The Piraha..

[fajrdrako]

A fascinating article:
The Interpreter - Has a remote Amazonian tribe upended our understanding of language? by John Colapinto.

When I read The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker, I was extremely impressed. It was my first introduction to Noam Chomsky's theories, and to the neurological model of linguistic studies. Fascinating. And ever since then, when I read about the linguistic controversy - is language preprogrammed into our brains? how much psychological freedom do we have in linguistic formation? - I tend to float towards the Chomsky/Pinker side of the debate. It makes so much sense to me.

But it may not be the whole story. I'd say the culture of the Piraha just proves that humankind is capable of all sorts of interesting diversity.

Or maybe it's more than that. Perhaps they have a deficiency of some sort of DNA, or an unusual chemical make-up that makes them see the world with unusual pragmatism.

Comments

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

Isn't that the greatest article?!! I read it in the magazine a couple of weeks ago.

Maybe they're from another planet.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Isn't that the greatest article?

Isn't it, though! I love it when some aspect of the world has started to (however tenuously) make sense, and then along comes some huge piece of reality to contradict it. It must be like the Doctor's delight every time he encounters something "impossible".

As so often, I see a pattern of discovery - that the evidence is examined, there's a theory formulated, a good theory that gets more and more complex as all the ramifications are studied, and then kablooey, here comes a big piece of information that just makes it the whole picture more perplexing than ever.

Maybe they're from another planet.

It's scary the way that actually makes sense.

[idiotgrrl.livejournal.com]

Hie thee over to Ozarque's Journal and look for any and all Piraha tags. She's a professional linguist (retired).

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Oh, wonderful - thanks for the tip!

[duncanmac.livejournal.com]

I should note that John McWhorter, in his book _Doing our Own Thing_, states that all pre-literate languages (and, indeed, most common speech as against rhetoric) lack the tendency toward recursion that Chomsky seems to insist on.

And yes, I knew about ozarque, though I have not read much of her journal lately. She's better known as author Suzette Haden Elgin.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

all pre-literate languages (and, indeed, most common speech as against rhetoric) lack the tendency toward recursion that Chomsky seems to insist on.

Interesting observation. How reliable is McWhorter?

Perhaps there are stages of linguistic formation that evolve with culture.

[slartibartfast.livejournal.com]

Oh wow. I'm reading the article at the moment. I have to make a note to talk to one of my linguistics lectures, Martin, about this when I go back to university - he should have some interesting things to say on it.

The above comment is interesting too, I didn't know that.

Now you've got me all excited!

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Martin .... should have some interesting things to say on it.

If you talk to him, and if he does, please pass it on - I find this subject fascinating and don't have a lot of linguistics experts around me to talk to about it.

Glad to have excited you! It excited me, to.

And I have to confess that I had a reaction that was typical of what I feel when faced with new information that contradicts old: is it like the Tasaday, is this bogus in some way?

[slartibartfast.livejournal.com]

I will pass it on, hopefully I'll remember to talk to him about it. He's the most interesting linguistics lecturer I've met at my university.

Oh I know, obviously a bit of doubt when it comes to these things is useful, but the tendency some loyal Chomsky followers have to ignore any possible contrary evidence is a bit worrying. We should question everything. Though I think Chomsky is onto something amazing, I doubt any one person could come up with the definitive answer. Perhaps he's just found the start of an answer.

One of the most interesting parts of the article, I think, was this bit:

Other tribes, in Australia, the South Sea Islands, Africa, and the Amazon, have a “one-two-many” numerical system, but with an important difference: they are able to learn to count in another language. The Pirahã have never been able to do this, despite concerted efforts by the Everetts to teach them to count to ten in Portuguese.

That's either a sign of some kind of bogus evidence or something, I don't know; but if it's true, that surely should be looked into further.

Sorry, I get really enthusiastic when I read articles like that. :D

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

obviously a bit of doubt when it comes to these things is useful, but the tendency some loyal Chomsky followers have to ignore any possible contrary evidence is a bit worrying

Obviously we shouldn't be too credulous - sometimes when you come up against something that seems unexpected and unexplainable, it turns out to be not what it appears at all. On the other hand, it's a complex world and ignoring contrary evidence is worse than being gullible. So we just keep learning what we can and trying to make a coherent picture of it. An open mind is the answer - but no so open that stuff falls out the holes.

Though I think Chomsky is onto something amazing, I doubt any one person could come up with the definitive answer. Perhaps he's just found the start of an answer.

Yes. I think he's found a key to the pattern of something that is so amazingly complex that it'll keep us guessing for a long time. Sort of like... we discover the atom and Einsteinian physics and then it turns out not to be the 'answer' but a whole new path towards the mysteries of quantum physics. It's real but it's huge, and defies understanding so far,and contradicts everything we knew. Which was also 'real'.

I can't help remembering that certain commonly-held thoughts on aberrant language uses turn out to be myths or a misunderstanding of the concepts, like the Hopi words concerning time and tense, or the however-many Inuit words for snow.

Yes, the Piraha counting thing is amazing. Whaet the helle?

I get really enthusiastic when I read articles like that.

So do I. I bounce and squee and then I look over my shoulder, thinking, "Wait, I should be all dignified and scholarly about this." I'm working on that 'dignified and scholarly' thing but I don't have it down pat yet.

[slartibartfast.livejournal.com]

It's real but it's huge, and defies understanding so far,and contradicts everything we knew. Which was also 'real'.

That sums up what I was trying to say quite nicely!

Oh it's so nice to find someone else interested in linguistics, I have to say. Especially over the summer period because obviously, studying linguistics as half of my degree, I meet people interested in it there but I don't have any contact with them at home.

I'm with you on the 'dignified and scholarly' thing. It's most embarrassing when we're going over something interesting in a lecture and I get all excited. XD

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

it's so nice to find someone else interested in linguistics, I have to say

Isn't it great? whenever something like this comes up, I have that lovely "I am not alone in my passion for this after all" feeling that is sometimes only too rare.

I just wish I knew more about it. I read what I can, but... so many books, so little time.

[idiotgrrl.livejournal.com]

One major thing - it came up on the discussion over on Ozarque's - is that one kid managed it and gave it up because he was ostracized by the others, which tells me that counting in that tribe has been socially defined as Something We Don't Do, and quite possibly Too Hard for Mortals, and Gee, Isn't he the biggest Egghead?

I mean it. The minute I read that part of the article I flashed on the undersized bespectacled high school physics major being bullied because s/he's a nerd and seen as a showoff and a teacher's pet (flash news - a lot of the teachers don't like nerds either!) and everything clicked into place.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

It makes you wonder again about the role socialization plays in perception and cognition. But really, if people are so socialized that fear of being seen as a nerd, or fear of becoming an outcast makes them so different as to change their nature conform - that would run contrary to my understanding of human nature too. Because in the world I see around me, most people aren't capable of changing their personality and skills to please either themselves or those around them.

But it's so hard to see ourselves as others see us - if there were an 'other' to do the seeing. As there is in the case of the Piraha.

I wonder how much of the divergence in approach to life is based on our inability to understand their language, more than their inability to understand our concepts.

[lauradi7.livejournal.com]

There's been extensive coverage of this in LanguageLog
Here's the search results page for piraha
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/moveabletype/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=2&search=piraha

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for the link! I can see I have some interesting reading ahead of me.

[isagel.livejournal.com]

This is why I love my friends list. I haven't had time to actually read anything on lj for a couple of weeks, then I scroll down my f-list, and the first thing that catches my eye is this. And it's so very amazing.

A reminder of how we should never take anything for granted, never assume that we know the truth of the world, because if we go out there and look, there will always be something waiting to be discovered and force us to re-examine everything we believed in. Paradigm shifts - it's what makes life worth livingl

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, isn't it fun when the good stuff crops up? this is why I'm so hooked on LJ - you don't know who is going to be talking about what, but there are so often really cool things I wouldn't otherwise stumble across.

And of course there's stuff I don't care about too, but it balances nicely.

I know how little we know of the universe and ourselves but it always astounds me to find the things that make us re-examine our assumptions, and poke again at what we thought we knew.

Nice icon you have there.

[toraks.livejournal.com]

Cool. Interesting.

I've never read Chomsky, but somehow I got the impression that his theories weren't necessarily widely accepted in academia. Maybe just who I've run into. Biases happen in academia as anywhere else, of course! Not my field at all though.

I have met Tecumseh, though. He came to give a talk in Tom's psych department and we went out to dinner with him. It was a while ago though. He's a really great guy, I remember being very impressed with him. He was fun too. Very charismatic and friendly. Probably also that he was American as am I. And we were in England at the time.

Anyway, nothing really coherent to add. :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I've never read Chomsky, but somehow I got the impression that his theories weren't necessarily widely accepted in academia. Maybe just who I've run into.

I haven't read Chomsky either. It was Pinker I read, and Pinker follows his ideas... I don't even know to what extent. I wish I had time to read up on this more. I too have heard anti-Chomsky arguments from people with linguistic backgrounds, but I don't know what the actual objections are - teh ones I heard didn't make much sense to me - whether they've found flaws in his conclusions, or whether it's reluctance to accept ideas that challenge the old paradigms, I don't know.

Neat that you've met Tecumseh! I am envious.

[toraks.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's all pretty complicated for people not in the field. It's one of those things I've heard argued, but just don't know enough about. But I have the bias of not believing Chomsky 100% for some reason.

It is neat to have met Tecumseh! I think it's cool to meet people who get written up about places that are different from the context that I originally know them from. But Tecumseh -- the name alone is memorable, but he was too. Nice guy. :-)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I try to handle things like the Chomsky debates simply by keeping an open mind. Pinker's ideas struck me as being valid - they reflect the world as I know it, not so much linguistically (where I am on shaky ground at best) but psychologically and neurologically. But I don't know the field or the arguments so I don't really have conclusions - I just treat life as a working hypothesis!

Tecumseh is a great name. In more ways that one! It sounds good, it's unusual, and it has a heroic historical resonance.

Thanks for the link. :)

[meret.livejournal.com]

Whorf argued that the words in our vocabulary determine how we think.

I've believed this for many years, but I didn't realize I was a neo-Whorfian. :) Based on reading I've done, I believe language determines how we think and vice versa. I also believe how we think shapes our brain development in terms of different areas of the brain being more active than others, more connections in those areas etc. It would never happen, but it would be *very* interesting to test one of those tribe members in a MRI machine while showing them pictures and asking questions etc.

One thing I would have loved is a recording of their language I could have listened to.

Re: Thanks for the link. :)

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I also believe how we think shapes our brain development in terms of different areas of the brain being more active than others, more connections in those areas etc.

This is easy for me to believe, as it fits in with the yoga notion of 'body-mind' and the way we can change our body-chemistry (and our neurochemistry) by cultivating certain thoughts and ideas.

One thing I would have loved is a recording of their language I could have listened to.

If they are as interesting and unusual as they seem, I predict we will be hearing more about them.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Or maybe it's more than that. Perhaps they have a deficiency of some sort of DNA, or an unusual chemical make-up that makes them see the world with unusual pragmatism.

Just as I was about to say that these people seem to have the purest method of communication that I have yet seen.

And I know you did not mean that as deprication.

"Uncontaminated," I'd call them.

Let's talk about this later...?

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Uncontaminated? Interesting choice of word.

[walkingowl.livejournal.com]

Just trying to be accurate.

In this month's Discover magazine, there is an article about a village in the Middle East whose population contains many deaf people (due to their isolation, and family inheritance of a certain gene), whose people have invented their own sign language. It truly is "uncontaminated," having arisen spontaneously without influence from other sign languages.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I'm still not sure how you're using the world. Do you see cross-cultural influence as a kind of contamination?