Doctor Who: "Rose"...

[fajrdrako]

rosiespark and I decided to watch Doctor Who series 1 all over again, for discussion. I never really had much chance to discuss series 1 in the first place, since I came to the show when series 2 was already under way in the UK - I was a latecomer, yes. Really a latecomer compared to all those people who have been watching since nineteen sixty-whatever.

rosiespark tells me that walkingdaydream wants to join us in the talk so I added her to my flist - hope that's all right, walkingdaydream! Nice to meet you. And of course, anyone else who wishes to join in, is welcome.

So. Doctor Who series 1, episode 1, 2005, "Rose".

I suppose you could say this was a fateful episode for me, because it was the first Doctor Who episode I saw, and it plunged me into this wonderful new fandom, but that wouldn't be true. I had seen two episodes of Doctor Who before that, and they didn't take. One was something with, I think, William Hartnell. Didn't like it, don't remember it, this was about twenty-five years ago. The other was the Paul McGann movie, which ... I'm not even sure what to say about it now. My reactions to it have changed over a decade or so. Let's just way I wasn't impressed at the time.

Having heard the new series was good, some time in the late spring of 2006 I watched "Rose". I thought the story was lame. But the characters... the set-up... the dialogue... Without being bowled over, I was intrigued. Curious. I particularly liked the Doctor. Rose seemed just a kid, but the Doctor?

I wanted more. Could hardly wait for more. I'm sure I would have denied it then still, but I was hooked. Guilty pleasure, perhaps?

So now, going back from the perspective of having seen all of series 3, and the comparative sophistication of having digested a lot of Doctor Who lore in the past year... have my reactions to it changed?

I still think the story is lame. And silly. And the dialogue, compared to some later episodes, is lame and silly in some places, and brilliant in others. It isn't just Christopher Eccleston's brilliant acting - I'll swear, he could make something worth watching out of anything. Anything!

But it isn't just him. For one thing, Billie Piper is also remarkably good, in an understated way (or perhaps an overstated way? with Rose, it's hard to be sure) that is easy to overlook because it's so in-your-face. Rose is as Rose is. The more I watch, then as now, the more I appreciate Rose, an utterly brilliant character from the beginning.

For another, the... I'm struggling for the right word here. Atmosphere, perhaps. Setting. The mixing of mundane and fantastical. The lightness with underpinnings of darkness. Bits of dialogue - both humour and drama - that rise above themselves. The set up of themes that are still unfolding.

Okay, let's take this with some detail of annotation. I watched it with occasional reference to the book Doctor Who: The Shooting Scripts - which to a besotted fan like myself, is one of the most beautiful books ever. I was amused to see differences between the shooting scripts and the finished dialogue - not big differences, but interesting ones - for instance, in the book (p. 18) Mickey says to Rose, "See ya!" while in the TV show he says, "Good-bye." In another place, two scenes are transposed.

But what's really interesting is the bits of exposition that were translated into action. For instance, I love Russell T. Davies' initial description of Rose in our first introduction to her, right at the beginning. Her alarm clock has gone off. Don't we all hate the sound of alarm clocks? For obvious reasons? Don't we all know exactly what Rose is thinking and feeling at that moment? Don't we all feel the same thing? What Russell T. Davies says is:

ROSE TYLER sits up in bed, gathers herself for a second. She's 19, her bedroom's a mess, she's got another bloody day at work, and she's so much better than this.

There you have it - the major theme of series 1, and maybe of series 2. Rose's story arc, set up in its entirety. The sense of boredom and uselessness and the tedium of life - and somewhere out there, still unseen, adventure waiting to happen.

And then we come back to the very same thing in "Army of Ghosts", at the end of Rose's saga, seeing her on the bus: "For the first nineteen years of my life, nothing happened. Nothing at all. Not ever. And then I met a man called the Doctor."

Thoughts on watching:

1. It charms me that Rose's bedroom is so pink. I'm not sure why pink is a signature colour for Rose in first season - a pun on her name, perhaps? - but it works.



2. Rose kisses Jackie before going off to work. This episode sets up a lot of the Rose-Jackie relationship, one of my favourite in the series. I love Jackie; and the combination of good scripting for her, and brilliant acting by Camille Coduri, makes her incredibly real, and the nuances of the relationship between them so clear. (It's never remotely so clear regarding Francine and Martha, where the relationship is a one-note thing.) Does Jackie not work? She says (in "Doomsday") that she used to work in a shop, but she doesn't seem to work at all when we see her in series 1 or 2. Why not? Does she have some sort of pension? Pete's life insurance, perhaps? Or are we supposed to think she's on social assistance?



3. I love the scene (without dialogue) where Rose meets Mickey for lunch at Trafalgar Square. It sets up so much about their relationship and character, at its best. Which shares aspects of its worst. It's so very playful.



4. The shooting script describes Mickey as 'laddish'. I never remember or understand exactly what that means. Immature?



5. So we get the spooky bit where Rose is wandering the basement of Henrick's with the lottery money, with spooky dummies stalking her and Wilson nonresponsive and doors closing.... and then, fateful moment, the Doctor is there saying "Run!" and they run and it all begins. I found myself this time trying to track what happened to the lottery money. Right before the Doctor appears, when the dummies are menacing her, the bag of money is in her right hand. When she starts running, holding the Doctor's hand, it's gone. I guess she dropped it right before he appeared.



6. There are, in the world of television, some great first-meeting scenes. One is the first meeting of Mulder and Scully in X-Files: "Nobody down here but the FBI's most unwanted." One is the meeting of Duncan MacLeod and Methos in the Highlander episode "Methos": "...Methos?" "Mi casa es su casa." Or in Smallville, Clark Kent and Lex Luthor, meeting as Lex's speeding car hits Clark on the bridge and he goes over. I love moments like those. And I love this one: "Run!" So they run. Sets the tone for so much.



7. Just for the record, I love their initial dialogue, in the elevator. In fact I probably love all the Doctor/Rose dialogue in this episode - it's close to banter, but it's edged, it's mysterious, it's both a meeting of minds and a contrast of human and alien. I love the way the Doctor's viewpoint is just out of synch with the human, so Rose is struggling to understand him, and intrigued, and instinctively trusting. How soon does she realize just how strange he is? How soon does she realize he is an alien?



8. I don't understand why Jackie calls the person on the phone "Debbie-on-the-end" - is that a reference I don't know?



9. I like the contrast here, that Mickey and Jackie both - though the love Rose - are quite self-serving in their reactions. Jackie wants money for Rose in compensation. Mickey wants to watch the match at the pub. The Doctor has his own agenda, but it isn't that he's out for something.



10. The scene the next day where the Doctor comes to visit Rose's flat does so much to characterize him. The bit about the ears implies he hasn't looked in mirrors much since his last regeneration. We get some wonderful lines ("He's gay and she's an alien"), the byplay with the cards, and a bit of dialogue I particularly love:"What are you doing here?"
    "I live here."
    "Well, what do you do that for?"
    "Because I do."
    And I love the line, "someone blew up my job." When does she later say, "It's practically his way of saying hello?"



11. I usually hate puns but I do get a kick out of the Doctor's "Armless" line. And this might be a good place to point out that I love it that they had Christopher Eccleston use his natural accent, it adds so much to the role - I can't imagine his Doctor with another accent, and I think Ten would be much better with the Scottish accent that is natural to David Tennant.



12. Compared to most of the rest of this, I don't much like the moment of cluelessness when Rose thinks the Doctor is joking (like Mickey did) about being strangled by the plastic hand; just as I don't much like his later moment of cluelessness when he doesn't see the London Eye. (Conceptually, anyway. I love the way Eccelston acts that moment.)



13. In the following scene, the brilliant lines just follow fast and furious. "Ten out of ten for observation." Or:

    Doctor: "Is that supposed to sound tough?"
    Rose: "...Sort of."
    Followed by: Rose: "Is that supposed to sound impressive?"
    Doctor: "...Sort of."

    
    And in retrospect, his line "I'm a long way from home," is quite moving. And the double -dialogue of "the entire world revolves around you" which ends with the exchange:

    Rose: "You're full of it."
    Doctor: "Sort of, yeah."

    
    I says so much about them both: that she's impressed with him, but won't let it go to her head; that he's got a streak of self-deprecation entwined with his self-confidence.



14. And this scene includes that bit of monologue that I love so much I want to quote just for the fun of it:

    It's like when you were a kid. The first time they tell you the world's turning and you just can't quite believe it because everything looks like it's standing still. I can feel it. The turn of the Earth. The ground beneath our feet is spinning at a thousand miles an hour, and the entire planet is hurtling around the sun at sixty-seven thousand miles an hour. And I can feel it. We're falling through space, you and me. Clinging to the skin of this tiny little world, and if we let go... That's who I am. Now, forget me, Rose Tyler.

    But it is, of course, already way too late for that.



15. For the first time here I really noticed the theme of the TARDIS noise. The TARDIS is of course a whole mythic theme in itself, but this show uses the noise it makes so effectively. Rose hardly notices the TARDIS when she first sees it. Then she hears it, and has to go running back - arriving too late to see it. I am reminded specifically of two other times when the sound of the TARDIS makes people run: when Mickey and Jackie hear it at the beginning of "The Christmas Invasion", and when Captain Jack hears it at the end of "End of Days".



16. When Rose goes to Mickey's flat, why does he tell her not to read his e-mails?



17. The scene with Clive. In retrospect, I am reminded of Elton - putting Elton not in Clive's role, but in Rose's. Love the kid's line: "Dad! It's one of your nutters."
    
    And I like the way Clive is something of a Cassandra. Ominous. So much so that Rose doesn't believe him, decides he's a nutter himself. I love the line about Death being the Doctor's constant companion, but even more I like, "If the Doctor's making housecalls... then God help you."
    
    Clive is the only person actually known to us you is killed by the Nestene Consciousness. Is it a judgement on him for doubting the Doctor?



18. Mickey as plastic man: another bit that seems particularly lame to me. (And Rose again is clueless.) I rather like how it begins, though, with Mickey's hands being stuck on the lid of the trash bin. There's something convincingly nightmarish about that part. Otherwise - the scene where plastic-Mickey makes his hands into cleavers reminds me of some of the more hokey graphics of 1960s Marvel comics, where villains like the Sand-man or the Super-Skrull used to do that. Knowing that Russell T. Davies is a fan of these comics explains a lot.



19. Again in the shooting script, I love Davies' decription of the TARDIS here, at Rose's first sight of the interior: the whole place humming with suppressed energy.



20. Significant interplay about whether the Doctor should or does care about Mickey's fate, and the underlying question of how much Rose cares. Yes, she cares, but she's not dwelling on it either as they run off to the London Eye. I am a little confused about Mickey's mother, when Rose is fussing about telling her what happened: I thought we learned in "The Rise of the Cybermen" that she wasn't around, and Mickey was raised by his gran. Well, the mother wasn't dead, so maybe she reappeared when Mickey was grown. Or maybe it was just a retcon. (Not the Torchwood kind.)



21. Antiplastic. Of all the lame ideas in the episode, I love that one the most.



22. The best bit of the London Eye conversation is the moment where - for the first time - the Doctor says, "Fantastic!"



23. Love Rose's line: "The breast implants." Cracks me up. So... realistic, so insidious, so suited to Rose's quirky humour and her sense of the mundane and the bizarre.



24. The Doctor: "I'm not here to kill it. I've got to give it a chance." Nice ambivalence, when the Nestene C. sees the antiplastic and quite rightly throws a fit and the Doctor claims he wasn't going to use it. (Yeah, right.) There is an ambivalence to this whole scene that I find interesting and maybe don't entirely understand. How serious is the Doctor about destroying the Nestene Consciousness and saving everyone on Earth? Was he as helpless as he seemed? Was he manipulating Rose? I like the implications here - never fully clarified - that he is, or can be, extremely machivellian, and deceitful.


I love the way the Doctor switches back and forth from a rather formal, courtly politeness (with legalistic implications) to his own casual, forthright manner.

I love, absolutely love, the line, "I couldn't save your world. I couldn't save any of them." We don't, on first hearing this, understand the reference to the Time War. We don't realize that the Doctor is thinking of his own people too, and knows his own guilt.


25. The only thing I like about the scenes of the dummies attacking London is the bit at the end, where one of the dummies is lying there with its leg stuck up in the air.



26. When Rose says, "The end of the world," is that a foreshadowing of the next episode?



27. In the climactic scene, I like it that the Doctor appears to be giving up (I'm not convinced he is, but I'm not sure he isn't, either) - though why it would help Rose to run at this point is a mystery. If the Nestene Consciousness has taken over the planet, where could Rose run to?



28. I love it when the Doctor says with total glee, "Now we're in trouble!"



29. I loved the moment where Mickey runs in terror out of the TARDIS. I like Mickey's exaggerated cowardice throughout this section. At the time, it mostly seemed like a contrast to Rose and the Doctor. In retrospect, it's a great contrast to what Mickey himself eventually becomes - a hero. But here, it's Rose who gets to be the hero.



30. I like the way Rose has to make a decision between what she thinks she ought to do and what she wants to do. This choice is another recurring theme through the series.



31. I love the ending. Absolutely love it. In the language of series 2 or 3, she makes her choice, lured by the fateful words, "It also travels in time." But it wasn't those words that made her change her mind, I don't think. It was the fact that the Doctor came back to give her another chance to make the right decision.

I do go on and on, don't I? I'm sure there's more I'd like to say, but enough is enough... for the moment.

Comments

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I was lucky, in a sense, that I had the entire set available to me, so I went directly from "Rose" to EOTW, and by the end of that, well, how could I resist? I watched the entire series the first time through over two days. I couldn't stop. I can't even remember if I knew that CE was leaving, I just could see that his arc was ending, and I still maintain that he and RTD always had a pact that he would leave at the end of S1 (even if RTD may have hoped to get him to stay longer). It just fits CE's personality, and Nine's arc is so well-defined.

So is Rose's, as you say. If they'd dealt with her having been a god, or with her having to adjust to Ten, then they could have done something, but as it played out, it annoyed me. (Tangent: I saw someone saying today in a comment on a fic that "Rose clearly had accepted Ten by the time of the swordfight" so she - the commenter - hated TCI fic that had her doubting him or mourning Nine, etc. But while I can understand that interpretation on some level, it sickens me - it makes Rose look shallow and it negates Nine. I know why they did it, but it pisses me off on a number of fronts.) I do wish they had kept with the initial idea to have Rose leave mid-series. It would have helped enormously, particularly because I never could see the relationship between Rose and Ten being true, just desperate on her part and convenient on his.

On Billie Piper, I count it as a mark of how brilliant she is as an actor that I could get over "Because We Want To." To be fair, she'd always had a certain charisma on shows like Top of the Pops, but that song was excruciatingly annoying. It was like, "I'm an obnoxious teenager, YEAH!"

Interestingly, her decision at the end of "Doomsday" was not to save the world at any risk to herself, it was to stay with the Doctor at any risk to herself. And of course she lost her heart's desire - she couldn't stay with him.

That's true on the romantic level. Although it also seemed like a symptom of her desperation and recklessness (and, frankly, some really bad writing; I also thought that DT was so OTT in the control room it was actually comedic, which I don't think was intentional!)

It's true, Mickey (obviously) and Jackie (less obviously) had the best character development in S2. Sometimes - often, even - in ways that reflect rather badly on Rose and the Doctor.

My ten favourite moments from Jackie...hmmm, in rough chronological order:

1. the hopeful near-seduction of Nine, with the snippy face when he refuses
2. The "Arianna" moment mentioned above
3. "Stitch this, mate!" THWACK!
4. The wistful "10 seconds" at the end of WWIII
5. The bittersweet comment that Pete could always be found clinging to the youngest blonde (ouch!)
6. "Lord knows, I have hated that man, but right now I love him."
7. That bronze dress in ROTC/AoS, for sheer chutzpah
8. The "left behind" speech in Love & Monsters (best scene in the entirety of S2 for me)
9. "How very?" the non-reunion reunion with Pete in Doomsday
10. The Weakest Link (not, strictly speaking, Jackie, but when you realize how sweet CC is and how much that informs Jackie)

I feel like there's one really obvious one I'm missing, but I had very little sleep last night, and it's catching up with me!

Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 1

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Once again I have too many thoughts, too much to say, and need a two-party reply. I love this! Thank you so much for indulging my passion for character discussion.

I had the entire set available to me, so I went directly from "Rose" to EOTW, and by the end of that, well, how could I resist? I watched the entire series the first time through over two days.

How wonderful! I'd have loved to do that. But couldn't. So I was watching it at weird times - getting up extra early in the morning, for example, to fit in an episode sometimes. It helped that even though I felt obsessively addicted, I didn't want to come to the end too fast. I certainly was thinking about the story even when I wasn't watching - though I had to get beyond the lava-creature in "Rose" and the Gelth and the Slytheen, all of which remain my least favourite DW villains, all of which trigger my deep contempt of plastic monsters.

Funny thing, though - even though I still cringe at the Slytheen in "Aliens of London", I love Margaret in "Boom Town". It just goes to show what a difference a script can make.

I still maintain that he and RTD always had a pact that he would leave at the end of S1 (even if RTD may have hoped to get him to stay longer). It just fits CE's personality, and Nine's arc is so well-defined.

I agree. And though I don't know - as far as I know, they have never publicly said - I think RTD had spent years planning series 1 (when he was trying to sell it to the networks) and the consequent conceptual polish and strong writing are the result. It was his pet project, the love of his creative lifetime. When he lucked into getting such a brilliant actor as Christopher Eccleston for the role - and I seriously can't think of another actor on earth so perfect for the part, though I can imagine a few who might have done it adequately - well, that just make the resulting package so much better.

But before series 1, and without any knowledge of how successful it would be, there would have been no need to work on a series 2. By the time they knew, I think the luxury of open-ended time had passed and the intensity of thought was different - RTD had maybe not used up all the ideas he'd already had, but he'd used all his best ideas to their strongest dramatic effect. So series 2 is 'variation on a theme' and series 3 is 'aftermath'. I wonder what series 4 will be.

As for series 5 - if it has another writer, I hope it's one with ideas as strong as RTD had in 2003 or so, when DW was still in the formative stage. I can imagine them going on with 'more of the same' ad infinitum, but that gets stale, even if the actors and the individual scripts are always good - and that may not be impossible but it's certainly unlikely. It became the Star Trek problem: more of the same, over and over. Until people stopped watching because it was so unfresh.

Torchwood series 1, on the other hand, has the flavour of "a good idea hastily thrown together", which is why I hope next series shows more thought and care. And depth.

Anyway, I think it is entirely plausible that Davies saw how perfect Eccleston was in his interpretation, and made a one-series deal with him. I'd like to be able to imagine series 2 with Eccleston, and with Nine continuing through, but I really can't... I wish I could. I can't imagine what it would have been like.

I saw someone saying today in a comment on a fic that "Rose clearly had accepted Ten by the time of the swordfight" - [snip] it sickens me - it makes Rose look shallow and it negates Nine.

I'm not sure quite how to address this. My feelings are mixed. I think I deal with it by not looking too closely - and if I do look closely, I am horrified by Rose's careless forgetting of Jack. But I also wouldn't want a show that expended all its emotional energy of regrets and losses of the past, and I am accustomed of decades of reading comics like X-Men where last month's ultimate tragedy is forgotten (at least temporarily) as we go on with the next storyline.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 1

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for indulging my passion for character discussion.

I could say the same. So I will!

It helped that even though I felt obsessively addicted, I didn't want to come to the end too fast.

I had some of that, but I couldn't stop myself. The worst case of that, though, is Our Friends in the North - I always say, "Just one episode. 1964. One episode, and I'm done." And I'm still sitting there eleven hours later. I'm not exaggerating - I started one Saturday afternoon and ended up in the wee small hours of Sunday morning. Thank God it ends on at least a hopeful note, but I'm almost afraid to watch it again anymore, knowing that I'm going to end up watching the whole thing.

hough I had to get beyond the lava-creature in "Rose" and the Gelth and the Slytheen, all of which remain my least favourite DW villains, all of which trigger my deep contempt of plastic monsters.

I can understand that, although I think I have a very high tolerance as long as I like the concept. I blame it on my love of Blake's 7, which was the show I was really hooked on. I think it would be nice if the TW folk had a look at the previous DW "adult side project". It really was adult - dark, intellectual, sexy, subversive, but not in the slightly leering way that TW could get to. I'm rediscovering my love of B7 because someone on my f-list is watching it for the first time and reviewing; I know it's cheap and tacky-looking, with disco fashions, but it's good stuff.

I love Margaret in "Boom Town". It just goes to show what a difference a script can make.

Yes, and I think director, too. Keith Boak did Rose, AoL, and WWIII and there were reports that KB and CE had some real dust-ups because of the liberties KB was taking with some of the scripts, even in scenes CE wasn't even in! And those episodes do have a very high "cheese" and slapstick level. I can imagine how much CE loved that... But he and Annette Badland are fantastic in that dinner scene. And her voice when she says, "Dinner and bondage" is brilliant.

When he lucked into getting such a brilliant actor as Christopher Eccleston for the role - and I seriously can't think of another actor on earth so perfect for the part,

I've seen (in DW Magazine, maybe?) RTD's initial pitch, and it included an "intense, dark, athletic" Doctor in a leather jacket, stripped down, military but rock'n'roll, and "about 40, sexy". Hmm. Now, who could that be? He's been writing for CE since QAF, I can't imagine that he wasn't hoping for him. I do actually hope they work together again, I think they work together well on RTD's darker side. CE actually is able to ground some of the flightier elements in ways that other actors can't quite do. Well, Lesley Sharp can, too.

And yes, I can see that S2 definitely had "sophomore slump" written all over it, just covered over by the presence of the new Doctor. S3 was the experimental third album that had some knockout pieces (interestingly, all written by people other than RTD!) and quite a lot of filler. I do think RTD is pretty much worn out creatively and I think it will be great for them to have a change of team. Obviously, I'd also like an another Doctor, but it may take an elephant tranquilizer gun to take Tennant down.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 4

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The worst case of that, though, is Our Friends in the North - I always say, "Just one episode. 1964. One episode, and I'm done." And I'm still sitting there eleven hours later.

I still haven't seen all of that show - I'm seriously rationing myself. I started watching episode one while doing my exercises. I finished the exercises and then just sat down and watched the rest of that episode and the next.

I blame it on my love of Blake's 7, which was the show I was really hooked on.

I watched some of that - ! Watched the first three or four episodes, loved Avon, but hated Blake so much I couldn't go on watching. I was persuaded by friends to watch the final episode, which was... interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it. I'd try watching it again, if only Blake wasn't in it. You know how sometimes there are characters you just can't bear to see? (I stopped watching "Deep Space Nine" for that reason, too.) I rather liked the style of B7. I certainly liked the costumes and the situation. Outlaw freedom fighters - my kind of guys. I don't remember any plastic monsters. Maybe I did't get that far. It was the plastic aliens that turned me off Farscape, even though the characterization and scripts seemed good.

Yes another reason for my inordinate love of Firefly - the stuff they didn't have. Mind you, Firefly has aspects I would normally hate, and I loved it despite them.

those episodes do have a very high "cheese" and slapstick level.

Yes. They ought to be way beyond my tolerance level for that sort of thing, which is almost non-existent at the best of times. But for some reason (script? Eccleston? whatever) I feel in love with the show instead.

her voice when she says, "Dinner and bondage" is brilliant.

I love that line. But there are so many such lines and moments in that episode.

Who is Lesley Sharp?

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 5

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

S2 definitely had "sophomore slump" written all over it, just covered over by the presence of the new Doctor.

Featuring novelty over substance is always a retrograde move - one step away from the situation "no plot ideas? I know! We'll add a new character!" - which never works.

Perhaps the extreme adaptibility of theme of Doctor Who was working against it. The Doctor can be anything/anybody, within a margin. The plots can encompass a wide range of styles and situations. That's good when they have a good story, but it leaves them at loose ends when they don't.

Torchwood is an interesting situation where the opposite is the case. They have a tight situation (alien-hunters in a secret high-tech organization) and a narrow set of characters, but then tried to inject variety by making each episode a different genre - and to my eyes, it didn't work, though I love the show anyway. I love it without think it's of high quality writing or concept. With exceptions for certain episodes, scenes and situations. Doctor Who is usually written with much more polish and flair and intelligence and wit.

But Torchwood has still managed to be true to itself, while Doctor Who in some ways has not.

I do think RTD is pretty much worn out creatively

I think so too. Sometimes I think he is grasping at straws, extolling ideas - as he does so well - not because they have merit but because he can't come up with better, and because he is focussing on the business aspect of the market - 'what will bring up ratings' and 'how can we compromise becaase we can't have this actor/budget/writer'.

I also think that the 'writing for children' aspect that Davies made such a strength in series 1 is now a mixed blessing - inclining him to silliness and a lack of direction, or an excess of excess. The show was built on excess, but ever-escalating excess doesn't work, you have to reign it in or you lose it.

I'd also like an another Doctor, but it may take an elephant tranquilizer gun to take Tennant down.

I think he's enjoying his success with fans, and he's got it made. I don't think he's so ambitious an actor or thinker (despite wanting to play Hamlet, to which one can only think, 'doesn't everyone'?) to be eager for a change. I don't think Tennant is in any way stupid or even limited, but some actors live to stretch themselves and I don't think that's his approach. I think also that it's borne out by the roles he takes.

Let's see if this works: <3 and <♥>.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 5

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I have been meaning to get back to you in forever, but I've been trying to limit my LJ time while I'm writing (two stories on the go! at least the Heroes one is about half done), and these posts just keep getting further and further down in my inbox! It's not through lack of desire, just lack of energy and time.

I do think RTD is pretty much worn out creatively...

I think so too. Sometimes I think he is grasping at straws, extolling ideas - as he does so well - not because they have merit but because he can't come up with better, and because he is focussing on the business aspect of the market - 'what will bring up ratings' and 'how can we compromise becaase we can't have this actor/budget/writer'.

I also think that the 'writing for children' aspect that Davies made such a strength in series 1 is now a mixed blessing - inclining him to silliness and a lack of direction, or an excess of excess. The show was built on excess, but ever-escalating excess doesn't work, you have to reign it in or you lose it.

I have to say, I think VOTD just emphasized this. It wasn't that it was baaaaad in the way LOTTL was, it just seemed tired and bit retready. Enjoyable on its own, but looked at in the overall scheme of things, it's all things we'd seen before. I do think RTD gets awfully pleased with himself very early in the game and really needs someone to rein him in. I think on QAF (to some extent, since he left before shooting), Second Coming, and the first series of DW, that was CE. He really seems to "work" a part from all angles, and if that means telling the writer to "do it better", he's not shy about that. So far, the only person who's not welcomed that with open arms was the guy who wrote Elizabeth, and from what I've heard from both sides, CE was right. The writer hadn't really grasped the symbolism of his own script, which is not that uncommon.

But basically, I agree that both RTD and DT are very comfortable with their current success, and that's not really where great work comes from.

I don't think he's so ambitious an actor or thinker (despite wanting to play Hamlet, to which one can only think, 'doesn't everyone'?) to be eager for a change.

Re: Hamlet, I think that's true. And from the moment this was announced, I thought, "Ah. The RSC is looking for a way to get bums on seats." Because any performing arts group these days is looking for ways to keep money coming in, and the more classical, the more they're strapped for cash. Anyone who thinks the RSC is different is living in a fantasy world!

I don't think Tennant is in any way stupid or even limited, but some actors live to stretch themselves and I don't think that's his approach. I think also that it's borne out by the roles he takes.

I don't think he's stupid, either, but I have to say, I do think he's limited. In part because he doesn't stretch. He's limiting himself, and not exercising the other muscles. Most of his characters have been in quite a narrow range - I suppose Brendan in Secret Smile was supposed to be a stretch, but it didn't work for me. But he's got a fanbase now, and he can probably coast for the rest of his career.

This reminds me obliquely of a bit of praise I remember reading of CE ages ago - probably mid-1990s. The critic (I think it may have been in one of the London papers) said that he couldn't imagine CE being miscast. That's an amazing compliment. I don't even know that I agree, I can't imagine him in Jane Austen (maybe Colonel Brandon? or Captain whatsits in Persuasion?), but he might well surprise me. I've been listening to him do some radio programmes recently, and he is so precise with language, he might pull it off with the right costume, make-up, and hair. He's so elegant in Othello, you could easily imagine him being a public school boy, even with the accent.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 5

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I think VOTD just emphasized this. ... Enjoyable on its own, but looked at in the overall scheme of things, it's all things we'd seen before.

I loved it thoroughly, but I would agree it wasn't innovative. It was shallow - in a good way, but at its best, Doctor Who does better. At its best, it can be watched on a light level of what-you-see-is-what-you-get, and a deeper level of subtet that can have any level of moods. This was... unidimensional. Not a bad thing, but not a sign for renewed creative energy on Davies' part either.

But basically, I agree that both RTD and DT are very comfortable with their current success, and that's not really where great work comes from.

I'd say that series 3 had great moments and some great characters, but failed to reach its own promise, and was therefore frustrating.
Series 2 again had great moments, but never reached the levels of series 1, and was stonger in the realm of ideas than actualization of them.

Re Tennant:
I do think he's limited. In part because he doesn't stretch.

Well - self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Unless he streches, he'll never know (and we'll never know) where his limits are. He may appear to be more limited than he actually is because he doesn't take risks to extend. Remember when he was talking about how he was unsure whether to take the part of the Doctor, because he wasn't sure he could do a good job? That doesn't imply a character who wants to leap at an artistic challenge, even the challenge of playing the demanding role of a popular figure he has always loved. He took the role despite those fears.

The critic ...said that he couldn't imagine CE being miscast. That's an amazing compliment.

Oh my goodness. It certainly is.

I can't imagine him in Jane Austen

I think he could do Wentworth rather well. Not Darcy, certainly. He could also do any of the secondary/comic/annoying Austen parts. And it might even be fun to see what he could make of Mr. Darcy.

He's so elegant in Othello, you could easily imagine him being a public school boy, even with the accent.

Yes. Interesting thoughts.

Though I love Ralph Fiennes, I think CE should have had the role of Voldemort in Harry Potter. He would have made it real: I think Fiennes is just walking through it.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 5

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

Oh, and how did you make the little heart?

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 5

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

The little heart.... waaah! I don't remember!

I hope I wrote it down somewhere.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 5

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Okay, okay, I checked back and found it. The little heart was made by typing

"&" followed by the word "hearts" followed by "; "

♥

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 1

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I'd like to be able to imagine series 2 with Eccleston, and with Nine continuing through, but I really can't... I wish I could. I can't imagine what it would have been like.

I think that's further proof that Nine was always meant to be a one-series Doctor. Even the episode that I would have loved to see him in, School Reunion, is based on Rose realizing that her relationship with the Doctor is clearly not what she thought it was. And while Ten plays it that way, Nine never did. I think I've said this before, but one huge difference I see in them is attention/emotion span. Ten flits from one thing to the other; Nine seems to gather rosebuds, no pun intended. I genuinely could see Nine with a huge, full TARDIS with SJS, Jabe, Nancy and Jamie, Cathica and Suki, Lynda, Jack, and Rose, etc., and have him be able to love each of them in a complete but unique way.

My feelings are mixed. I think I deal with it by not looking too closely

I wrote a fairly long dissection of Time Crash, what did and didn't work for me, though I haven't posted it. But I ended it with something that I think is at the heart of a lot of my problems with what happened to DW after S1 - the show taught me to read it complexly, and to feel these deep emotions that were consistent over a long arc. But then, it punked out. It could have - and should have, I think - gone back to the stand-alone episodes, the weekly adventures, etc., but it kept trying to do an emotional arc that it couldn't really sustain. And the gap kept causing me to fall in to deep chasms between what was written and what I saw.

And I thought getting Martha would also be a reset button, but it wasn't enough of one, so...yeah, it's awkward and why I can't just "let go" the way I probably should. I loved it for that one series sooo much, and I don't want them to ruin it for me, but I want to watch to see if they do. It's masochistic, really.

Themes and their resolutions (or lack of)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think that's further proof that Nine was always meant to be a one-series Doctor.

I agree.

Even the episode that I would have loved to see him in, School Reunion, is based on Rose realizing that her relationship with the Doctor is clearly not what she thought it was. And while Ten plays it that way, Nine never did.

Could you explain a little? What did she think it was? How was it different? How did Nine play it? I'm probably missing nuances in the show. I don't want to jump to conclusions about what you mean here based on what I made of the show.

genuinely could see Nine with a huge, full TARDIS with SJS, Jabe, Nancy and Jamie, Cathica and Suki, Lynda, Jack, and Rose, etc., and have him be able to love each of them in a complete but unique way.

I can imagine that, too. I don't think this is accidental: I think the scrips have chosen to emphasize Ten's loneliness - and have given him an insoluble dilemma: he wants to be alone, but he doesn't want to be alone. Not so much a paradox as an ongoing inner conflict. Sometimes it works emotionally, usually briefly; often it makes no sense at all.

I wrote a fairly long dissection of Time Crash, what did and didn't work for me, though I haven't posted it.

Why not? Are you planning to? I'd like to hear it.

I ended it with something that I think is at the heart of a lot of my problems with what happened to DW after S1 - the show taught me to read it complexly, and to feel these deep emotions that were consistent over a long arc. But then, it punked out.

May be true. I'll have to think about that. Clearly it changed its emotional map, and the set-up in series 1 was more to our taste. Perhaps the problem is the lack of consistency - my inability to trace continuity of emotion from Nine to Ten. Since my notion of 'what the Doctor is and what he's all about' was entirely based on my observations on Nine, that set up a certain irritation factor when my expectations were not met.

it kept trying to do an emotional arc that it couldn't really sustain.

It certainly failed to do so in series 3.

Another thought: the character growth in series 1 was equally balanced between Nine and Rose. Separately, they each had their growth as a character. Partly it was learning to know them, partly it was, once we'd learned their situation, emotionally and circumstantially, it was a matter of seeing how they resolved it.

Nine was lost in guilt and grief with the memory of the Time Wars, but still felt himself to be protective of Earth. He met Rose, fell in love, almost lost her for various reasons at various times, helped her to find herself and found himself again through her, and then sacrificed himself to save her from the destructive strength of the Time Vortex. A nicely crafted theme.

Rose was lonely and bored, not sure what she wanted in life but not finding it. Nine brought her adventure and moral perspective and renewed her life, and she fell in love with him - and, I would guess, with his lifestyle. In "The Parting of the Ways" she found she couldn't go back to her old life, and preferred to sacrifice herself (at any cost) for the Doctor's sake, and to life/die for something bigger than herself. So she did the Bad Wolf thing and the Doctor saved her by sacrificing himself.

Another nicely crafted theme.

But in series 2, they're together, they love each other, she's accepting his lifestyle - there's no growth or change until the end, when they are involutnarily parted. It's the flip side of the 'finding each other' theme of series 1, which was partly a romance theme and partly a finding-oneself theme, or, in Rose's case, a coming of age theme.

In series 3... we have none of these things. Martha loves Ten, but doesn't grow from the experience - she's mature and self-realized when we first meet her. Ten is at loose ends, and continues to be so, and is at even worse emotional loose ends by the end of "The Last of the Time Lords". No resolution there.

So what do we have? What did they intend the theme to be? If it was just a series of adventures, why have Martha fall in love with the Doctor? Just to give her motivation for what she does for him?

Series 1, Rose and consequenecs: part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I can just as happily argue that Rose had no choice but to either accept or pretend to accept Ten in Nine's place. This begs the question of her inner feelings on the matter, which the show doesn't talk about anyway. Her love is generally kept at the non-conversational level, which is IMHO a great strength of the show even in - or especially in - series 1.

Because its market is kids, it has to be subtle about adult matters of sex and romance. Because it is subtle, it can hint at implications and feelings that TV normally won't touch, simplifying all relationships to identical monotony. But we have a 900 year old male who takes a 19 year old girl into dangerous situations in faraway places, taking advantage of her total and starry-eyed (pun intended) love and devotion. That's just the surface issue, dealt with fairly directly in the show - we've also got the relationship with Mickey, with Jack, with the Doctor's domestic issues, with his past, with their lifestyle, and so on.

So while I loved the Rose/Ten relationship, it doesn't have the depth and clarity and realism to me that the Rose/Nine relationship had. It has glaring holes all through it, and the most interesting bits - dealing with Mickey and Sarah Jane and Reinette, for example - mostly just rip those holes wider and bigger without repairing them. Which is both good and bad: it becomes more complex, but less real, and more demanding of the explanations that we just don't get.

that song was excruciatingly annoying. It was like, "I'm an obnoxious teenager, YEAH!"

I have no idea what the song sounds like, but your comment makes me think of Catherine Tate.

Mickey (obviously) and Jackie (less obviously) had the best character development in S2. Sometimes - often, even - in ways that reflect rather badly on Rose and the Doctor.

For example?

I love your list re Jackie, and I'm now composing my own list of her great scenes.

I adore your Jackie icon.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequenecs: part 2

[nina-ds.livejournal.com]

I can just as happily argue that Rose had no choice but to either accept or pretend to accept Ten in Nine's place. This begs the question of her inner feelings on the matter, which the show doesn't talk about anyway. Her love is generally kept at the non-conversational level, which is IMHO a great strength of the show even in - or especially in - series 1.

I do agree with all that - and for me, I always thought she was willfully ignoring the differences and telling herself that nothing had changed because she had no choice, though I would have liked a little grieving (I know why they didn't, but it makes her look fickle). That squeeful "I love travelling with you" in New Earth really read to me as if she were trying to convince herself as much as anyone. I think in the stated incident, I was reacting to the idea that anyone really would just immediately transfer the kind of connection she had with Nine to someone new - especially that fanon idea that Ten was made in the perfect image for her. Which doesn't even make sense given her past taste in men, Mickey (car mechanic) and Jimmy Stones (rock and roller, which is about all we know). Nine actually fits better than Ten does in that regard. But I know a lot of it is fangirls projecting their own "OMG he's so CUUUUUUUUUUUUUTE!!!!" onto Rose. I do think there's more hesitance there, and a faint edge of desperation that is only heightened by SR and GitF.

I agree that they have to be subtle about these things and that a lot of it is fandom having its way with canon, but then again, they do feed us a lot of subtext.

It has glaring holes all through it, and the most interesting bits - dealing with Mickey and Sarah Jane and Reinette, for example - mostly just rip those holes wider and bigger without repairing them. Which is both good and bad: it becomes more complex, but less real, and more demanding of the explanations that we just don't get.

Yes, this is a part of my feeling that the show and TPTB may not actually see some of the implications of things that they think will be really cool or interesting to do. This is compounded for me when I don't think the actors pull off the emotional effect they seem to be trying to project.

Mickey (obviously) and Jackie (less obviously) had the best character development in S2. Sometimes - often, even - in ways that reflect rather badly on Rose and the Doctor.

For example?

Well, I suppose they aren't really character development moments so much as springboards for them - Rose's general insensitivity in treating Mickey; Rose and Ten laughing at Mickey for holding the button down; Rose not "getting" Jackie's fear of being left behind (human, perhaps, but a bit selfish); Ten's "old Rose" stunt, which gets up my nose in a big way because it's meant to be funny inside and outside of the show.

With Mickey, what's interesting to me is that he did have his character development in AOL/WWIII - the Doctor accepted him, gave him the chance to come along, and covered for him when he knew he wasn't ready. And if you look at Boom Town, it's Rose and Jack who give Mickey a hard time; Nine banters with him (a form of acceptance), only after Mickey has insulted his ears. So in that respect, Mickey's treatment in TCI and RotC/AoS is somewhat retrograde.

I have no idea what the song sounds like, but your comment makes me think of Catherine Tate.

Here are the lyrics (http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/b/billiepiper527/becausewewantto23528.html). And it really is just as obnoxious as it appears to be. It sounds kind of like a football cheer. Luckily, I had never seen Catherine Tate before Runaway Bride, so I had no preconceptions, but I did warm to her, and she did show good timing and more chemistry with Tennant than with any of his other companions so far, even if it was a bit antagonistic. I do think he's better at light and comedic, and that could be a strength if they go that way - would also go along with the stand-alone, non-arc way that I think is more sustainable.

I love Jackie. I would make that little heart sign, but I don't know how.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 2

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I always thought she was willfully ignoring the differences and telling herself that nothing had changed because she had no choice, though I would have liked a little grieving

But if she grieves, it's an admission she's lost something. If she accepts, as she seems to, that this is Nine with a new face, then there is nothing to grieve. She hasn't lost anything.

When I watched "New Earth" the only episode of Doctor Who I'd seen that mattered was "Rose", and that possibly coloured my interpretation.

When I watched it all through in order, I was much more disturbed that Rose didn't seem to give Jack another thought.

It was only muchmore recently that I have come to think of Ten as being unlike Nine. Perhaps this is another reflection of my long experience with comic books - if a character looks different becuase he has a new artist, or has changed his costume, it still isn't a different character. You just learn to look at him or her differently. And maybe say, afterwards, "I liked him so much better before they changed artists." Or not.

I was reacting to the idea that anyone really would just immediately transfer the kind of connection she had with Nine to someone new

He didn't seem like someone new, to me. It was just the Doctor. Only now do I see him as 'someone new', and that's because of the way the storyline has gone. And judgements he has shown.

I was reacting to the idea that anyone really would just immediately transfer the kind of connection she had with Nine to someone new - especially that fanon idea that Ten was made in the perfect image for her.

Since I wasn't around at the time, and have never heard this except in quotes from you, it never affected my viewpoint. If I'd have heard it, I'd have said dismissively, "Fft, what nonsense, Nine was umpteen times sexier and more attractive than Ten, and it wasn't his looks she loved anyway. So that argument just doesn't work."

I have since come to also see the sexiness of Ten, though he still doesn't have the charisma or sexual power of Nine. And sadly, at the same time I was coming to see Ten's sexiness, I was losing respect for his morality and his judgement. Maybe even his good-will. I'm still juggling all of this.

Perhaps a certain part of our assessment of the Rose/Nine and Rose/Ten relationship depends on our interpretation of when/whether she started sleeping with one or both of them.

Re: Series 1, Rose and consequences: part 3

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Rose's general insensitivity in treating Mickey

Which I love. I love the way the Rose/Mickey/Doctor relationship is handled, and the way it develops, especially in "Boom Town" - at least where Mickey himself is concerned. I also love the reunion in "Rise of the Cybermen". In a few episodes - like "School Reunion" and "The Girl in the Fireplace" - I thought Mickey's presence was entirely unnecessary. Not a bad thing, but not an enhacement to the plot or the show.

I'm not sure I quite understand the Jack/Mickey relationship, which starts from nowhere and goes nowhere, but I take it as Jack copying the Doctor's attitude to Mickey, or believing that Mickey has treated Rose carelessly or selfishly. As for the 'selfish' angle, where does the selfishness lie? With Mickey and Jackie for wanting to keep Rose with them? Or with Rose for wanting to leave because she loves the Doctor more? I see all this as a part of Rose's maturing and aging, and brilliantly done - Mickey and Jackie both end up adjusting to the changes in her, and accepting them, and letting go - as much as they are able. While she in turn makes it clear that her choice is made, she's not going back to the way she was or the life she led, but she won't cut ties.

In fact, where Mickey was concerned, she should have cut ties much earlier. Her reasons for not doing so were normal enough - especially since she had no reason at first to think that her time on the TARDIS would last a long time, or be a lifetime commitment to the Doctor. And I think that when she did realize this, the notion that she had Mickey and Jackie waiting for her at home was a comfort through the difficult times. Now, that part, I grant, was selfish, but probably necessary for her.

Refresh my memory: what was Ten's "Old Rose" stunt? Do you mean with with Jackie in "Doomsday"?

As for Catherine Tate: we'll see what she's like in series 4. On consideration, I think I quite liked Donna's relationship with the Doctor - I particularly loved it (and I'm sure I've mentioned this before, only too often) whenever she called him a Martian. It was Donna herself I didn't like. I wouldn't want to spend any time in her company in real life and didn't really want too much of her on screen - though I was able to tolerate her for the timespan of "The Runaway Bride", which still, I might add, isn't an episode I ever feel the urge to watch over again.

I love Jackie. I would make that little heart sign, but I don't know how.

I don't know either. I should learn, because how else can I keep up my image as a starry-eyed fangirl?