Meeting Lyn's brother...

[fajrdrako]

Lyn has been my good friend since the 1970s, but I have never met her brother Michael or his wife Heli. They have lived in Calgary for a very long time, and have never come to Ottawa - until this week.

Lyn wanted her local friends to meet them, so she rented the party room at her condo building and invited us all over. We made it a pot-luck supper, and had a wonderful time. It was a bit like a Who Cares revisited.... A Who Cares was a kind of party we used to have every second Saturday night in roving locations, in which anyone associated with local fandom was welcome to turn up, and bring their friends.

Those days of easy socializing are behind us, but we had a wonderful time. There was a vast amount of food, and Beulah brought some delicious carrot cake.

I liked Michael and Heli, too. I expected Michael to resemble Lyn's father, whom I'd met, but he didn't. Nor did he resemble Lyn. He was just... himself, I guess, which is fair enough.

Afterwards, Beulah drove me home and we dropped in on maaseru to share some of the leftover carrot cake with her and maaboroshi. (Amazing, that there should be leftover cake, with that crowd!) We chanced on the beginning of the Kenneth Branagh As You Like It which instantly charmed us (and hooked us) with its multicultural melange of nineteenth-century Americans in Japan, Tudor England dialogue, ninjas, and Star Wars ambience. (And, muttered maaboroshi and I to each other, all this and femslash too. Gotta love Branagh.)

I didn't see more than the first third of it; dying to see the rest.

maaseru said that As You Like It was the first live play she saw, and that marked the moment when she fell in love with Shakespeare and with theatre. And she hasn't seen that particular play since, not even in movie form.

I don't think I've ever seen it at all - I've just read it.

Comments

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Oops. And here I thought I had it all down right -- I can tell you that Tim Harvey has done the set design for almost every single one of Ken's films, Shakespeare or not [g].

No, Cordelia doesn't look at all like Julie Christie (the Shards-era Cordelia in my mind looks like the actress who played Rebecca Fogg in a show from a few years back called The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne -- see http://tinyurl.com/2eoo2s and do ignore the unfortunate costume). But Julie Christie played Gertrude as a strong woman caught in circumstances beyond her control, who took control of what she could and changed her world anyway. So I know what you mean.

You're welcome for the link. And I loved Finding Neverland, including all of its ambiance.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I did some google-browsing for pictures of Rebecca Fogg - she's certainly the right type for Cordelia. I'd have to see her in action to see if I think she has the right manner.

I might add that the Cordelia we see (from her own point of view) is nicely different, to my eyes, from the one we see through Miles' eyes later on - reflecting not only viewpoint but how Cordelia changes (or doesn't change) over time, and with new experiences. I wish Lois McMaster Bujold felt more inclined to write from Cordelia's point of view as Miles was growing up - but she didn't, and won't, so there you have it.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I'd have to see her in action to see if I think she has the right manner.

She has a nice sense of authority, does the fancy clothes "little girl playing dress-up" attitude beautifully, and kicks butt with the best of them. At least as Rebecca, she does. I don't know if The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne ever came out on DVD, but if it did, and you like steampunk, they're well worth watching.

I might add that the Cordelia we see (from her own point of view) is nicely different, to my eyes, from the one we see through Miles' eyes later on

Yes, she is. I think Lois does a terrific job filtering characters through both time and viewpoint. I have to say, however, that while I like the early Cordelia from her own point of view, I have a very hard time with the Cordelia-the-omniscient we get from Miles's and Mark's viewpoints in the later books. Esp. in Mirror Dance. The things she says to Mark about Miles in that book are pretty much unforgiveable for a mother to say about her child to my way of thinking, and I've never quite forgiven her comment in Memory about how she thought he would choose the little Admiral, either. Doesn't she know her son at all?

I know this is a minority opinion, however. Many have tried to talk me out of it, but I'm afraid it's here to stay. I don't insist that others agree with me about it, though.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

My first thought is to say I like steampunk a lot - at least, I think I do. But the first example I could think of that I have read was The Golden Compass, which I hated - though I liked the visuals. Could you call Winter Solstice, Camelot Station "steampunk"? Hmm. I think not. Or maybe it's the steam without the punk.

Ina ny case, I like steampunk in theory, and would like to see The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne.

I have a very hard time with the Cordelia-the-omniscient we get from Miles's and Mark's viewpoints in the later books. Esp. in Mirror Dance.

I tend to avoid Mirror Dance, so that didn't make much of an impression on me. I don't remember much about the relationships between Miles and Cordelia or Mark and Cordelia; I was less than enchanted with the impression that the Koudelka girls all adored or emulated Cordelia, as if she was some kind of feminist oracle. Funny: the relationships betwee Aral and Mark made a big impression on me, and of course the relationship between Aral and Miles is my favourite theme in all the books.

As a matter of fact, I have much less sense of the relationship between Miles and Cordelia, which looks like hero-worship on his part (though of a different kind than his hero-worship of his father), and cool curiosity in hers. We hear about Aral spending time on the floor with his son when Miles was young, but I don't recall anything much about Cordelia spending time with him. I get the impression that, though they love each other, they really don't have much personal contact.

There's nothing odd about that as it stands, but given her passionate commitment to Miles in Barrayar before he was born, I would expect something stronger in later years.

What did Cordelia say to Mark about Miles?

And yes, I had the same thought about Cordelia's "Little Admiral" comment in Memory. I do tend to think she's blind when it comes to her Betan prejudices, but surely she should know her son's character? Better than she seems to, anyway.

And there is such a nice rapport between Miles and Aral, at least to my eyes. Perhaps Lois McMaster Bujold doesn't want to deal with issues of motherhood, but doesn't mind looking at fatherhood?

I love Cordelia but often I find her puzzling. My rationalization is that Miles doesn't spend a lot of time trying to figure out what makes her tick - he doesn't have to - so the view we get of her through his eyes is off-kilter. But even so, even from a distracted son's point of view, the gaps are peculiar.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

My first thought is to say I like steampunk a lot - at least, I think I do.

I like steampunk a lot (one of my favorites is The Two Georges by Harry Turtledove and Richard Dreyfuss (yes, that Richard Dreyfuss). But mostly I like video steampunk as opposed to the literary variety.

I tend to avoid Mirror Dance, too. It's a very emotionally difficult read for me.

What did Cordelia say to Mark about Miles?

Book's upstairs, I'm down, but the gist of it was that she wouldn't have given Miles a gun, let alone a mercenary army, OWTTE. It really bothers me that with all her gungho-ness about his potential when he was a baby, she can't at least pretend to understand that she might have had just a *smidgen* to do with how he turned out. It wasn't all Barrayar's fault. And that how he turned out could have been so much worse given everything that happened to him.

But even so, even from a distracted son's point of view, the gaps are peculiar.

I suppose. I think Mirror Dance would have been improved with something from her POV, at least a mental explanation for her attitude towards Miles. I can understand why Lois didn't do it, from a craft point of view, but it's still incredibly frustrating.

The trouble with Cordelia is that her blind spots are bigger than all of Barrayar's.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll read The Two Georges. Aside from Jules Verne, what video stempunk is there?

I very dimly remember that comment from Cordelia. I can't explain it - will reread to ponder it further. It seems odd that she doesn't seem to see Miles' talents, his streak of genius - she just sees his character. And I'm not sure how much she even sees that. Does she know about the times he's suicidal? When we see him as an adult, he doesn't seem to confide in her at all, but we don't know that either - because whenever he thinks of his relationship with his parents, he seems to be thinking about Aral and Aral's reactions.

Yes, something of Cordelia's point of view in Mirror Dance or any of the later books would have been welcome.

The trouble with Cordelia is that her blind spots are bigger than all of Barrayar's.

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I used to have a Thing for the tv series The Wild Wild West back in the late 60s (do not, under any circumstances, watch the 90s movie version of same, in spite of the fact that Kenneth Branagh plays the villain -- it's just too painful). And there was a lovely little show from about 14 years ago called The Adventures of Briscoe County, Jr. that premiered one hour ahead of the premiere of this little juggernaut called The X-Files [g], starring Bruce Campbell of all people. Other than that, there's just not enough of it out there, IMHO, and I would welcome other suggestions from the peanut gallery (or elsewhere). Which was why I latched onto The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne like a limpet and was so ticked off at the SciFi channel when they first bounced it around from time slot to time slot like a rubber ball, then dropped it altogether. It was a Canadian import -- maybe it's still more available where you are.

It seems odd that she doesn't seem to see Miles' talents, his streak of genius - she just sees his character.

It seems rather reprehensible to me, and that comment was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back regarding respect for her as a character post-Mirror Dance. I find her amusing in ACC, but not redeemed.

whenever he thinks of his relationship with his parents, he seems to be thinking about Aral and Aral's reactions.

There is one line, the provenance of which I can't recall, where Miles wonders if he should have been thinking in terms of his mother before him when he set the goal of ship captain, instead of his father. Other than that, I can't think of any time he's considered her that way, although from his comments to Duv about her in their cell in Brothers in Arms it sounds like he does respect her.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've heard of The Wild Wild West - I think I thought it was a western. (And I saw the trailers for the movie, and therefore knew well enough that I had to avoid it at all costs.) I never heard of The Adventures of Briscoe County, Jr. and will look for it.

When I reread the Bujold novels (bound to happen sometime soon) I'm going to watch the thread of Cordelia's character development.

I certainly think Miles respects Cordelia, but his main bonding seems to be with his father. If Miles and Cordelia have 'issues', we haven't seen them - not that I've noticed. They seem to actually have a rather good relationship, except that it seems to mainly consist of a huge blind spot on the part of each of them. Considering that they are both fairly insight judges of character, it looks like wilful collusion.

Or perhaps I'm simply reading too much into it. Maybe they are mutually fond, but not close, not really curious about each other, and happy to be that way, since Lois McMaster Bujold doesn't want to delve into the intricacies of the relationship. Comfortably superficial, and both parties happy to leave it so.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

The Wild Wild West was a western, with SF elements (mostly outlandish gadgets), which is what made it steampunky. Briscoe County is sort of the same thing, only set a couple of decades later.

They seem to actually have a rather good relationship, except that it seems to mainly consist of a huge blind spot on the part of each of them. Considering that they are both fairly insight judges of character, it looks like wilful collusion.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but it wouldn't surprise me. Except that early on (in publishing chronology, not series chronology), in Brothers in Arms, Miles does sort of analyze his mother to Duv. I think it's the only time we see him do that. Which is too bad, actually.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I think I should reread Brothers in Arms. It's been a while.

I think Cordelia and Miles are alike in many ways, perhaps too alike to see each other clearly. Cordelia lacks Miles' genius and his background, but they're both inventive, brave, and stubborn.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I've been doing a relisten to the series recently (I was making sure my dubbed tapes are in good shape before I send the copies off to you -- speaking of which, email me at megj at nwlink dot com so we can discuss logistics a bit further, if you don't mind).

I'm about halfway through Memory now (Miles is about to come the Vor Lord with Intent at Gregor [g]) so it's all fresh in my mind.

So you don't think Cordelia is a genius in her own right? I tend to think of what she did to foil the mutiny on Aral's ship in Shards and her engineering of Miles's replicator in Barrayar show a genius for at least tactics that she might have bequeathed to her son. I may not like her much in the later books, but I do think she's very intelligent.

As somebody or other said in, I think ACC, nobody's a genius all the time...

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'll answer you on the tapes a.s.a.p., but the cost is terrifying!

So you don't think Cordelia is a genius in her own right?

Interesting question. No. I think Cordelia is clever, and resourceful, and courageous, but I don't think she's a genius. Same with Aral. They are wonderful people, but Miles goes that step beyond to utterly extraordinary.

She is certainly very talented when it comes to tactics. Yes, very intelligent, but not that step beyond 'intelligent' which constitutes genius.

I think Miles is a genius because Miles is not only brilliant, but unique - and so are his accomplishments.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I'll answer you on the tapes a.s.a.p., but the cost is terrifying!

I was afraid of that. But I'm not padding what it cost me, believe me. I'm probably undercutting myself some. I have a sneaking suspicion that you didn't realize quite how many tapes were involved [g].

I think Miles would like your assessment a great deal [g]. I do have to disagree with you about Aral at least, if not Cordelia. You'd pretty much have to be a genius at least some of the time to pull off seventeen years of being Regent of a place like Barrayar without making at least something of a mess of it.

I'm inclined to go with Professor Vorthys' assessment of what genius is, anyway. I don't think anyone's a genius all the time. Even Miles [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I feared the tapes would cost a lot, but I wasn't sure what the arithmetic would actually be. I assume you aren't about to get rid of any of that material for a while anyway.

Aral may be a political genius but if so, I don't think we actually see it - we just see the results. I see him as something else - a completent, intelligent man who has to cope with a difficult situation and heroically does so - rises to the occasion.

I don't think any genius could act to the full extent of his powers at all times. But I don't think Miles is ever ordinary and I think Aral and Cordelia often are. This is meant with no deingration to either of them, you understand - you know I love Aral more than I love Miles, and Cordelia not far behind. But I think Miles' capacity for achievement is higher than that of most mortals.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

I feared the tapes would cost a lot, but I wasn't sure what the arithmetic would actually be. I assume you aren't about to get rid of any of that material for a while anyway.

They're a set I dubbed off the library's tapes back a while ago. Then I got hold of an original set through the Bujold list at a fairly deep discount (not as cheap as what I'm letting these go for, but still cheap), so these are spares to me now.

But if I can't get rid of them, I'll probably tape over them -- there's a couple of other series I can get through the library that I'd like to own. So don't count on them being around indefinitely [g].

You're right that we don't see Aral acting all that much, except for towards the end of Barrayar when Vordarian tries to pull his coup. I do think we see his genius then. Maybe not as much as we would if Cordelia, who really doesn't understand Barrayaran politics all that well yet, wasn't the POV character. I feel sort of the same way about Aral's actions in Shards.

But I don't think Miles is ever ordinary

I don't think Miles ever has the chance to be ordinary, frankly. Even on the most petty levels, let alone the unpetty ones. Listening to Memory over the last few days and seeing the kinds of everyday things he takes for granted (being foster brother to the Emperor, thinking of the Chief of ImpSec as an honorary uncle, the sheer whole servant and privilege thing that we see in his actions regarding Martin and so forth) makes me think that Gregor's line in ACC about the fish being unaware of the water he swims in a lot more astute than it seems on first glance.

And I am a Miles partisan. I like Aral, but I adore Miles. And Miles, by a lot of standards, is a spoiled brat [g].

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

With a big sigh, I'll have to pass up on your tapes, because I just don't have the money at this point. I'll have to try to acquire them one by one commercially, when and as I can afford them.

I think Aral and Cordelia are both utterly heroic, especially in Barrayar. Which is why I love them so.

Gregor's line in ACC about the fish being unaware of the water he swims in a lot more astute than it seems on first glance.

I love that line. I do love Gregor!

Miles as a spoiled brat? How do you see that? I'd say one of the things I most love about him is that he isn't a spoiled brat in any way - he's just himself. He doesn't allow his environment to shape him, he shapes it, and does it so naturally he doesn't realize that this is unusual.

I love Miles, of course. I love Aral more, but that's because I find Aral sexier - we're too deeply into Miles' point of view for me to see him as sexy.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Well, if you change your mind, email me, because who knows when I'll get around to taping over them [g].

Miles as a spoiled brat? How do you see that?

I think it's how I feel about most novels about aristocrats, actually. Memory just shows more of it than the previous books in the series because it's the first book where we see Miles as Lord Vorkosigan on Barrayar for any length of time. I think it's the way he takes having money and servants for granted, and the many little comments, say for example, the one to Illyan at the end of the fishing scene where they pawn off cleaning the fish on Martin ("that's what minions are for") and so forth and so on. He's not nasty about it, like some aristocratic characters are, and he does care about his subordinates more than most, but it's still -- he just takes it for granted.

But I have to say I feel that way about many of the historical romances I've read and enjoyed over the years, too.

Having servants and being independently wealthy tend to equate in my mind with being spoiled, just on general principles.

we're too deeply into Miles' point of view for me to see him as sexy.

This is not a problem for me [g]. Then again, I used to be married to a man who was very like Miles except that he had much less heart.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

He's not nasty about it, like some aristocratic characters are, and he does care about his subordinates more than most, but it's still -- he just takes it for granted.

Right. I don't see that as being a spoiled brat, just an acceptance of the hierarchy of Barrayar. But I take your point. He's less independent than we might expect from a hero. The fact that he started his military career as a General doesn't help.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Admiral [g]. But, yes. As his mother once said, egalitarians don't have any trouble adjusting to an aristocracy as long as they get to be the aristocrats.

Like mother, like son???

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Like mother, like son???

Sounds fair to me!

It would be interesting to speculate what Miles would be like if his father had been of low rank and status. Of course, if he was, the Soltoxin attack would not have happened... Unless he was someone accidentally caught in it.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

Well, he'd be dead, if his father hadn't had the status to get him the treatment [wry g].

Or, if he hadn't gotten hit with soltoxin, perhaps another Ivan?

Nah.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Well, he'd be dead, if his father hadn't had the status to get him the treatment [wry g].

Possibly. But if his mother was, say, a servant of Count Vorkosigan who was caught in the attack, I'm sure the Count would take responsibility. But he wouldn't have Cordelia's unshakable determination in the matter, and she wouldn't have the resources or the clout to get them. Point.

It's an interesting question, though, and so is the opposite: if Miles had been born of normal size and strength, what would he have been like? Would he be as hyper? or as much of a genius?

I guess there's no way to answer these questions except to re-imagine the stories as many possibilities - alternate universes.

I'm rather glad Miles is as he is.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

if Miles had been born of normal size and strength, what would he have been like? Would he be as hyper? or as much of a genius?

I've wondered that on occasion. I'm sure most of Lois's readers have at one point or another. It's almost impossible to divide Miles from his disabilities, though. They're such a large part of his identity, and in such a positive way (although he obviously doesn't think it's positive [g]). I've always assumed he's much better looking than he thinks he is, too, given his love life...

One of the things I liked best about the beginning of Komarr is the description we get of him from Ekaterin's point of view rather than his own for a change. Other than her being startled by his height (I have a tendency, when I run across people who are shorter than my own 5'3", to think, oh, there's someone Miles's height! -- and really, 4'10" isn't that short, even for a man), she describes him as looking pretty normal. A faint hunch, lean but solid. And we all know he's got charisma coming out of his pores...

I wonder if he hadn't had to perfect charm as a strategy when he was a kid, if that's what would have been the most different about him had he not been disabled.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It's almost impossible to divide Miles from his disabilities, though.

Yes. It's so much a part of what he is. The body affects the personality. I too think he's better looking than he thinks he is: he has a skewed image of himself. He doesn't even see how clever and hyper he is. Which is really part of the fun. We see him through his own eyes and through our eyes at the same time.

Yes, the need to hone his talent for charm might be part of his situation. And given how long and hard he had to fight for the ability to walk, that perhaps led to his perseverence when the going gets difficult.

If he had been perfectly normal, would Aral have spent so much time with him during the Regency years, when he was young? That close attention from his father might have further developed his verbal and reasoning skills, and his sense of strategy.

[mmegaera.livejournal.com]

If he had been perfectly normal, would Aral have spent so much time with him during the Regency years, when he was young?

You'd hope so, but perhaps he wouldn't have felt the urgency to do it.

I've been listening to Paladin of Souls lately, and the description Illvin gives of his and Arhys's childhood maps very closely to Miles and Gregor -- Arhys the heir with the missing father, raised by Illvin's father alongside him. Except that Arvol dy Lutez was a reasonably good man with a very bad reputation, and Serg Vorbarra was the exact opposite [g].