Torchwood: Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang: Relationships Revisited...

[fajrdrako]

I watched Torchwood 2x01 "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" again this morning while doing my exercises. Of course, while one's hands are full of weights, it's difficult to take notes for future reference - but I dearly wanted to.

It set a few mental gears in motion, though - mainly with my favourite subject of considering Captain Jack and his relationships.

1. Captain Jack and Ianto

I seems obvious to me that if Jack wanted to simply seduce Ianto he could do it in seconds. Ianto is defensive, angry, frightened: loves Jack desperately but is afraid that Jack will simply walk off and leave him again, without warning or explanation. There's not much Jack can say to that, and he's not about to make excuses or explanations. What Ianto needs is to believe that Jack cares about him, but he's not about to believe reassurances at this point. He may not know about Jack's con man past, but he knows him well enough to mistrust his words.

But what Jack wants most of all is to disconnect himself with his own shady past - to stop being a con man. Even though he is one still, in many ways. But he wants to be an honest con man, fully aware of the paradox he is wrapping around himself. I think Jack will learn that he is the product of his own past and he can't escape it - but he can accept it and build on it by facing it. Which may mean sharing it with the Team. We shall see.

But meanwhile, Ianto and their relationship is something Jack wants as a staple of his present, and he wants to win Ianto back without breaking him. He needs his trust, whether he deserves it or not.

So he has set up to rebuild Ianto's pride and to show him respect. Even to play the courting game by the terms of Ianto's cultural background - ask him on a date. Did Ianto first ask Lisa on a date, way back when?

Jack is nothing if not adaptible. Flexible, we might say.

2. Captain Jack and Captain John

Jack is still trying to remake himself in the image of the Doctor, but I think, more than last year, he has found a way to keep his own personality while doing it. As if finding the Doctor again gave him back a supressed side of himself - which is, of course, as it should be. He still wants to successfully follow the path of his mentor, but he wants to be a flirty, gun-totin' version of the Doctor.

The parallels between his relationship with Captain John and the Doctor's relationship with the Master are pretty clear. The Master and Captain John are both from the heroes' past, both sociopathic and brain-damaged, with strong love/hate emotional bonds, lots of personal history - expressed by both obsession and possessiveness on the part of the Master and Captain John. And both Jack and the Doctor want to 'fix' their lover-opponents. Both fail.

Further, Jack wants to excise his past (which he feels shames him) and yet it keeps coming back to bite him. Obviously (happily) we haven't seen the last of Captain John, and the Grey thing implies more revelations about Jack's past, too.

At the end, Captain John wanted to stay with Captain Jack, perhaps seeing there a hope of redemption, or forgiveness.

3. Captain Jack and his Team

I have been fascinated by the roles Jack takes on, and how he handles them. There's quite a bit of talk in series 1 about Jack as Torchwood's leader and the boss - but he's really a terrible leader. He fails to give the team necessary information, he lets them get away with murder - his own murder, no less! - and shoot each other, he gives orders that they ignore over and over, and he only fires the one person who dares to question his identity. Which, of course, is false anyway, which is the reason it's an issue in the first place. He gives them the evening off and then drags them away from dinner because he can't handle things. And he has sex with the office boy. As he tells Tosh, he's really no good at playing the boss.

It's as if his only experience of working in a hierarchical situation was the military ranks - which he deals with easily and pretty much unconsciously. But he doesn't want to run Torchwood as a military institution. (I would suspect that he was horrified by Yvonne.)

From the end of "The Empty Child" Jack defers to the Doctor on all points. He'll state his case, he'll even argue, but always, always accepts the Doctor's judgement. Remember the lovely bit of dialogue from "Boom Town" that illustrates this delightfully:

JACK
Okay, plan of attack, we assume a basic fifty seven/fifty six strategy, covering all available exits on the ground floor. Doctor, you go face-to-face, that'll designate Exit One, I'll cover Exit Two, Rose, you're Exit Three, Mickey Smith, you take Exit Four. Have you got that?

[While Jack is rattling all this off, the Doctor is eyeing him with mild surprise at his impertinence, Rose's face is contorted with the effort of understanding what on earth he's going on about, and Mickey just looks plain confused]

DOCTOR [sternly]
Excuse me. Who's in charge?

JACK
Sorry. Awaiting orders, sir.

DOCTOR [voice deepening with authority]
Right. Here's the plan.

[Pause. The Doctor beams at them]

DOCTOR
Like he said. Nice plan. Anything else?¹

Jack seems happiest with a loose structure, though he's perfectly ready to make heavy decisions - even unpopular ones, like the fate of Jasmine.

So: in series 1, there was this gap between Jack-as-boss and the team as employess. Jack was the Alien Expert, while they operated on a need to know basis. No doubt Jack has to struggle on a continuous basis with what he can tell them about the future - which is his past - without precipitating disasters.

So he comes back in series 2, and seems reasonably prepared to rewrite the past, including his past in Torchwood. Power struggle? Not a bit of it. If Gwen has learned a new talent for organization and leadership, he's happy to let her run with it. Blowfish calls him the Teacher, and that fits his role - he offers guidance, experience, and knowledge, but he's not getting into power-roles.

Consequences? He seems to be offering Ianto a relationship on a much more equal basis - not so much boss and office boy, but two teammates who care for each other. I'm not sure I want to see Ianto drop the 'sir' because I loved it (and I like to think Jack did too), but it was becoming a barrier between them rather than a bond.

Jack offers Gwen - what, friendship? Some confidences. Watching again, his statement to Gwen that "I came back for you" seemed much less personal to me - she might have wanted him to come back for her alone, but he came for all of them, and I think this would be true even if he were sleeping with her. Is that what he wanted, with the smile and the hand-holding? I think so.

This looser arrangement reflects a kind of organization that Jack seems much more comfortable with than the usual working environments - no surprise, there: it seems rather like what he knew on the TARDIS.

~ ~ ~

¹ From Doctor Who transcripts

Comments

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

This is actually really, really freaking incredible and does a good job of accurately expressing a lot of things rattling around my brain about Jack and his relationships and things going on and that we're seeing.

Thank you.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the kind words. I was just reading posts on torch_wood and thinking "Did these people see the same episode I did?" since their comments seemed so off-base to me. I'm really glad to hear that someone interprets things the way I do!

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

You are so good at summing things like this up.

I've seen a remarkable lack of crazy in my flist, but I get the impression I'm very lucky with that. Thanks y'all. :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

You are so good at summing things like this up

*blush* What a nice thing to say. *Hugs* I love doing this. I really do.

I'm lucky with my flist, too.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

I love this analysis, because it contextualizes the personal nicely in the structure of the relationships. (And I always adored that Jack/Nine exchange *s*).

I think people get stuck when they try to give essentialist views of characters (who the person *really* is deep inside) -- missing how powerful relational context is. Is Jack more comfortable in the dominant or submissive role? The answer is "yes", depending on who else is around. For me the telling bit about this episode is the juxtaposition of Jack's clear pleasure in the fight/symbolic fuck scene with John in the bar -- he's having FUN in that fight -- and his next words, "I don't want you in my territory." He might personally enjoy tangling with John in any number of ways, but John's presence threatens to be a seduction/induction into past roles that Jack wants to leave behind. He can separate the personal connection from his understanding that having John around created an inevitable dynamic, one that in this case he just doesn't want.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it contextualizes the personal nicely in the structure of the relationships

Yes! That's exactly what I was trying to do! But I couldn't have phrased it so cleverly.

I always adored that Jack/Nine exchange *s*

Me too. Which is not to say that I did't adore all the Jack/Nine exchanges. But that one illustrated to much about their personalities and their worldviews and - best of all - their enjoyment in each other. They worked together so well.

I think people get stuck when they try to give essentialist views of characters (who the person *really* is deep inside) -- missing how powerful relational context is.

Missing too that people are more fluid than it implies. If I were pressed to it I'd say that Jack was the archetypal 'con man', but that is as much misleading as true. Jack is also deeply honest and sincere. He has reasons for secrecy, privacy, and for not wanting to destroy our universe by messing up timelines. He is at least as much 'hero' as 'con man', but he redefines heroism with every event that happens.

Moreover, the Jack we met in "The Empty Child" is not exactly the same man we see in "Boom Town", because he has undergone a transformational experience - that of meeting the Doctor. He has another transformational experience at the end of "The Parting of the Ways", with death, rebirth, and the eventual discovery of his immortality. (Huh. Other heroes have to deal with the implications of their mortality. Jack's been there, done that, but dealing with the implications of immortality is a real bugger.) We know he had a transformational event when he left the Time Agency, his memories ripped away and a grudge to deal with. How many transformational events happened before that? The death of his young friend in war, tortured by monstrous beings? The more we look, the we see.

And so it continues. Jack is still Jack, and still reinventing himself. Of course his core personality doesn't change, but it's always a process of discovery and redesign as events force themselves upon him.

For me the telling bit about this episode is the juxtaposition of Jack's clear pleasure in the fight/symbolic fuck scene with John in the bar -- he's having FUN in that fight -- and his next words, "I don't want you in my territory."

Yes, exactly - I loved that. It sums up all Jack's mixed feelings, in a way, not just about Captain John - but about himself, and his past, and his assessment of himself. Not to mentin the way he feels protective of his Team and his planet and our time. Jack is still a hedonist, but he doesn't let that rule his choices or his judgement.

[fodian.livejournal.com]

He can separate the personal connection from his understanding that having John around created an inevitable dynamic, one that in this case he just doesn't want.

Yes, yes, yes.

[marvola.livejournal.com]

I'm impressed with your leadership explanations. And for me, it's a plausible way of having a competent team this season without changing the characterisation too much!

Agree about the 'Sir' as well - although I do hope we hear some kind of kinky innuendo from either Jack or Ianto about it! I do hold out a lot of hope for them this season but I guess I'm guilty as well of ignoring that this could be a slow burning relationship and expecting instant gratification.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it's a plausible way of having a competent team this season without changing the characterisation too much!

Yes, and thank goodness for that. They were such total screw-ups last series, and not always by accident. Even in circumstances they should have long since known how to handle better - the death of Ed Morgan, for example.

But I love the team anyway.

Agree about the 'Sir' as well - although I do hope we hear some kind of kinky innuendo from either Jack or Ianto about it!

What I'm hoping is that it will return for use between them, but as more of a sexy joke than a distancing mechanism (which is how Ianto used it in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang") or whatever it was last year.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what we get of their relationship, and how it develops. I am pretty sure that whatever happens, it won't be smooth sailing.

[lonelybrit]

Erm, yeah, right, I pretty much agree with everything you say - great piece of meta! Problem is that when you do completely agree there's not a lot more to say. The one thing I'll slightly nit-pick on, and it is pretty much purely for the sake of it, is: And both Jack and the Doctor want to 'fix' their lover-opponents. Both fail.

Yes and no. The Doctor actively felt responsible for the Master, almost pity, and offered him the opportunity to come with him and change his was, he made active gestures.

Jack never really does that, all his actions are passive. Even before John has explained about the bombs, Jack is telling him he wants him off his territory. He doesn't boot John out on sight because he's giving him that chance to prove he's changed - but unlike the Doctor there's no active persuasion going on. From the start Jack makes it clear that once the job is done, one way or another John is expected to leave. When John's double-cross was revealed, we also never saw Jack going out of his way to preserve John's life - unlike the Doctor who made it clear there was to be no killing. My impression is that if John survives whatever and doesn't do anything too unforgivable, Jack will let him go because he does feel guilt over his past. But he's not going to go out of his way to sort John out, it's up to John to want to change.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The Doctor actively felt responsible for the Master, almost pity, and offered him the opportunity to come with him and change his was, he made active gestures.

Yes.

Jack never really does that, all his actions are passive.

Not entirely. I was thinking of his conversation with Gwen about giving John a chance - maybe he was telling the truth about the cannisters and wanting to save the world, maybe he was a better man than Jack thought/knew/remembered he was - Jack was willing to let him prove himself, and let him have free run of Cardiff to do so. I'd say Jack would have wanted John to redeem himself, but he didn't expect it and had no way of forcing the issue.

Admittedly, Jack is somewhat more laissez-fair than the Doctor, by nature.

I still see parallels, admittedly not exact ones. That's what makes it so interesting.

[clipsie.livejournal.com]

*gives applause* I agree with that for the most part.

Also, people need to stop picking and choosing characters. I know it is something entirely normal, and we all do it to people we meet on the street, but I've seen some way out there comments just because someone didn't like a character, and that is their entire basis. Maybe I'm just more accepting of random bits than those people. But, it seems to be a problem, especially directed towards Gwen.

Still, wonderful and not really biased analysis. :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well - yes! I really love Gwen, and couldn't agree more that some fans let their dislike of her colour their perception of what is happening. I make no secret of my lack of sympathy for Owen, but I like to think I can still enjoy his role in the story.

In fact, I sometimes try too hard not to favour Gwen, because I don't want to annoy (or be dismissed by) the fans who dislike her. Which is a sort of backhanded way of handling it. I let my Gwen-love run free on torchwoodgwen and try to contain it here.

I also find the Jack/Gwen relationship fascinating for many reasons. It's sexy-hot, for one thing. For another: I've no idea where it's going, in terms of resolution of storylines. No idea how things will develop or not develop between them. I love that, in a world where most television relationships are transparently predictable.

[kiltfriction.livejournal.com]

One disagreement - Jack/John doesn't echo The Doctor/The Master. On the surface there's some similarities but the fundamental relationship is very different.

The Doctor/The Master
- The Doctor wants the The Master to stay with him.
- The Doctor wants to hold on to his past through The Master.
- The Doctor is all about redemption, he'll fight to bring The Master round, he'll spend his life as a guardian for the man to do that.
- The Doctor will always forgive him, The Master knows it.

Jack/John
- Jack doesn't want anything to do with his past.
- Jack doesn't want John around.
- Jack helped because there was a chance John had redeemed himself already but has no intention of spending any time helping him to redeem himself.

All of which is clearly displayed in the fact that:
- The Doctor asks The Master to stay
- John asks to stay, Jack tells him to leave.

There's little similarity between the two, which actually just makes it all the more interesting I'd say :D

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I agree with all those points, which is what makes the two relationship-patterns so interesting. John wanted to stay with Jack, and Jack refused him; the Master died to escape the Doctor. (If only temporarily.) All delightful variations on a theme, but it wouldn't be a theme if there weren't basic similarities.

Compare and contrast with another pattern: Jack loves the Doctor, the Doctor tried to avoid him (at the beginning of "Utopia"); then things change, the Doctor asked Jack to stay with him, but Jack leaves (at the end of "The Last of the Time Lords").

It's like a dance, with patterns changing all the time.

[fatchickengirl.livejournal.com]

Gwen is the 'fag-hag' role however she may deney it he patenly came back for Ianto and whats to come.

He added the rest of the team and then again with her she was all google eyes 'how do i tell him about the wedding?' and he is delighten for her she is keeping her promise being human and connected. But she still pines for him which to a point my suit jack.

But in the end he wants Inato on a more perminant basis....

We will see!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, I can't blame Gwen for wanting Jack. Heck, I'd want him myself, in her place! I am also convinced that Owen and Tosh also want him (but don't think they have a chance and aren't making a thing about it). And we all know Ianto wants him to the point of heartbreak.

Also: no doubt he wants Ianto. On a fairly serious level. How permanent it can be when one man is immortal and the other is not, I'm not sure; nor do I think Jack has a 'permanent' setting in his everchanging life.

Yes, we shall see.

But I do rather hope that something happens between Jack and Gwen. I love him with Ianto, but I like complications, and I don't want static relationships.

I do believe, though, that Jack came back for all of them, not just for Ianto, and not just in a sexual/romantic sense.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post :D One of the many things I have always liked about Jack is that he defies quaint little categories and I think you captured that really well.

I really liked the Master/Captain John parallel and the Tardis/Torchwood parallel.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

So glad you enjoyed it. It's fun musing about Jack. Yes, I like the way he avoids quaint little categories and sometimes even expectations.

The Hub doesn't have the 'safe haven' feel that the TARDIS does (and no reason it should) but it is starting to have that sense of "home" as well as "home base".

[confluents.livejournal.com]

*Thank* you.

There's been so much negativity about this scene and that scene, and no one seems to be taking in the episode as a whole.

The impression that I got from the episode was that Jack was expecting to come home to find, you know, home, only to find that everything and everyone is just a little bit different (maybe even a little bit better). They've even redecorated the freaking hub (if I remember the scene correctly). ^.^

This was beautifully put! I've seen some really biased reviews of the episode, but this one is respectful while still being insightful. Bravo!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the nice comments - and of course I'm respectful! I totally love this show!

I also have a lot of respect... admiration, even... for the thinking behind it: the universe it explores, the humour and action it shows, its sense of values, and the way it expresses these things. The more I look, the more I see.

The impression that I got from the episode was that Jack was expecting to come home to find, you know, home, only to find that everything and everyone is just a little bit different (maybe even a little bit better).

That's a very good point. He didn't just go back to the moment he left, and he didn't find everything as it had been. Life went on without him - they'd changed. And so had he. In fact, many of the changes in them were because of him, and because of his departure.

I'd love to know how long he was gone, from the Torchwood team's point of view.

They've even redecorated the freaking hub (if I remember the scene correctly). ^.^

So Jack said. I thought they just made things tidier. (g)

[kaimu.livejournal.com]

I basically have to say, I agree with everything you say. I also don't like the whole second-choice/consolation argument going on because I doubt Jack sees it like that. It's not first choice or second choice, it's just simply that he wants to have them around as more than friends, and doesn't think those feelings for one have to exclude the other.

On a side note I've been thinking about the whole Jack/Gwen, Jack/Ianto thing too much, trying to get into the characters heads and have come to the conclusion that I really want to see Gwen and Ianto interact with and without the whole question of Jack looming over them. And how do their relationship (friendship/jealous of the other/respected colleague/open to a love-polygon?) affect Jack's relationship with each of them.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I also don't like the whole second-choice/consolation argument going on because I doubt Jack sees it like that. It's not first choice or second choice, it's just simply that he wants to have them around as more than friends, and doesn't think those feelings for one have to exclude the other.

No, exactly. He doesn't see it as even a sort of choice. He loves them. A 'this one or that one' dichotomy doesn't even occur to him. It isn't even a "choice" - not for him - he loves them, and how they react to him is up to them.

I really want to see Gwen and Ianto interact with and without the whole question of Jack looming over them.

That would be very interesting. We've seen very little interplay between them, even just in terms of conversation. They seem to be on good terms - I loved his 'sushi' joke in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" and she seemed to appreciate it too. On the other hand, Ianto, who is now feeling very insecure with Jack, is going through a jealous phase and might be upset by her interest in Jack. I hope this will be explored a little.

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

ooooooooo! I really like your take on Captain Jack and Captain John. The most interest difference I would notice in the Jack-John and Doctor-Master relations is when it came to the end the Doctor wanted the Master to stay but the Master chose to "leave" while on the flip side John wanted to stay but Jack told him to go. Rather interesting difference there.

EDIT: yeah, hadn't read all the comments when I wrote this but no harm in repetition

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I really like your take on Captain Jack and Captain John.

Big happy smile.

[fodian.livejournal.com]

Really good stuff, all around.

Jack offers Gwen - what, friendship? Some confidences.

It's Ianto that Jack asks on a date, but Gwen that he confides in. And I like that quite a bit. Gwen's the one who pushes for confidences, she's good at asking questions, which is, after all, why she goes with John. Ianto may not have learned to push this way yet, which is fine. I don't need my characters to start out completely rounded. It'll be interesting to see if the dynamic between Ianto and Jack does become more equal. It can't be all Jack dropping barriers and asking for dates. Ianto's got to play a more active part as well in whatever it is they're pursuing (and I think he will).

I think this would be true even if he were sleeping with her. Is that what he wanted, with the smile and the hand-holding? I think so.

To me, he obviously did want to sleep with her. Meta-textually (and way personally), I love this. I've watched so many sci-fi and genre shows where the male lead had mad subtext with a female character *and* mad subtext with a male character and it's always, always, always the female character he ends up in bed with/in a relationship with and TW is going to play around with that and switch around the players and I think it's pretty amazing.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's Ianto that Jack asks on a date, but Gwen that he confides in.

So it would seem, though Gwen wants more in the way of confidences than she has received. At the same time, I think Gwen would also like what Ianto got - some sexual attention.

Ianto may not have learned to push this way yet, which is fine.

I think Ianto, to date, hasn't known what questions to ask. He's good at research, but not at asking pertinent questions - I think he's just starting to try that now, with his questions in "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang". I don't think he knew Jack was immortal until he recovered from the gunshot when Owen shot him in "End of Days". The whole Torchwood crew seems to have figured out now that Jack is from another time - presumably they realize that it has to be the future, given his knowledge.

But I don't think Jack told Ianto anything, and Ianto is feeling the sting.

It'll be interesting to see if the dynamic between Ianto and Jack does become more equal.

I think it already has, but where it will lead from here will be interesting to see. Ianto is in a snit and not feeling like compromising at the moment - he's terrified that Jack will leave again. But if the relationship is to have any hoe at all, Ianto will have to udnerstand Jack's point of view - that love isn't linear, but fluid.

he obviously did want to sleep with her. Meta-textually (and way personally), I love this.

Yes. Me too. For numerous reasons.

TW is going to play around with that and switch around the players and I think it's pretty amazing.

Yes. I love it.

[toraks.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid your insightfulness is drawing me in... noooooooo! ;-p

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'd throw you a life jacket - but only to reel you in more!

[freeze883.livejournal.com]

Okay first I liked this, I'm still thinking about it and other things mentioned in the comments (most of which I liked too) so this might be a bit unfocused. I think the main reason I like this is you clearly "get" Jack which some people don't or at least the see it from another character's point of view (which is fair but leads to a very different conclusion to mine)

I see that "that scene" and your opinion of it has been mentioned and it's weird because I just posted someplace else that that scene makes me uneasy but after reading through this I've changed my mind, it's simply the implication of that scene (Jack settling down which can never happen due to him never dying) that make me uneasy. I really do like Gwen in that scene and would not want it cut out, it's more just that last series that Gwen/Jack stuff cut out a lot of the other members of the team (even Owen who got a lot of screentime) and I really like them as a team. It's like the scene you mention with Mickey, Rose, Jack and the Doctor where they are a team with a leader (the Doctor) but Jack is free to lead (much like Gwen in KKBB)

With Jack I think it's really important to remember how he was introduced and what we know about relationships in his time and the one he knew in the TARDIS because it was never just Doctor/Rose or Doctor/Martha (I guess I should add IMO here) and Jack had borderline romantic relationships with both Martha and Rose while still having the same kind of relationship with the Doctor too. So why would he suddenly change now and just pick either Ianto or Gwen, I do believe he does love them both but he doesn't (and maybe shouldn't?) see that as a bad thing as in his time it's not.

"It's a different morality, get used to it or go home" comes to mind with Jack as he had a whole thing with Captain John in KKBB that really just messes up Ianto/Jack and Jack/Gwen if you hold it to traditional couples or love interests or whatever (also how come there was no backlash from the "Real" Jack way back when?)

Anyway hope you don't mind me throwing out my opinion here and again I really liked your review

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think the main reason I like this is you clearly "get" Jack which some people don't

Well, it's all a matter of interpretation and opinion, and we are each entitled to our own. But I do think I "get" Jack. In fact I "get" him rather too well - I identify with him probably too much. I also get very protective of him, and judge other characters badly when they hurt him.

it's simply the implication of that scene (Jack settling down which can never happen due to him never dying) that make me uneasy.

Interesting comment. Yes, I see Jack as having a very warm and loving heart, and when he loves people he sees no reason not to. Even if he never saw either Ianto or Gwen again, he loves them both, and that would be true whether he has slept with either of the, or is going to, or just wants to, or whatever. Jack doesn't put limitations on his love. He's pretty good at being sensitive to other people's needs - for instance, being protective of Gwen's relationship with Rhys - but I think he finds the custom of monogamy difficult to understand.

Glad you enjoyed my comments.

[raissad.livejournal.com]

I think it's going to be a case of Getting Back Late. Great analysis!

Btw, check this out...

BBC Radio Wales will air the first installment of Torchwood All Access on Saturday 19 January at 1:33PM GMT. This will be an infrequent behind the scenes show similar to "Doctor Who Back In Time". Julian Carey will host. The episode will be available on the Radio Wales website for one week after broadcast.

http://www.gallifreyone.com/news.php

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/radiowales/

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

That sounds interesting! Thanks for the link. And hmm, that's today it's airing. I can maybe catch it tomorrow.

[txvoodoo.livejournal.com]

"Jack offers Gwen - what, friendship? Some confidences. Watching again, his statement to Gwen that "I came back for you" seemed much less personal to me - she might have wanted him to come back for her alone, but he came for all of them, and I think this would be true even if he were sleeping with her. Is that what he wanted, with the smile and the hand-holding? I think so."

I think what Jack offers Gwen is a multitude of things. Going back to the beginning, he recognized something in her that the police department didn't. He values her input where others may have overlooked it. Of course, he's also exciting and exotic, while *looking* "normal". But Jack, I think, to Gwen, is the whole universe in one package.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Jack, I think, to Gwen, is the whole universe in one package.

I think so too. What I meant was not what he represented to her - i.e., what she saw in him - but what he actually has given her. As you say, besides friendship, he has not only seen the potential in her and given her an opportunity to use it, he has saved her from boredom and mundanity. Which is important to her.

And seeing how well she has taken - at least in one episode - to the running of Torchwood, I think she has taken huge steps in self-confidence and (of you'll forgive a dorky work, but I can't think of a better one) self-actualization.

This is nice to see.

[ridikuluss.livejournal.com]

At the end, Captain John wanted to stay with Captain Jack, perhaps seeing there a hope of redemption, or forgiveness.

Did he? Really? His smirk as he disappeared into the Rift, as he said "I found Grey", tells me it was a con. He wanted to stay- for his own reasons- he was not chastened.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I would never claim that Captain John was chastened. And he certainly isn't yet redeemed. And of course it was all a con - to both Captain Jack and Captain John, life is a con: even the new reformed Jack, with the Doctor as a model is still (like the Doctor) a trickster and a magician.

Of course Captain John has his own motives, many of them greedy and self-serving. But I think he also saw something of the value of Jack's life and values and in that - well, the part of him that can still feel hope must surely have felt hope.

Climbing back up from the chasm he's built himself might not be easy or even possible, but I like to think there's a part of Captain John that isn't just manipulation.

[ladyharkness.livejournal.com]

Bravo to you. You've just 'vocalised' and -more importantly- sorted into some form of coherance pretty much the sort of stuff that's been floating round with me for days.

On a frivolous note, I also completely agree with you about the 'sir' thing. :)

I hope some of the rabid Janto shippers get over the Gwen conversation, I really do. I agree with your take on it, and I think Gwen's "no-one else will have me" was her giving Jack one last chance. He didn't take it and I think they both now know that the line has been drawn. I don't like the idea of Jack/Gwen but I can see that she was incredibly good for him at times last season. He needs that level of friendship and I think that was exactly what he was offering.

I'm starting to ramble! Bravo again to you.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I also completely agree with you about the 'sir' thing. :)

I have loved that since the beginning. Especially when Jack and Ianto were sleeping together and he was still calling him "sir" - that was fun on dozens of levels, both playful and hierarchical.

I think Gwen's "no-one else will have me" was her giving Jack one last chance.

Yes. It was wishful thinking. Jack's choice was not to mess with the status quo. He doesn't want to make trouble for Gwen: he wants her to have a happy life, on her own terms. And Jack - as far as we've ever seen - is never selfish about love.

Thanks for the kind words!