Sex Scenes...

[fajrdrako]

From Booking Through Thursday:

Do you have "issues" with too much profanity or overly explicit (ahem) "romantic" scenes in books? Or do you take them in stride? Have issues like these ever caused you to close a book? Or do you go looking for more exactly like them? (grin)

Issues? No, no issues. I love romance. I love good sex scenes, and they are sadly rare. I'd like to find more.

I suppose I do have an issue with sex scenes that are written as if the author didn't want to deal with sex - metaphorical flights of fancy, contrived euphemisms, lack of inspiration. I think sex scenes need the same values of all other writing: good concepts, careful word choices, convincing characterization. Above that, they need a sense of sensuousness. Funny how many sex scenes just skip that.

Scenes in fanfic can be much better than sex scenes in published stories because they are not constrained by formula or censorship. I think the odds are greater, too, that the writer is writing about sex because they want to, not because the think they ought to for sales or genre expectations.

If I've closed a book because of the sex in it, it's because the sex was boring. Occasionally I have stopped reading a book because I found the language distasteful or the attitude to sex unpleasant, but in these cases I didn't like the writer's style with other subjects either. Invariably these writers are men. And the problem is not usually sex, but sexism.

Comments

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I honestly don't think a lot of sexual detail is necessary or desirable unless the writer is definitely setting out to write a work of porn/erotica. In a story with a proper plot, it just gets in the way. I think it's far better to leave things to the reader's imagination – partly because what appeals to the writer as incredibly erotic may be a total turn-off to the reader, people's tastes are so distinct. Suggestion and subtlety can be far more interesting, and less alienating.

Also, I regard fictional characters as my friends for the duration of the book/film. I do not want to know what my real-world friends' particular kinks and habits are in bed, and do not wish to watch them in action. Ditto with my fictional friends. I like to allow them some privacy, in the same way that I don't want to follow them into the bathroom. When it comes to "naming of parts": again, I relate to characters as a friend, not as their gynæcologist, and the language used tends to be either comically over-flowery or unpleasantly crude.

I tend to skip explicit sex scenes in fiction as a matter of course. In fanfic, there is a tendency for many writers to excess, as if the only reason they can think of to write is to use the characters as sex-toys. I recall a work by a friend of mine that I simply could not read, and I felt bad about this because she was a friend. But every chapter was simply an excuse to get the hero and heroine into another explicit sexual scene, working through all the author's pet fetishes, including use of food. I didn't want to think about this with the characters, or know this much about my friend's particular interests. It also failed as a story, because the actual plot (with war, espionage, & c.) just fizzled out: it was just an excuse for the characters to somehow end up in another sex-scene, and that was all their marriage seemed to consist of.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

what appeals to the writer as incredibly erotic may be a total turn-off to the reader

This can definitely be a problem, especially with professional works, who want as wide an audience as possible.

Suggestion and subtlety can be far more interesting, and less alienating.

I agree, but speaking as a reader who likes to read sex scenes, and a writer who likes to write them, I am glad that at least some authors take the plunge and try to include them. Sadly, the publishing industry tries to put sex into romance novels in rather absurd ways -often making them simply ludicrous.

In fanfic, where people are usually writing primarily for their own amusement, it's not surprising that people like to write about sex. Most people (thankfully!) put warnings and labels on their stories, so we don't accidnetally read more sex than we want to, or read a sexless story when we want sex.

Thank goodness.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

In fanfic, where people are usually writing primarily for their own amusement, it's not surprising that people like to write about sex.

I just find it deeply depressing that so many people seem to have one-track minds, and that – with entire fictional universes to play in – all they can think about is baseness, appealing to the lowest common denominator. "Oooh! Sex!" – as if they've just discovered it. It's not 'Adult'; it's immature.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's all in the perspective! Since I like sex stories, I don't see them as immature - or at least, it all depends on the maturity of the author, as in any kind of story.

There is of course a lot of really immature stuff 'out there', and - not surprising! - a lot of it is written by the very young and the very immature. Maturity not necessarily being linked to chronological age.

The rest, as you say, is a matter of taste.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I think the prevalent fixation with body-image and physical gratification is a sign of immaturity; contemporary popular culture is nauseatingly adolescent. Stories about relationships are interesting because of the personalities/psychologies/lives of the characters involved. The physical mechanics of (to be crude) "A fucks B" are really only of interest to the characters themselves: it's just a basic bodily function. How they get there, or what happens afterwards, and what else they do in their lives are far more interesting.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I would argue - without any hope or expectation that you would ever agree - that a person's approach to sexuality can be part of their characterization, and to depict them in terms of physical intimacy is just as revealing and exploratory regarding their character as any other situation. If that's what one wants to do.

I also think it's as valid to explore sex in stories as any other topic - nothing should be off limits - it's like humour or action or anything else; it is whatever the writer (or reader) makes of it.

Besides, I think it's fun to read about - and that's the part where I don't expect you to agree!

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I think for it to be "fun", the reader has to be a voyeur/-euse.
Otherwise, it's only interesting if something particularly unusual or bizarre is happening.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've thought for a couple of minutes, and I just can't come up with a reply to this...

(Chuckling.)

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking, for example, if the sweet-and-innocent-seeming heroine turns out to be a violent sadist, for example – when it radically changes your perceptions of a character.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Re: "profanity" – I presume they mean swearing. If it's appropriate to the characters in their speech and situation, it's no problem. But it can be a lazy way to "shock" readers, or to appear to be "cool" (in the same way that it is lazy to swear to often in speech). I had an interesting discussion with a friend lately about my own use of a coarse expression in a fic, in the thoughts of an otherwise refined, sensitive character. I intended it to jolt the reader, as a sign of the character's self-disgust at something he had done: it was not his normal mode of thought or speech, and all the more expressive for that.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I usually am not bothered by whether a book has 'profanity' in it or not, but there are examples where it has bothered me exceedingly. Warren Ellis' "Crecy", for example. I have come to expect a certain kind of language in his blog, and even to expect it in his writing - but "Crecy" was extreme enough to bother me and I haven't finished it yet. I no doubt will. This is why I like his writing better when he has an editor, and when he's writing for a mainstream company.

It is also part of the reason that I like 'regular' comics better than comics from Vertigo or MAX, given other aspects of writing quality as being similar.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Yup. I wouldn't touch the novels of someone like Irvine Welch with a bargepole.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Who is Irvine Welch?

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

Author of Trainspotting and things of that nature. He is preoccupied with the sordid, usually drug-addled lives of the occupants of Leith. Said sordid drug-addled types actually regarded his work (or film versions thereof) as a validation of their lifestyle.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Said sordid drug-addled types actually regarded his work (or film versions thereof) as a validation of their lifestyle.

Egad. Scary world.

I've heard of Trainspotting but haven't seen it.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen it either, but my father was a social worker in central Scotland at the time, and said that some of the junkies he was trying to sort out actually regarded it as making them and their lifestyle look 'heroic', instead of just heroin-addled.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I guess when you're already heroin-addled, you tend to grasp at whatever cultural straws you can find.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

I suppose so. I simply cannot, cannot understand why anyone would ever want to take illegal drugs, or deliberately get drunk.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've read enough books (from Thomas da Quincy onwards, and including the psychedelics of the 1960s) but never particularly saw an appeal. Especially since I react very, very strangely to drugs in general. And I've been into yoga for so long, it discourages ingesting odd substances. And I have a horror (a phobia?) regarding drunkenness.

That being said, I'm glad other people write about the experience, and mysticism too, because I find odd states of consciousness interesting.

[silverwhistle.livejournal.com]

And I have a horror (a phobia?) regarding drunkenness.


It's only happened to me (mildly) once or twice: inadvertently, as in the time I went to a cheese-and-wine reception at an art gallery without eating first, and found a couple of glasses of wine made me slightly light-headed.

I find odd states of consciousness interesting

As they are, but one only needs to have an imagination to attain them. The greatest mind-altering drug in existence is the imagination: anything else is a cop-out and a sign of weakness.

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree to both of these. My avoidance of drunkenness was at in part due to the fact that I have at least one grandfather who was a drunkard. Having a sugar-free and alcohol-free diet imposed on me before I became a teenager also helped.

I have seldom experienced odd states of consciousness, but I agree that a good imagination (and some meditation) is usually all that is required. Mind-bending chemicals are not really necessary.

[monsieureden.livejournal.com]

I might be more of a fan of sex in fiction if I could see it written better. I rarely see it written very well and even myself find it strange to write, like it often doesn't quite fit and can not be written as subtly as I would like it to be written. I usually find myself editing it out or editing to BEFORE or AFTER the actual sex. There have been exceptions, when the sex is truly important to the story, but otherwise I find myself not very interested.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

There are a lot of very dull sex scenes. Writing a good sex scene is a talent like writing humour, or certain kinds of action... and mainstream publishing doesn't encourage it, or even give us good examples.

[acampbell.livejournal.com]

Hi, Elizabeth!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

How's things?

Nice icon!

[acampbell.livejournal.com]

You know, I find that, more and more lately, I fade in and fade out of the sex scenes. I did that when I first began writing fanfic and am now doing it again, mainly because it's so hard for me to find original ways to describe the mechanical aspects. The solution is just to leave more to the imagination.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, they say imagination and the mind is the site and source of all sexuality anyway. Works for me! But I do like a good sex scene, and am always quite thrilled when I find one.

[filkferengi]

I like Miles' crogglement when he wonders how anyone can *do* sex without a sense of play.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's a lovely bit. But Miles is always pretty good when it comes to sex. Such a nicely non-sexist hero, in my opinion, who simply enjoys and appreciates sex - and love too.