Torchwood: Captain Jack's sexuality...
Feb. 8th, 2007 11:31 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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becky_h initiated an interesting discussion about how Captain Jack is not a slut on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif){kind=small}
torch_wood yesterday, and while I've only read part of the commentary so far (and plan to return to read more) I wanted to first voice a few thoughts of my own about the subject. And let me start by saying it's okay if he is a slut. I have liked many heroes who were promiscuous, some of them even bisexual and promiscuous, and I love them all the more for it. And that's what I thought I was getting with Captain Jack. We had all sorts of reasons to think so. The Captain Jack we met in Doctor Who was flirty and sexy and introduced as seductive from the beginning, with both Algy and Rose. Even in "Bad Wolf" and "The Parting of the Ways", after he's been with the Doctor and Rose for a while, he's a exerting his charm towards those around him, and the Doctor accuses him of flirting.
Then we get the advance publicity for Torchwood. Lots and lots of talk about 'omnisexual' Captain Jack. The producers say he'll go for anyone with a postal code. John Barrowman says he'll go with anyone with a hole. Lots of talk about his general sexiness, his bottom, hints of graphic sex and/or nudity.
The truth is, it isn't hard to have more graphic sex than you get in Doctor Who.
So then we get Torchwood and Captain Jack's flirtation is notched down a peg. Over the course of the first half dozen episodes, he talks about kissing alien life forms, having had a twin acrobat boyfriend, having a long list of past lovers.... But in the present, what? He kisses an alien to keep her alive. He kisses Ianto when he's half-conscious. (Nice moment, though.) He is sweet and loving to an old woman he'd had an affair with when she was seventeen. He cuddles Gwen a little in the gun room, but when she kissed him in "Day One", he didn't even kiss back. The only time he flirts with Gwen at all, is when he thinks she won't remember afterwards. When Gwen shows interest and curiosity in him, and possibly more, he sends her home to Rhys, telling her not to mess up the relationship she has with distractions.
And really, in a show where sex is an ongoing theme, it was soon pretty clear that everyone was getting some except Jack. We see him sleeping alone, obsessing over his work, apparently spending all his time at the Hub. The only lovers he mentions are past history.
And more and more we see his sense of compassion - towards Tosh, Gwen, John Ellis, Jasmine and her mother. By the end of "End of Days" we see his capacity to love everyone on his team. And yes, we know he has sex with Ianto - presumably on more than one occasion - but what we see is the warmth and the human connection, and it's Ianto who propositions Jack, not the other way round - Jack is, in fact, surprised when he does.
And for the original Jack... Attracted from the first moment he saw him, our Jack backs off, and keeps sending the other Jack back to Nancy. What we see between them is more romance than sex. Jack isn't chasing after Jack for his body. Jack is weeping because Jack will die and he can't save him.
So it's more and more clear that Captain Jack isn't all about sex, like we might have expected. He's all about love. He cares.
I like that.
He's also obviously very sensuous, and would probably be having sex with any number of people if it didn't bother him so much to lose them afterwards. I like it that his capacity for love is not equated with monogamy.
I was surprised when he criticised Gwen for her infidelity to Rhys, but it made sense when you look at it from his point of view: he didn't want Gwen to hurt or break that relationship. He saw the love there, and saw its value, and didn't want it lost - or worse, thrown away through carelessness.
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Date: 2007-02-08 05:36 pm (UTC)...And also for there to be at least one member of the team who had a regular life outside that wasn't damaged by working for Torchwood.
Jack has, I think, learned a great deal since he was with the Doctor; he's got baggage to carry from that, too.
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Date: 2007-02-08 05:54 pm (UTC)Yes indeed. I think that's important to Jack - especially after he saw what happened to Suzie, how her obsession over Torchwood made her into a killer with no sense of proportion. When Gwen later says 'everyone here ends up alone' - I think that's exactly what Jack doesn't want.
Jack has, I think, learned a great deal since he was with the Doctor; he's got baggage to carry from that, too.
Definitely, and in several ways. As I see it, the Doctor gave him a life where he was happy - on the TARDIS - and then snatched it away, leaving him with a strong sense of duty but no sense of understanding.
Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura,
ché la diritta via era smarrita.
...Though whether I am symbolically casting the Doctor as Virgilio or God I'm not sure. Maybe both. In any case, I can see Torchwood as Jack's Inferno, an underground place of learning, compassion, fear, loneliness, occasional despair and ultimate hope.
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Date: 2007-02-08 05:58 pm (UTC)That's a beautiful metaphor.
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Date: 2007-02-08 06:03 pm (UTC)The more I think of it, the more I like the way it follows through.
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Date: 2007-02-08 05:52 pm (UTC)but to move away from the level of character and toward the level of structure: Jack's sexuality is always, always other. I'm talking about the way in which it is presented: when it comes up, the writers are always quick to throw in some sort of reference that says "...but he likes girls too!" or "but he likes boys too!" or "but he'll fuck anything, really!" his sexuality, when it appears, always appears with multiplicity: twin acrobats is a good example, because it's not "I had a boyfriend" but rather "I had a boyfriend...and also had sex with his twin." another good example is when Gwen asks him what his last kiss was; he makes a joke about non humanoid life forms, which takes a situation in which he would normally have made a (temporary) gender object choice ("my last kiss was this girl" or "my last kiss was this guy") and makes his sexuality multiple, other.
my point in saying all this is not "oh it's great that his sexuality is so open" but rather that it's interesting that the writers seem so anxious about always portraying him as having multiple desires at the same time. is this just the old bisexuality cliche (they can't ever be satisfied with one person, because then they wouldn't be actualizing their "whole" sexuality)? there is something crucial at stake in representing "omni" in this way - not just over the course of the show, a girl this week a boy that week, but always, ALWAYS at the same time. I just haven't quite put my finger on it yet.
and, uh, if these insane ramblings aren't enough for you, I did a bit of a queer reading for "Greeks Bearing Gifts" that you might like, here (http://graycastle.livejournal.com/387814.html). I think I wrote that before you friended me, but am not sure. :)
part 1
Date: 2007-02-08 07:19 pm (UTC)I don't think this is accidental. I think they ... roped us in. I think we were (slightly) conned, in the best possible way. I think John Barrowman is sincere in hoping and suggesting that Captain Jack may in sereis 2 get more in the way of sex scenes. Given the parameters of sexuality we have seen in the show so far, I suspect this might mean sex with a woman, since they are still shy about showing anything more than a kiss between men; we shall see.
I am so tired of the media talking about his sexuality etc.
I'm tired of hearing about Barrowman's sexuality, much as I enjoy the subject - as he said, if an actor is straight, they don't keep referring to them as 'the heterosexual actor' so why should he be so often called 'the gay actor'?
Well, there are reasons for it, though not necessarily good reasons. It's newsworthy because most actors are not gay and out. It's newsworthy because sexual orientation is still a contentious, controversial issue. It's newsworthy because he married Scott - formed a legal partnership, rather - and that's still a controversial issue. And it's newsworthy because he is not playing a straight character on Torchwood, which is amazing in itself.
So the question of Captain Jack's orientation is significant because he is a first. There's always been a default assumption that action heroes are straight. And there's always been a defaul assumption that if a hero isn't straight, he's homosexual - bisexuality is on the radar but only barely, and usually reserved for villains. So this makes it an important issue on a sociological level, including the attitude of the producers and the reactions of the public - and the critics. And the fans, like us.
but to move away from the level of character and toward the level of structure:
I love talking about structure. I worship at your feet for raising the issue.
Jack's sexuality is always, always other.
Hmm. I'll have to think about that.
his sexuality, when it appears, always appears with multiplicity: twin acrobats is a good example, because it's not "I had a boyfriend" but rather "I had a boyfriend...and also had sex with his twin."
See also the plural executioners, whatever their gender, mentioned in "The Empty Child". I've heard Jack's sexuality referred to as ambiguous and I think that's totally the wrong word. It may be elusive, or complex, but I don't see ambiguity....
More to follow immediately...
Re: part 1
Date: 2007-02-09 07:58 am (UTC)While I agree with you that sometimes John's sexuality is overly talked about, this one isn't quite as cut and dried - how often do we see huge magazine spreads of the latest Hollywood wedding, like Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes or Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban or insert recent marriage here. And the photo shoots with the babies (Gwyneth Paltrow springs to mind).
Slightly tangential but this one isn't quite so all about the sexuality as the others, IMHO.
Re: part 1
Date: 2007-02-09 12:26 pm (UTC)No, this is a case where it would probably be the same regardless of the gender of the person he married. It's celebrity news. But it stills falls under the heading of 'why the media talks about him being gay' - it's all part of the parcel that is his life. So sometimes the media just reflect that and sometimes it's labelling. That that isn't something the celebrity gets to choose.
And it seems to me that I hear way too much about Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, even when I try not to. (groan)
Re: part 1
Date: 2007-02-10 12:40 am (UTC)For someone like John Barrowman it's his sexuality which is always being pointed out.
With the latest Hollywood wedding it would be mentioned about the actor (e.g. Tom Cruise) probably something like:
"and of course you're married to the lovely Katie Holmes and have a daughter, Suri (?) with" and on with the interview.
But for someone like John the interviewer is more likely to say something like:
"and of course you're gay and have recently (married/legal partnered)... Scott (is it?)" and on with the interview. His sexuality is nearly always mentioned whereas for the straight actor it's just mentioned that they are married to whoever and carry on with the interview. They don't mention that the actor concerned is specifically straight.
Sorry for jumping in here it just seemed you had misunderstood the aspect of that comment.
*Note to self, need Torchwood icon*
Re: part 1
From:part 2
Date: 2007-02-08 07:19 pm (UTC)I'm not sure yet that I agree he's being shown with 'multiple desires at the same time', since I would argue that we see his love for Estelle (in the past) as being both heterosexual and one-on-one. Moreover I don't think his love for the original Captain Jack - where we see the entirety of the relationship - was mixed with any other person or feelings at the same time. Jack may have been concerned about Tosh at the time, but his feelings were all solidly focussed on Jack.
That being said, we get this sense of double-love and double-vision repeated enough that it's an important theme, and I would say that its most important aspect is in his relationship (not necessarily sexual) with the Doctor and Rose. He cares for them both; he kisses them both; he dies for them both.
This may be a sort of clash and conflict of themes. On the one hand, we have the television trope of not tying the hero down as half of a couple, which takes no regard to orientation, and leads to the girlfriend-of-the-week pattern we remember from Captain Kirk in Star Trek. On the other hand, we have a hero whose omnisexuality is a thematic point they aren't about to drop.
is this just the old bisexuality cliche (they can't ever be satisfied with one person, because then they wouldn't be actualizing their "whole" sexuality)?
I don't think that's it - good heavens, I hope not! I think the show is too smart for that. I suspect it's an attempt to cover all the angles with one character - and there are a lot of angles. I do suspect it is also deliberately polyamorous: Jack can and does love more than one person at a time, including a wide spectrum of love.
I just haven't quite put my finger on it yet.
In an interesting point. Please let me know any more insights you come across - I've been wrestling with it too, and haven't sorted it out enough in my head to post about it yet. I have other points in my head about Jack 'loving the alien' that I'll think through and post (I hope) shortly.
Thanks for the link! I'll read it as soon as possible. (Things suddenly got busy here at work, drat...)
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Date: 2007-02-08 09:08 pm (UTC)His meeting with the Doctor and Rose sobered him up a little, and the faith they showed in him gave him impetus and purpose. Yes, he flirted with them both and had a lot of fun but he also made an emotional connection with them. The kiss he gave both of them on Satellite 5 didn't seem sexual at all - it was for luck and strength and thanks and, as it turned out, goodbye.
Torchwood Jack certainly has a reputation, and it's clear that he likes to maintain it as he makes many of the comments that enforce our ideas about him. Does Tosh say he will shag or snog anything as long as its gorgeous enough? I don't remember off the top of my head, but either way there seems to be some evidence that he's still active *cough*.
I thought it was much more interesting that he was almost reluctant to pursue or even recognise what was happening between him & Jack in 'Captain Jack Harkness'. Old sexual adventurer Jack would not have done that.
But is he all about sex? Definitely not, but then I don't think he ever really was. I am, however, surprised that they have yet to show Jack using his sexual nature to help Torchwood in its cases. The closest they've got is his flirting with the policewoman at the start of 'They Keep Killing...', but that fell flat when he had to humiliate himself by begging for her help.
And don't get me started on Jack/Ianto - to me, it seems to be more about comfort than anything deeper. (I just heard a thousand fangirls calling me a traitor - lol)
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Date: 2007-02-08 09:33 pm (UTC)True. It's important to remember that he isn't static. He changes according to time and circumstance. And we mustn't forget that we have a significant gap in his story - and before that, more gaps in information than information. What do we know? That he went to war at a young age. That he was at one time a Time Agent, and left after his memories were stolen, that he then became a con man preying on the Time Agency, and then spent some time on the TARDIS before being left on Satellite Five. And then, next we know, Gwen Cooper meets him in Cardiff in 2007 or 2008, and he's in charge of Torchwood there... And we really don't know the duration or timeframe for any of this, except that the period missing from his memory was two years long.
I read some of that sexual fearlessness as loneliness and his need to make a connection.
I agree absolutely.
he flirted with them both and had a lot of fun but he also made an emotional connection with them.
No sex, you mean? I certainly agree about the emotional connection. With or without a sexual connection. With or without a requited sexual connection.
Does Tosh say he will shag or snog anything as long as its gorgeous enough? I don't remember off the top of my head, but either way there seems to be some evidence that he's still active *cough*.
I think that reference (and she said 'shag') is ambiguous. We don't know how much Tosh actually knows but it doesn't seem to be a lot - I would suspect she's mostly been noticing him looking at other people, and seeing his general tendency to flirt. If he were sexually active at that point - and he may have been - I find it hard to believe that Tosh would know much about it.
he was almost reluctant to pursue or even recognise what was happening between him & Jack in 'Captain Jack Harkness'. Old sexual adventurer Jack would not have done that.
Oh, yes, absolutely. He was hanging back even when the original Jack was rather blantantly chasing after him. Pushing him towards Nancy even when Jack was making it quite clear that Jack interested him more than Nancy. Our Jack was downright shy with him. I can think of a lot of reasons for that, but it's interesting to see whatever the reason.
The closest they've got is his flirting with the policewoman at the start of 'They Keep Killing...', but that fell flat when he had to humiliate himself by begging for her help.
I'm hoping she will be back next series, and more will develop there.
don't get me started on Jack/Ianto - to me, it seems to be more about comfort than anything deeper.
Yes, yes, well said! I agree absolutely. Both that Ianto needs comfort and Jack needs to give comfort - and find some comfort in his loneliness.
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Date: 2007-02-08 09:54 pm (UTC)Absolutely. The way Ianto is shown initiating the stopwatch business in TKK always seemed like an offer of comfort after a long, difficult day to me rather than the start of a romance. Harsh but I'm glad I'm not the only one!
I could go on and on - I told you I love the discussion!
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Date: 2007-02-09 01:17 am (UTC)I wasn't - in my head there's a large gap between sharing and cheating, and Gwen is on the uncool side of it.
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Date: 2007-02-09 02:05 am (UTC)Well, I agree. Most people would agree, or perhaps be even more judgemental. But... Jack had let it slide to such an extent that by that point I thought he didn't care. It was something of a relief to see that he did.
Still, it's something of an inhibition towards writing Jack/Gwen now.
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Date: 2007-02-09 02:21 am (UTC)maybe he saved it up for effect
... bad effect, as it turned out, but...
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Date: 2007-02-09 04:36 am (UTC)As I said over in the original discussion, I don't think "willing to shag anyone" equates to "must shag everyone", and I think that's where the original poster had some objections to Jack's characterization in some fics.
I like your version of Jack. I like it a whole lot.
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Date: 2007-02-09 05:10 am (UTC)I was a great fan of the exuberant, flirtatious, outrageous Captain Jack we saw in Doctor Who. But I love the way they've deepened and nuanced his character. Sometimes I think he's a little too broody, but in some ways that only makes the contrasting moments more interesting. And I totally love the way he has become such a figure of nurturing, compassion and caring.
I don't think "willing to shag anyone" equates to "must shag everyone"
No, not at all. I agree with you, and that is well phrased. But until "They Keep Killing Suzie" what we were getting was neither of the above, it was "he doesn't shag anyone". I'm not saying that was disappointing - it wasn't - but it wasn't what I expected, and given the set-up, it was mildly perplexing. Of course it fed into my own personal interpretation and hope that he was pining for the Doctor, and I didn't mind that at all.
that's where the original poster had some objections to Jack's characterization in some fics.
Some fics inexplicably feature a character by the name of Captain Jack that I just can't recognize at all. If it weren't for the greatcoat I'd think I was reading the wrong fandom! And there is something deeply disturbing about that - probably indicating that I'm a little too wrapped up in my love of the fandom in general and Captain Jack in particular, but I'm not going to complain about that, it's all way too much fun.
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Date: 2007-02-09 08:01 am (UTC)Some fics inexplicably feature a character by the name of Captain Jack that I just can't recognize at all. If it weren't for the greatcoat I'd think I was reading the wrong fandom!
You know, I could make a really bitchy remark here and I don't see a reason not to.
Maybe the authors are mixing up their Captain Jacks. I have honestly read a lot of Torchwood CJ fic that reads more like Pirates Of The Caribbean CJ characterisation.
Okay I know that's too much to hope for but honestly I do wonder about it at times!
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Date: 2007-02-09 02:51 pm (UTC)make him too shallow
I agree that I wouldn't want a shallow Jack, but I'm not sure a promiscuous Jack would necessarily be a shallow one. I think the problem is that we are taking fragementary comments meant as five-second PR bits and looking closely at them - and such comments by nature are shallow oversimplifications, regardless of the subject.
But the implications were not what we got, and that is a good thing, because what we got was better.
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Date: 2007-02-09 03:36 pm (UTC)But if he was shown to be exactly that same way after being stranded on the Gamestation, the only person alive with a ruined Earth below him, thousands of years out of any time that he was familiar with (maybe), and then wandering all over time and space for who knows how long, realizing he's maybe not even what qualifies as human anymore...if he hadn't changed at all after that, then that might be shallow.
And you're right, a promiscuous Jack is not necessarily a shallow one. But the PR comments seem to indicate a Jack with no discrimination, no taste, no sense of anyone's gratification other than his own, and no other motivations or driving forces...and that would be shallow.
But perhaps you are correct in that we are over-thinking this. :)
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From:no subject
Date: 2007-02-09 05:33 am (UTC)Yes. There's so much more I could say in so much depth, but yes. Sex with Jack is something that strikes me as about being about life and connection and fun and play. It doesn't have to be about loves of lifetimes for him, no, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean there isn't some underlying emotion with it, or need beyond an orgasm.
He's connecting. He's reaching out. We've seen time and again how giving Jack is. I'm not saying sex is a huge sacrifice for him (er, duh?) but it certainly is something he can give of himself to people he likes and cares about.
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Date: 2007-02-09 03:02 pm (UTC)I thought you did - and you raised a few points I still want to comment on, if only I can find the time.
Sex with Jack is something that strikes me as about being about life and connection and fun and play.
Yes.
I'm not saying sex is a huge sacrifice for him (er, duh?) but it certainly is something he can give of himself to people he likes and cares about.
Yes. He's very sensual and enjoys the physical, but it goes beyond the physical for him.
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Date: 2007-02-10 12:39 am (UTC)Jack is a character that enjoys sex, thinks about sex, likes to get when he can, and can sometimes come off as slutty given his outspoken exploits--but it doesn't mean there's an absense love or judgment. Doesn't mean he can't be hurt or pine for someone. I just think of Jack as a very sexual being who communicates and recreates best when he is engaged with someone, be it physically or emotionally. He just doesn't have the cultural bias to look at any other way but natural. JMO.
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Date: 2007-02-10 12:48 am (UTC)Which I think is really nice to see. Jack is truly sensuous, and that's not a quality that is often played up in action heroes.
He just doesn't have the cultural bias to look at any other way but natural
And isn't that great to see?