his teeth, yet) but doesn't drink a drop, while John swills down a bottle of something potent. Jack preserves the illusion that they are drinking together, but only one of them is drinking. There are indications in Doctor Who that Jack had been a drinker (and he plies Rose with champagne when he first meets her), but in Torchwood he drinks water. (Unless someone he loves has just died.)

A second point on the Jack/Ianto relationship: it started on a playful note and I think Jack has kept it that way, but Ianto needs much more and that, I think, is how the office-fetish scene plays out. Jack starts out being sexually playful, as he was in the past with Ianto - Ianto won't play the game. Jack immediately asks him how he is. The rest of the conversation is Ianto being defensive and secretly hoping that Jack wants him, despite his own angers and fears; and Jack carefully feeling his way so that he and Ianto can resume a relationship without Ianto being scared off.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I actually think Captain John was trying to persuade himself when he said money was the only worthwhile thing.

I would agree with that. If money was the only thing he valued, he'd have killed the Torchwood team and left. And he certainly wouldn't have begged Jack to take him onto the team.

nobody builds up a catalogue of addictions like his without wanting to hide from their lives and themselves.

He seems to have a trail of losses and failures behind him. Obviously he lost Jack, and still cares. The Time Agency is disbanded - goodness knows what it was like or what it did, but it must at one time have been a career, a purpose, a direction, and a value of some sort. The drugs and drinking and their toll on his mind and body (as pointed out by Jack) aren't doing him any good, and he has failed on four counts of rehab. (No purity tests for Captain John!) What does he have left? Well, we don't know, but it looks like precious little, least of all self-respect. I think self-respect was the biggest gift the Doctor gave to Jack. Is that something Jack could pass on to John? Not yet, I think, because as you say, John isn't even engaged in his own story now. He's flailing. Maybe meeting Jack again will be a sort of wake-up call. He must have seen how well Jack was doing, in terms of living a better and more satisfying life. (And it isn't all asceticism and self-denial; he has a lovely relationship with the Eye Candy.)

I agree with all your points about Jack and the Doctor. Jack's love for the Doctor is no less than it was, but he knows that being worthy of the Doctor means being independent of him.

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

I'm getting the impression that you are going to be quite fun to argue with. Here's a thought about Ianto to bounce off you for just that purpose :D

Ianto's motivation is Duty.

Ianto does multiple things within his role which people tend to break down but to get to the heart of Ianto you have to take a step back and view it as a whole. Ianto does whatever is necessary. Whether its seems vital or menial, it doesn't matter to him. The honour for Ianto is in serving.

By serving I mean serving a purpose, he is in no means servile and certainly doesn't view himself as less than anyone else. Ianto is the MI6 agent that worked undercover as a cleaner for seven years to get vital files, he's the MI5 agent that foils terrorist plots that everyone thinks works for the department of Fish and Rural Affairs. That's his mindset, duty not glory. Which means the only people who can appreciate what he does are those around him - hence why he bitterly resents the lack of thank-yous and 'teaboy' jibes. I don't think any of the others understand that.

Ianto is that mindset combined with a carer personality, one that wants to help and look after. He wants to please and he wants to help.

Love is something Ianto needs but it seems to be a hidden need rather than a motivation. What he does he does out of duty, Ianto offers everything he has to Jack and Torchwood freely, but to get the best out of Ianto Jack has to supply the 'family' support structure Ianto needs.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm getting the impression that you are going to be quite fun to argue with.

I think that's a nice thing to say, but it makes me feel a little trepidatious as well! But I always love discussion of points...

Ianto's motivation is Duty.

Well, yes, but I'd argue that it's duty to people rather than ideas or institutions. If it were 'duty' in general that moved him - say, duty to Torchwood - he'd have turned Lisa over as soon as he could, instead of trying to keep her alive and to restore her.

Otherwise, I agree. Ianto is the one who attends to details no one else focuses on. I love the way he goes to direct action - calling the taxi, for example, while the others are half a step behind him in decided to follow after Jack.

I agree that Ianto wants to please, but I don't think he wants to please just anybody. He wants to please the favoured few he thinks worthy. And then he'll do anything, way beyond most normal parameters.

Ianto does seem to like to keep his loves hidden - maybe because they're so important to him. He never told anyone about Lisa. As far as I can see, he's told no one about his relationship with Jack. The others might be wondering, after the kiss in "End of Days", and the "I came back for you... all of you" remark. But my impression now is that Ianto has said nothing to them.

This may be because it is so important to Ianto that he wants to keep it private, as if that will keep his love safe.

[vervassal.livejournal.com]

Well, I've seen it now, and I think I need a second viewing. It took me a little while to get used to the slapdash style (again), and I thought that Captain John was a little too loosely sketched. He filled roles as they were needed: he's a foil for Jack; he makes Ianto jealous; he's a threat, he's a psychopath, he's seductive; there was nothing really stable to grab on to, nothing for me to sympathize with. None of Captain John's characteristics came into a cohesive whole.

So.

Things I liked? I loved that the team is more efficient, if not more inconspicous. And Ianto was spot-on with his worries and his jealousness and stuff, and I found myself hoping that Jack wouldn't break his heart again. I hope Owen grows, a little, but I hope they don't put him with Tosh- she totally deserves better! (I still say Tosh for Companion *waves banner*).

I need to re-watch it, but it was better in some ways and disappointing in others. Three stars, I think. (Out of 5)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I thought that Captain John was a little too loosely sketched.

I liked him as is, but it would be nice to dig a little deeper. I think most of what we saw was lies and illusions - rather like seeing Thady Boy without knowing Lymond. Not that Captain John was pretending to be someone he wasn't, but that there were so many layers of deceptions (and self-deceptions), including those simply for the sake of plot, that it was difficult to sort out the reality, the pretence, the tragedy, the potential, or the real personality under it all. I did find him often sympathetic - especially his coming to understand what Jack had become and what Jack had (while he was left with nothing but loneliness and brain-damage for his excesses).

Now, I like this. Lots of material to ponder and turn into stories and so on. Elusive and chameleonic characters can be frustrating, but I found him intriguing.

Ianto was spot-on with his worries and his jealousness and stuff

I thought Ianto has never been better, in terms of being entertaining. At the same time, I keep wishing for more from him. More maturity, mostly. He always strikes me as acting far younger than he is supposed to be. This is not entirely unappealing, but it doesn't enhance his character either.

I found myself hoping that Jack wouldn't break his heart againM/i>

That is half of what I hope. The other half is that he won't tame Jack too much. I don't want to see a Jack who is monogamous and domesticated. He and Ianto are going to have to find a way to understand and accept each other without making each other change.

(I still say Tosh for Companion *waves banner*).

Hear, hear! I second that motion!

I liked it better than you did. Not perfect, but four stars anyway.

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

If Gwen is chiefly motivated by curiosity (and I am not denying it is an important motivator for her) how do you see her 100% resolution to step into the vortex and sacrifice herself for Cardiff? I think Gwen is also strongly motivated by what she thinks as right (and I suspect marrying Rhys is 'right'too). She does want to protect people. She did choose the policeforce on purpose. I see her taking control of Torchwood also as a part of that motivation, making sure that things, the whole thing, goes right. Ianto, Toshiko and Owen all have their speciality, Gwen is the generalist who feels responsible.

I think the Doctor is also motivated by guilt. In this new series it was most clear in the episode with the (supposedly) last Dalek and the references to the war that made him the last Time Lord. His attitude towards the Master is also interwoven with guilt, guilt that he couldn't make it better. In earlier series the Doctor had once in a while things go very wrong, companions have died. He has grieved a lot. The tricky thing with the Doctor is, he is ONE but he is also many. There are differences between Nine and Ten (not just mannerisms and ways of speaking but just a little difference in outlook on life) so are earlier Doctors just a bit different from one and other. This is most obvious in episodes where more than one Doctor appear (for example the last children in need appeal Time Crash).

But naturally, none of us would think either Torchwood or Dr Whoo so shallow a story that the characters are driven by purely one motivation.

[omnivorously.livejournal.com]

I think that both Gwen and Rhys are not being smart. Sure, they love each other, but their lives are diverging in a major way, and if they stay together then they'll both be settling.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't bet money on the odds of their staying together myself. My guess is that they won't get married. But it will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

Especially when Rhys learns about Torchwood. He's living a good life, but with blinders on. How will he cope with the truth around him?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

If Gwen is chiefly motivated by curiosity (and I am not denying it is an important motivator for her) how do you see her 100% resolution to step into the vortex and sacrifice herself for Cardiff?

She's a selfless and caring person, which is one of the reasons that, even when she is at her worst, I quite love her. Yes, she wants to protect, but I don't think she'd be happy in a profession that didn't give her curiosity scope - as a nurse, for example.

Ianto, Toshiko and Owen all have their speciality, Gwen is the generalist who feels responsible.

What do you see as Ianto's specialty? I think both he and Gwen are generalists with talent for organization - in different ways. Both are good at finding answers, but Gwen is better at getting answers from people and from deduction, Ianto from research and analysis.

I think the Doctor is also motivated by guilt.

He is indeed, but as far as I know, that wasn't always the case. He was always a traveller, but the guilt came after the end of the Time Wars.

is attitude towards the Master is also interwoven with guilt, guilt that he couldn't make it better.

And that he didn't even know. And I think the Master is a sort of symbol to him of all the other people of Gallifrey who no longer exist.

There are differences between Nine and Ten (not just mannerisms and ways of speaking but just a little difference in outlook on life) so are earlier Doctors just a bit different from one and other.

Yes. I have come to understand this and it adds to the interest of the character - even if it's sometimes a problem, or makes him seem inconsistent.

none of us would think either Torchwood or Dr Whoo so shallow a story that the characters are driven by purely one motivation.

No, not even Captain John, whatever he might claim!

[wijsgeer.livejournal.com]

What do you see as Ianto's specialty?

mmm, I find this hard. I see a difference between generalist and organizer. My impression of Ianto is more of someone for the details. There are many references of him making coffee and that that is his main task and some filing and such. But I can imagine there being quite a lot of administrative stuff to be done and I don't see the other being very precise and dilligent in handing all the forms in on time. (And however above the law they may be, money must come from somewhere). Ianto tidies traces of death bodies away, not so much physically as in administration (or at least I seem to remember that references to that activity included him primarily). All work for someone who has a keen eye for detail. When he hid Lisa in the basement (ok, that was not one of his official tasks) he had to arranger a lot things to keep her safe and hidden. Ianto is more an arranger than an organiser, I think.
I somehow cannnot see him as the one who would have taken over as leader of the gang. But you are right, Owen and Toshiko have more defined specialist roles.

He is indeed, but as far as I know, that wasn't always the case. He was always a traveller, but the guilt came after the end of the Time Wars.

I think, if you watch/listen to earlier episodes you will find guilt ridden Doctor scenes. You could consider listening to the short series Excelis it features three episodes with three different Doctors (the 5th, 6th and 7th) and one with Bernice Summerfield.
For a short, quick guide the website of the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/guide.shtml) offers some useful info.

Rowena

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

What do you see as Ianto's specialty?

mmm, I find this hard.

Yes, so do I. Perhaps we haven't really seen him come into his speciality yet. I like your idea that he is an arranger. He does seem to be quite an ideas-man.

I can imagine there being quite a lot of administrative stuff to be done

So it would seem, but I would be skeptical of this. Each member of the team presumably has to file reports on their cases and keep records of their work and research, which, I would imagine, Ianto keeps track of as archivist.

As for the rest: my belief is that Torchwood Three, being above the law and beyond the government is also outside all the normal rules, because it is primarily a con game of Jack's, and he doesn't need to do paperwork for anyone but himself. (I could be persuaded that he also has to do paperwork for the fund or trust or whatever it is that finances Torchwood; canonically their funding is unclear. What commodirified calls "handwavium". Which is fine by me.)

My point is: If Torchwood is answerable to no one, has no taxes, doesn't even officially exist, there must be only internal paperwork, and only as much of that as Jack would deem necessary.

I don't think Jack is much of a paperwork kind of guy.

Of course, they'd have a century of back records for Ianto to deal with.

Thanks for more Doctor background info!

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

I'd say Ianto needs to be needed in general, not by one specific person. He was serving Torchwood at the beginning of KKBB; he didn't know Jack was coming back.

Now I'm trying to figure out how his resentment of Jack in that ep fits in.

I'd also say that Toshiko needs to be needed, too. Her eagerness to jump in with a solution to any problem, without being asked, without thinking about the larger ramifications of the solution, rings of someone not sure of her place.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'd say Ianto needs to be needed in general, not by one specific person.

But if it was just Torchwood he needed to be needed by, the whole thing with Lisa wouldn't have happened. I think he needs to feel he's doing his duty, yes, but he needs to feel it's a duty to a person. Perhaps originally he was just loyal to Torchwood, but once he fell in love with Lisa, it's obvious she was his primary loyalty. Otherwise he would have killed her, or turned her over to Torchwood, after the Battle of Canary Wharf.

When Lisa died, he transferred that loyalty to Jack - and Jack also represents Torchwood, so it's a way of making his personal loyalty to person he loves and his professional loyalty to the institution come together.

Yes, he continued to serve Torchwood when Jack left. We don't know how long it was - it might be that he likes the work, and was drifting; it might be that he hoped Jack would return. Which he did. In any case, it seems clear to me that Ianto was unhappy when Jack was gone, compared to when he was there, and when he came back.

He's angry with Jack for leaving him without confiding in him, and not taking him with him - which basically means, he's angry with Jack for frightening him. But I think he's already forgiven him. No resentment, just fear of losing Jack.

Toshiko needs to be needed through her work. To be loved for herself is something she hasn't experienced yet, so she's learned to do without it.

She deserves better.