More thoughts on "They Keep Killing..."

[fajrdrako]

Once again, avoiding spoilers about Jack and Ianto and Suzie's fate....

I watched the ending of They Keep Killing Suzie again, and even learned to spell it. After reading a lot of comments by fans on a lot of LJs and communities, I came to a few conclusions of my own.

(1) I think this is the first time Jack and Ianto have had sex. No affair before "Cyberwoman". No affair (until now) after "Cyberwoman". I think this because of Ianto's approach - oblique enough that if Jack turns him down, no one loses face. Even Jack doesn't catch on to what the stopwatch comment implies at first, which he would, if he had a reason to expect this.

(2) I don't think Ianto is setting Jack up for a nasty revenge. Despite his deception over Lisa, I think Ianto is utterly honest. After all his open anger, fear and threats during Cyberwoman, I think Ianto has had a change of mind and heart. I think something may be in the process of being set up - Jack may come to mistrust Ianto later, and have good reasons for it - but I think Ianto is honest here. Guileless, even.

(3) I transcribed the last bit, because I liked it. It goes like this:

Suzie: "Captain, my Captain." Do you want to know a secret? There's something moving in the dark. And it's coming, Jack Harkness, it's coming for you.

[Back at Torchwood, Tosh shoots the glove. On the quay, Jack kills Suzie. Gwen jolts awake and alive in Owen's arms. The song starts as Jack stands at the end of the quay looking at Suzie's body.]

[Now at Torchwood, Gwen and Jack exchange a long look. Jack goes to the morgue where Ianto is dealing with Suzie's corpse.]

Jack: Thank you for doing this.

Ianto: It's part of my job, sir.

Jack: No, I should be doing it, but.... [He sighs.] One day we're going to run out of space.
.
Ianto: If you're interested, I've still got that stopwatch.

Jack: So?

Ianto: Well. Think about it. Lots of things you can do with a stopwatch.

Jack: Oh. Yeah. Heh. I can think of a few.

Ianto: There's quite a list.

Jack: I'll send the others home early. See you in my office in ten.

Ianto: That's ten minutes and counting. [He starts the stopwatch. Jack is walking away.] Oh, Jack. What do you want me to say on the death certificate?

Jack: Good question.

Ianto: She had quite a few deaths in the end.

Jack: I dunno. [Thinks.] "Death by Torchwood."

Ianto: I'll put a lock on the door. Just in case she goes walking again.

Jack: Nah. No chance of that. The resurrection days are over, thank God.

Ianto: Oh, I wouldn't be too sure. That's the thing about gloves, sir. They come in pairs.

- by Paul Tomalin and Daniel McCulloch

Random observation - Ianto calls Jack both 'sir' and 'Jack'.

~ ~ ~

Comments

[atheneunknown.livejournal.com]

Maybe thats supposed to be a subtle change in relationship?

I call my boss sir, i call my lover by his first name. Maybe that was Iantos way of confirming with himself what he was about to do.


And on a side note, I love the way you analyze things. I really do, you make me really think about things that I'd very easily over look otherwise. Thanks for that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Maybe thats supposed to be a subtle change in relationship? I call my boss sir, i call my lover by his first name.

Could be. If so, that's a clue they've had sex before, since Ianto has in the past called him "Jack". I like it either way - the fact that Ianto calls him "sir" so often makes it sound unusually intimate when he calls him "Jack", which anyone else would do as a matter of course.

I love the way you analyze things.

Thank you so much for saying so!

[lonelybrit]

*blush* Yeah, have to admit I've rewatched the final scenes a few times *scuffs dirt*

Jack/Ianto? So definitely canon. Not entirely convinced it's in a fluffy, romantic couple-y way, but they definitely have an emotional attachment. It's very human that if a friendship can survive great trauma/betrayal (i.e. Lisa) it will often emerge very much stronger than before. Not entirely sure if you can call Jack/Ianto a friendship, but I think the same principle would apply. Ianto does definitely care for the Torchwood team - when Lisa first killed someone, Ianto was angry and adament that she stay away from them. The IM transcipts on the TW.org site also show that (a) he is finally starting to accept and maybe even move on past Lisa's death, and (b) possibly that his immediate response to the death was to throw himself utterly into Torchwood as a way of avoiding facing up to his real life problems.

In any case, yes, for the moment I think Ianto was just being honest, putting out that offer in response to seeing the head of Torchwood in risk of going into a slightly dispirited state. ('... If you're interested...')

I'm not entirely convinced that it will be the first time they've had sex. I do think there might have been something pre-Cyberwoman, but I'm not sure how far it would have gone. There was something genuinely hurt in Jack's reaction to the betrayal, and a tone when Ianto snapped '... and I ask no questions... just the way you like it,' that made me wonder if something beyond purely professional trust had been broken. But definitely this is the first time since Lisa's death because, yes, it's unlike Jack to not pick up on even the smallest hint of innuendo.

And regarding the name thing, yep, I liked the mix of 'Jack' and 'sir', though it's the first time I've heard anyone call Jack plain 'Captain'.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yeah, have to admit I've rewatched the final scenes a few times *scuffs dirt*

And your icon is so apropos. (Yes, me too.) It's a glorious character failing, and fun, too. Some people ski or climb mountains for fun. Some of us watch Jack and Ianto. Much less dangerous, I'd say.

Not entirely convinced it's in a fluffy, romantic couple-y way, but they definitely have an emotional attachment.

It's a nicely layered relationship. I like they way they contrast with each other - Ianto with his Alfred-like deference and his wry humour, Jack with his blunt Americanisms and his preoccupations. They've each had a hard time emotionally.

he is finally starting to accept and maybe even move on past Lisa's death

Sounds like good news.

possibly that his immediate response to the death was to throw himself utterly into Torchwood as a way of avoiding facing up to his real life problems.

Or as a way of coping with them. There's no easy way to handle the death of a lover.

putting out that offer in response to seeing the head of Torchwood in risk of going into a slightly dispirited state.

Yes. And interested himself, clearly. (Not entirely altruism.) So I think their first exchange ("looks good in a suit") was flirting, after all, and the relationship between them has been subtly percolating.

('... If you're interested...')

Oh course Jack is interested. Another bit of proof he's not dead. He's Jack.

There was something genuinely hurt in Jack's reaction to the betrayal

Well, yes. He'd trusted Ianto. All the more if there was - if he thought there was - a potential personal interest.

I liked the mix of 'Jack' and 'sir'

I did too. I love Ianto for it.

though it's the first time I've heard anyone call Jack plain 'Captain'.

I think I've heard it but I can't recall where. Something for me to think about... Yes! An example is in "The Doctor Dances" when the doctor commands him, "Captain, secure those gates!" (And Jack, being Jack, questions the order.) Then shortly afterwards the Doctor says, "It wasn't empty, Captain. There was enough nanogenes in there to rebuild a species." And the clincher: "What's the matter, Captain? Bit close to the volcano for you?" I love that line.

I'm checking transcripts now. The Doctor says it again in "Bad Wolf" and "The Parting of the Ways" but not in "Boom Town". (In TPOTW: "Rose... Captain... this is the Emperor of the Daleks." Another great line.)

So I guess there's a good precedent for this, since the Doctor sometimes called him "Captain". Which might or might not bode well for Ianto!

[lonelybrit]

Yes. And interested himself, clearly. (Not entirely altruism.) So I think their first exchange ("looks good in a suit") was flirting, after all, and the relationship between them has been subtly percolating.

Oh yes, that first exchange was definitely two-way flirting, and it set up a nice dynamic between the two of them. Though Ianto is professionally deferential to Jack, he can clearly hold his own and doesn't feel particularly off-put by Jack's innuendos. It's not actually at all clear who would be the dom/sub in that relationship.

Hmm, so the Doctor called Jack 'Captain'. And now I'm getting really bad fanfic musings about maybe Ianto has picked up somehow that Jack likes being called Captain at times, and that is precisely why. *ponders*

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

that first exchange was definitely two-way flirting, and it set up a nice dynamic between the two of them.

And raised many slashy hopes. Which is a good thing. And they've carried through on the implicit promise. Yay!

Though Ianto is professionally deferential to Jack, he can clearly hold his own and doesn't feel particularly off-put by Jack's innuendos.

Enjoys the game, I think. And plays it well enough.

It's not actually at all clear who would be the dom/sub in that relationship.

Oh, yes, there's a lovely give-and-take and they both appreciate it. A lovely balance - not stasis or an *equal* balance but a sort of give-and-take where each complements the other in their exchanges. Very interesting that in the 'stopwatch' exchange we saw, it was Ianto who made the sexual suggestion and Jack who accepted it, rather than the other way round.

Hmm, so the Doctor called Jack 'Captain'. And now I'm getting really bad fanfic musings about maybe Ianto has picked up somehow that Jack likes being called Captain at times, and that is precisely why. *ponders*

So very cool. I noticed Ianto calling him "Captain" earlier in the episode, when I was doing my exercises today. Hard to make notes while exercising, so I didn't. I'm tempted to transcribe the whole thing.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

Does anyone else think that "Death By Torchwood" should be the name of some kind of dessert? [Perhaps I'm just hungry.]

I'm getting icon bunnies, and I know I'm not going to be able to make them this weekend.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Does anyone else think that "Death By Torchwood" should be the name of some kind of dessert? [Perhaps I'm just hungry.]

I like the idea. (I'm always hungry.) What kind of dessert were you thinking of? My thought was trifle with lots of cream and bright red berries - cranberries and strawberries, maybe.

I'm getting icon bunnies, and I know I'm not going to be able to make them this weekend.

Hold that thought.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

Not cranberries - unless they represent Owen. [Cos I dislike both, see]

Too much work!

[medelle.livejournal.com]

I thought I was the only one who thought this was the first time Ianto and Jack had sex!

I think there has been a definite attraction/under current there, but I don't think Ianto would have allowed himself any sort of intimate contact while Lisa was still alive.

Plus, in Countrycide, Ianto makes the comment that the last person he kissed was Lisa. Now granted that doesn't make it cannon that this is their first time, but I sort of took it that way.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I thought I was the only one who thought this was the first time Ianto and Jack had sex!

Now there are two of us. This doesn't have the vibes of an established relationship to my eyes. Not remotely.

I think there has been a definite attraction/under current there, but I don't think Ianto would have allowed himself any sort of intimate contact while Lisa was still alive.

I think I agree, but whether he might have and didn't, or never would have, I think nothing happened between them (except that kiss in Cyberwoman) until the end of They Keep Killing Suzie.

[medelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have not gotten the established feeling either.

And I think I'm the only one who maintains that the "kiss" in Cyberwoman did not have any romantic undertones to it.

Which is interesting, because I was watching PoTW today and with Nine and Rose, I DID get a little bit of a romantic under current under similar circumstances. (i.e. Jack's "kiss" with Ianto in Cyberwoman was almost identical to Nine's "kiss" with Rose in PoTW)

Im not sure why that is.

Its not an inability or unwillingness to have slashy vibes btwn two characters, because I was all over the slashiness of Nine/Jack - it just has a different tone to me.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Its not an inability or unwillingness to have slashy vibes btwn two characters, because I was all over the slashiness of Nine/Jack - it just has a different tone to me.

Well - Nine/Jack was the most amazing relationship beside which all others pale. In my opinion. It was extraordinary in so many ways.

I'm glad that Jack now have Ianto to give him comfort. He needs it. With or without a stopwatch. As far as that goes, Ianto needs comfort too.